There is a lot of misconceptions on who or what is a protege. (it seems any WOMAN Prince talked to becomes a protege)

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I want anyone who replies, to reply only to the question. do not read anyone else's posts and try to address it, don't debate anything. Just share your opinion on what you think a protege or an associate artist is, and list people between 1991-2016, who you think fall under those 2 catagories.

OldFriends4Sale said:

A protege is someone who is studying a craft under another person that is typically older and more experienced and is being guided by that person's knowledge and expertise. Under that definition,who would be considered a protege would be narrowed to those such as Tamar,Andy Judith and Natalya who were already artists before meeting Prince and who he took under his wing and became a mentor to them. In interviews,Tamar and Andy describe him in that way. Judith was older when she began working with him but I'm sure she also learned quite a bit from him. Natalya is very gifted and seems to be almost prodigious in her musical talent so she may have been more of a collaborator with him and not necessarily on track to be the next protege.I would also consider a protege to be someone who allows their mentor to influence their style.Most of Prince's proteges let him make them over into his vision of them.

[Edited 5/21/18 7:57am]

pinkcashmere23 said:

A protege is someone who is studying a craft under another person that is typically older and more experienced and is being guided by that person's knowledge and expertise. Under that definition,who would be considered a protege would be narrowed to those such as Tamar,Andy Judith and Natalya who were already artists before meeting Prince and who he took under his wing and became a mentor to them. In interviews,Tamar and Andy describe him in that way. Judith was older when she began working with him but I'm sure she also learned quite a bit from him. Natalya is very gifted and seems to be almost prodigious in her musical talent so she may have been more of a collaborator with him and not necessarily on track to be the next protege.

SNIP - OF4$

littlemissG said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

There is a lot of misconceptions on who or what is a protege. (it seems any WOMAN Prince talked to becomes a protege)

.

.

I want anyone who replies, to reply only to the question. do not read anyone elses posts and try to address it, don't debate anything. Just share your opinion on what you think a protege or an associate artist is, and list people between 1991-2016, who you think fall under those 2 catagories.

The difference is a girlfriend he meet at a club that gets tossed into a video or two vs a protege who actually was pursuing a music career, that he actively tried to promote with an album and performing with him on tour. Mixed results abound, but he got better later in his career with Shelby, Liv, Andy, Judith, Bria and earlier with Ingrid. [Edited 5/21/18 6:31am]

SNIP - OF4$

I would define Prince "protegees" this way.

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1. The person completed at least one solo album (or album consisting of a small group assembled by Prince), with material shaped largely by Prince (i.e., he wrote, produced and played much of it).

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2. The person was basically unknown publicly as an artist prior to that.

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3. Prince worked with this person as a stand-alone artist for at least a year, including promoting them via live performances with (or set up by) Prince.

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Some example from 1991 on would include Carmen, Tamar, Bria and Andy. Judith Hill would probably be a "maybe" protegee, as she already did have some public awareness prior to her Prince association.

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Edited to add: Maybe I'd add another category called "Mentee" or something: later in his life there seemed to be another group of mostly young women performers who he apparently advised and encouraged but didn't really perform regularly with or craft entire albums for (at least not that's public). People like Delilah, Natalya, Kandace Springs, Lianne La Havas, etc.

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Associates might be a little different; they'd include a larger circle of professionals that Prince regularly brought in to help conceptualize or execute his own creative projects: his recordings, his live shows, his videos/movies, his "look." These people might be musicians, engineers, dancers, costume designers, hairstylists, etc., who don't fit the 3 "protegee" criteria above.

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I think most associates would've been Prince's employees, and would've been working with him a lot, for a significant length of time (like, 6 months or a year or more). For most associates with any public identity, I think they'd be known (at least during their time with Prince) in relation to Prince. Like, any public recognition of their name would be because "that's Prince's bass player/dancer/whatever."

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Post-1991 female associates might include Rosie Gaines, Candy Dulfer, Rhonda, the Twinz, Shelby, Liv, the 3rd Eye Girl members, Damaris -- basically anyone who was a regular performer in his live shows -- plus others whose jobs never required them to be public-facing, like Kim Berry. (Someone like Janelle Monae could be an associate, but her professional identity was pretty separate from Prince's even when she was opening for him.)

[Edited 5/22/18 7:04am]

FlyOnTheWall said:

pinkcashmere23 said:

A protege is someone who is studying a craft under another person that is typically older and more experienced and is being guided by that person's knowledge and expertise. Under that definition,who would be considered a protege would be narrowed to those such as Tamar,Andy Judith and Natalya who were already artists before meeting Prince and who he took under his wing and became a mentor to them. In interviews,Tamar and Andy describe him in that way. Judith was older when she began working with him but I'm sure she also learned quite a bit from him. Natalya is very gifted and seems to be almost prodigious in her musical talent so she may have been more of a collaborator with him and not necessarily on track to be the next protege.

