LBrent said:

PennyPurple said:

Well actually every single one of us has issues in our lives but we don't treat people that way. It was almost as if when he was done with somebody, he just threw them away. I know people used him too. I think people wanted their careers to take off and he was a stepping stone for them.

;

We can try to make excuses for him, but some of us has been thru a lot worse, then he went thru during our childhoods.

.

Again, I love Prince and his music, but I don't have to like what he did to people. Mayte seems to have a kind heart. She didn't want to make waves where he was concerned. Heck she could have wrote a book that would really slam him, and she didn't. I think that she still thinks that they will be together again either in Heaven or another life.

.

I think when he treated Mayte good it was really good, when he treated her bad, it was really, really bad.

Yes, and I think when some folks left his employ P felt that same sense of abandonment.

As I read the book, I could see paralleis in keeping folks "bookmarked"...like band members being told they were gonna be used then projects not materializing or being shelved.

Yes, he cared for them and enjoyed doing the projects, but I think sometimes he didn't want the project to end cuz then they might leave. Same with salary, if they needed him they had to stay.

I remember him saying something to Morris Day along the lines of if he would just trust P and follow what he was outlining he'd have a career or something like that, but MD had had enough and left.

I think every time someone left P whether romantic/business/friend/family, he felt the same betrayal triggers.

Something else I think about when he was asked why he needed to do everything on an album, play everything, sing everything...and P's answe broke my heart. He said he needed to do everything cuz "what if evrybody leaves me?"

I think his fear of abandonment had him leave folks he felt too close to so they wouldn't leave him first.

All very twisted and complicated feelings.

Wow, LBrent, about the "What if everybody leaves me?" This is the first time I'm hearing about him saying that, but those words he said are really deep, sadly deep. I'm gonna have to try and dig up that interview/source.

206Michelle said:

amethyst68 said:

I don't like making excuses for bad behavior but I think you need to look at his actions in consideration of his abandoment issues. His former manager stated he would even say Prince had diagnosable abandonment issues. With that being said, his actions toward Mayte towards the end of their marriage would be expected.

I totally hear what you are saying, amethyst68. I think that it's possible to see the connection between the abandonment issues and his actions toward Mayte without excusing his behavior.

.

I was a psychology major in college and there's been a lot of research done on attachment between children and caregivers. I think that based on his tumultuous childhood, Prince may have had some significant attachment issues. Amethyst68, I think that when you mention abandonment issues and I mention attachment issues, we are probably talking about the same thing using different terms.

.

Going back to the book, Mayte tells a couple of stories about Prince's father. How many stories does Mayte have about Prince's mother? NONE. Prince's mom is mentioned a couple of times in the book, in passing. Her absence is very telling, in my opinion.

.

How much do Prince fans know about his mother? Very little. We some basic details about her life. But Prince NEVER (or almost never) talked about her...That was his MAMA...And he NEVER (or almost never) talked about her...Think about that.

.

Prince had abandonment/attachment issues due to experiences that occurred when he was a child. These experiences were outside of his control. He could not change the past. What he could change was how he dealt with what happenned to him in the past. When Prince became an adult, what was within his control was how he dealt with these experiences. This goes back to the whole issue of free will.

.

Prince certainly had the means to see a really good therapist to help him deal with these abandonment/attachment issues. Maybe he did see a therapist. Even so, he probably could have used more therapy. Prayer has a place in healing. Music has a place in healing. Professional help has a place in healing, whether that help be medical, psychological, physical therapy, or whatever.

.

As someone else wrote brilliantly, Prince had within him the seeds of his own destruction. I think that some of his self-destructive qualities were his avoidant/escapist tendences and his unwillingness to seek help.

Was Prince obligated to talk about his mother to the media and fans? People are in a rush to psycho analyze Prince like armchair quartebacks. Did it ever occur that some things Prince felt was nobody's damn business. Secondly, it's interesting to see how death really brings out the disturbing voyeurism in people who glee in people's tragedy.

206Michelle said:

PennyPurple said:

Well actually every single one of us has issues in our lives but we don't treat people that way. It was almost as if when he was done with somebody, he just threw them away. I know people used him too. I think people wanted their careers to take off and he was a stepping stone for them.

;

We can try to make excuses for him, but some of us has been thru a lot worse, then he went thru during our childhoods.

.

Again, I love Prince and his music, but I don't have to like what he did to people. Mayte seems to have a kind heart. She didn't want to make waves where he was concerned. Heck she could have wrote a book that would really slam him, and she didn't. I think that she still thinks that they will be together again either in Heaven or another life.

.

I think when he treated Mayte good it was really good, when he treated her bad, it was really, really bad.

PennyPurple, I totally agree.

.

Like I said, while he probably had some serious attachment issues from childhood over which he had no control, once he became an adult, it was within his control to deal with these traumatic experiences. He prayed. He made music. He could have gotten therapy. Maybe he did go to therapy. In my opinion, if he did, it wasn't enough.

.

Therapy can be hard, very hard. But sometimes, life throws things at a person that overwhelms his or her coping skills. In these situations, often times the only thing that a person can do is to (a) admit that he or she can't handle the issues and (b) seek help/support for dealing with the issues.

.

This goes back to the whole issue of free will. Prince could have sought out professional help for his abandonment issues. He certainly had the means to receive top-notch professional help. He could have sought out professional help in order to deal with the loss of his son. Maybe he did, but I suspect that he did not receive professional help. Instead, he decided to believe the nonsense that his son's death was a punishment from God. He decided to have everything reminding him of Amiir and Mayte destroyed, including Amiir's ashes.

