purplethunder3121 said:

Taking me out of context is immature. I am not going to agree with some assertion/implication that Prince wrote a basic skeleton of a song, W and L made the song sound great and maybe added lyrics or whatever and then Prince just released the song on SOTT (only giving them credit for background vocals) as his own. If Wendy is making that implication or you are doing that, then you folks are completely diminishing Prince's talent.

If Prince wrote the melody for Strange Relationship for example, then handed it to W and L and said I want instrumention that is whimsical and uses a harpischord or some shit and then W and L do what he says. Then later, the band breaks up. Prince keeps the Strange Relationship melody, strips out their instrumentation (like he had done with Clare's orchestration at times) and adds a simple one of his own. Then the credits are correct. But Wendy is also correct in stating that she worked hard on the song at one point. But leaving it vague like she just did either inadvertedly or intentionally (hopefully, its the former) dimished his talent and implies the scenerio in the first paragraph I wrote.

GuyBros said:

purplerabbithole said:

she cut him either to avoid getting off track too much or to reclaim their contributions to those songs that Prince later removed.

[Edited 5/18/17 16:26pm]

She implied it herself. When she said he gave her general ideas and left to do the million other things he does. And that she did lots on that album. What else are people going to think? General ideas for songs? General ideas for instrumentation/accompaniment? Her vagueness is the problem?

GuyBros said:

purplerabbithole said:

I don't pretend to be unbiased either. But I would not go on a Wendy and Lisa site and strictly focus on how Prince wrote SOTT (the song), When Doves Cry, Darling Nikki, nearly the entirety of 1999 without them...

First of all: huh?

Second of all: That's a bad analogy. What I am NOT doing is claiming the ladies wrote nearly all of SOTT without Prince. And neither is Wendy or Bobby Z.

If you think that in this thread my fact checking those who have shown to have a history of attempting to twist a narrative is at all analagous to that, that's on you.

[Edited 5/18/17 16:29pm]

[Edited 5/18/17 16:32pm]

purplerabbithole said:

Taking me out of context is immature.

Not sorry, not sorry. But, you literally gave 2 options about the talk. So even within the context of your posts which I will now post entirely here:

In her defense, she could be talking about instrumentation originally added to strange Relationship by her and Lisa that was removed once he recorded it for the SOTT album.

Her vagueness is kind of a crappy move. Bobby Z might have been alluding to Dream Factory etc and she cut him either to avoid getting off track too much or to reclaim their contributions to those songs that Prince later removed. Like saying "I did all that work based on his arrangement ideas and he removed him anyhow. But I still have a right to be given credit for the work that directly or indirectly led to this album."

So, even with all of that context, you chose to provide an either or situation.

The first situation posits thatt Wendy cut Bobby off to keep him focused. And in the second one you attempt to insert the idea that she's intentionally trying "reclaim their contributions to those songs that Prince later removed."

We call these types of either or scenarios false dichotomies. Because it's also possible that this is how conversations happen and occur. Cross talk/overtalk happens. There's a third reason. And so on and so on.

then you folks are completely diminishing Prince's talent.

Prince is my favorite musical artist. I don't have any stake in diminishing his talent. But if some think that it diminishes one's musical genius if an artist has chosen to collaborate or work with or utilize the input of anybody outside of themselves in any capacity, that's on them. I'm good with knowing Prince is still a genius.

[Edited 5/18/17 16:54pm]

I never said he didn't collaborate. I am saying he usually gave credit where it was due (with a few slip ups here and there). If she is implying that she deserves more credit, then she needs to prove it and be specific.

As for my false dichotomies...fine I am guilty.

But you are guilty of avoiding the subject by attacking the semantics of my argument. I wrote two paragraphs that entail possible things she is implying. Do you believe that Prince wrote the skeleton of songs or just basic vague ideas for songs like "I could never take the place of your man" and W and L basically did almost everything else and that is what was featured on the album? Because that is what could very easily be interpreted from what she is saying (especially by people who don't know much about the Dream Factory recordings.) I believe the second of my two paragraphs.

With all due respect, when people say they are Prince fans, they often mean Prince and the Revolution fans. And that in itself is a bias where these discussions are concerned. Fans should not have to like every piece of work an artist puts out but I have a tough time with fans who discredit anything post Warner Brothers or the Revolution. Not sure what music of his you like or dont' like. But fans can be biased.

I am a huge Police fan and as a result it is hard for me to not love Sting. But that being said, I am biased toward Sting when he had Andy Summer and Stewart Copeland working with him. NOt as much of a Sting-solo-artist fan. So, I can't claim to be a enormous Sting fan (although I love 'An Englishmen in New York" and "Fortress around my heart"_)

GuyBros said:

purplerabbithole said:

Taking me out of context is immature.

Not sorry, not sorry. But, you literally gave 2 options about the talk. So even within the context of your posts which I will now post entirely here:

So, even with all of that context, you chose to provide an either or situation.

The first situation posits thatt Wendy cut Bobby off to keep him focused. And in the second one you attempt to insert the idea that she's intentionally trying "reclaim their contributions to those songs that Prince later removed."

We call these types of either or scenarios false dichotomies. Because it's also possible that this is how conversations happen and occur. Cross talk/overtalk happens. There's a third reason. And so on and so on.

then you folks are completely diminishing Prince's talent.

