Toban said:

purplegirl00 said:

Thank you for sharing this with us- TOB.

After looking at the Gestalt Prayer- you be who you are and I can be what I am-without expectations sounds simple in written word, but difficult played out in real life. Whomever hand wrote it, whether she did as a reminder to herself or if someone else did, it's deep and great model go by in relationships. One can be independent of one another, but yet still come together, find each other.

.

I'm glad you mentioned the mirroring effect in their lives having been more than just physical. They seemed to be moving in a parallel direction when it came to the spiritual changes that took place for them. You say coincidental and it was, but it was in sync. The most fascinating thing to me about this is that they could go from having been lovers in a romantic, tumultuous relationship to people with vastly different lifestyles sharing a deep friendship revolving around their spiritual faiths- which was also different from one another. In order to sustain that kind of friendship, they had to have had an understanding of being unconditional. I imagine there would've been disagreements and anyone could walk away at anytime.

.

I always joke about Prince and his harem(s) over here. I can't help it, that was Prince. It would be naive of me to think otherwise. Anyway, going back to Gestalt Prayer, perhaps she understood and accepted that this is what he did and how live. Perhaps she living out that prayer by not having expectations of him to change for them to share a deep, spiritual friendship.

[Edited 8/10/17 18:14pm]

Yes, to the above.

...more than coincidental... actually.

.

His pasting so soon after her shook us, DeBorah and I, because of what she had been saying to DeBorah for many years, that they would be in heaven together.

She does actually mention this in a poem and she graphical depicts them as angels in heaven in her book, with the phrase "find the Angels face."

.

Yes, she said a few things that didn't occur. Yes, we both thought it was nuts and hoped she was not repeating it to anyone else. We did not think she'd put it in her book. Of course it is cryptic, meant only for one person, as mentioned at the end of the poem with "You know."

.

Did some of his lyrics impart a similar sentiment?

.

They definitely understood each other, they obviously accepted each other as they were and it is evidently that they enjoyed each others companionship. That shared a special connection that they reserved for themselves and kept to themselves.

Even into their 50s?

Vashtix said:

Toban said:

Denise was strong willed no matter what. Yes I believe she refuse to be called "Vagina,"

Vanity worked. Thank Goodness.

Yes, I believe, even after that first night when she moved in, that she had some say the creation of Vanity. He just had the final say and she trusted him.

.

This was the begin, before they knew each other, before he truly knew her. She always mused him, but that was just her.

.

Denise didn't know she had sisters and a father until she was lead to believe that she was abandoned by her mother. She did know the love of a father, she didn't have a brother.

One argument with me scared her beyond reason. Her fear that I would break all contact with her because we disagreed made no sense, unless you knew and understood what she never had.

I had to make her understand that without being the father of her nephews or her sister's husband we would always remain as close as we were. Unconditionally

.

Was their relationship based on a similar understanding... unconditionally?

.

Their journey, from where they began to discussing religion? She had JW books in her storage, knowing I was raised in that religon from time to time she'd had ask me questions and she obviously had done her research.

This is who she was and what she had become and he was still right there being mused by her.

That is so sweet and sad. The fear of losing someone you care for over differing views or life status.

It is a good thing you were able to remain close with her if she had such insecuriities.

.

The Gestalt Prayer you felt was not in her handwriting-maybe a close friend wrote that down for her to keep knowing what you described about her.

.

You know the Evangelist Denise has my fascination in a way Vanity does not. This is why I like her preaching vids and podcasts. Did she travel alot with her preaching even going overseas to preach?

.

I have listened to one of her preaching vids or podcast and she was disussing Christmas. It was very JW-ish and as most mainstream Christians believe. She did study things. I found that so interesting but when discussing Denise peeps usually bore of her Evangelist side and that is the one that blows me away. How did she do that? How did the Rockstar muse the Evangelist?

This is just so perplexing. It is hard to blend in my head.

I know Denise traveled all over the country preaching, but I never noticed if she preached outside of the country. For tax reasons she kept everything single receipt and was accustom to writing checks to have a hardcopy document. If I find any events outside of the country I'll let you know.

.

I gave up on trying to dissociate Prince from Denise’s history. Remember, my agenda was wanting people to know the person I knew by promoting her as an artist, a poet and a woman of great faith and devotion (without debating any particular religious belief).

There is just so much more that she could and should be remembered for being, doing, accomplishing and or even attempting.

She sacrificed everything for her faith. I watched her suffer and endured excruciating pain, all while praising the name of Jesus in every breath. Thanking God for the ice-chips.

I witnessed this in wonderment.

I think she’d enjoy the irony of my writing all this in thread debating if it were her wonderful azz.

.

.

I thought it might be a bit selfish of me wanting to change other people’s memories of Vanity, so I decided to share what I knew about Denise. Discovering without fell that Prince someway somehow always made his way into her narrative. Of course, from what I already knew before coming here (the Org) this was to be expected, but what I found here was quite the opposite. And my OCD can’t resist the intrigue of a good mystery. I needed to understand this paradox of what happen to Vanity.

.

I probably shouldn’t ask, but I wonder, how short would the Thread be, if you took all the books written about Prince and posted all the statements made directly about Vanity, not the group Vanity 6?

What then happens if the postings were limited to only positive statements?

.

.