.

There's no denying it, he made bad choices. Me left Mayte and did her dirty. He married Manuela, and what happened...5 years later, they got a divorce. He never should have married Mani.

.

I love the man, I love his music, but he was a flawed genius. And when it came to his personal relationships, he was a mess, a boiling hot mess. I won't stop loving him because of his flaws and his bad choices. I acknowledge the bad things that he did, I don't like the bad things that he did, but I can't hate the man. His music means too much to me. Shoot, Mayte still loves him, and if SHE can love him in spite of everything that he did to her, then I can give him my fan love too.

Beautifully expressed...so appreciate Mayte's grace and dignity and forgiveness...it oozes from every page. Prince once said Mayte was the only one who had never showed him any malice. If only he could have treasured that character trait over control. Grateful she respectfully kept their intimate moments private, it shows those times were sacred to her. Big thanks to PennyPurple for this thread and for all who comment and share so thoughtfully and with such great insight and caring.

206Michelle said:

LBrent said:

Yes, and I think when some folks left his employ P felt that same sense of abandonment.

As I read the book, I could see paralleis in keeping folks "bookmarked"...like band members being told they were gonna be used then projects not materializing or being shelved.

Yes, he cared for them and enjoyed doing the projects, but I think sometimes he didn't want the project to end cuz then they might leave. Same with salary, if they needed him they had to stay.

I remember him saying something to Morris Day along the lines of if he would just trust P and follow what he was outlining he'd have a career or something like that, but MD had had enough and left.

I think every time someone left P whether romantic/business/friend/family, he felt the same betrayal triggers.

Something else I think about when he was asked why he needed to do everything on an album, play everything, sing everything...and P's answe broke my heart. He said he needed to do everything cuz "what if evrybody leaves me?"

I think his fear of abandonment had him leave folks he felt too close to so they wouldn't leave him first.

All very twisted and complicated feelings.

Wow, LBrent, about the "What if everybody leaves me?" This is the first time I'm hearing about him saying that, but those words he said are really deep, sadly deep. I'm gonna have to try and dig up that interview/source.

I'm not positive but I think he said it Owen Husney or Chris Moon. I know it was way back in the day and it's even mentioned here on the Org in conversations since 4/21.

Yes, very deep. That fear of abandonment followed him around like a damned shadow his entire life.

206Michelle said:

PennyPurple said:

Well actually every single one of us has issues in our lives but we don't treat people that way. It was almost as if when he was done with somebody, he just threw them away. I know people used him too. I think people wanted their careers to take off and he was a stepping stone for them.

;

We can try to make excuses for him, but some of us has been thru a lot worse, then he went thru during our childhoods.

.

Again, I love Prince and his music, but I don't have to like what he did to people. Mayte seems to have a kind heart. She didn't want to make waves where he was concerned. Heck she could have wrote a book that would really slam him, and she didn't. I think that she still thinks that they will be together again either in Heaven or another life.

.

I think when he treated Mayte good it was really good, when he treated her bad, it was really, really bad.

PennyPurple, I totally agree.

.

Like I said, while he probably had some serious attachment issues from childhood over which he had no control, once he became an adult, it was within his control to deal with these traumatic experiences. He prayed. He made music. He could have gotten therapy. Maybe he did go to therapy. In my opinion, if he did, it wasn't enough.

.

Therapy can be hard, very hard. But sometimes, life throws things at a person that overwhelms his or her coping skills. In these situations, often times the only thing that a person can do is to (a) admit that he or she can't handle the issues and (b) seek help/support for dealing with the issues.

.

This goes back to the whole issue of free will. Prince could have sought out professional help for his abandonment issues. He certainly had the means to receive top-notch professional help. He could have sought out professional help in order to deal with the loss of his son. Maybe he did, but I suspect that he did not receive professional help. Instead, he decided to believe the nonsense that his son's death was a punishment from God. He decided to have everything reminding him of Amiir and Mayte destroyed, including Amiir's ashes.

.

There's no denying it, he made bad choices. Me left Mayte and did her dirty. He married Manuela, and what happened...5 years later, they got a divorce. He never should have married Mani.

.

I love the man, I love his music, but he was a flawed genius. And when it came to his personal relationships, he was a mess, a boiling hot mess. I won't stop loving him because of his flaws and his bad choices. I acknowledge the bad things that he did, I don't like the bad things that he did, but I can't hate the man. His music means too much to me. Shoot, Mayte still loves him, and if SHE can love him in spite of everything that he did to her, then I can give him my fan love too.

I seem to remember him sarcasticly mentioned having seen a therapist many years ago but clearly that didn't continue.

I don't think he had the trust capacity to allow himself to be that vulnerable. He could barely manage limited vulnerability in a relationship with a person he loved.

bashraka said:

206Michelle said:

I totally hear what you are saying, amethyst68. I think that it's possible to see the connection between the abandonment issues and his actions toward Mayte without excusing his behavior.

.

I was a psychology major in college and there's been a lot of research done on attachment between children and caregivers. I think that based on his tumultuous childhood, Prince may have had some significant attachment issues. Amethyst68, I think that when you mention abandonment issues and I mention attachment issues, we are probably talking about the same thing using different terms.

.

Going back to the book, Mayte tells a couple of stories about Prince's father. How many stories does Mayte have about Prince's mother? NONE. Prince's mom is mentioned a couple of times in the book, in passing. Her absence is very telling, in my opinion.

.

How much do Prince fans know about his mother? Very little. We some basic details about her life. But Prince NEVER (or almost never) talked about her...That was his MAMA...And he NEVER (or almost never) talked about her...Think about that.

