DD55 said:

Am I the only one who sees a huge contradiction here? P doesn’t want her to get medical help because things should be left 'in God’s hands' but he is ok with his son getting multiple surgeries? IDK. Maybe because it’s so upsetting that I’m not understanding the situation.

I think both decisions were made with the intention of saving the life of his child. I think he's pretty consistent.

[Edited 4/13/17 16:31pm]

[Edited 4/13/17 16:32pm]

amethyst68 said:

DD55 said:

Am I the only one who sees a huge contradiction here? P doesn’t want her to get medical help because things should be left 'in God’s hands' but he is ok with his son getting multiple surgeries? IDK. Maybe because it’s so upsetting that I’m not understanding the situation.

I think both decisions were made with the intention of saving the life of his child. I think he's pretty consistent.

[Edited 4/13/17 16:31pm]

[Edited 4/13/17 16:32pm]

yes and no. She was bleeding and the doctor wanted to admit her and he said no. She left the doctors with him because he did not want her to stay. Her life could have been at stake. She ended up convincing him to take her to an ER, where they told her the same thing and ended up admitting her. Did I read that wrong?

[Edited 4/13/17 16:36pm]

DD55 said:

Am I the only one who sees a huge contradiction here? P doesn’t want her to get medical help because things should be left 'in God’s hands' but he is ok with his son getting multiple surgeries? IDK. Maybe because it’s so upsetting that I’m not understanding the situation.

I touched on this in another post/thread. I think men in general get freaked out about "female troubles" with our bodies. Add to that lotsa medical mumbo jumbo that's scary and confusing, and your wife's upset, the doctor's yammering at you, too. And everyone's looking to you to know what to decide...so you decide No. And no one's happy, not even you, but at least you have a moment to breathe and get your thoughts together.

I don't think the baby's situation was veiwed the same by him. In Mayte's situation, P wasn't stupid, he knew that ultimately if Mayte wanted to override his decision she could...and did eventually. But Amiir couldn't. Amiir needed P to advocate and decide for him, and Mayte describes him doing that.

She was asked to do a screen test for Selena.

.

They missed the Alanis Morisette concert because she was tired and Prince took her home and they watched TV, which was sweet of him to do.

.

They were so happy when they found out she was pregnant. He rushed her to Urgent Care.

He even called her mom at 4 in the morning.

.

At least she broke the ice between his father and him.

.

Something I noticed when he took the aspirin and drank the wine, she said that when he saw her he jumped off the gurney and sprang up full of life, which leads me to believe he didn't want anyone thinking that there was anything wrong with him. Which he was trying to make everyone think he was fine after that episode on the plane. He wasn't fine. He just didn't want people to see him sick.

.

He had his wardrobe crew cover the pram in with a black tarp, to protect the babies privacy.

.

I wonder why he suddenly left NY when they had planned to have her family get together for her mom's birthday and for Mother's Day?.

.

Also disturbing is when he wouldn't let her stay in the hospital when the Dr kept telling him there was something wrong, and Mayte didn't want to upset her husband so she went along with him. And yet left that hospital and took her to another. While she was on bedrest he came to see her everyday.

.

The next part of the book, I don't like very well. Prince did everything he could to save that baby and was with the baby all the time. I wish he would've let her be there when the took the baby off the machine, but he was just trying to protect her.

.

As a mother I know how painful it was to dry up your breasts too. They're heavy, the ache and a fever in them.

.

When they told Prince that she had an infection and needed to go back to the hospital he said no. They told him if she didn't get treatment it could make her sterile, and she decided to go and asked him to go with her, he told her no and stayed there.

.

And then...sigh...the Oprah interview.

206Michelle said:

For the record, just for informational purposes, I've done some research about Pfeiffer Syndrome type 2 and I am also a special education teacher. If had Amiir lived, I think that it is reasonable to say that he would have had a very severe disability. He probably would have required round-the-clock care. He probably would have had to be in a self-contained class for children who have multiple disabilities or attended a special school that specializes in educating children with significant disabilities.

I wouldn't think that he would be able to go to school with that severe of disability.