Denise had a unique perspective that saw beauty in the most unusual things. Her zeal and zest for life was infectious.

She did everything with a passion, with a dramatic excitement that forces you to want to be involved with whatever she was doing, myself included. She was like an HSN pitch person, taste this it so delicious, try this, read this, listen to this, feel this… isn’t it the best!!! She did it for Tanya’s Island, selling it before it was made. She did it for Prince, she did it for herself and she did it for Jesus more than anyone else.

This is what always mused him, this is why she was and always will be Adored…

Toban said:

Vashtix said:

That is so sweet and sad. The fear of losing someone you care for over differing views or life status.

It is a good thing you were able to remain close with her if she had such insecuriities.

.

The Gestalt Prayer you felt was not in her handwriting-maybe a close friend wrote that down for her to keep knowing what you described about her.

.

You know the Evangelist Denise has my fascination in a way Vanity does not. This is why I like her preaching vids and podcasts. Did she travel alot with her preaching even going overseas to preach?

.

I have listened to one of her preaching vids or podcast and she was disussing Christmas. It was very JW-ish and as most mainstream Christians believe. She did study things. I found that so interesting but when discussing Denise peeps usually bore of her Evangelist side and that is the one that blows me away. How did she do that? How did the Rockstar muse the Evangelist?

This is just so perplexing. It is hard to blend in my head.

I know Denise traveled all over the country preaching, but I never noticed if she preached outside of the country. For tax reasons she kept everything single receipt and was accustom to writing checks to have a hardcopy document. If I find any events outside of the country I'll let you know.

.

I gave up on trying to dissociate Prince from Denise’s history. Remember, my agenda was wanting people to know the person I knew by promoting her as an artist, a poet and a woman of great faith and devotion (without debating any particular religious belief).

There is just so much more that she could and should be remembered for being, doing, accomplishing and or even attempting.

She sacrificed everything for her faith. I watched her suffer and endured excruciating pain, all while praising the name of Jesus in every breath. Thanking God for the ice-chips.

I witnessed this in wonderment.

I think she’d enjoy the irony of my writing all this in thread debating if it were her wonderful azz.

.

.

I thought it might be a bit selfish of me wanting to change other people’s memories of Vanity, so I decided to share what I knew about Denise. Discovering without fell that Prince someway somehow always made his way into her narrative. Of course, from what I already knew before coming here (the Org) this was to be expected, but what I found here was quite the opposite. And my OCD can’t resist the intrigue of a good mystery. I needed to understand this paradox of what happen to Vanity.

.

I probably shouldn’t ask, but I wonder, how short would the Thread be, if you took all the books written about Prince and posted all the statements made directly about Vanity, not the group Vanity 6?

What then happens if the postings were limited to only positive statements?

.

.

Denise had a unique perspective that saw beauty in the most unusual things. Her zeal and zest for life was infectious.

She did everything with a passion, with a dramatic excitement that forces you to want to be involved with whatever she was doing, myself included. She was like an HSN pitch person, taste this it so delicious, try this, read this, listen to this, feel this… isn’t it the best!!! She did it for Tanya’s Island, selling it before it was made. She did it for Prince, she did it for herself and she did it for Jesus more than anyone else.

This is what always mused him, this is why she was and always will be Adored…

Thanks

^^^
Awesome Toban thank u so much for your words on Denise aka Vanity. She was so beautiful inside and out. She was/is an angel. 💟🎶💕

Toban said:

Denise was strong willed no matter what. Yes I believe she refuse to be called "Vagina,"

Vanity worked. Thank Goodness.

Yes, I believe, even after that first night when she moved in, that she had some say the creation of Vanity. He just had the final say and she trusted him.

.

This was the begin, before they knew each other, before he truly knew her. She always mused him, but that was just her.

.

Denise didn't know she had sisters and a father until she was lead to believe that she was abandoned by her mother. She did know the love of a father, she didn't have a brother.

One argument with me scared her beyond reason. Her fear that I would break all contact with her because we disagreed made no sense, unless you knew and understood what she never had.

I had to make her understand that without being the father of her nephews or her sister's husband we would always remain as close as we were. Unconditionally

.

Was their relationship based on a similar understanding... unconditionally?

.

Their journey, from where they began to discussing religion? She had JW books in her storage, knowing I was raised in that religon from time to time she'd had ask me questions and she obviously had done her research.

This is who she was and what she had become and he was still right there being mused by her.

Hi Toban - I'm a little confused about the bolded statement. Could you clarify that? I was under the impression that she was very close to her sisters all along.

Toban said:

purplegirl00 said:

Thank you for sharing this with us- TOB.

After looking at the Gestalt Prayer- you be who you are and I can be what I am-without expectations sounds simple in written word, but difficult played out in real life. Whomever hand wrote it, whether she did as a reminder to herself or if someone else did, it's deep and great model go by in relationships. One can be independent of one another, but yet still come together, find each other.

.

I'm glad you mentioned the mirroring effect in their lives having been more than just physical. They seemed to be moving in a parallel direction when it came to the spiritual changes that took place for them. You say coincidental and it was, but it was in sync. The most fascinating thing to me about this is that they could go from having been lovers in a romantic, tumultuous relationship to people with vastly different lifestyles sharing a deep friendship revolving around their spiritual faiths- which was also different from one another. In order to sustain that kind of friendship, they had to have had an understanding of being unconditional. I imagine there would've been disagreements and anyone could walk away at anytime.