.

Prince had abandonment/attachment issues due to experiences that occurred when he was a child. These experiences were outside of his control. He could not change the past. What he could change was how he dealt with what happenned to him in the past. When Prince became an adult, what was within his control was how he dealt with these experiences. This goes back to the whole issue of free will.

.

Prince certainly had the means to see a really good therapist to help him deal with these abandonment/attachment issues. Maybe he did see a therapist. Even so, he probably could have used more therapy. Prayer has a place in healing. Music has a place in healing. Professional help has a place in healing, whether that help be medical, psychological, physical therapy, or whatever.

.

As someone else wrote brilliantly, Prince had within him the seeds of his own destruction. I think that some of his self-destructive qualities were his avoidant/escapist tendences and his unwillingness to seek help.

Was Prince obligated to talk about his mother to the media and fans? People are in a rush to psycho analyze Prince like armchair quartebacks. Did it ever occur that some things Prince felt was nobody's damn business. Secondly, it's interesting to see how death really brings out the disturbing voyeurism in people who glee in people's tragedy.

No, he wasn't obligated to talk about her. But the lack of information about his mother, and the lack of pictures of her, is telling. The fact that Prince's first wife has no stories about her is telling. Prince had a picture of his father in his reflection room at Paisley Park, if I recall correctly. I don't recall hearing anything about him having a photo of his mother in the reflection room.

[Edited 4/10/17 21:35pm]

DD55 said:

206Michelle said:

kmama07, And after reading what you just wrote, I agree with what you said more than with the point that I made. I think that he strung her along and made her believe that they were going to start over in Spain. Now that still goes against the whole "Prince's woman stays in Minneapolis," principle, but she was there, and I wasn't, so I have to take her at her word. And then again, we're also talking about , the same man who ended one of his letters to Mayte by writing " will never leave u" 16 times. There's also that story in a magazine (Vogue, I think) about the 2 of them living in Spain, so wasn't just telling this nonsense about starting over in Spain to Mayte.

.

To your point about emotional immaturity, I think that the burning of all things related to Mayte and Amiir was another manifestation of emotional immaturity. I mean, how on God's green earth do you burn the ashes of your son? And then you don't even tell your wife. Like that is seriously f**ked up! (I wonder also why they never buried Amiir's ashes, to give him a final resting place.)

I agree with what Karma07 said... He moved her OUT of Minn taking her to Spain and convincing her that they would start over. Once she got to Spain she was no longer the girl in Minn.

It's funny cuz as she told about him suggesting they move to start over again I said out loud to my empty room, "Don't do it, girl, he just wants to get you out of Minnesota! Remember what he told you about never leaving you and that you would have to leave him? This is that, don't fall for it or he'll use that you left with him as a technicality against you later!'

My son was like, "Who are you talking to???"

[Edited 4/10/17 21:46pm]

206Michelle said:

bashraka said:

Was Prince obligated to talk about his mother to the media and fans? People are in a rush to psycho analyze Prince like armchair quartebacks. Did it ever occur that some things Prince felt was nobody's damn business. Secondly, it's interesting to see how death really brings out the disturbing voyeurism in people who glee in people's tragedy.

No, he wasn't obligated to talk about her. But the lack of information about his mother, and the lack of pictures of her, is telling. The fact that Prince's first wife has no stories about her is telling. Prince had a picture of his father in his reflection room at Paisley Park, if I recall correctly. I don't recall hearing anything about him having a photo of his mother in the reflection room.

[Edited 4/10/17 21:35pm]

I've seen his mom at a party at PP in a concert video and he seemed happy but that's one of just a few times I've even heard anything about her.

Then years later , after she was passed away I think, he sang Motherless Child at PP in a video I saw. The raw emotion is palpable and I don't think it was all from just the song being emotional. The video's floating around the Internet if you want to check it out.

LBrent said:

LOL!!!

LBrent said:

206Michelle said:

PennyPurple, I totally agree.

.

Like I said, while he probably had some serious attachment issues from childhood over which he had no control, once he became an adult, it was within his control to deal with these traumatic experiences. He prayed. He made music. He could have gotten therapy. Maybe he did go to therapy. In my opinion, if he did, it wasn't enough.

.

Therapy can be hard, very hard. But sometimes, life throws things at a person that overwhelms his or her coping skills. In these situations, often times the only thing that a person can do is to (a) admit that he or she can't handle the issues and (b) seek help/support for dealing with the issues.

.

This goes back to the whole issue of free will. Prince could have sought out professional help for his abandonment issues. He certainly had the means to receive top-notch professional help. He could have sought out professional help in order to deal with the loss of his son. Maybe he did, but I suspect that he did not receive professional help. Instead, he decided to believe the nonsense that his son's death was a punishment from God. He decided to have everything reminding him of Amiir and Mayte destroyed, including Amiir's ashes.

.

There's no denying it, he made bad choices. Me left Mayte and did her dirty. He married Manuela, and what happened...5 years later, they got a divorce. He never should have married Mani.

.

I love the man, I love his music, but he was a flawed genius. And when it came to his personal relationships, he was a mess, a boiling hot mess. I won't stop loving him because of his flaws and his bad choices. I acknowledge the bad things that he did, I don't like the bad things that he did, but I can't hate the man. His music means too much to me. Shoot, Mayte still loves him, and if SHE can love him in spite of everything that he did to her, then I can give him my fan love too.

I seem to remember him sarcasticly mentioned having seen a therapist many years ago but clearly that didn't continue.

I don't think he had the trust capacity to allow himself to be that vulnerable. He could barely manage limited vulnerability in a relationship with a person he loved.

He certainly had trust issues.

.

I don't think that abandonment/attachment issues doom a person to a life of having trust issues and failure in relationships. My own mother dealt with some pretty significant abandonment issues as a child. She and my father have been married for 35+ years, she and my dad raised 2 daughters, and she's done pretty well for herself with her nursing career. But she had to do a lot of therapy, a lot of prayer, and a lot of soul searching in order to deal with her childhood issues. I have an aunt who dealt with issues as a kid, including being the only daughter and having 5 brothers, 4 of them older than her. She has a master's degree in technical writing and worked for Microsoft. She also has some significant mental health issues, some of which she inherited. She's now in her mid-50s, but when she was a younger woman, she declined to take medication for depression and didn't receive therapy on a regular basis. Now, later in life, she can barely support herself and her mental health issues are more treatment resistant than they were 20-30 years ago.

.

A person has to be willing to change. The willingness to change is a matter of choice with most people, and Prince certainly was smart enough and functioned well enough that he could have changed if he wanted to do so. (I say most people because some people with significant disabilities might not be able to change so easily, or at all. Prince did not have a significant disability.) Prince had attachment/abandonment issues, and he didn't deal with those issues appropriately. One consequence of not dealing with his issues was that he left/pushed away the one woman who truly loved him.

LBrent said:

DD55 said:

I agree with what Karma07 said... He moved her OUT of Minn taking her to Spain and convincing her that they would start over. Once she got to Spain she was no longer the girl in Minn.

It's funny cuz as she told about him suggesting they move to start over again I said out loud to my empty room, "Don't do it, girl, he just wants to get you out of Minnesota! Remember what he told you about never leaving you and that you would have to leave him? This is that, don't fall for it or he'll use that you left with him as a technicality against you later!'

My son was like, "Who are you talking to???"

[Edited 4/10/17 21:46pm]

This goes back to the whole issue of free will. Prince could have sought out professional help for his abandonment issues. He certainly had the means to receive top-notch professional help. He could have sought out professional help in order to deal with the loss of his son. Maybe he did, but I suspect that he did not receive professional help. Instead, he decided to believe the nonsense that his son's death was a punishment from God. He decided to have everything reminding him of Amiir and Mayte destroyed, including Amiir's ashes.

How can Prince deal with abandonment issues when its all he knows. People weren't honest with the man so its hard to know one's self when that's the case. Fame makes it even more difficult to know what people's intentions. Prince once said that he liked people but found himself testing them...Of course, we don't know if Prince evolved in the last years of his life. Later on, HE was an isolated oddball, but even his proteges seemed more like collaborators and he seemed more respectful. His later relationships might have been brief but not too overly dramatic.

Often times what happens with artists is that they rely too much on their art for theraputic purposes. Medication, therapy etc can alter the 'genius', strip it of its edge. Maybe Prince worried that would happen and I think he distrusted the medical community so medical/psychological help might have been something he shied away from..

Not sure if he got any help for his issues, but I do recall him telling Sheila that he took up JW's partly because he wanted to relate to people more. Religion, even cults, offer a sense of community. HIs relationship with Mayte seemed to be just all about the two of them..all consuming, isolating for both of them. I wish he had found a different religious community. But it was a community--it may have ruined his marriages, stripped his edge, isolated him, and impacted his health, but it might have also humbled him and made him a bit more community minded.

The fact that he never married again after Manuela might just mean he accepted his limitations and didn't wish his baggage on others. Ultimately he spent the rest of his life being pretty much harmless.

Another interesting tidbit...In 2011, Brenda from Apollonia 6 made a good point about Prince. She wanted to see him again after many years..she and Susan Moonsie. When they were actually able to finally hook up with him back stage after a concert, They discovered that Prince was overjoyed to see them and spent an hour talking to Brenda's son. Hooking up with Prince was tough because the protocols and isolations around a celebrity as protected as Prince can be tough to break through or overwhelm. But, He didn't even know they were looking to talk to him and was pleasantly suprised once they did. Fame and the isolation it entails can mess with the healthiest of people and prince wasn't the healthiest of people.

Last point..someone said no one ever said no to him. I actually get the feeling that his childhood was full of people saying "no"--which I theorize is why he never accepted 'no' as an answer as an adult.. However, I must say fate dealt him plenty of "no"s..NO children (possible his genetics),, no height, no more high record sales, no sleep, no peace. I wouldn't want Prince's life.

206Michelle said:

PennyPurple said:

Well actually every single one of us has issues in our lives but we don't treat people that way. It was almost as if when he was done with somebody, he just threw them away. I know people used him too. I think people wanted their careers to take off and he was a stepping stone for them.

;

We can try to make excuses for him, but some of us has been thru a lot worse, then he went thru during our childhoods.

.

Again, I love Prince and his music, but I don't have to like what he did to people. Mayte seems to have a kind heart. She didn't want to make waves where he was concerned. Heck she could have wrote a book that would really slam him, and she didn't. I think that she still thinks that they will be together again either in Heaven or another life.

.

I think when he treated Mayte good it was really good, when he treated her bad, it was really, really bad.

PennyPurple, I totally agree.

.

Like I said, while he probably had some serious attachment issues from childhood over which he had no control, once he became an adult, it was within his control to deal with these traumatic experiences. He prayed. He made music. He could have gotten therapy. Maybe he did go to therapy. In my opinion, if he did, it wasn't enough.

.

Therapy can be hard, very hard. But sometimes, life throws things at a person that overwhelms his or her coping skills. In these situations, often times the only thing that a person can do is to (a) admit that he or she can't handle the issues and (b) seek help/support for dealing with the issues.

.

This goes back to the whole issue of free will. Prince could have sought out professional help for his abandonment issues. He certainly had the means to receive top-notch professional help. He could have sought out professional help in order to deal with the loss of his son. Maybe he did, but I suspect that he did not receive professional help. Instead, he decided to believe the nonsense that his son's death was a punishment from God. He decided to have everything reminding him of Amiir and Mayte destroyed, including Amiir's ashes.

.

There's no denying it, he made bad choices. Me left Mayte and did her dirty. He married Manuela, and what happened...5 years later, they got a divorce. He never should have married Mani.

.

I love the man, I love his music, but he was a flawed genius. And when it came to his personal relationships, he was a mess, a boiling hot mess. I won't stop loving him because of his flaws and his bad choices. I acknowledge the bad things that he did, I don't like the bad things that he did, but I can't hate the man. His music means too much to me. Shoot, Mayte still loves him, and if SHE can love him in spite of everything that he did to her, then I can give him my fan love too.

[Edited 4/10/17 22:37pm]

[Edited 4/10/17 22:43pm]

LBrent said:

PennyPurple said:

Well actually every single one of us has issues in our lives but we don't treat people that way. It was almost as if when he was done with somebody, he just threw them away. I know people used him too. I think people wanted their careers to take off and he was a stepping stone for them.

;

We can try to make excuses for him, but some of us has been thru a lot worse, then he went thru during our childhoods.

.

Again, I love Prince and his music, but I don't have to like what he did to people. Mayte seems to have a kind heart. She didn't want to make waves where he was concerned. Heck she could have wrote a book that would really slam him, and she didn't. I think that she still thinks that they will be together again either in Heaven or another life.

.

I think when he treated Mayte good it was really good, when he treated her bad, it was really, really bad.

Yes, and I think when some folks left his employ P felt that same sense of abandonment.

As I read the book, I could see paralleis in keeping folks "bookmarked"...like band members being told they were gonna be used then projects not materializing or being shelved.

Yes, he cared for them and enjoyed doing the projects, but I think sometimes he didn't want the project to end cuz then they might leave. Same with salary, if they needed him they had to stay.

I remember him saying something to Morris Day along the lines of if he would just trust P and follow what he was outlining he'd have a career or something like that, but MD had had enough and left.

I think every time someone left P whether romantic/business/friend/family, he felt the same betrayal triggers.

Something else I think about when he was asked why he needed to do everything on an album, play everything, sing everything...and P's answe broke my heart. He said he needed to do everything cuz "what if evrybody leaves me?"

I think his fear of abandonment had him leave folks he felt too close to so they wouldn't leave him first.

All very twisted and complicated feelings.

"Prince Talks" by Neal Karlen

October 18, 1990

And with the release of 'Graffiti Bridge,' the soundtrack to his forthcoming movie musical, the critics are listening. But don't even try to take notes.

.

From the article:

There is still some residue of emotional pain. "What if everybody around me split?" he asks. "Then I'd be left with only me, and I'd have to fend for me. That's why I have to protect me."

.

Source: http://www.rollingstone.c...s-19901018

This subject matter is very personal to me as I too was raised in a home with an emotionally absent mother, and no female siblings for support which I always felt would have made my situation more bearable. Sometimes my issues due to my childhood seem too much to overcome, and i had the added benefit of a father who was present and did his best to make up for my mother's shortcomings. In prince's case his father was also absent to some degree and there was a step-father dynamic to cope with as well. He had to have been near toxic to get involved with and I don't say that as a criticism about him at all. To me it's totally reasonable that his treatment of others throughout his life could be blamed on his upbringing free will be damned. The only problem with that is the simple fact that he was intelligent enough to know right from wrong. He also seemed to be very sure of the existence of God and what God expected of those who followed him/her. He was apparently riddled with guilt if he even suspected for a moment that his child's death was pay back for his lifestyle. Yet he still went on to play Mayte dirty. He allowed others outside of his marriage to influence him to the point he discarded sacred vows he made to another person. That to me was his greatest mistake and the main reason I could never take anything serious he says about God or religion. I didn't have to live with him or even trust him which is why I've been able to remain a fan, and nothing ive learned yet, or expect to learn, has changed my feelings towards him as a performer, musician, or philanthropist.

Along the same lines as abandonment and being left to fend for himself, plus the issues surrounding celebrity and isolation...

In an early PR era or just before that, when he had just gotten a bit of fame and money, Rolling Stone article, the one where he drives the interveiwer around his hometown and at one point whispers about having promised himself not to do this again (meaning subject himself to being interveiwed)...anyway, he tells the interveiwer that he misses his freinds and he wishes they'd stop by to visit but they very rarely do and he thinks it's because THEY think that they'd be bothering him, but that HE really missed them.

He was already feeling the isolation of celebrity and how folks were starting to pull away THINKING that HE wanted to be left alone. Add to that a feeling of distrust because of new folks in his life being dishonest/untrustworthy/predatory, there's a recipe for isolation simply out of self-preservation.

So now every time someone disappoints you, it just confirms feelings of worthlessness and being unlovable.

And every bad thing that happens after that reinforces those feelings.

206Michelle said:

A person has to be willing to change. The willingness to change is a matter of choice with most people, and Prince certainly was smart enough and functioned well enough that he could have changed if he wanted to do so. (I say most people because some people with significant disabilities might not be able to change so easily, or at all. Prince did not have a significant disability.) Prince had attachment/abandonment issues, and he didn't deal with those issues appropriately. One consequence of not dealing with his issues was that he left/pushed away the one woman who truly loved him.