PennyPurple said:

206Michelle said:

For the record, just for informational purposes, I've done some research about Pfeiffer Syndrome type 2 and I am also a special education teacher. If had Amiir lived, I think that it is reasonable to say that he would have had a very severe disability. He probably would have required round-the-clock care. He probably would have had to be in a self-contained class for children who have multiple disabilities or attended a special school that specializes in educating children with significant disabilities.

I wouldn't think that he would be able to go to school with that severe of disability.

They can and do, but Amiir probably would've had an entire portion of PP redesigned to meet his every last therapy/medical/schooling needs.

You know how P rolled.

The danged egg shaped building would've been "Amiir Central Headquarters" or something.

[Edited 4/13/17 17:01pm]

206Michelle said:

For the record, just for informational purposes, I've done some research about Pfeiffer Syndrome type 2 and I am also a special education teacher. If had Amiir lived, I think that it is reasonable to say that he would have had a very severe disability. He probably would have required round-the-clock care. He probably would have had to be in a self-contained class for children who have multiple disabilities or attended a special school that specializes in educating children with significant disabilities.

I wouldn't think that he would be able to go to school with that severe of disability. ?

DD55 said:

Am I the only one who sees a huge contradiction here? P doesn’t want her to get medical help because things should be left 'in God’s hands' but he is ok with his son getting multiple surgeries? IDK. Maybe because it’s so upsetting that I’m not understanding the situation.

I think because he wanted to do every thing possible to save the baby, no matter what. They just wanted their baby.

This was a hard chapter to get through. Prince loved his son and I truly believe he never got over this. I know how I feel. I can only imagine how he felt. How Mayte felt. I get why he made the decision to remove life support and not tell Mayte until after, but at the same time, I feel he should have let her decide if she wanted to be there or not. As I read this part I kept thinking Amiir died alone. Yes I know doctors and nurses were there but his parents, that loved him with every fiber of their being, were not. That made me sad and I cried. Its heartbreaking

CMSantos71 said:

+1

+1

CMSantos71 said:

A point of clarification...they made the decision to remove life support together. Unfortunately, Prince made the decision for them not to be there when life support was removed. I feel like his efforts to be protective of his son or Mayte or both are sometimes skewed to appear that he's being controlling. In light of how people react now just learning about the events surrounding the pregnancy and birth and death of their son, you can sort of understand why he didn't want to talk about it publicly at the time. I view nothing he did as out of the ordinary for a famous man looking out for his family.
[Edited 4/13/17 18:24pm]

amethyst68 said:

NickiStarr said:

This chapter is beautiful but frustrating for me. Once again, Mayte made sacrifices for Prince. She wanted to know more but he refused amnio. There were warning signs that something was wrong and they did not act. No one else is saying what I am thinking: this tragedy may have been preventable. In the end, Mayte is the only person who can say she had a baby with Prince, and that makes her special, but it hurts my heart that they were ignoring warning signs and medical advice from the very beginning.

Amnio would not have given then a definitive answer about any genetic disorder, especially not Pfeiffer Syndrome. There was nothing they could have done at that point but to carry the pregnancy out.

Many women do not accept the offer from medical providers to do more definitive testing for birth defects. Because they do not want to make the difficult decision to end the pregnancy. Doctors understand that but still encourgage the tests as it gives the parents time to prepare for the child's disability. Which is a good point. Still many expectant mothers choose to leave it in God's hands, or let nature takes its course, etc.

"Comeback" (from The Truth, 1998)
.

LBrent said:

206Michelle said:

For the record, just for informational purposes, I've done some research about Pfeiffer Syndrome type 2 and I am also a special education teacher. If had Amiir lived, I think that it is reasonable to say that he would have had a very severe disability. He probably would have required round-the-clock care. He probably would have had to be in a self-contained class for children who have multiple disabilities or attended a special school that specializes in educating children with significant disabilities.

Yup. We call these types of disabilities "catastrophic". But Amiir would've had two devoted parents and likely an entire wing of PP dedicated to his care as well.

Interestingly enough, in those days the prognosis was "incompatible with life" but now there are children who are born with the same and sometimes worse cases of PS2 who survive and thrive. You can see some families documenting these children playing and growing and riding bikes on YouTube.