.

I always joke about Prince and his harem(s) over here. I can't help it, that was Prince. It would be naive of me to think otherwise. Anyway, going back to Gestalt Prayer, perhaps she understood and accepted that this is what he did and how live. Perhaps she living out that prayer by not having expectations of him to change for them to share a deep, spiritual friendship.

[Edited 8/10/17 18:14pm]

Yes, to the above.

...more than coincidental... actually.

.

His pasting so soon after her shook us, DeBorah and I, because of what she had been saying to DeBorah for many years, that they would be in heaven together.

She does actually mention this in a poem and she graphical depicts them as angels in heaven in her book, with the phrase "find the Angels face."

.

Yes, she said a few things that didn't occur. Yes, we both thought it was nuts and hoped she was not repeating it to anyone else. We did not think she'd put it in her book. Of course it is cryptic, meant only for one person, as mentioned at the end of the poem with "You know."

.

Did some of his lyrics impart a similar sentiment?

.

They definitely understood each other, they obviously accepted each other as they were and it is evidently that they enjoyed each others companionship. They shared a special connection that they reserved for themselves and kept to themselves.

[Edited 8/11/17 18:58pm]

Thanks so much for answering my questions TOB! I really appreciate it. I took some time to ponder your responses. Plus, life also gets so busy sometimes. Anyway, in thinking about your responses, I wondered about a few more things, if I may..

When you say that "they enjoyed each others companionship", are we to assume this means they spent time hanging out in recent years?

I know you mentioned either earlier in this thread or in another that in the late 80's Deborah would attend Prince concerts with Denise. Did Deborah and Denise attend his concerts in recent years? I know Denise was strong in her faith and based on her preaching, seemed to have strong views on certain topics. However, with Prince having cleaned up his music of foul language and vulgarity in the last 16 years or so, and them having an understanding of each other, I wondered if Denise would've gone to see him perform?

One last thing, and I apologize if I sound like a machine gun with questions , this story is intriguing. It was said a few times in other threads that you had letters/ communication between Prince and Denise up to 2012. I think I missed when you said that but again, if I may, why did they stop communicating after that?

I understand if these questions are too direct and may not be appropriate for response here. Feel free to orgnote me if that is better for you. Thank you.

[Edited 8/17/17 15:58pm]

Misslink88 said:

Toban said:

Denise was strong willed no matter what. Yes I believe she refuse to be called "Vagina,"

Vanity worked. Thank Goodness.

Yes, I believe, even after that first night when she moved in, that she had some say the creation of Vanity. He just had the final say and she trusted him.

.

This was the begin, before they knew each other, before he truly knew her. She always mused him, but that was just her.

.

Denise didn't know she had sisters and a father until she was lead to believe that she was abandoned by her mother. She did know the love of a father, she didn't have a brother.

One argument with me scared her beyond reason. Her fear that I would break all contact with her because we disagreed made no sense, unless you knew and understood what she never had.

I had to make her understand that without being the father of her nephews or her sister's husband we would always remain as close as we were. Unconditionally

.

Was their relationship based on a similar understanding... unconditionally?

.

Their journey, from where they began to discussing religion? She had JW books in her storage, knowing I was raised in that religon from time to time she'd had ask me questions and she obviously had done her research.

This is who she was and what she had become and he was still right there being mused by her.

Hi Toban - I'm a little confused about the bolded statement. Could you clarify that? I was under the impression that she was very close to her sisters all along.

I have one of Denise highschool/primary school yearbooks when she was an underclassman.

Patty and DeBorah are not in it.

Their are picture of all 3 of them when DeBorah was an infant, so they must have been separated soon after for Denise not to remember when she was sent/made to live with her father.

The dynamics of it all was quite traumatizing. It is difficult for me to read, listen or discuss at length.

Eventually I will talk to my sons about their grandparents, but I will never publicly go into great detail about the subject.

Also, briefly not living under the same roof as toddlers and then as teenagers did not change their close relationship.

[Edited 8/17/17 19:30pm]

[Edited 8/17/17 19:31pm]

Toban said:

Misslink88 said:

Hi Toban - I'm a little confused about the bolded statement. Could you clarify that? I was under the impression that she was very close to her sisters all along.

I have one of Denise highschool/primary school yearbooks when she was an underclassman.

Patty and DeBorah are not in it.

Their are picture of all 3 of them when DeBorah was an infant, so they must have been separated soon after for Denise not to remember when she was sent/made to live with her father.

The dynamics of it all was quite traumatizing. It is difficult for me to read, listen or discuss at length.

Eventually I will talk to my sons about their grandparents, but I will never publicly go into great detail about the subject.

Also, briefly not living under the same roof as toddlers and then as teenagers did not change their close relationship.

[Edited 8/17/17 19:30pm]

[Edited 8/17/17 19:31pm]

Thanks for sharing that. I glad you're respecting the family's privacy and wish to keep details to yourself. I'm also very happy for her that her relationship with her sisters was close. I've seen that interview with her when she invited her sister to come sit with her and it was lovely to see their mutual love. I'm really sorry for you and your family's loss.

purplegirl00 said:

Toban said:

Yes, to the above.

...more than coincidental... actually.

.

His pasting so soon after her shook us, DeBorah and I, because of what she had been saying to DeBorah for many years, that they would be in heaven together.

She does actually mention this in a poem and she graphical depicts them as angels in heaven in her book, with the phrase "find the Angels face."

.

Yes, she said a few things that didn't occur. Yes, we both thought it was nuts and hoped she was not repeating it to anyone else. We did not think she'd put it in her book. Of course it is cryptic, meant only for one person, as mentioned at the end of the poem with "You know."

.

Did some of his lyrics impart a similar sentiment?

.

They definitely understood each other, they obviously accepted each other as they were and it is evidently that they enjoyed each others companionship. They shared a special connection that they reserved for themselves and kept to themselves.

[Edited 8/11/17 18:58pm]

Thanks so much for answering my questions TOB! I really appreciate it. I took some time to ponder your responses. Plus, life also gets so busy sometimes. Anyway, in thinking about your responses, I wondered about a few more things, if I may..

When you say that "they enjoyed each others companionship", are we to assume this means they spent time hanging out in recent years?

I know you mentioned either earlier in this thread or in another that in the late 80's Deborah would attend Prince concerts with Denise. Did Deborah and Denise attend his concerts in recent years? I know Denise was strong in her faith and based on her preaching, seemed to have strong views on certain topics. However, with Prince having cleaned up his music of foul language and vulgarity in the last 16 years or so, and them having an understanding of each other, I wondered if Denise would've gone to see him perform?

One last thing, and I apologize if I sound like a machine gun with questions , this story is intriguing. It was said a few times in other threads that you had letters/ communication between Prince and Denise up to 2012. I think I missed when you said that but again, if I may, why did they stop communicating after that?

I understand if these questions are too direct and may not be appropriate for response here. Feel free to orgnote me if that is better for you. Thank you.

[Edited 8/17/17 15:58pm]

DeBorah continued to go to his concerts after the LoveSexy. Tony Lemans being his protege DeBorah's initial reason.

They were both very private about their communications with Prince. Back then I'd only hear about their conversations about him, never about their conversation with him. Plus, I wasn't interested enough to know the difference.

Unless her people were stopping by or we were visiting I was much to busy as a new father to keep up with any of it.

I remember Bonny Boyer calling and singing to our first son when he was born in Oct 93.

The Gordys are really cool people. Charlie Wilson sent his tour bus to the house to take us to a GAP Band concert near by.

I inherited a number of good people when I married DeBorah.

Between being his friend, his girlfriends sister and the girlfriend of his protege. The only conversation with him that DeBorah ever spoke of is when he ask about me. I assumed it was due to concern, regarding Tony pasting the year before.

.

So, I said all that to give you a bit of my perspective with regard to what I am hearing. Which was usually DeBorah's half of a telephone conversation mostly frustrated with Denise's relationship with Prince. Unaware of what it was or what it had evolved into. At one time thinking "isn't he married?" But DeBorah, having talk and listened to this, held her, cried with her for all these many years, to the outside observer watching or listen you'd swear Prince and Denise were still together in the early 90s.

It wasn't until recently that I put it all together as to why Denise was so upset, as if she had just lost Prince. She was being told that he was evil and that she had been an idol that had stole glory from God.

_____________

to be continued

Toban said:

purplegirl00 said:

Thanks so much for answering my questions TOB! I really appreciate it. I took some time to ponder your responses. Plus, life also gets so busy sometimes. Anyway, in thinking about your responses, I wondered about a few more things, if I may..

When you say that "they enjoyed each others companionship", are we to assume this means they spent time hanging out in recent years?

I know you mentioned either earlier in this thread or in another that in the late 80's Deborah would attend Prince concerts with Denise. Did Deborah and Denise attend his concerts in recent years? I know Denise was strong in her faith and based on her preaching, seemed to have strong views on certain topics. However, with Prince having cleaned up his music of foul language and vulgarity in the last 16 years or so, and them having an understanding of each other, I wondered if Denise would've gone to see him perform?

One last thing, and I apologize if I sound like a machine gun with questions , this story is intriguing. It was said a few times in other threads that you had letters/ communication between Prince and Denise up to 2012. I think I missed when you said that but again, if I may, why did they stop communicating after that?

I understand if these questions are too direct and may not be appropriate for response here. Feel free to orgnote me if that is better for you. Thank you.

[Edited 8/17/17 15:58pm]

DeBorah continued to go to his concerts after the LoveSexy. Tony Lemans being his protege DeBorah's initial reason.

They were both very private about their communications with Prince. Back then I'd only hear about their conversations about him, never about their conversation with him. Plus, I wasn't interested enough to know the difference.

Unless her people were stopping by or we were visiting I was much to busy as a new father to keep up with any of it.

I remember Bonny Boyer calling and singing to our first son when he was born in Oct 93.

The Gordys are really cool people. Charlie Wilson sent his tour bus to the house to take us to a GAP Band concert near by.

I inherited a number of good people when I married DeBorah.

Between being his friend, his girlfriends sister and the girlfriend of his protege. The only conversation with him that DeBorah ever spoke of is when he ask about me. I assumed it was due to concern, regarding Tony pasting the year before.

.

So, I said all that to give you a bit of my perspective with regard to what I am hearing. Which was usually DeBorah's half of a telephone conversation mostly frustrated with Denise's relationship with Prince. Unaware of what it was or what it had evolved into. At one time thinking "isn't he married?" But DeBorah, having talk and listened to this, held her, cried with her for all these many years, to the outside observer watching or listen you'd swear Prince and Denise were still together in the early 90s.

It wasn't until recently that I put it all together as to why Denise was so upset, as if she had just lost Prince. She was being told that he was evil and that she had been an idol that had stole glory from God.

_____________

to be continued

I'm glad in some ways that they still communicated, but with all Vanity was going through, and Prince's penchant for twisty words and head games, it would not have been healthy for Vanity at all.

Toban said:

purplegirl00 said:

Thanks so much for answering my questions TOB! I really appreciate it. I took some time to ponder your responses. Plus, life also gets so busy sometimes. Anyway, in thinking about your responses, I wondered about a few more things, if I may..

When you say that "they enjoyed each others companionship", are we to assume this means they spent time hanging out in recent years?

I know you mentioned either earlier in this thread or in another that in the late 80's Deborah would attend Prince concerts with Denise. Did Deborah and Denise attend his concerts in recent years? I know Denise was strong in her faith and based on her preaching, seemed to have strong views on certain topics. However, with Prince having cleaned up his music of foul language and vulgarity in the last 16 years or so, and them having an understanding of each other, I wondered if Denise would've gone to see him perform?

One last thing, and I apologize if I sound like a machine gun with questions , this story is intriguing. It was said a few times in other threads that you had letters/ communication between Prince and Denise up to 2012. I think I missed when you said that but again, if I may, why did they stop communicating after that?

I understand if these questions are too direct and may not be appropriate for response here. Feel free to orgnote me if that is better for you. Thank you.

[Edited 8/17/17 15:58pm]

DeBorah continued to go to his concerts after the LoveSexy. Tony Lemans being his protege DeBorah's initial reason.

They were both very private about their communications with Prince. Back then I'd only hear about their conversations about him, never about their conversation with him. Plus, I wasn't interested enough to know the difference.

Unless her people were stopping by or we were visiting I was much to busy as a new father to keep up with any of it.

I remember Bonny Boyer calling and singing to our first son when he was born in Oct 93.

The Gordys are really cool people. Charlie Wilson sent his tour bus to the house to take us to a GAP Band concert near by.

I inherited a number of good people when I married DeBorah.

Between being his friend, his girlfriends sister and the girlfriend of his protege. The only conversation with him that DeBorah ever spoke of is when he ask about me. I assumed it was due to concern, regarding Tony pasting the year before.

.

So, I said all that to give you a bit of my perspective with regard to what I am hearing. Which was usually DeBorah's half of a telephone conversation mostly frustrated with Denise's relationship with Prince. Unaware of what it was or what it had evolved into. At one time thinking "isn't he married?" But DeBorah, having talk and listened to this, held her, cried with her for all these many years, to the outside observer watching or listen you'd swear Prince and Denise were still together in the early 90s.

It wasn't until recently that I put it all together as to why Denise was so upset, as if she had just lost Prince. She was being told that he was evil and that she had been an idol that had stole glory from God.

_____________

to be continued

Again, thank you for sharing your perspective. I think I get what you're saying.

Anyone that close to Prince, especially the connections Deborah had to him, would've understood his preservation of privacy. As a megastar this not usually the reality. However, Prince made it work. Still to this day, most that had some association to him are quiet and tightlipped. Some due to possible NDA contracts still in effect, then some just out of loyality and respect for whatever connections to Prince they had. It's understandable.

.

Wow how SUPER special to have had Bonny Boyer sing to your newborn son! I really enjoyed her work with Prince. It's wonderful that you'll be able to share that experience with your grandchildren some day. She, too, was lifted to heaven too soon.

.

Prince seemed to have been going through a difficult transition period- creatively, artistically, spiritually, and perhaps in his personal life too in the 90's. Denise appeared to be going through similar changes as well. Seemingly at the same time. Then to have been told Prince was evil and that she had stolen glory from God? Whoa.. I understand she had given her life to Christ and that things would change for her but to have contempt and condemnation drilled into her in that fashion? I imagine this would've caused a tug of war between her feelings for Prince and what she was being taught/ instructed to believe in her new walk with Christ. It's sounds painful, heavy- laden, and conflicted. No wonder she was so upset and felt like she lost Prince or had to give him up.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Toban said:

DeBorah continued to go to his concerts after the LoveSexy. Tony Lemans being his protege DeBorah's initial reason.

They were both very private about their communications with Prince. Back then I'd only hear about their conversations about him, never about their conversation with him. Plus, I wasn't interested enough to know the difference.

Unless her people were stopping by or we were visiting I was much to busy as a new father to keep up with any of it.

I remember Bonny Boyer calling and singing to our first son when he was born in Oct 93.

The Gordys are really cool people. Charlie Wilson sent his tour bus to the house to take us to a GAP Band concert near by.

I inherited a number of good people when I married DeBorah.

Between being his friend, his girlfriends sister and the girlfriend of his protege. The only conversation with him that DeBorah ever spoke of is when he ask about me. I assumed it was due to concern, regarding Tony pasting the year before.

.