Prince is probably my favorite musical artists. I don't have any stake in diminishing his talent. But if some think that it diminishes one's musical genius if an artist has chosen to collaborate or work with or utilize the input of anybody outside of themselves in any capacity, that's on them. I'm good with knowing Prince is still a genius.

[Edited 5/18/17 16:52pm]

[Edited 5/18/17 17:10pm]

[Edited 5/18/17 17:46pm]

purplerabbithole said:

I don't pretend to be unbiased either. But I would not go on a Wendy and Lisa site and strictly focus on how Prince wrote SOTT (the song), When Doves Cry, Darling Nikki, Beautiful ones, nearly the entirety of 1999, his first two albums, most of Controversy/Dirty Mind (Lisa was there and must have contributed some) and 20 years of underrated (albeit inconsistent) post WB music, without them... Even Lisa admitted that Prince composed, performed and recorded that song(Strange Way) for her in 2-3 hours all by himself.

GuyBros said:

Girl, you're late. Go back to page 5 where I tell ya'll to check out the screenname AND avatar. Yeah, I love me some Prince. And that doesn't stop me from appreciating other artists too.

The difference here is: I don't pretend to be unbiased.

Some people claim to be. And you can see them changing their responses to fit their narrative.

[Edited 5/18/17 16:12pm]

That is a bit different. when you are dealing with people within the Prince world. They are not outside of the Prince.

Visa Versa. When you are dealing with people within Wendy and Lisa's world, Prince is not outside of their world. But at least on the Wendy and Lisa site, I imagine people want to give them credit for the work they have done and not constantly mention the work of their most famous collaborator, Prince. Its not like there is page on their fan sites devoted to Prince.

I know they have to get annoyed being constantly asked about him and his ability etc, and the award for Purple Rain from the American Music Awards that left off the Revolution in the title was bullshit. Collaborators however still take for granted that Prince is truely getting credit for his genius so there is a lot of "Well, I did this and this to influence him or help him along". With the exception of Lisa's story about "Strange Ways" and some vague almost obligatory statements about his 'genius'/talent, how often do they specifically state what made him a genius other than acknowledging his talent at guitar playing later in life? Mark Brown at least admitted that Prince once picked up a guitar and blew his mind on a tour bus. Prince may have needed to be knocked off his pedestal a bit at times, but you can throw a person off the pedastal too much so that people forget what made him great in the first place.

Saying Prince is a genius and super talented, then rarely stating what really made him that way (and I missing interviews in which they point out his influence on them?) and then reminding everyone on how important you were in his circle--it just makes him sound overrated.

HEll, even Morris Day admitted that he didn't realize how truely talented Prince was until he died and he watched a ton of live footage throughout the years. None of these people have true objectivity or see beyond their own involvement. Even the level-headed Michael Bland on this very site admitted that he didn't listen to Prince albums after his own involvement. For better or for worse, Prince legacy should be examined fully. Hyperbolic statements are not same thing as true respect for his talent.

OldFriends4Sale said:

purplerabbithole said:

I don't pretend to be unbiased either. But I would not go on a Wendy and Lisa site and strictly focus on how Prince wrote SOTT (the song), When Doves Cry, Darling Nikki, Beautiful ones, nearly the entirety of 1999, his first two albums, most of Controversy/Dirty Mind (Lisa was there and must have contributed some) and 20 years of underrated (albeit inconsistent) post WB music, without them... Even Lisa admitted that Prince composed, performed and recorded that song(Strange Way) for her in 2-3 hours all by himself.

[Edited 5/18/17 16:12pm]

That is a bit different. when you are dealing with people within the Prince world. They are not outside of the Prince.

[Edited 5/18/17 17:32pm]

[Edited 5/18/17 17:35pm]

[Edited 5/18/17 17:39pm]

[Edited 5/18/17 17:50pm]

purplerabbithole said:

I never said he didn't collaborate. I am saying he usually gave credit where it was due (with a few slip ups here and there). If she is implying that she deserves more credit, then she needs to prove it and be specific.

My general point here is that some people on here are attempting to portray the "if" as through it were "fact."

And if we are pretending to be all about the facts, then we get to question whether the "if" is actually being presented as fact.

But you are guilty of avoiding the subject by attacking the semantics of my argument.

This conversation is about the semantics of what Wendy and Bobby Z said. So semantics might matter?

But if we want to go into your argument, I think I've pretty much addressed those points before.If the crux of your argument is if she's intentionally being ambigious for the purposes of accepting more "credit" for SOTT, Wendy = Bad, I think we may have already addressed that by questioning whether or not she is being factual, what Bobby's corroboration means, what "a lot of stuff" mean, etc.

I'm not sure how or what I should be responding to.

With all due respect, when people say they are Prince fans, they often mean Prince and the Revolution fans.

I would say some might only be referencing Purple Rain as a film/album even.

And that in itself is a basis where these discussions are concerned. Fans should not have to like every piece of work an artist puts out but I have a tough time with fans who discredit anything post Warner Brothers or the Revolution. Not sure what music of his you like or dont' like. But fans can be biased.

I don't know where this is going really. I've liked a lot of his output. There's a lot I don't particularly care for. My modest personal collection spans his entire catalog including his first and last official releases before he passed and also includes associates, b-sides, books, etc. I don't claim non-biased, but I'm aware of some of my biases. And I'm also aware that I like newer material post Warner Brothers that some don't like too.

I am a huge Police fan and as a result it is hard for me to not love Sting. But that being said, I am biased toward Sting when he had Andy Summer and Stewart Copeland working with him. NOt as much of a Sting-solo-artist fan. So, I can't claim to be a enormous Sting fan (although I love 'An Englishmen in New York" and "Fortress around my heart"_)

That's fine for you. But I can be a Prince fan and a Prince and the NPG fan and a Prince and the Rebels fan (if you do or do not want to call them that. If I Love You Tonight slays me) and a Prince and 3EG fan. And even if I have biases to a specific sound/period, that doesn't mean I cannot be a fan the body of his work or his influence. So I think that's probably the point where I can't relate. You can't claim to be a Sting fan. I'm a Prince fan.

[Edited 5/18/17 18:09pm]

donnyenglish said:

I became a fan in 1979 and a diehard fan in 1981. Most people here became diehards in 1984. The Revolution is probably his weakest band. They were an image for MTV more than a band. They are fine and there were some worthy collaborations but I have never understood the fascination with this band or era. He got better and edgier and more creative after the revolution left (1987-1988) and was better and edgier and more creative before they got there (1980-1982).

i agree....too much worship for these people

do other fans of dead artists go thru this shit?????

Glad to hear your fandom is broader than mid-80's.

I am asking what you think " alot of stuff" means according to Wendy and Bobby Z? Wendy and/or LIsa get some credit on 3 songs in the Sign of the Times linear notes. If they want to claim more than that (specifically on finished songs included in the album), then they need to prove it and be specific. Your earlier posts state that she is stating that she did more than 3 songs. This opens the flood gates into speculation about credit on all his songs on the album.

I a

GuyBros said:

purplerabbithole said:

I never said he didn't collaborate. I am saying he usually gave credit where it was due (with a few slip ups here and there). If she is implying that she deserves more credit, then she needs to prove it and be specific.

My general point here is that some people on here are attempting to portray the "if" as through it were "fact."

And if we are pretending to be all about the facts, then we get to question whether the "if" is actually being presented as fact.

I don't know where this is going really. I've liked a lot of his output. There's a lot I don't particularly care for. My modest personal collection spans his entire catalog including his first and last official releases before he passed and also includes associates, b-sides, books, etc. I don't claim non-biased, but I'm aware of some of my biases. And I'm also aware that I like newer material post Warner Brothers that some don't like too.

I am a huge Police fan and as a result it is hard for me to not love Sting. But that being said, I am biased toward Sting when he had Andy Summer and Stewart Copeland working with him. NOt as much of a Sting-solo-artist fan. So, I can't claim to be a enormous Sting fan (although I love 'An Englishmen in New York" and "Fortress around my heart"_)

That's fine for you. But I can be a Prince fan and a Prince and the NPG fan and a Prince and the Rebels fan (if you do or do not want to call them that. If I Love You Tonight slays me) and a Prince and 3EG fan. And even if I have biases to a specific sound/period, that doesn't mean I cannot be a fan the body of his work or his influence. So I think that's probably the point where I can't relate. You can't claim to be a Sting fan. I'm a Prince fan.

[Edited 5/18/17 18:09pm]

[Edited 5/18/17 18:49pm]

luvsexy4all said:

do other fans of dead artists go thru this shit?????

LOL
Prince did this

everyone woman he talked to comes out of the woodwork

in their purple heels and gold heals and dresses they are fighting like roosters

cryptic Prince leaves messages and signs everywhere so after his death he has a remnant expecting him to show up alive

a Vault of music and mystic

a subculture a utopian world

Prince did this lol

Yep, But like Sheila E, and other Prince associates, Prince is always connected and always will be.
Again, people are not talking about Prince's whole career in connection 2 this.
I think Sheila E is the only one that I actually read/heard get annoyed at the insistence of talking about Prince. And in the moment, rightfully so.
Just the periods they were with Prince. So when people start dealing with the Exodus, they talk about people who were in the camp during the time periods of the recordings etc

.

So it is expected that the SOTT music which originate as the Dream Factory sesssion and encompasses the 1985-1986 period of time, the Revolution members and people in the camp will automatically be connected to it.

.

But I have interviews with them where they are always being straight up about the music. Like I have a Chicagosound interview from mayb 2010/2011 where Lisa & Wendy are going full into a song like Darling Nikki saying that is all Prince and talking about his furious style of drumming and such. I've never read anything where they are taking credit for stuff they did not do or overstating their connection. Yes you are missing where they've talked about Prince's genius from Bobby Z remembering when he first met Prince and what he witnessed in their connection to say "This was someone I could dedicate my whole life career to" to many other things the others have said.

.

With the hysteria found among Prince fans, (just like we see it with those exlovers fighting each other) that wacky energy is among the fans too. The way people go after Prince and anyone connected to him, exaggerating and flaming things with no credible space.

purplerabbithole said:

Visa Versa. When you are dealing with people within Wendy and Lisa's world, Prince is not outside of their world. But at least on the Wendy and Lisa site, I imagine people want to give them credit for the work they have done and not constantly mention the work of their most famous collaborator, Prince. Its not like there is page on their fan sites devoted to Prince.

I know they have to get annoyed being constantly asked about him and his ability etc, and the award for Purple Rain from the American Music Awards that left off the Revolution in the title was bullshit. Collaborators however still take for granted that Prince is truely getting credit for his genius so there is a lot of "Well, I did this and this to influence him or help him along". With the exception of Lisa's story about "Strange Ways" and some vague almost obligatory statements about his 'genius'/talent, how often do they specifically state what made him a genius other than acknowledging his talent at guitar playing later in life? Mark Brown at least admitted that Prince once picked up a guitar and blew his mind on a tour bus. Prince may have needed to be knocked off his pedestal a bit at times, but you can throw a person off the pedastal too much so that people forget what made him great in the first place.

Saying Prince is a genius and super talented, then rarely stating what really made him that way (and I missing interviews in which they point out his influence on them?) and then reminding everyone on how important you were in his circle--it just makes him sound overrated.

HEll, even Morris Day admitted that he didn't realize how truely talented Prince was until he died and he watched a ton of live footage throughout the years. None of these people have true objectivity or see beyond their own involvement. Even the level-headed Michael Bland on this very site admitted that he didn't listen to Prince albums after his own involvement. For better or for worse, Prince legacy should be examined fully. Hyperbolic statements are not same thing as true respect for his talent.

OldFriends4Sale said:

That is a bit different. when you are dealing with people within the Prince world. They are not outside of the Prince.

[Edited 5/18/17 17:32pm]

[Edited 5/18/17 17:35pm]

[Edited 5/18/17 17:39pm]

[Edited 5/18/17 17:50pm]

purplerabbithole said:

Glad to hear your fandom is broader than mid-80's.

Ok.

I forget sometimes that one may have to provide receipts and credentials around here.

I am asking what you think " alot of stuff" means according to Wendy and Bobby Z? Wendy and/or LIsa get some credit on 3 songs in the Sign of the Times linear notes.

I think it's true that Wendy and Lisa and Bobby and the Revolution worked on a lot of stuff throughout the catalogue (untrue?) and this includes the 3 songs they are credited for on SOTT. Having credits on 3/16 tracks and enough playable material to cover almost one side of vinyl by themselves, it might not be a stretch to say that alone is "a lot." But I don't have any need to stan about it. The album is good to listen to, period! Even if they had no influence on the album, I enjoy it. And I don't particularly care for all of the songs they are credited on.

But does this matter until you or anybody can establish that the "if" is actually fact?

GuyBros said:

purplerabbithole said:

Glad to hear your fandom is broader than mid-80's.

Ok.

I forget sometimes that one may have to provide receipts and credentials around here.

I am asking what you think " alot of stuff" means according to Wendy and Bobby Z? Wendy and/or LIsa get some credit on 3 songs in the Sign of the Times linear notes.

I think it's true that Wendy and Lisa and Bobby and the Revolution worked on a lot of stuff throughout the catalogue (untrue?) and this includes the 3 songs they are credited for on SOTT. Having credits on 3/16 tracks and enough playable material to cover almost one side of vinyl by themselves, it might not be a stretch to say that alone is "a lot." But I don't have any need to stan about it. The album is good to listen to, period! Even if they had no influence on the album, I enjoy it. And I don't particularly care for all of the songs they are credited on.

But does this matter until you or anybody can establish that the "if" is actually fact?

1.) I am not a moderater so how can I can demand anyting like credentials etc. I am not being a Prince snob. I just wanted to know what kind of fan I was debating with. (okay, I am a little defensive but who am I to demand people to provide anything?

2.) one side of vinyl? Just asking for clarification? Are you talking about the three tracks? and/or the Dream Factory stuff that they are more strongly involved in? BTW--I don't think they wrote most of Strange Relationship out of some vague notion on Prince's part (its too autobiographical). I think it is definitely written by Prince but at one point they contributed accompanyment, instrumentals etc.

1.) I am not a moderater so how can I can demand anyting like credentials etc. I am not being a Prince snob. I just wanted to know what kind of fan I was debating with. (okay, I am a little defensive but who am I to demand people to provide anything?

Exactly.

2.) one side of vinyl? Just asking for clarification? Are you talking about the three tracks? , instrumentals etc.

I'm talking about the three tracks they are credited on. About 17-18 minutes should be about enough?

[Edited 5/18/17 20:13pm]

purplerabbithole said:

GuyBros said:

I think it's true that Wendy and Lisa and Bobby and the Revolution worked on a lot of stuff throughout the catalogue (untrue?) and this includes the 3 songs they are credited for on SOTT. Having credits on 3/16 tracks and enough playable material to cover almost one side of vinyl by themselves, it might not be a stretch to say that alone is "a lot." But I don't have any need to stan about it. The album is good to listen to, period! Even if they had no influence on the album, I enjoy it. And I don't particularly care for all of the songs they are credited on.

But does this matter until you or anybody can establish that the "if" is actually fact?

1.) I am not a moderater so how can I can demand anyting like credentials etc. I am not being a Prince snob. I just wanted to know what kind of fan I was debating with. (okay, I am a little defensive but who am I to demand people to provide anything?