Unfortunately, these chidren have had upwards of 20-30 surgical procedures to get them there. Mayte didn't seem able to mitigate whatever short term suffering might get her Amiir to anywhere near that point. I'm not blaming or judging her, far from it.

Parenting special needs children isn't for the faint of heart. But she does make clear that P was totally on board with moving forward with heroic measures and that she was the one who could'nt bear what she felt was "torturing Amiir". I wonder if the doctors had shown her babies who had sucessfully been assisted with surgery to correct even those most complicated of the baby's issues and they had better support with family she might've felt more able to consider continuing.

Without the procedures he would'nt live, but with MANY PAINFUL procedures he could've not only survived, but thrived.

It's a difficult Catch-22 for any parent.

But she makes it clear that she convinced P to let him go.

[Edited 4/13/17 16:19pm]

With all due respect, this is not necessarily true. Not all of these babies can be saved despite all the heroic measures in the world.

That's all for me tonight. I feel like I've been through the wringer. Very emotionally draining part of the book. Ouch.

[Edited 4/13/17 18:29pm]

Neither Prince nor Mayte have ever confirmed that this song is about the death of their son, but I think it's painfully obvious that it is. If you listen to it, you can hear crying/breaking down while he sings. (By the way, the song is on YouTube. I won't put up the link, but it's there.)

.

Until U're in My Arms Again (from Newpower Soul, 1998)

.

All of my life I've never wanted anyone like I wanted you
Every night I said a prayer to God and his angels
I'm sure they knew
The many tears that I'd have to cry
If I ever had to leave your side

.

CHORUS:
Until you're in my arms again
I know this pain will never end
This broken heart will never mend
Until you're in my arms again

Every mornin' when I awaken, I imagine you sleepin' in your bed
Wrong or right the reason you're taken from my embrace
Well, it's never said
'Cause every day that you don't return
Is another day that my heart just yearns and yearns
That's why

.

CHORUS

.

If life remains a mystery
Then there's no reason to the rhyme
And you, you'll never know what you mean to me till you're mine, all mine

Until you're in my arms again
Until you're in my arms again
Until you're in my arms again

.

CHORUS

.
Until you're, until you're, until you're in my arms again!
No, ain't never gonna end
Never gonna mend
Until you're back, right back in my arms again

.

I'll never see like others see
(I know that you'll come back to me)
I know you're gonna come right back to me (Come on back to me)
And this time you will never leave my arms again
(Never leave my arms again)

.

Until you're in my arms again
Until you're in my arms again
Until you're in my arms again
Come on back, baby
Come on back
Come on back

Until you're in my arms again
Until you're in my arms again

206Michelle said:

I've always thought this was a song for his son
[Edited 4/13/17 18:37pm]

sonshine said:

LBrent said:

Yup. We call these types of disabilities "catastrophic". But Amiir would've had two devoted parents and likely an entire wing of PP dedicated to his care as well.

Interestingly enough, in those days the prognosis was "incompatible with life" but now there are children who are born with the same and sometimes worse cases of PS2 who survive and thrive. You can see some families documenting these children playing and growing and riding bikes on YouTube.

Unfortunately, these chidren have had upwards of 20-30 surgical procedures to get them there. Mayte didn't seem able to mitigate whatever short term suffering might get her Amiir to anywhere near that point. I'm not blaming or judging her, far from it.

Parenting special needs children isn't for the faint of heart. But she does make clear that P was totally on board with moving forward with heroic measures and that she was the one who could'nt bear what she felt was "torturing Amiir". I wonder if the doctors had shown her babies who had sucessfully been assisted with surgery to correct even those most complicated of the baby's issues and they had better support with family she might've felt more able to consider continuing.

Without the procedures he would'nt live, but with MANY PAINFUL procedures he could've not only survived, but thrived.

It's a difficult Catch-22 for any parent.

But she makes it clear that she convinced P to let him go.

[Edited 4/13/17 16:19pm]

With all due respect, this is not necessarily true. Not all of these babies can be saved despite all the heroic measures in the world.

That's all for me tonight. I feel like I've been through the wringer. Very emotionally draining part of the book. Ouch.

[Edited 4/13/17 18:29pm]

Oh, you're absolutely correct!