So, I said all that to give you a bit of my perspective with regard to what I am hearing. Which was usually DeBorah's half of a telephone conversation mostly frustrated with Denise's relationship with Prince. Unaware of what it was or what it had evolved into. At one time thinking "isn't he married?" But DeBorah, having talk and listened to this, held her, cried with her for all these many years, to the outside observer watching or listen you'd swear Prince and Denise were still together in the early 90s.

It wasn't until recently that I put it all together as to why Denise was so upset, as if she had just lost Prince. She was being told that he was evil and that she had been an idol that had stole glory from God.

_____________

to be continued

I'm glad in some ways that they still communicated, but with all Vanity was going through, and Prince's penchant for twisty words and head games, it would not have been healthy for Vanity at all.

Denise and Prince were in love. Stupid, crazy in love as DeBorah (Debbie, as they both called her) often put it. I didn’t understand it, I didn’t pay much attention back then (in the 90’s) and I never directly ask Denise about it later (2001 to 2016). The funny thing is Denise and Debbie always thought or assumed I knew everything about Denise/Vanity’s history, both thinking that the other had told me.

At some point Denise realized the Debbie didn’t tell me everything and that she continued to keep all her secrets, even from me. This allowed Denise to reinvent herself in my eyes, telling me only what she wanted me to know, which seemed to be important to her, as the Evangelist; or was it Vanity.

.

Denise was very much aware of his head games, and at times she often stops her narrative and describes them in dramatic detail. She explains his intent, how she was made feel and how she would give in; again, as if fully aware of the intention to manipulate her.

.

Twisted words…

When they first met that evening at the AMA his poetic wordplay is the first notable thing that she describes. Then she immediately does it again describing his voice and what he did and did not say during that unexpected 2 or 3 A.M. phone call the next morning (a few hours after they first met). Unaware of how he had gotten the phone number to the home she was staying, and being awaken by her agent, Hal Ray, saying that someone was phone that wanted to speak to her. She describes his voice as being “apologetic without actually apologizing.” Telling him to call back...

.

Without a doubt, Vanity knew Prince very well and could handle his head games. She also played with his and they played them together, regardless of others or who got hurt.

She writes about how Prince was easy to read and would often tell her to stop reading his mind. These two were two of a kind, they had similar habits and they knew what they had and where they stood with the other.

.

Just being a beautiful woman Vanity had the advantage. Plus, Vanity, the prototype, was literally fashioned in Prince’s image and was his creation, which was an disadvantage involving his own pride and ego.

Denise’s idea of “Denise” on the other hand was no longer as secure with herself as she had been 10 years ago. Without informing him of her condition, while in the weak mental and physical state that she was in… jonesing for a hit of some comfort… for something familiar, an uninformed Prince may not have been much help for what Denise was going through.

.

Vanity coming out to play or Vanity winning is how Denise began referring to herself in her writings, as if it Denise and Vanity were in a battle with each other. A battle that Denise was continuously losing.

.

If Denise had been enrolled in a legitimate treatment facility, Prince might have possibly been considered as one of her addictions. They apparently (at this point 1992) had enabled each other’s bad behavior for the past 10 years; each of them always having the other to run back to, to cocoon in the comfort of the familiar.

Debbie has described how badly Vanity treated her men, and up to this point Prince’s record seems to be consistent. So it kind of makes you wonder, how did they treat each other?

.

Most won’t get this but I’ll say it anyway, I don’t think Denise trusted Prince enough. Of course, the same could be said about Prince. But, if Denise had trusted him with what she needed to do for herself, instead of running and staying away, would Prince had been there for her no matter what happened.

.

All he knew is that she left and was staying away for him.

.

The 1994 letter he sent her while she was in the hospital was the first contact in over 2 years. Not since Kim had rang the phone off the hook, is the last time she had seen him. This is how she references how much time has passed since she had seen him, which I think was most likely over 3 years

In the letter he ask her to write back, unaware that at the time that she was blind.

.

Toban said:

Thanks for sharing once again Toban. I was surprised that Prince still wanted to be in a romantic relationship with Denise while she suffered from such debilitating drug addiction. That tells me how hard it was for him to stop seeing her. How hard it was for both of them. Did she put her drug use in context when they were seeing each other? Do you know if he ever tried to help her to get into rehab at any point, or addressed her drug addiction? Recently Prince sister Sharon Nelson answered in a question and answer thread that she thought Denise was the love of Prince's life. What are your thoughts? Do you know when as lovers throughout the years, if they had any kind of relationship with any of his family members?
[Edited 8/23/17 12:00pm]

Toban said:

You should release a book about vanity/Denise, i would buy it in a heartbeat.

luvgirl said:

Toban said:

Denise and Prince were in love. Stupid, crazy in love as DeBorah (Debbie, as they both called her) often put it. I didn’t understand it, I didn’t pay much attention back then (in the 90’s) and I never directly ask Denise about it later (2001 to 2016). The funny thing is Denise and Debbie always thought or assumed I knew everything about Denise/Vanity’s history, both thinking that the other had told me.

At some point Denise realized the Debbie didn’t tell me everything and that she continued to keep all her secrets, even from me. This allowed Denise to reinvent herself in my eyes, telling me only what she wanted me to know, which seemed to be important to her, as the Evangelist; or was it Vanity.

.

Denise was very much aware of his head games, and at times she often stops her narrative and describes them in dramatic detail. She explains his intent, how she was made feel and how she would give in; again, as if fully aware of the intention to manipulate her.

.

Twisted words…

When they first met that evening at the AMA his poetic wordplay is the first notable thing that she describes. Then she immediately does it again describing his voice and what he did and did not say during that unexpected 2 or 3 A.M. phone call the next morning (a few hours after they first met). Unaware of how he had gotten the phone number to the home she was staying, and being awaken by her agent, Hal Ray, saying that someone was phone that wanted to speak to her. She describes his voice as being “apologetic without actually apologizing.” Telling him to call back...

.

Without a doubt, Vanity knew Prince very well and could handle his head games. She also played with his and they played them together, regardless of others or who got hurt.

She writes about how Prince was easy to read and would often tell her to stop reading his mind. These two were two of a kind, they had similar habits and they knew what they had and where they stood with the other.

.

Just being a beautiful woman Vanity had the advantage. Plus, Vanity, the prototype, was literally fashioned in Prince’s image and was his creation, which was an disadvantage involving his own pride and ego.

Denise’s idea of “Denise” on the other hand was no longer as secure with herself as she had been 10 years ago. Without informing him of her condition, while in the weak mental and physical state that she was in… jonesing for a hit of some comfort… for something familiar, an uninformed Prince may not have been much help for what Denise was going through.

.

Vanity coming out to play or Vanity winning is how Denise began referring to herself in her writings, as if it Denise and Vanity were in a battle with each other. A battle that Denise was continuously losing.

.

If Denise had been enrolled in a legitimate treatment facility, Prince might have possibly been considered as one of her addictions. They apparently (at this point 1992) had enabled each other’s bad behavior for the past 10 years; each of them always having the other to run back to, to cocoon in the comfort of the familiar.

Debbie has described how badly Vanity treated her men, and up to this point Prince’s record seems to be consistent. So it kind of makes you wonder, how did they treat each other?

.

Most won’t get this but I’ll say it anyway, I don’t think Denise trusted Prince enough. Of course, the same could be said about Prince. But, if Denise had trusted him with what she needed to do for herself, instead of running and staying away, would Prince had been there for her no matter what happened.

.

All he knew is that she left and was staying away for him.

.

The 1994 letter he sent her while she was in the hospital was the first contact in over 2 years. Not since Kim had rang the phone off the hook, is the last time she had seen him. This is how she references how much time has passed since she had seen him, which I think was most likely over 3 years

In the letter he ask her to write back, unaware that at the time that she was blind.

.

Thanks for sharing once again Toban. I was surprised that Prince still wanted to be in a romantic relationship with Denise while she suffered from such debilitating drug addiction. That tells me how hard it was for him to stop seeing her. How hard it was for both of them. Did she put her drug use in context when they were seeing each other? Do you know if he ever tried to help her to get into rehab at any point, or addressed her drug addiction? Recently Prince sister Sharon Nelson answered in a question and answer thread that she thought Denise was the love of Prince's life. What are your thoughts? Do you know when as lovers throughout the years, if they had any kind of relationship with any of his family members? [Edited 8/23/17 12:00pm]

Initially no one close to her other than her agent was aware that her recreational drug use was actually an addiction problem. And he did try to get her help and put her in rehab.

.

Vanity would make an excuse and turn Prince away to prevent him from seeing her on a bad day.

.

At the height of War on Drugs, in her business as a celebrity or public figure (who do not have the same rights to privacy), during and after her denial that she had a problem, she still continued to hide the seriousness of her addiction.

You’d think with Daily Drug Testing being written into her movie contracts that would be a big enough hint and clue of the seriousness of the issue.

In her writing you can tell when she begins to rationalize and make excuses for herself and associate only Vanity with having the drug problem. As if Vanity was the one who needed it not her. Denise just had bills and thus needed Vanity to pay them.

.

Denise also had a problem with asking for help, so it’s unlikely she admitted she had a problem to anyone that cared enough who could do anything about it.

.

.

I remember years ago Debbie mentioned his family, his father and his extended family. Something about where everybody would go to eat. She had talk about visiting Prince when Denise could not be there due to work. She talked about being blindfolded and taken to a huge studio that would fit a jumbo jet. It was filled with speakers along the walls and in the middle was a desk where he wrote.

A touch of nostalgia remembering how DeBorah and I would spend most of our time just talking nights away once the boys went to sleep. Denise was very good company so I imagine that Prince and Denise did pretty much the same. I fully understand why he missed and why he would seek her encouraging, imaginative, playful, creative, crazy sexy company. At any time, at any age, romance or not, married or not... and not just due to nostalgia. They simply just loved and always enjoyed each other’s company.

Strawberrylova123 said:

Toban said:

Denise and Prince were in love. Stupid, crazy in love as DeBorah (Debbie, as they both called her) often put it. I didn’t understand it, I didn’t pay much attention back then (in the 90’s) and I never directly ask Denise about it later (2001 to 2016). The funny thing is Denise and Debbie always thought or assumed I knew everything about Denise/Vanity’s history, both thinking that the other had told me.

At some point Denise realized the Debbie didn’t tell me everything and that she continued to keep all her secrets, even from me. This allowed Denise to reinvent herself in my eyes, telling me only what she wanted me to know, which seemed to be important to her, as the Evangelist; or was it Vanity.

.

Denise was very much aware of his head games, and at times she often stops her narrative and describes them in dramatic detail. She explains his intent, how she was made feel and how she would give in; again, as if fully aware of the intention to manipulate her.

.

Twisted words…

When they first met that evening at the AMA his poetic wordplay is the first notable thing that she describes. Then she immediately does it again describing his voice and what he did and did not say during that unexpected 2 or 3 A.M. phone call the next morning (a few hours after they first met). Unaware of how he had gotten the phone number to the home she was staying, and being awaken by her agent, Hal Ray, saying that someone was phone that wanted to speak to her. She describes his voice as being “apologetic without actually apologizing.” Telling him to call back...

.

Without a doubt, Vanity knew Prince very well and could handle his head games. She also played with his and they played them together, regardless of others or who got hurt.

She writes about how Prince was easy to read and would often tell her to stop reading his mind. These two were two of a kind, they had similar habits and they knew what they had and where they stood with the other.

.

Just being a beautiful woman Vanity had the advantage. Plus, Vanity, the prototype, was literally fashioned in Prince’s image and was his creation, which was an disadvantage involving his own pride and ego.

Denise’s idea of “Denise” on the other hand was no longer as secure with herself as she had been 10 years ago. Without informing him of her condition, while in the weak mental and physical state that she was in… jonesing for a hit of some comfort… for something familiar, an uninformed Prince may not have been much help for what Denise was going through.

.

Vanity coming out to play or Vanity winning is how Denise began referring to herself in her writings, as if it Denise and Vanity were in a battle with each other. A battle that Denise was continuously losing.

.

If Denise had been enrolled in a legitimate treatment facility, Prince might have possibly been considered as one of her addictions. They apparently (at this point 1992) had enabled each other’s bad behavior for the past 10 years; each of them always having the other to run back to, to cocoon in the comfort of the familiar.

Debbie has described how badly Vanity treated her men, and up to this point Prince’s record seems to be consistent. So it kind of makes you wonder, how did they treat each other?

.

Most won’t get this but I’ll say it anyway, I don’t think Denise trusted Prince enough. Of course, the same could be said about Prince. But, if Denise had trusted him with what she needed to do for herself, instead of running and staying away, would Prince had been there for her no matter what happened.

.

All he knew is that she left and was staying away for him.

.

The 1994 letter he sent her while she was in the hospital was the first contact in over 2 years. Not since Kim had rang the phone off the hook, is the last time she had seen him. This is how she references how much time has passed since she had seen him, which I think was most likely over 3 years

In the letter he ask her to write back, unaware that at the time that she was blind.

.

You should release a book about vanity/Denise, i would buy it in a heartbeat.

I have only recently began entertaining the thought when I loss something I wrote a few days ago and had to rewrite it. In trying to find it realized how much I had written on various subjects. Most of what I wrote was in answer to questions here, and most of what I wrote I did not fully post.

.

If I had the time...

I had always wanted to do a book of her poetry and art. But now after organizing her art and writings, seeing examples of what she wanted to do, and after being here in the Org I have more than a few ideas for 4 separate books regarding what she was creating, a book based upon her unpublished memoirs, and one other book from different (mine or DeBorah's or both) perspective.

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IS THERE A PUBLISHER IN THE HOUSE?

Toban said:

Is her sister Debbie planning a project for her sister? She should! Her legacy needs to be known more

YAY!!

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This is great news! I want so badly for an authentic perscpective on Vanity to come out. It is so needed. All these decades all we get is her being a minimally talented, sex fiend, drug addicted whore for Prince and others. I love your posts because it shows what is real about Vanity. What we have so far is she broke Prince's heart by not doing Purple Rain, or was nothing but lay for him, threw shade that she was not "good" enough having no good home and a druggie and no talent til she met Prince.

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SO, you know I will be if it is a book from you . I know you love and respect her and we need it for Prince's legacy. Denise's story needs to be told in a manner that reflects who she really was no matter how many others have books demonizing her and discounting her as far as her connection to Prince. As I have told you she has been such inspiration for strength, courage, and dignity. It is clear she was human and not perfect but she had faith in Jesus and fought for her soul, her life. Powerful story. Her friendship with Prince lasting over decades is fascinating too. Their connection and transitioning weeks apart is just something there are no words for . . . yet.

Looking forward to the book(s).

Concurring with all my fellow Denise/ Vanity fans on your book ideas! While only a few of us post here, it doesn't represent the worldwide fan base she has. She left her mark not only on pop culture, but on the hearts of those she touched with her ministry. Many are interested in knowing more about her artistry, her struggles and triumphs over addiction, her journey to Christ, and last but not least, her romance and then lasting friendship with Prince.
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I'm so grateful for the glimpse you've given us on what is was like to know her personally. She was truly an inspiring lady. It would be such an honor to her life, memory, and legacy to tell her story.

Totally agree with the members above and I would too love and support a book from your perspective and her sisters - her family. It is such an important and moving story to tell. I too am intrigued by Denise's life and story, and I am in awe of her strength and light. She is still sometimes in death not fully understood but her journey from the early years to almost dying to then finding true purpose thru faith and Jesus is so moving.

And through all that too keeping her relationship, love and friendship with Prince going when the public and his fans weren't aware - fascinating. The book and multiple ideas you have also sharing her art would have meaning and I believe would sell. She was a big part of Prince's life and his fans would want to know more about Denise aka Vanity.