I think this is really the key to it. He had defense mechanisms...immerse yourself in music, keep moving forward, repress/erase anything painful...and I also think he used seduction/romance as one of his main defenses...but that's not a full palette of coping strategies, and they all involve escapism/denial. I guess part of the problem is that they worked really really well for him mostly until he was in his mid-thirties. To be honest, I think maintaining any relationship over the long-term would have been hard for him...because, man, he was a master at romance, but romance isn't enough to sustain things in the day to day grind of things, or when the rubber hits the road...and it inclines you anyway to move on when the romance starts to fade - which it does, not matter how beautiful and captivating the story you have weaved - especially if you are a person who deals with everything by moving on. The way he treated Mayte was appaling, and that was the time when he really needed to confront himself honestly - and not in a 'God is punishing me for my sin' way, which I guess is a symptom (he'd always knew there was 'something wrong with the machinary'), but a twisted dishonest one - and do the work that was needed to deal with his past and how it had affected him. I guess however a tragedy like that is just so out of people's range of experience, people just fall back on their standard defense mechanisms. In his case, move one, weave a new romance, and in this case, add a whole new story about punishment and sin and redemption through Jehovah. That worked for him for a while as well, but again, it stopped him doing the honest work on himself he really needed to do...and he never ever learnt to do it...and it ended up where it ended up

LBrent said:

Hahahahshshahahahaha

206Michelle said:

amethyst68 said:

Typical PR move to release a statement like that. Keep in mind, this man locked his wife out of their home and discontinued her credit cards. He never should have married Manuela.

Good point about the PR move. I took the attorney's statement at face value and didn't even think about it being a PR move.

it would have been sort of mean if the attorney or Prince came right out and said "She's filing for divorce? well finally! what took her so long?" but i always thought well then why did he stop speaking to her, change the locks and keep his distance if he didn't want M2 out. not exactly the way we treat someone we love

LBrent said:

The Motherless Child performance is heartbreaking.

bsprout said:

LBrent said:

I've seen his mom at a party at PP in a concert video and he seemed happy but that's one of just a few times I've even heard anything about her.

Then years later , after she was passed away I think, he sang Motherless Child at PP in a video I saw. The raw emotion is palpable and I don't think it was all from just the song being emotional. The video's floating around the Internet if you want to check it out.

The Motherless Child performance is heartbreaking.

He Credits "My Patient Mother " in the Sleeve notes on Sign of the Times

That was lovely....

LBrent said:

206Michelle said:

No, he wasn't obligated to talk about her. But the lack of information about his mother, and the lack of pictures of her, is telling. The fact that Prince's first wife has no stories about her is telling. Prince had a picture of his father in his reflection room at Paisley Park, if I recall correctly. I don't recall hearing anything about him having a photo of his mother in the reflection room.

[Edited 4/10/17 21:35pm]

I've seen his mom at a party at PP in a concert video and he seemed happy but that's one of just a few times I've even heard anything about her.

Then years later , after she was passed away I think, he sang Motherless Child at PP in a video I saw. The raw emotion is palpable and I don't think it was all from just the song being emotional. The video's floating around the Internet if you want to check it out.

I saw that video. It was on YouTube shortly after he died. Maybe it's still there, I don't know. When I saw the video, my heart went out to him, because I could feel the hurt in his voice. He started the song off by saying "there's no need to argue and fight" - I was not sure if he was talking about his mother or a woman, but he at some point said that he was put on the street at 12 years old, so he was definitely talking about the time that he got put out of the house.

tmo1965 said:

LBrent said:

I've seen his mom at a party at PP in a concert video and he seemed happy but that's one of just a few times I've even heard anything about her.

Then years later , after she was passed away I think, he sang Motherless Child at PP in a video I saw. The raw emotion is palpable and I don't think it was all from just the song being emotional. The video's floating around the Internet if you want to check it out.

I saw that video. It was on YouTube shortly after he died. Maybe it's still there, I don't know. When I saw the video, my heart went out to him, because I could feel the hurt in his voice. He started the song off by saying "there's no need to argue and fight" - I was not sure if he was talking about his mother or a woman, but he at some point said that he was put on the street at 12 years old, so he was definitely talking about the time that he got put out of the house.

I believe that video was from 1998 or 99 before his mum passed .It is from Spain and if you watch the full version Mayte comes on the stage

bashraka said:

Was Prince obligated to talk about his mother to the media and fans? People are in a rush to psycho analyze Prince like armchair quartebacks. Did it ever occur that some things Prince felt was nobody's damn business. Secondly, it's interesting to see how death really brings out the disturbing voyeurism in people who glee in people's tragedy.

Have you read the book Bashraka? We are here on this thread discussing the book. This thread isn't for insults. Thank you for your cooperation.

206Michelle said:

kmama07 said:

kmama07, And after reading what you just wrote, I agree with what you said more than with the point that I made. I think that he strung her along and made her believe that they were going to start over in Spain. Now that still goes against the whole "Prince's woman stays in Minneapolis," principle, but she was there, and I wasn't, so I have to take her at her word. And then again, we're also talking about , the same man who ended one of his letters to Mayte by writing " will never leave u" 16 times. There's also that story in a magazine (Vogue, I think) about the 2 of them living in Spain, so wasn't just telling this nonsense about starting over in Spain to Mayte.

.

To your point about emotional immaturity, I think that the burning of all things related to Mayte and Amiir was another manifestation of emotional immaturity. I mean, how on God's green earth do you burn the ashes of your son? And then you don't even tell your wife. Like that is seriously f**ked up! (I wonder also why they never buried Amiir's ashes, to give him a final resting place.)

The hardest thing for me to understand is the the burning of the the things that remind him of his son. Mayte, I can get it. Burn her stuff (doesn't mean I agree with his actions). But his son? I understand he has his memorries of his son, but that is a level I cannot understand nor agree with.

nelcp777 said:

The hardest thing for me to understand is the the burning of the the things that remind him of his son. Mayte, I can get it. Burn her stuff (doesn't mean I agree with his actions). But his son? I understand he has his memorries of his son, but that is a level I cannot understand nor agree with.

I agree, and I have heartburn with the fact that he didn't even consider the mother of his child's feelings and what the babies things meant to her.

206Michelle said:

kmama07 said:

206Michelle said: I was wondering as well. But not everyone buries ashes. Some keep the urns, some scatter after a certain amount of time. I've even seen people with jewelry that holds ashes of loved ones as well as (not even kidding) people having paintings made with their loved ones ashes...pets specifically. Maybe they just weren't ready for the "finality" of burying his ashes. That question will probably never be answered. I think it all was too much and by then, Mayte symbolized loss and pain. Rather than facing it with her, he shut down. Perfect opportunity for Larry, Manuela and the JW era to swoop on in. Just my opinion. And I'm certainly not putting all blame on Manuela...granted, she knew he was married and should have kept to herself...definitely broke serious woman code...but HE was the married one who should have had the nads to break it off with his wife before things got heated with M2.

kmama07, I agree with you about him shutting down. I wonder if and Mayte ever tried to receive professional help, e.g. therapy. Or maybe Mayte tried and refused.

Didn't Prince mention therapy in the Oprah interview?

jayseajay said:

206Michelle said:

A person has to be willing to change. The willingness to change is a matter of choice with most people, and Prince certainly was smart enough and functioned well enough that he could have changed if he wanted to do so. (I say most people because some people with significant disabilities might not be able to change so easily, or at all. Prince did not have a significant disability.) Prince had attachment/abandonment issues, and he didn't deal with those issues appropriately. One consequence of not dealing with his issues was that he left/pushed away the one woman who truly loved him.

I think this is really the key to it. He had defense mechanisms...immerse yourself in music, keep moving forward, repress/erase anything painful...and I also think he used seduction/romance as one of his main defenses...but that's not a full palette of coping strategies, and they all involve escapism/denial. I guess part of the problem is that they worked really really well for him mostly until he was in his mid-thirties. To be honest, I think maintaining any relationship over the long-term would have been hard for him...because, man, he was a master at romance, but romance isn't enough to sustain things in the day to day grind of things, or when the rubber hits the road...and it inclines you anyway to move on when the romance starts to fade - which it does, not matter how beautiful and captivating the story you have weaved - especially if you are a person who deals with everything by moving on. The way he treated Mayte was appaling, and that was the time when he really needed to confront himself honestly - and not in a 'God is punishing me for my sin' way, which I guess is a symptom (he'd always knew there was 'something wrong with the machinary'), but a twisted dishonest one - and do the work that was needed to deal with his past and how it had affected him. I guess however a tragedy like that is just so out of people's range of experience, people just fall back on their standard defense mechanisms. In his case, move one, weave a new romance, and in this case, add a whole new story about punishment and sin and redemption through Jehovah. That worked for him for a while as well, but again, it stopped him doing the honest work on himself he really needed to do...and he never ever learnt to do it...and it ended up where it ended up

I just realized when you said that...For nealy a decade, P & Mayte's relationship entirely revolved around his imagination/captivation with/creating the story of/performing the shows & album & movie of/mythology of..."Princess Mayte".

All his energies over that block of time went into crafting their lives around that fantasy/mythology...until baby Amiir's passing (RIP).

That started a chain of events that sent the fantasy askew, but I think P was still trying to hold it together mostly...until the miscarraige.

See, the mythology could still hold with the "tragic loss of the firstborn" spun ito "but with the birth of their second child...the couple memorialized/remembered their firstborn" and he could still salvage the fantasy "happily ever after". With the miscarraige, and all the the temptation (Mani) and blowback (Mayte) and conflict (his new JW beleifs), there was the perfect storm to completely destroy the "Prince & his Princess Mayte" fantasy/mythology in his mind.

Even going to Cairo was a desperate attempt for him to keep the fantasy...but I hate to be so cynical, Mani really is part Egyptian. Maybe that was a big part of her appeal in the moments leading up to his betrayal of his marraige vows to and his love for Mayte.

I'll bet we never find out from M2, but I wonder if he fixated on her Egyptian heritage in the same way as he did Mayte's perception as "Princess Mayte". A bit twisted to think about, but surely not outside the realm of possibility. Even the subsequent Rainbow Children with it's biblical focus has an unmistakable Middle Eastern vibe in it's narrative. But I don't think Mani went for any of that to allow him to create a sequel to "Princess Mayte" with a "Princess Manuela" scenario. While he might have tried in the beginning and she might've found the attention flattering, I don't see her sticking with enabling that fantasy for nearly a decade like Mayte did. In fact, I think she might've found it insulting.

Thoughts? We don't know much about life with P & M2 after Mayte, anybody consider this angle?

PennyPurple said:

nelcp777 said:

The hardest thing for me to understand is the the burning of the the things that remind him of his son. Mayte, I can get it. Burn her stuff (doesn't mean I agree with his actions). But his son? I understand he has his memorries of his son, but that is a level I cannot understand nor agree with.

I agree, and I have heartburn with the fact that he didn't even consider the mother of his child's feelings and what the babies things meant to her.

It was a hard thing to listen to in the book.

But think about this...P was all about grand gestures. He was also a "runner" and destroyed entire houses to chase away bad memories. It saddened me to hear about the destruction of those things, but after thinking about it, I could see the grand gesture of it. In a mythological world where kingdoms and princesses and one heartbroken prince lives, destroying all evidence of tragedy in a thing. Can't you see that played out in your mind's eye in the Bible?

Add to the threads of fantasy/mythology I write about in my last post and then mix in the Bible as a book filled with kings making grand gestures to commence wars and invade countries, etc. The very theatre of it all.

But I don't think it came lightly to P. I think there's more to this story.

That urn exists. Just gotta find it.

LBrent said:

PennyPurple said:

I agree, and I have heartburn with the fact that he didn't even consider the mother of his child's feelings and what the babies things meant to her.

It was a hard thing to listen to in the book.

But think about this...P was all about grand gestures. He was also a "runner" and destroyed entire houses to chase away bad memories. It saddened me to hear about the destruction of those things, but after thinking about it, I could see the grand gesture of it. In a mythological world where kingdoms and princesses and one heartbroken prince lives, destroying all evidence of tragedy in a thing. Can't you see that played out in your mind's eye in the Bible?

Add to the threads of fantasy/mythology I write about in my last post and then mix in the Bible as a book filled with kings making grand gestures to commence wars and invade countries, etc. The very theatre of it all.

But I don't think it came lightly to P. I think there's more to this story.

That urn exists. Just gotta find it.

Grand gestures, abondonement issue, brand control it doesn't matter (for me). I love my wife to death and I am thankful for her. But if we were to divorce (and I pray that never comes), no matter how much she hurts me or pisses me off, to remove the memories of our children, nope. Nothing can do that. I can be on my knees with a gun to my head, it ain't happening. Can't sell it, I ain't buying it, nor can I understand it. That is me. Sorry, do not mean to offend or argue.

It is sad, Prince was worried about being alone, loosing control. Was outspoken about bootlegs, worried about his apearance. And all those things were the opposite when he passed. I am not judging him by any means. We all have our faults, issues, demons. I know I do. It does tear at your heart though.

jayseajay said:

206Michelle said:

A person has to be willing to change. The willingness to change is a matter of choice with most people, and Prince certainly was smart enough and functioned well enough that he could have changed if he wanted to do so. (I say most people because some people with significant disabilities might not be able to change so easily, or at all. Prince did not have a significant disability.) Prince had attachment/abandonment issues, and he didn't deal with those issues appropriately. One consequence of not dealing with his issues was that he left/pushed away the one woman who truly loved him.

I think this is really the key to it. He had defense mechanisms...immerse yourself in music, keep moving forward, repress/erase anything painful...and I also think he used seduction/romance as one of his main defenses...but that's not a full palette of coping strategies, and they all involve escapism/denial. I guess part of the problem is that they worked really really well for him mostly until he was in his mid-thirties. To be honest, I think maintaining any relationship over the long-term would have been hard for him...because, man, he was a master at romance, but romance isn't enough to sustain things in the day to day grind of things, or when the rubber hits the road...and it inclines you anyway to move on when the romance starts to fade - which it does, not matter how beautiful and captivating the story you have weaved - especially if you are a person who deals with everything by moving on. The way he treated Mayte was appaling, and that was the time when he really needed to confront himself honestly - and not in a 'God is punishing me for my sin' way, which I guess is a symptom (he'd always knew there was 'something wrong with the machinary'), but a twisted dishonest one - and do the work that was needed to deal with his past and how it had affected him. I guess however a tragedy like that is just so out of people's range of experience, people just fall back on their standard defense mechanisms. In his case, move one, weave a new romance, and in this case, add a whole new story about punishment and sin and redemption through Jehovah. That worked for him for a while as well, but again, it stopped him doing the honest work on himself he really needed to do...and he never ever learnt to do it...and it ended up where it ended up

My copy of the book arrived yesterday. I read the prologue, some of the 1st chapter, and I've skimmed through other parts of the book. The parts that I skimmed through are heart breaking. Between reading these threads and those parts of the book, I'm on the verge of tears. This story is so sad. I always wondered wheather LG and the JW religion had anything to do with the marriage breakup of Prince and M1. Now I have my answer.

LG was sticking to Prince like glue during the late '90s and early 2000's. I'm sure that he was whispering in Prince's ear against Mayte. Between LG and M2's opportunistic azz and Prince being at his most vunerable state, his marriage to Mayte did not have a chance. I think that when Mayte stopped going everywhere with him, like on that tour when she found out about M2, Prince felt abandoned. That's why he told her F you, when she refused to go to a basketball game. (Tears are rolling down my eyes right now thinking about this). It seems that Mayte was going through a depression, which makes you not want to do the things that you liked to do (I know because I've gone through it). This is where professional counselling would have helped them.

I'm not passing judgement on any party involved - well maybe a bit on LG and M2. Mayte was depressed and grieving. Prince had a hard time dealing with his grief and he felt that Mayte was abandoning him, so he abandoned her 1st. LG thought that he was doing God's work by bring Prince into the JW org. Prince was most probably telling M2 that Mayte did not want to become a JW and that Mayte left him, or who knows what he said that caused M2 feel that she was justified in running around with a married man.