Please don't think I meant that ALL of these children survive and thrive, especially to be high functioning. Especially 20+ years ago...but if they had had more information, they might've felt comfortable moving forward with what are many many painful procedures but might've given Amiir a decent future.

PennyPurple said:

Mayte says in the book that a "compassionate friend" told her that she had heard (don't think this was Manuela) that P's assistant was upset that HE had been asked to burn Mayte and Amir's belongings, including the crib. It was a MALE assistant! Anyone know of a male assistant other than Kirk?

PennyPurple said:

206Michelle said:

For the record, just for informational purposes, I've done some research about Pfeiffer Syndrome type 2 and I am also a special education teacher. If had Amiir lived, I think that it is reasonable to say that he would have had a very severe disability. He probably would have required round-the-clock care. He probably would have had to be in a self-contained class for children who have multiple disabilities or attended a special school that specializes in educating children with significant disabilities.

I wouldn't think that he would be able to go to school with that severe of disability.

Not to get off topic, but every child who meets the criteria for a disability under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Improvement Act (IDEIA) has the right to receive an education in this country. In the IDEIA, there is a principle called "zero reject," meaning that a Local Education Agency (LEA, e.g. a school district) is obligated to provide every child who has a disability with a Free Appropriate Public Education (FAPE). For example, if a child's disability is so severe that he/she requires a nurse in order to attend school, the LEA must provide nursing services. The Supreme Court has ruled that under IDEIA (or a previous version of the law), the LEA must provide related services that are necessary in order for the child to attend school. For some children, the disability may be so severe that he/she needs homebound instruction or instruction at a hospital. And the LEA is obligated to find a way to provide that instruction.

.

Not every kid is going to be learning 2 + 2 or about the 50 states. I teach kids who have autism in grades K and 1. Most of what I do is functional - matching letters, matching shapes, making simple requests (I want ___), teaching them to walk in line, teaching them more appropriate ways to get attention than hitting and kicking. I have 3 students who still wear diapers, although we are trying to do toilet train (which is easier said then done sometimes because the parents have to cooperate and send a lot of extra clothes).

.

If Amiir had lived, it's possible that and Mayte could have had him homeschooled or have him attend a private school at their expense because they had that kind of money. Otherwise, the school district in Chanhassen would have had to provide him with a FAPE at one of their schools or pay for him to attend school elsewhere.

amethyst68 said:

CMSantos71 said:

This was a hard chapter to get through. Prince loved his son and I truly believe he never got over this. I know how I feel. I can only imagine how he felt. How Mayte felt. I get why he made the decision to remove life support and not tell Mayte until after, but at the same time, I feel he should have let her decide if she wanted to be there or not. As I read this part I kept thinking Amiir died alone. Yes I know doctors and nurses were there but his parents, that loved him with every fiber of their being, were not. That made me sad and I cried. Its heartbreaking

A point of clarification...they made the decision to remove life support together. Unfortunately, Prince made the decision for them not to be there when life support was removed. I feel like his efforts to be protective of his son or Mayte or both are sometimes skewed to appear that he's being controlling. In light of how people react now just learning about the events surrounding the pregnancy and birth and death of their son, you can sort of understand why he didn't want to talk about it publicly at the time. I view nothing he did as out of the ordinary for a famous man looking out for his family. [Edited 4/13/17 18:24pm]

Yes I know they made the decision together. Yes he made the decision to have it removed while they were at home. But I feel, and this is the point I was trying to make, that she should've had a choice to be there or not. Yet, at the same time I can see why he made that decision. He was in protection mode and there is nothing wrong with that.

amethyst68 said:

206Michelle said:

Neither Prince nor Mayte have ever confirmed that this song is about the death of their son, but I think it's painfully obvious that it is. If you listen to it, you can hear crying/breaking down while he sings. (By the way, the song is on YouTube. I won't put up the link, but it's there.)

.

Until U're in My Arms Again (from Newpower Soul, 1998)

.

All of my life I've never wanted anyone like I wanted you
Every night I said a prayer to God and his angels
I'm sure they knew
The many tears that I'd have to cry
If I ever had to leave your side

.