2.) one side of vinyl? Just asking for clarification? Are you talking about the three tracks? and/or the Dream Factory stuff that they are more strongly involved in? BTW--I don't think they wrote most of Strange Relationship out of some vague notion on Prince's part (its too autobiographical). I think it is definitely written by Prince but at one point they contributed accompanyment, instrumentals etc.

who said they wrote most of Strange Relationship
(too autobiographical) can be said about a lot of Prince song, yet still be fictional. The theme of the issue is very universal. A lot of people have gone through that in various stages.

so a little timeline of the song

1. Strange Relationship 1982 demo

2. Strange Relationshp/International Lover/Do Me Baby/Wednesay Prince on piano playing with lyrics

3. Strange Relationship @ 45:13min [Billy's Sunglasses] 51:08min 1984 band rehearsal -rock expression

4a. Strange Relationship 1985 4.7.1985 Purple Rain tour soundcheck

4b. Strange Relationship 1985

Prince Talks Interview April 1985

Prince is fiddling with the tape deck inside the T-Bird.
On low volume comes his unreleased "Old Friends 4 Sale,"
an arrow-to-the-heart rock ballad about trust and loss.
Unlike "Positively 4th Street" -- which Bob Dylan reputedly named after a nearby Minneapolis block --
the lyrics are sad, not bitter. "I don't know too much about Dylan," says Prince, "but I respect him a lot. 'All Along the Watchtower' is my favorite of his. I heard it first from Jimi Hendrix."
"Old Friends 4 Sale" ends,
and on comes "Strange Relationships," and as-yet-unreleased dance tune.
"Is it too much?" asks Prince about playing his own songs in his own car.
"Not long ago I was driving around L.A. with [a well-known rock star], and all he did was play his own stuff over and over. If it gets too much, just tell me."

An ignition turns. "Wait," calls Prince, remembering something. He grabs a tape off the T-Bird seat and yells to his father, "I got something for you to listen to. Lisa [Coleman] and Wendy [Melvoin] have been working on these in L.A." Prince throws the tape, which the two female members of his band have mixed, and his father catches it with one hand. Nelson nods okay and pulls his car behind his son's in the alley. Closely tailing Prince through North Minneapolis, he waves and smiles whenever we look back. It's impossible to believe that the gun-toting geezer in Purple Rain was modeled after John Nelson.

5a. Strange Relationship 1986 -Dream Factory

added instruments of sitar sound from the Fairlight CMI, tambourine, congas, finger cybals,

wooden flute

Prince singing in his normal register

5b. Strange Relationship 1986 -Camille

Camille voice used, wood flute 'sitar' removed other sounds minimized

5c. Eric Leads adds a sax part, but Prince removes it

6. Strange Relationship 1987 -Sign o the Time official release

Who is saying that they wrote most of Strange Relationship?

Well, apparently, GuyBros seems to be assuming that that is the case when he or she claims that the 18 minutes that those songs use up on the album are 'by themselves'.

Having credits on 3/16 tracks and enough playable material to cover almost one side of vinyl by themselves

OldFriends4Sale said:

purplerabbithole said:

1.) I am not a moderater so how can I can demand anyting like credentials etc. I am not being a Prince snob. I just wanted to know what kind of fan I was debating with. (okay, I am a little defensive but who am I to demand people to provide anything?

2.) one side of vinyl? Just asking for clarification? Are you talking about the three tracks? and/or the Dream Factory stuff that they are more strongly involved in? BTW--I don't think they wrote most of Strange Relationship out of some vague notion on Prince's part (its too autobiographical). I think it is definitely written by Prince but at one point they contributed accompanyment, instrumentals etc.

who said they wrote most of Strange Relationship
(too autobiographical) can be said about a lot of Prince song, yet still be fictional. The theme of the issue is very universal. A lot of people have gone through that in various stages.

so a little timeline of the song

1. Strange Relationship 1982 demo

2. Strange Relationshp/International Lover/Do Me Baby/Wednesay Prince on piano playing with lyrics

3. Strange Relationship @ 45:13min [Billy's Sunglasses] 51:08min 1984 band rehearsal -rock expression

4a. Strange Relationship 1985 4.7.1985 Purple Rain tour soundcheck

4b. Strange Relationship 1985

Prince Talks Interview April 1985

Prince is fiddling with the tape deck inside the T-Bird.
On low volume comes his unreleased "Old Friends 4 Sale,"
an arrow-to-the-heart rock ballad about trust and loss.
Unlike "Positively 4th Street" -- which Bob Dylan reputedly named after a nearby Minneapolis block --
the lyrics are sad, not bitter. "I don't know too much about Dylan," says Prince, "but I respect him a lot. 'All Along the Watchtower' is my favorite of his. I heard it first from Jimi Hendrix."
"Old Friends 4 Sale" ends,
and on comes "Strange Relationships," and as-yet-unreleased dance tune.
"Is it too much?" asks Prince about playing his own songs in his own car.
"Not long ago I was driving around L.A. with [a well-known rock star], and all he did was play his own stuff over and over. If it gets too much, just tell me."

An ignition turns. "Wait," calls Prince, remembering something. He grabs a tape off the T-Bird seat and yells to his father, "I got something for you to listen to. Lisa [Coleman] and Wendy [Melvoin] have been working on these in L.A." Prince throws the tape, which the two female members of his band have mixed, and his father catches it with one hand. Nelson nods okay and pulls his car behind his son's in the alley. Closely tailing Prince through North Minneapolis, he waves and smiles whenever we look back. It's impossible to believe that the gun-toting geezer in Purple Rain was modeled after John Nelson.

5a. Strange Relationship 1986 -Dream Factory

added instruments of sitar sound from the Fairlight CMI, tambourine, congas, finger cybals,

wooden flute

Prince singing in his normal register

5b. Strange Relationship 1986 -Camille

Camille voice used, wood flute 'sitar' removed other sounds minimized

5c. Eric Leads adds a sax part, but Prince removes it

6. Strange Relationship 1987 -Sign o the Time official release

[Edited 5/18/17 21:09pm]

[Edited 5/18/17 21:10pm]

This 1982-1986 timeline shows how easily the band had a lot to do with the song. And this was a very common thing that would happen. Including the protege music.

People still say the Time music 'is ALL Prince' but yet don't realize Morris Day played drums on a lot of the tracks, Lisa Coleman Dez Dickerson Jesse Johnson and the Time band rehearsals had a lot to do with the music.
I'm not saying it isn't about Susannah Melvoin, but I doubt he was treating her like that in 1983/84 when some of the lyrics were being sung. But again songs can be about multiple events/people etc

purplerabbithole said:

Who is saying that they wrote most of Strange Relationship?

Well, apparently, Girl Bros seems to be assuming that that is the case when he or she claims that the 18 minutes that those songs use up on the album are 'by themselves'.

Having credits on 3/16 tracks and enough playable material to cover almost one side of vinyl by themselves

How could you not say its autobiographical? Its like he is describing how he treated Susannah?

who said they wrote most of Strange Relationship
(too autobiographical) can be said about a lot of Prince song, yet still be fictional. The theme of the issue is very universal. A lot of people have gone through that in various stages.

so a little timeline of the song

1. Strange Relationship 1982 demo

2. Strange Relationshp/International Lover/Do Me Baby/Wednesay Prince on piano playing with lyrics

3. Strange Relationship @ 45:13min [Billy's Sunglasses] 51:08min 1984 band rehearsal -rock expression

4a. Strange Relationship 1985 4.7.1985 Purple Rain tour soundcheck

4b. Strange Relationship 1985

Prince Talks Interview April 1985

Prince is fiddling with the tape deck inside the T-Bird.
On low volume comes his unreleased "Old Friends 4 Sale,"
an arrow-to-the-heart rock ballad about trust and loss.
Unlike "Positively 4th Street" -- which Bob Dylan reputedly named after a nearby Minneapolis block --
the lyrics are sad, not bitter. "I don't know too much about Dylan," says Prince, "but I respect him a lot. 'All Along the Watchtower' is my favorite of his. I heard it first from Jimi Hendrix."
"Old Friends 4 Sale" ends,
and on comes "Strange Relationships," and as-yet-unreleased dance tune.
"Is it too much?" asks Prince about playing his own songs in his own car.
"Not long ago I was driving around L.A. with [a well-known rock star], and all he did was play his own stuff over and over. If it gets too much, just tell me."

An ignition turns. "Wait," calls Prince, remembering something. He grabs a tape off the T-Bird seat and yells to his father, "I got something for you to listen to. Lisa [Coleman] and Wendy [Melvoin] have been working on these in L.A." Prince throws the tape, which the two female members of his band have mixed, and his father catches it with one hand. Nelson nods okay and pulls his car behind his son's in the alley. Closely tailing Prince through North Minneapolis, he waves and smiles whenever we look back. It's impossible to believe that the gun-toting geezer in Purple Rain was modeled after John Nelson.

5a. Strange Relationship 1986 -Dream Factory

added instruments of sitar sound from the Fairlight CMI, tambourine, congas, finger cybals,

wooden flute

Prince singing in his normal register

5b. Strange Relationship 1986 -Camille

Camille voice used, wood flute 'sitar' removed other sounds minimized

5c. Eric Leads adds a sax part, but Prince removes it

6. Strange Relationship 1987 -Sign o the Time official release

purplerabbithole said:

Who is saying that they wrote most of Strange Relationship?

Well, apparently, GuyBros seems to be assuming that that is the case when he or she claims that the 18 minutes that those songs use up on the album are 'by themselves'.

I'm saying that those 3 songs, by themselves, are enough to fill the sides of vinyl. Could have been worded differently. But yeah, that's more than enough for one side of Vinyl that they are listed as contributing to. Contextually, it's probably very obvious to others that all of those songs which feature Prince's vocals could not at be assumed to have been made solely by the Revolution "by themselves."

okay, I hear ya. My apologies for nitpicking.

Goodnight.

GuyBros said:

purplerabbithole said:

Who is saying that they wrote most of Strange Relationship?

Well, apparently, GuyBros seems to be assuming that that is the case when he or she claims that the 18 minutes that those songs use up on the album are 'by themselves'.