I agree; however, I will reserve the Prince "collaborator" label for Natalya until I hear actual music that she and Prince recorded together. And, if it wasn't recorded at Paisley, then there should be confirmation that P was actually involved. Same thing with songwriting: Until I see confirmation that Prince co-wrote this or that song, I am taking such claims with a grain of salt.

FOTW Did I not say, do not debate with anyone?

FlyOnTheWall said:

littlemissG said:

OldFriends4Sale said: The difference is a girlfriend he meet at a club that gets tossed into a video or two vs a protege who actually was pursuing a music career, that he actively tried to promote with an album and performing with him on tour. Mixed results abound, but he got better later in his career with Shelby, Liv, Andy, Judith, Bria and earlier with Ingrid. [Edited 5/21/18 6:31am]

I concur. I also think dancers like Damaris, Maya, and Nandy are bona fide Prince associates. After all, they all toured with and shared the stage with him. Also, I think anyone who was a member of the NPG is a Prince associate, including Nik West.

I also consider MonoNeon a Prince associate/protege, arguably his final one, since he (along with Adrian Crutchfield and Kirk Johnson) was working on an album at Paisley Park that was nearing completion, if not completed. Before Prince's passing, there was already a single released on TIDAL.

[Edited 5/21/18 7:20am]

FOTW Did I not say 'female' associates?

FlyOnTheWall said:

pinkcashmere23 said:

A protege is someone who is studying a craft under another person that is typically older and more experienced and is being guided by that person's knowledge and expertise. Under that definition,who would be considered a protege would be narrowed to those such as Tamar,Andy Judith and Natalya who were already artists before meeting Prince and who he took under his wing and became a mentor to them. In interviews,Tamar and Andy describe him in that way. Judith was older when she began working with him but I'm sure she also learned quite a bit from him. Natalya is very gifted and seems to be almost prodigious in her musical talent so she may have been more of a collaborator with him and not necessarily on track to be the next protege.

SNIP - OF4$

SNIP - OF4$

OldFriends4Sale said:

FlyOnTheWall said:

I agree; however, I will reserve the Prince "collaborator" label for Natalya until I hear actual music that she and Prince recorded together. And, if it wasn't recorded at Paisley, then there should be confirmation that P was actually involved. Same thing with songwriting: Until I see confirmation that Prince co-wrote this or that song, I am taking such claims with a grain of salt.

FOTW Did I not say, do not debate with anyone?

Sorry. I didn't think I was "debating," OF4S. SNIP - OF4$

FlyOnTheWall said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

FOTW Did I not say, do not debate with anyone?

Sorry. I didn't think I was "debating," OF4S. SNIP - OF4$

Do Not Read Anyone Elses Post And Try To Addess It. Did you not read that? If you just read what I said and follow it, then you wouldn't have these issues. What does it mean when you see a red light?

pinkcashmere23 said:

FlyOnTheWall said:

SNIP - OF4$

SNIP - OF4$

SNIP - OF4$

OldFriends4Sale said:

FlyOnTheWall said:

Sorry. I didn't think I was "debating," OF4S. SNIP - OF4$

Do Not Read Anyone Elses Post And Try To Addess It. Did you not read that? If you just read what I said and follow it, then you wouldn't have these issues. What does it mean when you see a red light?

Ah.I had forgotten that you had said that.Sorry about that.

Associates would be, Cat, ShielaE, Jill, SheenaE and anybody associated with The Rev, NPG, 3rd Eyegirl, any band member even the males.

Protege to me would be Judith, Andy, Natalya, Damaris, Ingrid, Elisa, Janelle.

littlemissG said:

This thread made me think. The only male Prince protege was Tevin Campbell. When Prince made his deal with Warner Bros, they offered him artists to be developed under His Paisley Park label, but he refused them. Dollars to donuts they were male or not his type.

I'm creating a similar thread asking for info about male proteges and associates

Protege is something fans came up with, though. Maybe Prince referred to people like Vanity or The Time as proteges, but I've never read it.

Frankly, I'm glad that even on the Org these folks are listed as Associated Acts. That is what they are when trying to map out connections to Prince.

It would be easy if you just demoted everyone to puppet instead of protege. Prince wrote all the music, they sang the vocal track like he did, he rehearsed the acts (or at least oversaw them), picked their clothes, and basically pulled their strings.

Would Flyte Tyme or The Time have a career without any Prince input? Maybe. Would Vanity 6? Certainly not, nor Apollonia 6. The Family would have never happened at all because - while it was a great band and still are - they were remnants of something else, arguably a fashioned clap back to Morris leaving The Time. The first two track of The Family references things The Time might have referenced. "Mutiny" is a straight slap to Morris in title alone. Even the line "all the way vogue" in "High Fashion" and "Mutiny" hints at The Time wasn't all they could have been and The Family is taking the reigns of that in a different way.