CHORUS:
Until you're in my arms again
I know this pain will never end
This broken heart will never mend
Until you're in my arms again

Every mornin' when I awaken, I imagine you sleepin' in your bed
Wrong or right the reason you're taken from my embrace
Well, it's never said
'Cause every day that you don't return
Is another day that my heart just yearns and yearns
That's why

.

CHORUS

.

If life remains a mystery
Then there's no reason to the rhyme
And you, you'll never know what you mean to me till you're mine, all mine

Until you're in my arms again
Until you're in my arms again
Until you're in my arms again

.

CHORUS

.
Until you're, until you're, until you're in my arms again!
No, ain't never gonna end
Never gonna mend
Until you're back, right back in my arms again

.

I'll never see like others see
(I know that you'll come back to me)
I know you're gonna come right back to me (Come on back to me)
And this time you will never leave my arms again
(Never leave my arms again)

.

Until you're in my arms again
Until you're in my arms again
Until you're in my arms again
Come on back, baby
Come on back
Come on back

Until you're in my arms again
Until you're in my arms again

I've always thought this was a song for his son [Edited 4/13/17 18:37pm]

Just saw something on the news tonight re the parents of the children killed at Newtown and one Mom said the worst thing you can ever do to a parent who has lost a child is to never mention that child. It's like killing the child all over, ever time. She said when someone mentions her dead son, even if she's crying and they say, 'I'm so sorry I made you cry.'...she says, 'No, it's all right; you made him alive again in that instant.'

Imagine, if you will, the Amiir Garcia Nelson Pediatric Hospital and Genetic Research Institute reaching to the sky across the road from Paisley Park. Tears go here...

DD55 said:

+1

Penny, can we move to chapter 10? I know we didn’t take a lot of time to discuss Chapter 9, but I think that whether you read it once or a dozen times your heart just goest out to this couple who seemingly had everything until this loss. I know I can’t really discuss it any more. I think we’ve all cried, I know i have. This chapter this has stopped us in our tracks.

.

We can still discuss it but at the same time move on. Is that ok?

.

Does everyone else feel the same?

I know it's sad, but I would like to give Chapter 9 some time to discuss.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

I think Mayte said just that about hearing Michael Strahan say "Amiir" in her first interview. I do think he talked about Amiir among close friends even up until his Prince's death.
[Edited 4/13/17 19:04pm]

206Michelle said:

PennyPurple said:

I wouldn't think that he would be able to go to school with that severe of disability.

Not to get off topic, but every child who meets the criteria for a disability under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Improvement Act (IDEIA) has the right to receive an education in this country. In the IDEIA, there is a principle called "zero reject," meaning that a Local Education Agency (LEA, e.g. a school district) is obligated to provide every child who has a disability with a Free Appropriate Public Education (FAPE). For example, if a child's disability is so severe that he/she requires a nurse in order to attend school, the LEA must provide nursing services. The Supreme Court has ruled that under IDEIA (or a previous version of the law), the LEA must provide related services that are necessary in order for the child to attend school. For some children, the disability may be so severe that he/she needs homebound instruction or instruction at a hospital. And the LEA is obligated to find a way to provide that instruction.

.

Not every kid is going to be learning 2 + 2 or about the 50 states. I teach kids who have autism in grades K and 1. Most of what I do is functional - matching letters, matching shapes, making simple requests (I want ___), teaching them to walk in line, teaching them more appropriate ways to get attention than hitting and kicking. I have 3 students who still wear diapers, although we are trying to do toilet train (which is easier said then done sometimes because the parents have to cooperate and send a lot of extra clothes).

.

If Amiir had lived, it's possible that and Mayte could have had him homeschooled or have him attend a private school at their expense because they had that kind of money. Otherwise, the school district in Chanhassen would have had to provide him with a FAPE at one of their schools or pay for him to attend school elsewhere.

Exactly!

Bodhitheblackdog said:

amethyst68 said:

206Michelle said: I've always thought this was a song for his son [Edited 4/13/17 18:37pm]

Just saw something on the news tonight re the parents of the children killed at Newtown and one Mom said the worst thing you can ever do to a parent who has lost a child is to never mention that child. It's like killing the child all over, ever time. She said when someone mentions her dead son, even if she's crying and they say, 'I'm so sorry I made you cry.'...she says, 'No, it's all right; you made him alive again in that instant.'