I'm saying that those 3 songs, by themselves, are enough to fill the sides of vinyl. Could have been worded differently. But yeah, that's more than enough for one side of Vinyl that they are listed as contributing to. Contextually, it's probably very obvious to others that all of those songs which feature Prince's vocals could not at be assumed to have been made solely by the Revolution "by themselves."

luvsexy4all said:

donnyenglish said:

I became a fan in 1979 and a diehard fan in 1981. Most people here became diehards in 1984. The Revolution is probably his weakest band. They were an image for MTV more than a band. They are fine and there were some worthy collaborations but I have never understood the fascination with this band or era. He got better and edgier and more creative after the revolution left (1987-1988) and was better and edgier and more creative before they got there (1980-1982).

i agree....too much worship for these people

Prince was a much better musician and singer in the 2000s but he still couldn't touch 1985 Prince

.

a band being top notch means nothing. Some of the best shows were from the earliest days without all of the technological advances

.

The Revolution was fierce and had Prince's music sound and vision is what makes the magic happen.

.

And when said 'was better and edgier and more creative before they got there' that isn't even realistic. the most creative period with the most edgiest stuff with the largest output of music was 1982-1986 not to mention 1980-1982 is still Bobby Z Lisa Coleman Brown Mark Dr Fink.

.

Now this is what 'stanning' is. You 2 are not dealing with fact.

OldFriends4Sale said:

They are stanning because they have their opinions that differ from the mainstream notion that Revolution Prince is the best Prince? Its all opinion no matter how you want to spin it.

My opinion for what its worth (apparently not much unless its heavily pro-Revolution) is that Prince's music in the 80's was stronger in terms of songwriting and innovation (due to many factors and just not the talents of the Revolution. Due to the Revolution and its members' honesty with him, due to his youth and fearlessness, due to more focus on creating music and less on perfecting the stage performance, due to the openness of the 80's music scene, due to Prince feeling okay incorporating "white" music into his funk). His stage performances however are less consistently great. There is lots of humor and sexiness but his dancing in the earlier days is a bit too much James Brown and his singing is better live in later years. (too much falsetto in the early 80's) The jam sessions are great though.

THe 90's was a mixed bag (and the more obscure stuff like the TRuth and Gold Experience and deep cut songs like "And God Created Women was the better stuff of that period. IMO) Live he was a bit gaudy and humorless but his dancing and guitar playing was stellar.

2000's Prince (as a songwriter) was Prince being mostly pretty solid but a bit stiff sometimes (even preachy)..no extreme lows like Jughead (but some dull music here and there--I am not a fan of most of the Planet Earth album [even W and L contributions didn't help there] and most of the MLPS sound album), some extreme highs in these years (AOL and many individual songs) and also proficient but less inspired songs as well. . Performance wise, I think Prince was best in the last 15 years of his life. NO more splits, but in 2011, he was still dancing his ass off, his guitar playing was stellar and his singing was strong. His stage presense seemed light and humorous like the 80's (minus the extreme sensualness) but also shockingly proficient. His Beautiful ones live in 2011 was wonderful and the best I have heard. I love His variations on older songs like SOmething in the Water and I could never take the place of your man.

Older musicians tend to have to rely on live performance a bit more because the music industry is a youth driven market. NO surprise he had to.

OldFriends4Sale said:

luvsexy4all said:

i agree....too much worship for these people

Prince was a much better musician and singer in the 2000s but he still couldn't touch 1985 Prince

.

a band being top notch means nothing. Some of the best shows were from the earliest days without all of the technological advances

.

The Revolution was fierce and had Prince's music sound and vision is what makes the magic happen.

.

And when said 'was better and edgier and more creative before they got there' that isn't even realistic. the most creative period with the most edgiest stuff with the largest output of music was 1982-1986 not to mention 1980-1982 is still Bobby Z Lisa Coleman Brown Mark Dr Fink.

.

Now this is what 'stanning' is. You 2 are not dealing with fact.

No they are stanning because they are being ridiculous in their approach. It is based only on emotional reaction, not fact. It is one of those times I ask ' R U a real fan?'

.

0. what you stated in the bold is what made Prince & the Revolution and that period of the 1982-1986 period so wonderful.

.

1. Prince from the beginning incorporated 'white' music into his funk. From the beginning. Folk music is strong in his music from the beginning. Disco and Rock were mixed in from the beginning. His early music seemed to have a lot of 'ballad' type songs, not a lot of 'funk' yet. The unreleased demos and a lot of the studio sessions seemed to have always been a mix of rock funk folk rnb folk

.

2. Too much falsetto... That is how he did most of his song, didn't always translate well live, but when it did, the magic popped. Also in the early days Prince didn't really start doing much of his 'James Brown' until 1986 -Parade. I don't think he did a lot of that until the 1990s when it was A LOT. In the early days he was mostly on the ax he didn't even play piano live much until 1982/83 at the earliest.

.

But you and I overall, I'm agreeing with your post. Pretty consistent. The Beautiful Ones on the PR tour though was the best.

purplerabbithole said:

They are stanning because they have their opinions that differ from the mainstream notion that Revolution Prince is the best Prince? Its all opinion no matter how you want to spin it.

My opinion for what its worth (apparently not much unless its heavily pro-Revolution) is that Prince's music in the 80's was stronger in terms of songwriting and innovation (due to many factors and just not the talents of the Revolution. Due to the Revolution and its members' honesty with him, due to his youth and fearlessness, due to more focus on creating music and less on perfecting the stage performance, due to the openness of the 80's music scene, due to Prince feeling okay incorporating "white" music into his funk). His stage performances however are less consistently great. There is lots of humor and sexiness but his dancing in the earlier days is a bit too much James Brown and his singing is better live in later years. (too much falsetto in the early 80's) The jam sessions are great though.

THe 90's was a mixed bag (and the more obscure stuff like the TRuth and Gold Experience and deep cut songs like "And God Created Women was the better stuff of that period. IMO) Live he was a bit gaudy and humorless but his dancing and guitar playing was stellar.

2000's Prince (as a songwriter) was Prince being mostly pretty solid but a bit stiff sometimes (even preachy)..no extreme lows like Jughead (but some dull music here and there--I am not a fan of most of the Planet Earth album [even W and L contributions didn't help there] and most of the MLPS sound album), some extreme highs in these years (AOL and many individual songs) and also proficient but less inspired songs as well. . Performance wise, I think Prince was best in the last 15 years of his life. NO more splits, but in 2011, he was still dancing his ass off, his guitar playing was stellar and his singing was strong. His stage presense seemed light and humorous like the 80's (minus the extreme sensualness) but also shockingly proficient. His Beautiful ones live in 2011 was wonderful and the best I have heard. I love His variations on older songs like SOmething in the Water and I could never take the place of your man.

Older musicians tend to have to rely on live performance a bit more because the music industry is a youth driven market. NO surprise he had to.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Prince was a much better musician and singer in the 2000s but he still couldn't touch 1985 Prince

.

a band being top notch means nothing. Some of the best shows were from the earliest days without all of the technological advances

.

The Revolution was fierce and had Prince's music sound and vision is what makes the magic happen.

.

And when said 'was better and edgier and more creative before they got there' that isn't even realistic. the most creative period with the most edgiest stuff with the largest output of music was 1982-1986 not to mention 1980-1982 is still Bobby Z Lisa Coleman Brown Mark Dr Fink.

.

Now this is what 'stanning' is. You 2 are not dealing with fact.

paulludvig said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

who said they wrote most of Strange Relationship
(too autobiographical) can be said about a lot of Prince song, yet still be fictional. The theme of the issue is very universal. A lot of people have gone through that in various stages.

so a little timeline of the song

1. Strange Relationship 1982 demo

2. Strange Relationshp/International Lover/Do Me Baby/Wednesay Prince on piano playing with lyrics

3. Strange Relationship @ 45:13min [Billy's Sunglasses] 51:08min 1984 band rehearsal -rock expression

4a. Strange Relationship 1985 4.7.1985 Purple Rain tour soundcheck

4b. Strange Relationship 1985

Prince Talks Interview April 1985

Prince is fiddling with the tape deck inside the T-Bird.
On low volume comes his unreleased "Old Friends 4 Sale,"
an arrow-to-the-heart rock ballad about trust and loss.
Unlike "Positively 4th Street" -- which Bob Dylan reputedly named after a nearby Minneapolis block --
the lyrics are sad, not bitter. "I don't know too much about Dylan," says Prince, "but I respect him a lot. 'All Along the Watchtower' is my favorite of his. I heard it first from Jimi Hendrix."
"Old Friends 4 Sale" ends,
and on comes "Strange Relationships," and as-yet-unreleased dance tune.
"Is it too much?" asks Prince about playing his own songs in his own car.
"Not long ago I was driving around L.A. with [a well-known rock star], and all he did was play his own stuff over and over. If it gets too much, just tell me."

An ignition turns. "Wait," calls Prince, remembering something. He grabs a tape off the T-Bird seat and yells to his father, "I got something for you to listen to. Lisa [Coleman] and Wendy [Melvoin] have been working on these in L.A." Prince throws the tape, which the two female members of his band have mixed, and his father catches it with one hand. Nelson nods okay and pulls his car behind his son's in the alley. Closely tailing Prince through North Minneapolis, he waves and smiles whenever we look back. It's impossible to believe that the gun-toting geezer in Purple Rain was modeled after John Nelson.

5a. Strange Relationship 1986 -Dream Factory

added instruments of sitar sound from the Fairlight CMI, tambourine, congas, finger cybals,

wooden flute

Prince singing in his normal register

5b. Strange Relationship 1986 -Camille

Camille voice used, wood flute 'sitar' removed other sounds minimized

5c. Eric Leads adds a sax part, but Prince removes it

6. Strange Relationship 1987 -Sign o the Time official release

This is a good summary of the genesis of the song. And it clearly shows that Strange Relationship was a song by Prince that be allowed W&L to try their hands on. He obviously didn't care for their contribution as most of it was later removed.

wrong, it shows a progression of the song. Wendy & Lisa's contrabution as well as the full bands input in sessions prior to the addition of the sitar, flute, congas etc isn't the first level of contrabution. It started in 1983.

.

Musically the DF version is much more rich and keeps my attention in the long run.

OldFriends4Sale said:

paulludvig said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

wrong, it shows a progression of the song. Wendy & Lisa's contrabution as well as the full bands input in sessions prior to the addition of the sitar, flute, congas etc isn't the first level of contrabution. It started in 1983.

.

Musically the DF version is much more rich and keeps my attention in the long run.

The song was pretty much the same from the beginning. W&L added some instrumentation to one of the versions. Their input was more og less removed om the final version.

have u heard the 82 demo? I've never heard it

each progression 2 me sound different, i need to hear the demo

[Edited 5/19/17 9:33am]

OldFriends4Sale said:

OldFriends4Sale said: