I'd be interested to hear your opinions on this.

lonelyalien said:

I'd be interested to hear your opinions on this.

My vote is Wendy Melvoin.

easily matt fink, easily, there is a reason he was kept around. I used to believe what the critics used to say about the revolution, which was that they weren't that good as a whole. But listening to more of their stuff, nah, they were damned good. Maybe not as good as the people he worked with later, when he could hire anyone he wanted, but they were damned good and they had that elusive type of chemistry that artistic peaks are made of.

Moving to Associated

PeteSilas said:

easily matt fink, easily, there is a reason he was kept around. I used to believe what the critics used to say about the revolution, which was that they weren't that good as a whole. But listening to more of their stuff, nah, they were damned good. Maybe not as good as the people he worked with later, when he could hire anyone he wanted, but they were damned good and they had that elusive type of chemistry that artistic peaks are made of.

Exactly right regarding the band's talent as a whole. Also, when you think of how young they all were - late teens to early 20's - their talent is even more justified.

Regarding the best musician, I think Lisa in terms of technical ability. Matt's stated that she taught him some things.

Not being difficult just for the sake of it but it depends on how you define these things. Based on what i've heard from live stuff and even just them talking, Fink could play more notes per second without breaking a sweat than either Prince or Lisa, does he win there as a result? Wendy is well known as being limited in her solo-ing and even to an extent her funk chops, but has a beautifully expressive way of playing that shines through even on the solo W&L stuff. I'd sooner pick out her rhythm guitar playing on a track than pretty much every guitarist Prince hired after her.

If I had to, and I never thought about this before because they functioned as a unit, I would pick Lisa Coleman

jaawwnn said:

Not being difficult just for the sake of it but it depends on how you define these things. Based on what i've heard from live stuff and even just them talking, Fink could play more notes per second without breaking a sweat than either Prince or Lisa, does he win there as a result? Wendy is well known as being limited in her solo-ing and even to an extent her funk chops, but has a beautifully expressive way of playing that shines through even on the solo W&L stuff. I'd sooner pick out her rhythm guitar playing on a track than pretty much every guitarist Prince hired after her.

I hear ya, but Lisa could play amazing chords that Fink could not. I think Matt was great for the very "synthie" punk sound that was big w/ Prince's music on Controversy and Dirty Mind (ie: Head). Not that he couldn't play other styles. But, Lisa had that more complex sound going - using 4 fingers at once to create a deeper sound. For Wendy, gonna have to disagree with you on her "funk" chops!! Have you heard the "Soulpsychodelicide" rehearsal? If not, you have to get that. She wails on this amazingly funky "chicken grease" line that sounds sooooo great with the rest of the band playing. Right after she starts, you can hear one of the Revolution backup dancers say, "that's funky Wendy, that's funky!!" I LOVE that rehearsal. Even Questlove has touted her as the "heir apparent to Jimmie "Chank" Nolen. She's definitely the Queen of the deeper chords too, but I think she's also very funky.

Hmmm, good question. I'm not sure about in the '83 - '87 time frame but based on what I saw at the Revolution's show last summer, I'd go with Brown Mark. He was really exceptional.

it has been said that the lineup of dez/prince/andre was better than the revolution, definitely more masculine aggressiveness there, someone, forget who offhand, mighta been dez said that it was a more powerful band. I'd say average length for many rock bands is about 3 years, that seems about what most incarnations of princes bands were.

PeteSilas said:

it has been said that the lineup of dez/prince/andre was better than the revolution, definitely more masculine aggressiveness there, someone, forget who offhand, mighta been dez said that it was a more powerful band. I'd say average length for many rock bands is about 3 years, that seems about what most incarnations of princes bands were.

I think that had more to do with (what Dez liked) as a band. He didn't like that Prince was getting into more theatrics. I just liked the straight band rendition. By Controversy Prince had started getting into more stuff like acting out parts of Annie Christian, he started getting more into the 'showmanship' which increased on the 1999 period (Dez also felt Vanity(6) was a distraction to what you mentioned above) And he said he knew the Purple Rain tour would be like what it was and he didn't care for that extra stuff. But of course Prince wanted to do other stuff than be the rock guitar god all the time.

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I did like it when Prince had that core band focus. Let's Go Crazy, Computer Blue, America(Nice France) etc Tempation( 1985 rehearsal) had that 'masculine aggressiveness. I think it is that kind of 'focus' that makes the band feel powerful. I LOVE the Parade tour, but I always wonder what it would have been like if it didn't have as much happening. If the Family didn't break, Miko would have still been the lead guitarist for the Family, and Prince would have been on his guitar more for Parade

.

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The 1983 Dance Benefit show was a powerful lineup and show, and the 1984 Birthday show. The 1985 show was interesting, but it had a lot happening, a mix of the Revolution, Sheila E and the Family. I would have loved a 1985 Birthday show that exhibited ATWIAD and music that flowed with it.

.

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That is also why I need/we need a full set of the Nice, France 1985 rehearsal and show

[Edited 4/27/18 12:45pm]

OldFriends4Sale said:

PeteSilas said:

it has been said that the lineup of dez/prince/andre was better than the revolution, definitely more masculine aggressiveness there, someone, forget who offhand, mighta been dez said that it was a more powerful band. I'd say average length for many rock bands is about 3 years, that seems about what most incarnations of princes bands were.

I think that had more to do with (what Dez liked) as a band. He didn't like that Prince was getting into more theatrics. I just liked the straight band rendition. By Controversy Prince had started getting into more stuff like acting out parts of Annie Christian, he started getting more into the 'showmanship' which increased on the 1999 period (Dez also felt Vanity(6) was a distraction to what you mentioned above) And he said he knew the Purple Rain tour would be like what it was and he didn't care for that extra stuff.

all the issues of most bands, but prince was by and large a solo artist at least in terms of raw power, he was the boss, like springsteen or elvis was. there are always people who think they know a better way to do things, you can't listen to all of them. I'm talking from what i've seen in any work relationship, there are the loafers, the hypercompetent, everyone has ideas they think'll work better than the boss' and there is always jealousy, backstabbing and competiveness. So it was with the revolution, that's probably all forgotten since the revolution reunion but it was there. I recall Brown Mark complaining about the lord's prayer in controversy and I think Dez had issues with the sex lyrics and young kids in the audience. But Prince was the boss, those guys left, had 30 years to do it like they wanted and they failed.

PeteSilas said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I think that had more to do with (what Dez liked) as a band. He didn't like that Prince was getting into more theatrics. I just liked the straight band rendition. By Controversy Prince had started getting into more stuff like acting out parts of Annie Christian, he started getting more into the 'showmanship' which increased on the 1999 period (Dez also felt Vanity(6) was a distraction to what you mentioned above) And he said he knew the Purple Rain tour would be like what it was and he didn't care for that extra stuff.

all the issues of most bands, but prince was by and large a solo artist at least in terms of raw power, he was the boss, like springsteen or elvis was. there are always people who think they know a better way to do things, you can't listen to all of them. I'm talking from what i've seen in any work relationship, there are the loafers, the hypercompetent, everyone has ideas they think'll work better than the boss' and there is always jealousy, backstabbing and competiveness. So it was with the revolution, that's probably all forgotten since the revolution reunion but it was there. I recall Brown Mark complaining about the lord's prayer in controversy and I think Dez had issues with the sex lyrics and young kids in the audience. But Prince was the boss, those guys left, had 30 years to do it like they wanted and they failed.

Sorry, I was editing while you were replying

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Yeah, I think even with Prince there was trial and error. As a fan, there were some things that didn't move me, like when Diamonds & Pearls were in the band. I think I prefered less attention to the dancers in general. Even, a lot of 'acting out the song' with Mayte etc I loved Cat.

There was issue with the gun Prince used during Annie Christian that he pulled from the show.
The Our Father section, I can see someone being uncomfortable, I don't know if it was too much an issue. Dez actually wanting Prince to cut back on certain types of songs, definately wasn't going to work. But kids in the audience did affect Prince a little later, and affect him pulling the Black album.

Lisa

OldFriends4Sale said:

PeteSilas said:

it has been said that the lineup of dez/prince/andre was better than the revolution, definitely more masculine aggressiveness there, someone, forget who offhand, mighta been dez said that it was a more powerful band. I'd say average length for many rock bands is about 3 years, that seems about what most incarnations of princes bands were.

I think that had more to do with (what Dez liked) as a band. He didn't like that Prince was getting into more theatrics. I just liked the straight band rendition. By Controversy Prince had started getting into more stuff like acting out parts of Annie Christian, he started getting more into the 'showmanship' which increased on the 1999 period (Dez also felt Vanity(6) was a distraction to what you mentioned above) And he said he knew the Purple Rain tour would be like what it was and he didn't care for that extra stuff. But of course Prince wanted to do other stuff than be the rock guitar god all the time.

.

.

I did like it when Prince had that core band focus. Let's Go Crazy, Computer Blue, America(Nice France) etc Tempation( 1985 rehearsal) had that 'masculine aggressiveness. I think it is that kind of 'focus' that makes the band feel powerful. I LOVE the Parade tour, but I always wonder what it would have been like if it didn't have as much happening. If the Family didn't break, Miko would have still been the lead guitarist for the Family, and Prince would have been on his guitar more for Parade

.

.

The 1983 Dance Benefit show was a powerful lineup and show, and the 1984 Birthday show. The 1985 show was interesting, but it had a lot happening, a mix of the Revolution, Sheila E and the Family. I would have loved a 1985 Birthday show that exhibited ATWIAD and music that flowed with it.

.

.

That is also why I need/we need a full set of the Nice, France 1985 rehearsal and show

[Edited 4/27/18 12:45pm]

Wait......!!!! Are you implying that you have SEEN (and not just heard) the 1984 birhday show???? And the 1985 show??? If so, I am madly envious. Please, do tell! The 1983 show is one of my favs. I agree with all of your opinions. Loved Parade tour, but it was so busy on stage, and not enough of Prince on his guitar.

My opinion has always been that chemistry is more important than real skill. Elvis, when his two bandmates left him was depressed and he was told that they weren't all that good and that musicians were a dime a dozen, he found out that he really didn't need those guys but..., the music that most people associate with Elvis in his prime, most of that was with those redneck guys from memphis, not the session musicians who could outplay pretty much anyone on earth. Mistakes and primitive audio equipement be damned, feel and chemistry can trump all of it.

violetcrush said:

jaawwnn said:

violetcrush said:

I hear ya, but Lisa could play amazing chords that Fink could not. I think Matt was great for the very "synthie" punk sound that was big w/ Prince's music on Controversy and Dirty Mind (ie: Head). Not that he couldn't play other styles. But, Lisa had that more complex sound going - using 4 fingers at once to create a deeper sound. For Wendy, gonna have to disagree with you on her "funk" chops!! Have you heard the "Soulpsychodelicide" rehearsal? If not, you have to get that. She wails on this amazingly funky "chicken grease" line that sounds sooooo great with the rest of the band playing. Right after she starts, you can hear one of the Revolution backup dancers say, "that's funky Wendy, that's funky!!" I LOVE that rehearsal. Even Questlove has touted her as the "heir apparent to Jimmie "Chank" Nolen. She's definitely the Queen of the deeper chords too, but I think she's also very funky.

This is kinda my point, Lisa and Matt are so different that its hard to compare. Re:Wendy I'd be with you arguing for her but I've been here long enough to know there would BE an argument about it!

i used to think lisa couldn't play all that well and that's why she didn't solo but i've heard some of the shows from around the time before they broke up, sounds pretty good to me on her solos, unless that's matt.

jaawwnn said:

violetcrush said:

I hear ya, but Lisa could play amazing chords that Fink could not. I think Matt was great for the very "synthie" punk sound that was big w/ Prince's music on Controversy and Dirty Mind (ie: Head). Not that he couldn't play other styles. But, Lisa had that more complex sound going - using 4 fingers at once to create a deeper sound. For Wendy, gonna have to disagree with you on her "funk" chops!! Have you heard the "Soulpsychodelicide" rehearsal? If not, you have to get that. She wails on this amazingly funky "chicken grease" line that sounds sooooo great with the rest of the band playing. Right after she starts, you can hear one of the Revolution backup dancers say, "that's funky Wendy, that's funky!!" I LOVE that rehearsal. Even Questlove has touted her as the "heir apparent to Jimmie "Chank" Nolen. She's definitely the Queen of the deeper chords too, but I think she's also very funky.

This is kinda my point, Lisa and Matt are so different that its hard to compare. Re:Wendy I'd be with you arguing for her but I've been here long enough to know there would BE an argument about it!

Yes, I agree with that - can't compare Matt and Lisa, which is why I think they worked so well with the band. Both contributing unique sounds and playing styles. Re: Wendy - you mean others chiming in with differing opinions?

if what we've heard about wendy and lisa (I was never 100 percent convinced) they contributed way more on the creative side of things with Prince than anyone did. I never did believe the crap that they showed the idiotsavant the wonders of the beatles and all that, never believed that. Hell, I only found out that this inner city black kid was a huge fleetwood mac fan in from early on, why would it be so hard to believe he wasn't familiar with the beatles and he was telling dez when they worked together that he wanted to be "a black rolling stones" bandwise, he knew his history.

PeteSilas said:

jaawwnn said:

violetcrush said: This is kinda my point, Lisa and Matt are so different that its hard to compare. Re:Wendy I'd be with you arguing for her but I've been here long enough to know there would BE an argument about it!

i used to think lisa couldn't play all that well and that's why she didn't solo but i've heard some of the shows from around the time before they broke up, sounds pretty good to me on her solos, unless that's matt.

No, those solos are Lisa. Prince loved how she played. During his second to last P&M show in Atlanta he talks to the crowd about how they met, and how she played. He started to play and said, "I'm trying to play like her". They re-released the W&L Eroica album recently, and they included two piano solos that she wrote called MN 1 and MN 2. She had written those before the Revolution disbanded. Also, she had a great solo on Little Red Corvette during the PR tour.

PeteSilas said:

My opinion has always been that chemistry is more important than real skill. Elvis, when his two bandmates left him was depressed and he was told that they weren't all that good and that musicians were a dime a dozen, he found out that he really didn't need those guys but..., the music that most people associate with Elvis in his prime, most of that was with those redneck guys from memphis, not the session musicians who could outplay pretty much anyone on earth. Mistakes and primitive audio equipement be damned, feel and chemistry can trump all of it.

So funny that you say that, because I just watched an Elvis documentary where they showed his "comeback" TV special when he played live, and they brought those guys back to play with him, and they just improvised. He looked so happy on that footage. They said it was a success, and he was relevant again with music after doing all of those campy movies.

violetcrush said:

PeteSilas said:

My opinion has always been that chemistry is more important than real skill. Elvis, when his two bandmates left him was depressed and he was told that they weren't all that good and that musicians were a dime a dozen, he found out that he really didn't need those guys but..., the music that most people associate with Elvis in his prime, most of that was with those redneck guys from memphis, not the session musicians who could outplay pretty much anyone on earth. Mistakes and primitive audio equipement be damned, feel and chemistry can trump all of it.

So funny that you say that, because I just watched an Elvis documentary where they showed his "comeback" TV special when he played live, and they brought those guys back to play with him, and they just improvised. He looked so happy on that footage. They said it was a success, and he was relevant again with music after doing all of those campy movies.

that was arguably his finest moment, unfortunately the bassist from the fifties was dead by that point of a brain hemorage. they said a vhs of that show was found in prince's belongings after he died, i thought that he and i had that in common, it's always something i come back to, that 68 special.

PeteSilas said:

if what we've heard about wendy and lisa (I was never 100 percent convinced) they contributed way more on the creative side of things with Prince than anyone did. I never did believe the crap that they showed the idiotsavant the wonders of the beatles and all that, never believed that. Hell, I only found out that this inner city black kid was a huge fleetwood mac fan in from early on, why would it be so hard to believe he wasn't familiar with the beatles and he was telling dez when they worked together that he wanted to be "a black rolling stones" bandwise, he knew his history.

I don't think they ever stated that they introduced him to the Beatles - I think any statements like that came from the infamous media/music journalists. In Alan Light's book, Wendy did say that she thought Prince hated the Beatles music, because he was only referencing their more "be-bop" songs and not the deeper tracks, but she never said they introduced him to their music. As a matter of fact, during the interview Toure just did with Susannah, he eludes to this yet again when talking about ATWIAD, and she stopped him and very clearly clarified that Prince knew the Beatles music, and it was not an influence on him for the album. She also clarified that the song ATWIAD was originally written and recorded by David Coleman and Jonathon Melvoin with W, L, and S also playing and singing backrounds. They played Prince the tape, and he loved it. He asked if he could have it, and then used it as the basis for the direction of the album.

violetcrush said:

PeteSilas said:

if what we've heard about wendy and lisa (I was never 100 percent convinced) they contributed way more on the creative side of things with Prince than anyone did. I never did believe the crap that they showed the idiotsavant the wonders of the beatles and all that, never believed that. Hell, I only found out that this inner city black kid was a huge fleetwood mac fan in from early on, why would it be so hard to believe he wasn't familiar with the beatles and he was telling dez when they worked together that he wanted to be "a black rolling stones" bandwise, he knew his history.

I don't think they ever stated that they introduced him to the Beatles - I think any statements like that came from the infamous media/music journalists. In Alan Light's book, Wendy did say that she thought Prince hated the Beatles music, because he was only referencing their more "be-bop" songs and not the deeper tracks, but she never said they introduced him to their music. As a matter of fact, during the interview Toure just did with Susannah, he eludes to this yet again when talking about ATWIAD, and she stopped him and very clearly clarified that Prince knew the Beatles music, and it was not an influence on him for the album. She also clarified that the song ATWIAD was originally written and recorded by David Coleman and Jonathon Melvoin with W, L, and S also playing and singing backrounds. They played Prince the tape, and he loved it. He asked if he could have it, and then used it as the basis for the direction of the album.

the story is that they brought him sgt. peppers, people brought him ellington, etc.., as if he was too stupid to find the shit himself. I think it's a little insulting really.

PeteSilas said:

violetcrush said:

So funny that you say that, because I just watched an Elvis documentary where they showed his "comeback" TV special when he played live, and they brought those guys back to play with him, and they just improvised. He looked so happy on that footage. They said it was a success, and he was relevant again with music after doing all of those campy movies.

that was arguably his finest moment, unfortunately the bassist from the fifties was dead by that point of a brain hemorage. they said a vhs of that show was found in prince's belongings after he died, i thought that he and i had that in common, it's always something i come back to, that 68 special.

Oh I didn't know that about the bassist - very sad. Great that Prince had that tape too. I'm sure he had all of the classics from 1950 onward

Lisa.

PeteSilas said:

violetcrush said:

I don't think they ever stated that they introduced him to the Beatles - I think any statements like that came from the infamous media/music journalists. In Alan Light's book, Wendy did say that she thought Prince hated the Beatles music, because he was only referencing their more "be-bop" songs and not the deeper tracks, but she never said they introduced him to their music. As a matter of fact, during the interview Toure just did with Susannah, he eludes to this yet again when talking about ATWIAD, and she stopped him and very clearly clarified that Prince knew the Beatles music, and it was not an influence on him for the album. She also clarified that the song ATWIAD was originally written and recorded by David Coleman and Jonathon Melvoin with W, L, and S also playing and singing backrounds. They played Prince the tape, and he loved it. He asked if he could have it, and then used it as the basis for the direction of the album.

the story is that they brought him sgt. peppers, people brought him ellington, etc.., as if he was too stupid to find the shit himself. I think it's a little insulting really.

Well, actually - there is a documentary (maybe the BBC Purple Reign story?) where one of the Rolling Stone journalists stated that in either 1984 or 1985 (can't remember which year he gave) Prince called him and requested he send him all of the issues they have on the Beatles. This would also be the time frame that Wendy and Lisa's influence was becoming stronger. It's very possible that Prince was familiar with their early work, but not the later years. Prince was familiar with Fleetwood and Joni because they payed that music on his local stations. If they weren't playing the Beatles on his local stations he may not have been turned on to them. He and other people have said that if they wanted to hear James Brown and the funk music they had to buy the records at the store, because they weren't playing them on the local MN stations.

PeteSilas said:

violetcrush said:

I don't think they ever stated that they introduced him to the Beatles - I think any statements like that came from the infamous media/music journalists. In Alan Light's book, Wendy did say that she thought Prince hated the Beatles music, because he was only referencing their more "be-bop" songs and not the deeper tracks, but she never said they introduced him to their music. As a matter of fact, during the interview Toure just did with Susannah, he eludes to this yet again when talking about ATWIAD, and she stopped him and very clearly clarified that Prince knew the Beatles music, and it was not an influence on him for the album. She also clarified that the song ATWIAD was originally written and recorded by David Coleman and Jonathon Melvoin with W, L, and S also playing and singing backrounds. They played Prince the tape, and he loved it. He asked if he could have it, and then used it as the basis for the direction of the album.

the story is that they brought him sgt. peppers, people brought him ellington, etc.., as if he was too stupid to find the shit himself. I think it's a little insulting really.

Even Prince himself said in an interview that he didn't get the Beatles. So if someone did open up the music to him via their ears, that is possible.

It is definately possible to know of an artist, hear their songs but not 'HEAR' them. And sometimes it is 1 album that wakes people up.
Bobby Z said he got Prince to listen to Sgt Pepper. Why would he lie? And remember Bobby Z was with Prince pre-For You. Bobby Z was drumming for Prince 1977 for 94East. Prince was only 19 in 1977. Look at Prince's life leading up to his record deal. He was bounced from home to home, back in forth between parents, he had a lot on his plate while trying to make it. So hearing every album and artist that was popular was probably not a huge priority.

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A coworker of mine gave me some music by a new artist Robert Francis. I listened to it a few times, it was interesting, but it just did not spark me at all. I remember about 6-7 months later, I was dealing with a break up and some other things and decided to go on a road trip West in NY. I decided to put the album on again, and that is when I HEARD it. I heard it up and down back in front inside outside, the colors of the world look different, I was able to piece together what I was going through. And from that moment on I HEARD Robert Francis. And I heard every album he put out ever since.
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How many people have you heard say they were not into Prince or didn't get him. Even though they knew and heard his music? I've 'converted' or 'enlightened' a lot of people.

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Eric Leeds was deeply into Jazz, so for a jazz man to unfold jazz to someone who listened to jazz or know of jazz artists, doesn't slight Prince at all.
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We look at Prince via god like status. He didn't look back, he evaded time, he could play 21 instruments(your heard that story too right?) etc Prince was still human. No one person is that deep that they cannot learn from others while teaching others.