Imagine, if you will, the Amiir Garcia Nelson Pediatric Hospital and Genetic Research Institute reaching to the sky across the road from Paisley Park. Tears go here...

OMG YES!!!!!!!

PennyPurple said:

DD55 said:

+1

Penny, can we move to chapter 10? I know we didn’t take a lot of time to discuss Chapter 9, but I think that whether you read it once or a dozen times your heart just goest out to this couple who seemingly had everything until this loss. I know I can’t really discuss it any more. I think we’ve all cried, I know i have. This chapter this has stopped us in our tracks.

.

We can still discuss it but at the same time move on. Is that ok?

.

Does everyone else feel the same?

I know it's sad, but I would like to give Chapter 9 some time to discuss.

Penny, No worries, I see now that the club does need more time. I let my sadness rule me.

LBrent said:

206Michelle said:

Just saw something on the news tonight re the parents of the children killed at Newtown and one Mom said the worst thing you can ever do to a parent who has lost a child is to never mention that child. It's like killing the child all over, ever time. She said when someone mentions her dead son, even if she's crying and they say, 'I'm so sorry I made you cry.'...she says, 'No, it's all right; you made him alive again in that instant.'

Imagine, if you will, the Amiir Garcia Nelson Pediatric Hospital and Genetic Research Institute reaching to the sky across the road from Paisley Park. Tears go here...

OMG YES!!!!!!!

Unfortunately No, I can’t imagine the AGNPH&GRI across from Paisley Park.

Wouldn’t have happened. P would never have allowed something like that. Remember his comment about the human genome and ‘God’ talk.

Prince didn’t get it, God and Science can live together.

The sad part is he and Matye could have used IVF for the second baby insuring it was a healthy embryo and successful fully monitered pregnancy most likely brought to term.

Remember this is Prince we're talking about. I wouldn't mind being wrong.

DD55 said:

LBrent said:

OMG YES!!!!!!!

Unfortunately No, I can’t imagine the AGNPH&GRI across from Paisley Park.

Wouldn’t have happened. P would never have allowed something like that. Remember his comment about the human genome and ‘God’ talk.

Prince didn’t get it, God and Science can live together.

The sad part is he and Matye could have used IVF for the second baby insuring it was a healthy embryo and successful fully monitered pregnancy most likely brought to term.

Remember this is Prince we're talking about. I wouldn't mind being wrong.

DD55: with great sadness, I think you're right. I was just besotted with the thoughth/vision that this was a man, one in a zillion, who had the resources, rumored love of people and grandness of vision to have been able to pull this off and bring (medical) healing (not just musical healing) to millions. The memory of his son would have lived for generations and beyond and his and Mayte's love would have been memorialized. Instead, we have a fakey annulment, possible adultery (and probable emotional betrayel) and a bonfire. What was I thinking?

CooperC62057 said:

I went back and re-read that portion of the book. You are correct-(top of page 264, since we're not allowed to quote).

Two things:
1. If this assistant was a male, Kirk is probably the one who did all of P's bidding for the last 30 years, and if in fact that is the case-knowing Kirk was his Best man and Kirk's brother officiated the wedding ceremony, I have absolutely no respect for him,period!

2. Being that M2 called Mayte on at least 2 other occasions to "spill the beans" (not saying the other instances yet,as we are not to that portion of the book discussion)I have absolutely not doubt that she was the one who stated "it's all gone,I'm so sorry"...


CooperC62507,thanks for clearing up the wording, but now my blood is boiling

amethyst68 said:

I love how she describes him when she woke up in the hospital as being a protective Papa Bear. She goes on to say how tired and beaten down he looked but he'd never been more beautiful. A "solid core of unconditional love". He was there watching Amiir go through each surgical procedure. I'm sure that had to be hard on him watching his son in so much discomfort, especially considering that he appears to be empathic and sensitive.

[Edited 4/13/17 15:01pm]

I totally agree. If you think about it, once Amiir was born, spent more time with him than Mayte did, not because Mayte didn't want to do so, but because she was recovering from surgery.

.

's behavior completely changed when his son was born. He never stopped working or making music...except for those 6 days when his son was alive.