Now, I don't want to demote any of these people to puppet status, actually. They are (mostly) talented people in their own right, whether they got a kickstart with Prince or not. Some are way more talented than others. Prince certainly didn't teach them to play instruments, but he surely challenged them to play better. He didn't teach them to sing (except maybe Apollonia) but he taught them to sing better. Prince also just wanted to release more music and finding an act he could do that through was more of these people being a tool for Prince, instead of a protege. He never rehearsed people who he gave songs to like Sheena Easton, The Bangles, etc. But he did rehearse the bands he controlled. He saw the opportunities to get music out, and if he more control over it then so be it. He had a larger vision for anyone who he took under his tutelage whether it was their personal success or the song's success. Who was doing it almost became irrelevant as long as the music got out there.

Some of his choices were less than stellar for acts he tried to produce. Bria was only slightly more talented than Apollonia. (Did Bria ever perform live anywhere with him?)

Tamar has a great voice but got lost in the cracks.

Sheila is talented but never wanted to be a singer. She kept going back behind the drums in her career (1987-1988) but now seems to think she's Prince reincarnated or something.

Jill Jones, in between her pockets of angry outbursts, had a sex voice and put out one of the best associated act records.

I won't list them all.

I will say I never saw Mayte as a protege. She worked for Prince. She was a friend to him, a dancer and muse, and eventually his first wife. Manuella was a fan he decided to marry. Big mistake.

I think of an "Associate" as one whose talents and experiences stand on thier own merit...they can be in the same room and looked upon as peers, but may or may not have worked directly with P...

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Similarly, a "Collaborator" has talents and experiences which not only can stand on thier own merit, but have positioned them to actually work with P as an equal/peer...

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More often than not the term "Protege" is a sly way of implying a relationship that is suspected to include "hanky-panky"...regardless of the talent of the participant, but often implying that any non-sexual talents are "modest" at best and nonexistant at worst...I think "Mentees" often get unfairly lumped into this category when in fact P went out of his way to mentor certain artists...Only he knew whether a "Mentee" was being groomed to eventually become a "Protege"...

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A "Muse" inspires the artist and the art, whether from near or afar...and a muse could potentially become a protege if she'd only cooperate...meaning (1 either not already be otherwise "involved" or (2 attracted on a mutual level...

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One would think the lines were pretty clear, but the Purple Venn Diagram shows many category overlaps...Heck, even with actual girlfriends...After all, there are some gals who would categorize themselves as P's "girlfriends", when time has proven that they were merely booty calls/drivebys/jumpoffs/other...

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It's a grey area left up to interpretation...

I see an associate as someone who may have worked with Prince in the past, and may have had their own succuessful career prior to, but definitely after working with Prince. For example, Sheila E, would be an associate. I also think of associates as individuals that may be tied to Prince in some way, but did not work with him directly - ie Tamron Hall. In the Prince community, we know that Tamron Hall and Prince were friends, that they spoke on the phone frequently, he gave her fashion advice. She has her own career, her own following, is not a musician, but is associated to Prince through their friendship.

A protege is someone who did not have a career prior to Prince, but were guided by Prince, taught by him, and promoted by him. A protege example would be Tamar Davis. A protege may or may not go on to have a career following their time with Prince.

[Edited 5/22/18 11:21am]

The 1980s were definately the epitome of the Prince proteges, but who were the proteges of the 1990s?

in 1990 I know of Carmen Electra, Robin Power (and the Uptown Dames)

I guess Mayte would be considered more of an associate than a protege though she did an album with him.

(i'm responding to you directly, OF4S. hope that's ok )

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The 90s (at least the mid-90s on) were a fallow period for what we would call "protegees" (acts he tried to push out under their own name).

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I suspect one reason is: his marriage. The reality is, it's hard to de-tangle his protegees from his bedmates. So his marriage maybe made him take a different tact.

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Another reason, I think, was his warner brothers war and the demise of the Paisley Park label. There might have been no practical outlet for him to launch protegees in the way he wanted to.

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He also didn't really have a huge track record of chart/sales success with his previous protegees. Maybe his interest flagged after he lost millions with Carmen? And he no longer had a major label willing to finance his flights of fancy with these ladies?

OldFriends4Sale said:

The 1980s were definately the epitome of the Prince proteges, but who were the proteges of the 1990s?

in 1990 I know of Carmen Electra, Robin Power (and the Uptown Dames)

[Edited 5/22/18 14:10pm]

SNIP - WTF!! - OF4$

Robin Power

Elisa Fiorello

Carmen Electra

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Nona Gaye

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how about other dancers besides Mayte?

Dancers

Cat

Lori Elle (Diamond)

Robia Lamorte (Pearl)

Geneva

Rave dancer?

The Twinz

Misty Copeland

Damaris Lewis

I wouldn't really classify dancers as protegees (they'd be associates) -- he didn't try to launch their career by masterminding their own stand-alone projects under their own name, which to me is what separates his protegees. Dancers like The Twinz would be in that Associate pool, I think.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Robin Power

Elisa Fiorello

Carmen Electra

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Nona Gaye

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how about other dancers besides Mayte?

OldFriends4Sale said: