Vashtix said:

Thanks what a cute little fox she is.

anangellooksdown said:

Wow! Ok wow! Then that is fresh and even with the impact of purple rain
She still seems settled with,she did the right thing to leave or the thing God
Told her was right, and I sense no regret. Wow!! What fortitude!

purplefam99 said:

Vashtix said:

Another pic of older Vanity because the one posted in the video is so matronly.

Thanks what a cute little fox she is.

Vashtix said:

I like how she calls her meeting a Cinderella story; that seems to be a theme used by many protoges of Prince.

.

She also mentions the real Prince. I get the feeling many never had the opportunity to see the real Prince . He seems to have been a true chameleon.

[Edited 9/9/17 8:16am]

I wonder how many times she had been ask that question and how many ways different ways she has answered it.

Denise would often tell me the same story more than just a few times.

It was not that I just found it easier to let her finish than to interrupt her, or that out of concern I was always analyzing her mental and physical health. I simply enjoyed her storytelling. It was familiar, comforting… she reminded me so much of DeBorah. Sometimes too much; those who knew them both might have some idea of what I mean. In fact Prince spent more time with both Debbie and Denise together then I ever did. I’m certain he observed their identical (twin) quirks, mannerisms and physical similarities; at times sitting in for Vanity, though Debbie is 6 inches taller.

.

Denise writes about how they met a number of different ways and there are a few newspaper interviews from back in the earlier 80’s that tell a completely different story.

Reading one version of her narrative and then another is kind of like listening to her telling me the same story again. She always adds some extra detail left out of a prior telling.

.

Cinderella and The Wizard of Oz is just two of the comparisons she often makes regarding their meeting. Their long on off, love hate history she refers to as one of the Great Romances, like Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor.

.

Over the years our conversations never dulled and always varied depending upon the task at hand, with me coming over specifically to fix or help something or just hanging out cooking, listening to music, dancing around the entire apartment or watching TV.

Except for our talking about her cats, sweet potato pie and opening up a bakery, most of our conversations had a spiritual and a scientific theme as to why things were as they were in the world. Denise would share a spiritual message with me, she would often take my hand as I was driving and she would pray for miles, but she never preached at me.

I am certain she didn’t understand everything on my thoughts or theory of gravity, most don’t. But she understood and agreed that man’s lack of understanding of gravity ultimately has the world powers warring over oil in ancient biblical lands, making them significant, which has us headed towards the Times of the End.

.

The point being is that she listened. Denise paid close attention to my science and my poetry, and would later show me that she had been listening closer than I knew.

She being so much like Debbie, and knowing the Denise I spent so much day to day mundane time with, I’m certain with all the time they spent that she truly knew a Prince.

luvgirl said:

Vashtix said:

No , they dated , per info from TOB he went after her and did not let on he had girlfriends in Minneapoplis. He gave good info in this thread http://prince.org/msg/5/4...&pg=3.

He gives even more insight; he shared Prince studied her due her having an extensive resume and of course looks. He knew what he was doing when he met her.

He had to persuade her jump in and somehow she fell for him, she fell in love.

Yes, that was an interesting perspective from TOB point of view. He thought that it was likely that Prince knew of her beforehand. I'm not confused as to if they dated in the beginning before she moved to Minneapolis. I know that they did date. She's written about it as well as said that they did in many different interviews. I meant when Prince was pursuing her in the first few days or so. She said he kept calling and pursued her until she dated him and I also thought I heard her say that she wasn't interested in him at first in those first few days but I'm not sure. EDIT TO ADD: It was at the 1:17 mark. Can you make out what she said?

[Edited 9/10/17 12:53pm]

When you factor in that he had been working on the formation of a sexy all girl group, that he wanted to make a movie before he met her, and that he had women back home while he romanced/pursed/stalked her, it is hard to call it dating.

However, it is evident that his initial intent had at some point been altered under her musing influence.

What she did to cause it, what about her influenced, moved and mused him, and then when did his intent change is the question. Also, to what degree did he change before he discovered her plan to leave?

Toban said:

Vashtix said:

I like how she calls her meeting a Cinderella story; that seems to be a theme used by many protoges of Prince.

.

She also mentions the real Prince. I get the feeling many never had the opportunity to see the real Prince . He seems to have been a true chameleon.

[Edited 9/9/17 8:16am]

I wonder how many times she had been ask that question and how many ways different ways she has answered it.

Denise would often tell me the same story more than just a few times.

It was not that I just found it easier to let her finish than to interrupt her, or that out of concern I was always analyzing her mental and physical health. I simply enjoyed her storytelling. It was familiar, comforting… she reminded me so much of DeBorah. Sometimes too much; those who knew them both might have some idea of what I mean. In fact Prince spent more time with both Debbie and Denise together then I ever did. I’m certain he observed their identical (twin) quirks, mannerisms and physical similarities; at times sitting in for Vanity, though Debbie is 6 inches taller.

.

Denise writes about how they met a number of different ways and there are a few newspaper interviews from back in the earlier 80’s that tell a completely different story.

Reading one version of her narrative and then another is kind of like listening to her telling me the same story again. She always adds some extra detail left out of a prior telling.

.

Cinderella and The Wizard of Oz is just two of the comparisons she often makes regarding their meeting. Their long on off, love hate history she refers to as one of the Great Romances, like Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor.

.

Over the years our conversations never dulled and always varied depending upon the task at hand, with me coming over specifically to fix or help something or just hanging out cooking, listening to music, dancing around the entire apartment or watching TV.

Except for our talking about her cats, sweet potato pie and opening up a bakery, most of our conversations had a spiritual and a scientific theme as to why things were as they were in the world. Denise would share a spiritual message with me, she would often take my hand as I was driving and she would pray for miles, but she never preached at me.

I am certain she didn’t understand everything on my thoughts or theory of gravity, most don’t. But she understood and agreed that man’s lack of understanding of gravity ultimately has the world powers warring over oil in ancient biblical lands, making them significant, which has us headed towards the Times of the End.

.

The point being is that she listened. Denise paid close attention to my science and my poetry, and would later show me that she had been listening closer than I knew.

She being so much like Debbie, and knowing the Denise I spent so much day to day mundane time with, I’m certain with all the time they spent that she truly knew a Prince.

Thank you for sharing your time and experiences with Denise. She was truly a special lady. Also thank you for shedding light on what her friendship/ companionship with Prince might have been like through that perspective.

Toban said:

luvgirl said:

Yes, that was an interesting perspective from TOB point of view. He thought that it was likely that Prince knew of her beforehand. I'm not confused as to if they dated in the beginning before she moved to Minneapolis. I know that they did date. She's written about it as well as said that they did in many different interviews. I meant when Prince was pursuing her in the first few days or so. She said he kept calling and pursued her until she dated him and I also thought I heard her say that she wasn't interested in him at first in those first few days but I'm not sure. EDIT TO ADD: It was at the 1:17 mark. Can you make out what she said?

[Edited 9/10/17 12:53pm]

When you factor in that he had been working on the formation of a sexy all girl group, that he wanted to make a movie before he met her, and that he had women back home while he romanced/pursed/stalked her, it is hard to call it dating.

However, it is evident that his initial intent had at some point been altered under her musing influence.

What she did to cause it, what about her influenced, moved and mused him, and then when did his intent change is the question. Also, to what degree did he change before he discovered her plan to leave?

It sounds like he first had the vision of the girl group and the movie, and his intent was to find the right person to fit and cast as the leading woman into these projects. You said in an earlier post, that he must've done his homework, so do you think the meeting at the AMAs was pre-planned, orchestrated? Did Denise allude to that with you or in her writings?

.

She was already in love with him when she went out to MPLS, so I also wonder when and what changed the dynamics on his side? Because when she left, she left him and these two projects hanging. Also based on different things I've read, he was upset/ heartbroken by her departure.

purplefam99 said:

Vashtix said:

Denise/Vanity was refreshing because she was not playing coy at all- she was honest and real about him. There is another interview floating around when she admitted he wanted her to write more about him in her book but she did not do it. Their friendship lasted for decades and I think she was his equal and person who lived life similar to him in sensibilities of the heart, soul and mind.

*

I will always believe her death rocked him because she was one of the few real people in his life and seeing a friend and contemporary die has to make you look at your own mortality different

His tribute to her when she died and afterward said all I needed to know of how special and dear their friendship was to him. It outlasted bands, girlfriends, sidepieces and wives.

I do agree with you, I feel she said no to him more than anyone and that is why Their friendship lasted she wasn't afraid to say no. And I think when she dropped All things Vanity that was the moment he envied her the most, possibly. Because she freely said no more, and I think he highly admired that, and wanted that liberation to a degree. My feeling. [Edited 9/13/17 20:12pm]

Toban said:

luvgirl said:

Yes, that was an interesting perspective from TOB point of view. He thought that it was likely that Prince knew of her beforehand. I'm not confused as to if they dated in the beginning before she moved to Minneapolis. I know that they did date. She's written about it as well as said that they did in many different interviews. I meant when Prince was pursuing her in the first few days or so. She said he kept calling and pursued her until she dated him and I also thought I heard her say that she wasn't interested in him at first in those first few days but I'm not sure. EDIT TO ADD: It was at the 1:17 mark. Can you make out what she said?

[Edited 9/10/17 12:53pm]

When you factor in that he had been working on the formation of a sexy all girl group, that he wanted to make a movie before he met her, and that he had women back home while he romanced/pursed/stalked her, it is hard to call it dating.

However, it is evident that his initial intent had at some point been altered under her musing influence.

What she did to cause it, what about her influenced, moved and mused him, and then when did his intent change is the question. Also, to what degree did he change before he discovered her plan to leave?

This is what I would love to know but he is gone and unless you find it in her journals we will never know. It would be interesting to know what was the pivotal thing-

I tend to sway toward he found a true kindred spirit in Denise that was not merely due to her beauty or sexuality because those fade overtime. If it had been that alone the companionship you explained they kept for themselves and to themselves for decades would have existed.

.

I am not trying to offend anyone as I am reprimanded at times for saying this but I do believe their need for companionship with one another was due to finding a kindred soul to share with and just be with who "got" the other and she once she left in the 80s, was not on his payroll , or looking for a come up, or attempting to maintain public relevance. I would imagine that is freeing and a reason enough alone to maintain a friendship as you described they maintained.

Just had to share this today:

https://youtu.be/xY1QcJ6myYQ

Vashtix said:

Toban said:

When you factor in that he had been working on the formation of a sexy all girl group, that he wanted to make a movie before he met her, and that he had women back home while he romanced/pursed/stalked her, it is hard to call it dating.

However, it is evident that his initial intent had at some point been altered under her musing influence.

What she did to cause it, what about her influenced, moved and mused him, and then when did his intent change is the question. Also, to what degree did he change before he discovered her plan to leave?

This is what I would love to know but he is gone and unless you find it in her journals we will never know. It would be interesting to know what was the pivotal thing-

I tend to sway toward he found a true kindred spirit in Denise that was not merely due to her beauty or sexuality because those fade overtime. If it had been that alone the companionship you explained they kept for themselves and to themselves for decades would have existed.

.

I am not trying to offend anyone as I am reprimanded at times for saying this but I do believe their need for companionship with one another was due to finding a kindred soul to share with and just be with who "got" the other and she once she left in the 80s, was not on his payroll , or looking for a come up, or attempting to maintain public relevance. I would imagine that is freeing and a reason enough alone to maintain a friendship as you described they maintained.

Their relationship began before their success and it was kept secret after their success.

Their success, more or less, got in the way of that simple kind of falling in love with that strange kid who ask to try on her jacket, that kid who came over one evening and played the piano so beautifully, that kid who ask her “If you love me you will move in with me and let me make you a star…”

Denise was very observant, she had an artistic eye and vision (her mother and grandmother were a photographers), and she was also quite the chameleon; a survival technique she discovered and had to utilize very early in life when she was dropped off on the doorstep of her father’s house and had to quickly adjust. In fact, as result Denise didn’t just remind me of DeBorah she mimicked and acted just like her.

In Purple Rain, when she is giving him a gift, then she starts to quickly playfully tear it open? I see Apollonia playing Denise, acting like DeBorah.

Denise was a misfit just always trying to fit in and acclimate to her new environment; but then learning that she could change it.

A Cinderella with hopes of being rescued from her reality by…

.

Even when she was around me for any given amount of time she would begin to imitate my manner and lexicon, as did DeBorah, and it always began with them teasing me about my dramatic jesters when I spoke.

Denise had a flare for the dramatic, melodramatic actually. She recited her poetry in character, with a seductive, intense, emotion, an over-exaggerated accent, and deliberately a bit corny, for humor and because she did take herself that seriously or was not being over critical of herself when we shared our poetry. The best example of her dramatics is in her song 7^th Heaven where she begins with “Never say “never” at Heaven’s elevator door.

.

Watching her recite was much too entertaining, so it was difficult for me to stay focused on what she was saying. We’d always have to read over it again for me to fully understand all the symbolism in her spiritual poetry. In her lyrics as Vanity her use of similes, metaphors and double entendres more obvious. Except for things like, “I guess I’m just use to sailors, I think they got water on the brain. Think they got more water upstairs then they got sugar on their candy cane.”

Even without all the sexual overtones, if you read her poetry you’d know she wrote that.

It’s like a play on male one track thinking, it doesn’t matter what she says you know what she meant by how she says it.

Back in the day she probably could make Jingle Bells seem just as dirty as Nasty Girl or Little Red Corvette.

.

Denise has always loved to emotionally move and or shock people with her art or by what she did, she simply loved to watch the reaction. This led her to the stage even before she did movies.

She and Prince “The Rude Boy and the Nasty Girl” were both in it for the shock value and could basically write the newspaper articles that were going to be written about them the following morning. They’d even sometimes plan out their evening of clubbing or decide what they’d do and how they’d act towards one another from club to club before getting out of the limousine. Sometimes they would sit across a club not speaking and ignoring each other and then something times Big Chick is sent to physically snatch her dance partner off the floor.

.

One or two years before they met, after the beauty contest and as result of some racy photos in the Sunday Paper, in the comment sections of the paper a high school classmate describe Denise as being a bit of an exhibitionist long before she was known as the Nasty Girl.

What Prince was wearing and what he was doing on stage back then did mirror the shocking things she had already done. It was all that occurred between before the success, trying on her coat was just how their journey began.

Toban said:

Vashtix said:

This is what I would love to know but he is gone and unless you find it in her journals we will never know. It would be interesting to know what was the pivotal thing-

I tend to sway toward he found a true kindred spirit in Denise that was not merely due to her beauty or sexuality because those fade overtime. If it had been that alone the companionship you explained they kept for themselves and to themselves for decades would have existed.

.

I am not trying to offend anyone as I am reprimanded at times for saying this but I do believe their need for companionship with one another was due to finding a kindred soul to share with and just be with who "got" the other and she once she left in the 80s, was not on his payroll , or looking for a come up, or attempting to maintain public relevance. I would imagine that is freeing and a reason enough alone to maintain a friendship as you described they maintained.

Their relationship began before their success and it was kept secret after their success.

Their success, more or less, got in the way of that simple kind of falling in love with that strange kid who ask to try on her jacket, that kid who came over one evening and played the piano so beautifully, that kid who ask her “If you love me you will move in with me and let me make you a star…”

Denise was very observant, she had an artistic eye and vision (her mother and grandmother were a photographers), and she was also quite the chameleon; a survival technique she discovered and had to utilize very early in life when she was dropped off on the doorstep of her father’s house and had to quickly adjust. In fact, as result Denise didn’t just remind me of DeBorah she mimicked and acted just like her.

In Purple Rain, when she is giving him a gift, then she starts to quickly playfully tear it open? I see Apollonia playing Denise, acting like DeBorah.

Denise was a misfit just always trying to fit in and acclimate to her new environment; but then learning that she could change it.

A Cinderella with hopes of being rescued from her reality by…

.

Even when she was around me for any given amount of time she would begin to imitate my manner and lexicon, as did DeBorah, and it always began with them teasing me about my dramatic jesters when I spoke.

Denise had a flare for the dramatic, melodramatic actually. She recited her poetry in character, with a seductive, intense, emotion, an over-exaggerated accent, and deliberately a bit corny, for humor and because she did take herself that seriously or was not being over critical of herself when we shared our poetry. The best example of her dramatics is in her song 7^th Heaven where she begins with “Never say “never” at Heaven’s elevator door.

.

Watching her recite was much too entertaining, so it was difficult for me to stay focused on what she was saying. We’d always have to read over it again for me to fully understand all the symbolism in her spiritual poetry. In her lyrics as Vanity her use of similes, metaphors and double entendres more obvious. Except for things like, “I guess I’m just use to sailors, I think they got water on the brain. Think they got more water upstairs then they got sugar on their candy cane.”

Even without all the sexual overtones, if you read her poetry you’d know she wrote that.

It’s like a play on male one track thinking, it doesn’t matter what she says you know what she meant by how she says it.

Back in the day she probably could make Jingle Bells seem just as dirty as Nasty Girl or Little Red Corvette.

.

Denise has always loved to emotionally move and or shock people with her art or by what she did, she simply loved to watch the reaction. This led her to the stage even before she did movies.

She and Prince “The Rude Boy and the Nasty Girl” were both in it for the shock value and could basically write the newspaper articles that were going to be written about them the following morning. They’d even sometimes plan out their evening of clubbing or decide what they’d do and how they’d act towards one another from club to club before getting out of the limousine. Sometimes they would sit across a club not speaking and ignoring each other and then something times Big Chick is sent to physically snatch her dance partner off the floor.

.

One or two years before they met, after the beauty contest and as result of some racy photos in the Sunday Paper, in the comment sections of the paper a high school classmate describe Denise as being a bit of an exhibitionist long before she was known as the Nasty Girl.

What Prince was wearing and what he was doing on stage back then did mirror the shocking things she had already done. It was all that occurred between before the success, trying on her coat was just how their journey began.

thank you for sharing so openly here with us. and without all the ceremony of a Q & A. i appreciate

it. thank you.

Toban said:

Vashtix said:

This is what I would love to know but he is gone and unless you find it in her journals we will never know. It would be interesting to know what was the pivotal thing-

I tend to sway toward he found a true kindred spirit in Denise that was not merely due to her beauty or sexuality because those fade overtime. If it had been that alone the companionship you explained they kept for themselves and to themselves for decades would have existed.

.

I am not trying to offend anyone as I am reprimanded at times for saying this but I do believe their need for companionship with one another was due to finding a kindred soul to share with and just be with who "got" the other and she once she left in the 80s, was not on his payroll , or looking for a come up, or attempting to maintain public relevance. I would imagine that is freeing and a reason enough alone to maintain a friendship as you described they maintained.

Their relationship began before their success and it was kept secret after their success.

Their success, more or less, got in the way of that simple kind of falling in love with that strange kid who ask to try on her jacket, that kid who came over one evening and played the piano so beautifully, that kid who ask her “If you love me you will move in with me and let me make you a star…”

Denise was very observant, she had an artistic eye and vision (her mother and grandmother were a photographers), and she was also quite the chameleon; a survival technique she discovered and had to utilize very early in life when she was dropped off on the doorstep of her father’s house and had to quickly adjust. In fact, as result Denise didn’t just remind me of DeBorah she mimicked and acted just like her.

In Purple Rain, when she is giving him a gift, then she starts to quickly playfully tear it open? I see Apollonia playing Denise, acting like DeBorah.

Denise was a misfit just always trying to fit in and acclimate to her new environment; but then learning that she could change it.

A Cinderella with hopes of being rescued from her reality by…

.

Even when she was around me for any given amount of time she would begin to imitate my manner and lexicon, as did DeBorah, and it always began with them teasing me about my dramatic jesters when I spoke.

Denise had a flare for the dramatic, melodramatic actually. She recited her poetry in character, with a seductive, intense, emotion, an over-exaggerated accent, and deliberately a bit corny, for humor and because she did take herself that seriously or was not being over critical of herself when we shared our poetry. The best example of her dramatics is in her song 7^th Heaven where she begins with “Never say “never” at Heaven’s elevator door.

.

Watching her recite was much too entertaining, so it was difficult for me to stay focused on what she was saying. We’d always have to read over it again for me to fully understand all the symbolism in her spiritual poetry. In her lyrics as Vanity her use of similes, metaphors and double entendres more obvious. Except for things like, “I guess I’m just use to sailors, I think they got water on the brain. Think they got more water upstairs then they got sugar on their candy cane.”

Even without all the sexual overtones, if you read her poetry you’d know she wrote that.

It’s like a play on male one track thinking, it doesn’t matter what she says you know what she meant by how she says it.

Back in the day she probably could make Jingle Bells seem just as dirty as Nasty Girl or Little Red Corvette.

.

Denise has always loved to emotionally move and or shock people with her art or by what she did, she simply loved to watch the reaction. This led her to the stage even before she did movies.

She and Prince “The Rude Boy and the Nasty Girl” were both in it for the shock value and could basically write the newspaper articles that were going to be written about them the following morning. They’d even sometimes plan out their evening of clubbing or decide what they’d do and how they’d act towards one another from club to club before getting out of the limousine. Sometimes they would sit across a club not speaking and ignoring each other and then something times Big Chick is sent to physically snatch her dance partner off the floor.

.

One or two years before they met, after the beauty contest and as result of some racy photos in the Sunday Paper, in the comment sections of the paper a high school classmate describe Denise as being a bit of an exhibitionist long before she was known as the Nasty Girl.

What Prince was wearing and what he was doing on stage back then did mirror the shocking things she had already done. It was all that occurred between before the success, trying on her coat was just how their journey began.

I enjoyed Rude Boy and Nasty Girl- they did themselves proud !

.

I am taking away that you are confirming Vanity/Denise wrote lyrics on Nasty Girl.

.

Thanks for responding to my kindred spirit comment.

.

I am interested in the later years , I am fascinated at how they kept their frienship/companionship through the years (even with her ministry and his marriages and public romances). It is hard for me to wrap my head around it. I totally believe what you have shared but it is mind boggling. Did they maintain it to the end or did they stop communicating in 2012 as people keep stating here on the org. Hope I am not being too nosy but I am very curious because of all of the speculation.

Toban said:

.

Denise has always loved to emotionally move and or shock people with her art or by what she did, she simply loved to watch the reaction. This led her to the stage even before she did movies.

She and Prince “The Rude Boy and the Nasty Girl” were both in it for the shock value and could basically write the newspaper articles that were going to be written about them the following morning. They’d even sometimes plan out their evening of clubbing or decide what they’d do and how they’d act towards one another from club to club before getting out of the limousine. Sometimes they would sit across a club not speaking and ignoring each other and then something times Big Chick is sent to physically snatch her dance partner off the floor.

.

One or two years before they met, after the beauty contest and as result of some racy photos in the Sunday Paper, in the comment sections of the paper a high school classmate describe Denise as being a bit of an exhibitionist long before she was known as the Nasty Girl.

What Prince was wearing and what he was doing on stage back then did mirror the shocking things she had already done. It was all that occurred between before the success, trying on her coat was just how their journey began.

I find this to be quite interesting. Did Denise write or tell you about working on the Vanity 6 concept with Prince? In her post-hollywood interviews, she would often say that Prince made her dress, dance and sing provocatively or she wouldn't get paid. She seemed to say that she didn't like the overly sexual nature of her Vanity persona. Based on her pre-Vanity history that you've provided us though, it seems like a part of her enjoyed shocking people, even if it was sexually?

Shard said:

Toban said:

.

Denise has always loved to emotionally move and or shock people with her art or by what she did, she simply loved to watch the reaction. This led her to the stage even before she did movies.

She and Prince “The Rude Boy and the Nasty Girl” were both in it for the shock value and could basically write the newspaper articles that were going to be written about them the following morning. They’d even sometimes plan out their evening of clubbing or decide what they’d do and how they’d act towards one another from club to club before getting out of the limousine. Sometimes they would sit across a club not speaking and ignoring each other and then something times Big Chick is sent to physically snatch her dance partner off the floor.

.

One or two years before they met, after the beauty contest and as result of some racy photos in the Sunday Paper, in the comment sections of the paper a high school classmate describe Denise as being a bit of an exhibitionist long before she was known as the Nasty Girl.

What Prince was wearing and what he was doing on stage back then did mirror the shocking things she had already done. It was all that occurred between before the success, trying on her coat was just how their journey began.

I find this to be quite interesting. Did Denise write or tell you about working on the Vanity 6 concept with Prince? In her post-hollywood interviews, she would often say that Prince made her dress, dance and sing provocatively or she wouldn't get paid. She seemed to say that she didn't like the overly sexual nature of her Vanity persona. Based on her pre-Vanity history that you've provided us though, it seems like a part of her enjoyed shocking people, even if it was sexually?

No… Denise and I never really talked about it. From time to time as an example she’d mentioned something during a conversation and would relate what she’d or been through.

.

Yes… she has written about it a lot. Although, what might appear to be a contradiction isn’t. One thing has little or nothing to do with the other. Denise has whitewash what she would have said back then and so what she really meant has gotten lost in translation.

.

Difference should be between discussing her wanting suggestive and provocative, like “Do you think I’m a nasty girl?” or the very real possibility of discussing the short lived era of Porn and Pimping with "Vagina and the Hookers" simulating sex on stage.

.

Back before they met, Denise’s being an exhibitionist with her erotic drawings, the teasing way she walked, talked and dressed, and being very comfortable walking around naked was her being a free-spirit… Her Choice.

DeBorah is the same way and so were most of her friends.

.

With the quick changes required doing fashion shows and runway modeling you tend to get used to dressing, undressing, being completely naked in front of people and seeing beautiful people completely naked. It should actually liberate the mind of its sophomoric thought about the human body and remove insecurities about your own body. Hanging out with DeBorah and her friends after we did a show or when they’d comfortably walked around our home during their visit was never awkward.

.

Denise had modelled in New York and Japan, she had done Tanya’s Island and she had done her first Playboy 1 or 2 years before meeting Prince, she was comfortable with being nude in public, in magazines and on the big screen. So provocative and sexual suggestive movements and lyrics could not be what was at issue.

.

I do believe part of it was an issue of being in control of one’s own sexuality, let alone the idea someone wanting to bottle it and sell it like snake oil at a carnival sideshow.

Furthermore, you have to keep in mind that he initially wanted to promote it under his brand-named of Vagina and the Hookers. With that name “Do think I’m a Nasty Girl” would not have been a rhetorical question. The answer would’ve been “Yeah.”

If she had gone on tour under that name, if she had not pushed to change it she never would have lived that down. And he never would have gotten his movie approved. Not with Vagina written on the movie poster and riding on the back of his bike.

.

Since she did have training and a resume that included photography, fashion, theater and movies, it seems that the issue was that she wanted provocative suggestive sensuality and he wanted pimp and porn, so of course she was going to clash with a 23 year old “kid” wanting to simulate sex acts, and then also tell her what is titillating, sexy and enticing to men, when she had been proficiently taught and provided 2 prior generations of knowledge on how to seduce and tempt a man.

Some battles she won, some battles she lost.

.

What Denise also didn’t like is being told what to do, which always ended up with a male director calling for Vanity to be semi or completely nude.

This is what she actually didn’t like about her Vanity persona, the fact that she depended upon it to pay the bills. I doubt Vanity’s sexuality was the main issue, but rather hated her reliance on the persona to pay for her addiction.

Denise writes that she knew Vanity had been typecast as a body and face to sell ad space.

However, when she reflects back to talk or write about it (I Think) the sum total of her thoughts and feelings from all the collective years of being objectified are wrongfully focused and placed too much on Prince as his being the catalyst. The Prince that wanted ass shaking perfection, as Morris Day portraits him in that scene in Purple Rain, where Brenda is questioning why they can’t come up with their own dance moves.

.

Denise writes this compare and contrast a very surreal “If not for the grace of God go I” type piece about one night running into a group of prostitutes when she was about 20 year’s old living in New York and having 2 go 2 parties 2 network 2 get work as a model.

She writes it as if she briefly stepped outside of herself and begins to critically exam her life, making comparisons, assessment, judgements and ultimately an indictment of the intent in being at that glamourous party she had just left, and the overall objective of the company of women (or men) she now found herself surrounded. That there was very little difference in the goal and what was being sold.

Due to the sins of the father, thus a fate she feared she couldn’t escape.

Toban said:

Shard said:

I find this to be quite interesting. Did Denise write or tell you about working on the Vanity 6 concept with Prince? In her post-hollywood interviews, she would often say that Prince made her dress, dance and sing provocatively or she wouldn't get paid. She seemed to say that she didn't like the overly sexual nature of her Vanity persona. Based on her pre-Vanity history that you've provided us though, it seems like a part of her enjoyed shocking people, even if it was sexually?

No… Denise and I never really talked about it. From time to time as an example she’d mentioned something during a conversation and would relate what she’d or been through.

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Yes… she has written about it a lot. Although, what might appear to be a contradiction isn’t. One thing has little or nothing to do with the other. Denise has whitewash what she would have said back then and so what she really meant has gotten lost in translation.

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Difference should be between discussing her wanting suggestive and provocative, like “Do you think I’m a nasty girl?” or the very real possibility of discussing the short lived era of Porn and Pimping with "Vagina and the Hookers" simulating sex on stage.

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Back before they met, Denise’s being an exhibitionist with her erotic drawings, the teasing way she walked, talked and dressed, and being very comfortable walking around naked was her being a free-spirit… Her Choice.

DeBorah is the same way and so were most of her friends.

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With the quick changes required doing fashion shows and runway modeling you tend to get used to dressing, undressing, being completely naked in front of people and seeing beautiful people completely naked. It should actually liberate the mind of its sophomoric thought about the human body and remove insecurities about your own body. Hanging out with DeBorah and her friends after we did a show or when they’d comfortably walked around our home during their visit was never awkward.

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Denise had modelled in New York and Japan, she had done Tanya’s Island and she had done her first Playboy 1 or 2 years before meeting Prince, she was comfortable with being nude in public, in magazines and on the big screen. So provocative and sexual suggestive movements and lyrics could not be what was at issue.

.

I do believe part of it was an issue of being in control of one’s own sexuality, let alone the idea someone wanting to bottle it and sell it like snake oil at a carnival sideshow.

Furthermore, you have to keep in mind that he initially wanted to promote it under his brand-named of Vagina and the Hookers. With that name “Do think I’m a Nasty Girl” would not have been a rhetorical question. The answer would’ve been “Yeah.”

If she had gone on tour under that name, if she had not pushed to change it she never would have lived that down. And he never would have gotten his movie approved. Not with Vagina written on the movie poster and riding on the back of his bike.

.

Since she did have training and a resume that included photography, fashion, theater and movies, it seems that the issue was that she wanted provocative suggestive sensuality and he wanted pimp and porn, so of course she was going to clash with a 23 year old “kid” wanting to simulate sex acts, and then also tell her what is titillating, sexy and enticing to men, when she had been proficiently taught and provided 2 prior generations of knowledge on how to seduce and tempt a man.

Some battles she won, some battles she lost.

.

What Denise also didn’t like is being told what to do, which always ended up with a male director calling for Vanity to be semi or completely nude.

This is what she actually didn’t like about her Vanity persona, the fact that she depended upon it to pay the bills. I doubt Vanity’s sexuality was the main issue, but rather hated her reliance on the persona to pay for her addiction.

Denise writes that she knew Vanity had been typecast as a body and face to sell ad space.

However, when she reflects back to talk or write about it (I Think) the sum total of her thoughts and feelings from all the collective years of being objectified are wrongfully focused and placed too much on Prince as his being the catalyst. The Prince that wanted ass shaking perfection, as Morris Day portraits him in that scene in Purple Rain, where Brenda is questioning why they can’t come up with their own dance moves.

.

Denise writes this compare and contrast a very surreal “If not for the grace of God go I” type piece about one night running into a group of prostitutes when she was about 20 year’s old living in New York and having 2 go 2 parties 2 network 2 get work as a model.

She writes it as if she briefly stepped outside of herself and begins to critically exam her life, making comparisons, assessment, judgements and ultimately an indictment of the intent in being at that glamourous party she had just left, and the overall objective of the company of women (or men) she now found herself surrounded. That there was very little difference in the goal and what was being sold.

Due to the sins of the father, thus a fate she feared she couldn’t escape.

What highlighted explains much of what the folklore /urban legend is about them bumping heads and fighting.

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That "If not for the grace if God go I" is thought provoking and as like much of what she wrote I had to read it a few times to grasp it. She was right , diff venue so to speak but the same result- sex was being sold-no matter the locale - same/same.

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I still try to grasp how she made the decision to go with Prince and what he offered. She sounds as if she was well on her way . You shared with us her resume and various talents. It is interesting she decided on going in that direction with him.

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Did she ever realize how much what she did in the 80s laid the groundwork for the pop princesses that followed (their personas, dress, etc.)? She was wearing the lace gloves and cut out dresses before anyone else. She really was before her time.

[Edited 10/21/17 16:30pm]