I am seriously of the opinion that the knowing laughter that was exchanged between Prince and the author when the obstetrician mentioned dwarfism, suggests that Prince might have known he had some form of dwarfism.

The human genome had been mapped — even way back then. If anybody could afford to find out absolutly everything about their genes, Prince could.

I love how she describes him when she woke up in the hospital as being a protective Papa Bear. She goes on to say how tired and beaten down he looked but he'd never been more beautiful. A "solid core of unconditional love". He was there watching Amiir go through each surgical procedure. I'm sure that had to be hard on him watching his son in so much discomfort, especially considering that he appears to be empathic and sensitive.

[Edited 4/13/17 15:01pm]

Again, let me put on my nurse's cap...

Popular misconception: Medical recoreds belong to the hospital or doctor.

The truth: Meical records and all medical work product BELONGS TO THE PATIENT.

It's in that booklet they give all patients, that few ever read, called Patient Rights.

They don't like you to know that. You are completely within your rights to do whatever you want with your medical records. THEY ARE YOURS! I've even written additional notes in my chart, because I'm a nurse and know what I'm doing. I don't recommend folks simply randomly doing that. Also, the chart is a LEGAL DOCUMENT and nirse's are taught "if it's not charted, it didn't happen". If a chart is pulled into court, a nurse had better damned well have documeted completely and accurately. Even though doctors and others write in the patient's chart, THE NURSE is considered responsible that accurate documentation occurs.

Prince doesn't have any features of a dwarf. I think his growth may have been stunted because of the umbilical cord being wrapped around his neck while being born. His dad was only 5'4" so he wasn't going to be big either way.

They laughed because, as Mayte stated, dwarfism was a relief compared to other horrors they had imagined.

phatphuk said:

amethyst68 said:

phatphuk said:

Has anybody else picked up on Prince's reaction to the obstetrician's diagnosis of dwarfism? I'm convinced the author is telling us something significant there.

With Prince's preoccupation with the number 7; on top of his fondness for snow¹, it all ties together to suggest — in my opinion — that Prince knew that he himself might have had some form of dwarfism.

______________

¹—“Snows In April” for example…Plus, Minnesota is a synonym for “Snow”

Is that supposed to be a joke?

I am seriously of the opinion that the knowing laughter that was exchanged between Prince and the author when the obstetrician mentioned dwarfism, suggests that Prince might have known he had some form of dwarfism.

The human genome had been mapped — even way back then. If anybody could afford to find out absolutly everything about their genes, Prince could.

206Michelle said:

The details that Mayte shares about o(+>'s behavior during her pregnancy and while Amiir was alive are quite possibly the most heartwarming, magnificent, and flattering descriptions that anyone could ever write about the man. The descriptions of him as a father are so beautiful that I reread them, over and over, using her words to visualize during this brief period of his life when he shined the brightest---as an unconditionally loving and devoted father and husband.

Yes!!!

206Michelle said:

The details that Mayte shares about o(+>'s behavior during her pregnancy and while Amiir was alive are quite possibly the most heartwarming, magnificent, and flattering descriptions that anyone could ever write about the man. The descriptions of him as a father are so beautiful that I reread them, over and over, using her words to visualize during this brief period of his life when he shined the brightest---as an unconditionally loving and devoted father and husband.

Yes.

The "terror in his eyes" that some media focussed one wasn't about "Ew, my baby's deformed and not what I expected."

The terror was "WTF??? How do I help my child and make this all better??? Fast? And keep his mother/my wife safe from seeing him like this and upset her before I can fix everything???"

She tells of him saying he didn't want her to be upset and see Amiir until he "was better", fully meaning until the baby was stable and wouldn't upset her more.

P wasn't put off or "Ewed" out in any way, shape or form. He rose to the occassion and took his place as Amiir's father.

I was so proud of him.

[Edited 4/13/17 15:05pm]

This chapter is beautiful but frustrating for me. Once again, Mayte made sacrifices for Prince. She wanted to know more but he refused amnio. There were warning signs that something was wrong and they did not act. No one else is saying what I am thinking: this tragedy may have been preventable. In the end, Mayte is the only person who can say she had a baby with Prince, and that makes her special, but it hurts my heart that they were ignoring warning signs and medical advice from the very beginning.

My heart goes out to him. Just think, while Mayte was in the hospital, Prince was having the nursey done at Paisley Park and the playground installed. So hopeful.

Did we mention before the baby was born, Prince and Mayte praying over their child? Mayte's prayer about "don't you hurt this man who has great faith in you" absolutely brought me to tears.

NickiStarr said:

This chapter is beautiful but frustrating for me. Once again, Mayte made sacrifices for Prince. She wanted to know more but he refused amnio. There were warning signs that something was wrong and they did not act. No one else is saying what I am thinking: this tragedy may have been preventable. In the end, Mayte is the only person who can say she had a baby with Prince, and that makes her special, but it hurts my heart that they were ignoring warning signs and medical advice from the very beginning.

The only thing that amnio would've changed would've been that they might've decided to abort, which I doubt.

Amnio would'nt have prevented Amiir's medical issues, they already existed in the same as if a child had Down's Syndrome...You'd know but it would'nt change things...unless you abort.

Wait, why did she panic? Because of the IM conversation? I understood and agree with most of your statement but need clarification.

precioux said:

PennyPurple said:

She's not to be trusted. I actually think that she might be the friend who told Mayte that her stuff was burned. She was acting as Maytes friend while trying to hurt Mayte with that piece of info.

I agree 100% Penny...and I'll take it a step further. I think when the impending unsealing of the divorce docs was upon M2, she panicked, bc she KNEW what was in those court docs....and once they were unsealed everyone was like "what was the big deal? why did M2 retain an attorney? nothing was revelealed that put her/Prince in a bad light"....some info was REDACTED:FACT. Being that we all know about the IM message in which M2 asks P "did you burn my things like you did Mayte's in LG's backyard?" Who's to say that the contents of exactly what was butned in LG's backyard were not revealed because it was redacted from the divorce docs, hence M2 contacting M1 to give her a "heads up", with M2 believing this bit of info may come out....AND M2 was P's "assistant".

NickiStarr said:

This chapter is beautiful but frustrating for me. Once again, Mayte made sacrifices for Prince. She wanted to know more but he refused amnio. There were warning signs that something was wrong and they did not act. No one else is saying what I am thinking: this tragedy may have been preventable. In the end, Mayte is the only person who can say she had a baby with Prince, and that makes her special, but it hurts my heart that they were ignoring warning signs and medical advice from the very beginning.

Amnio would not have given then a definitive answer about any genetic disorder, especially not Pfeiffer Syndrome. There was nothing they could have done at that point but to carry the pregnancy out.

He was probably also eager to be 'single' so he could do the deed with M2. Knowing him, he didn't want to go down as a cheater. I bet money they didn't wait until honeymoon night for that. Furthermore, M2 probably slept at night telling herself 'he's not married anymore so I'm not his mistress'

tmo1965 said:

disch said:

I agree, there's nothing in here that demonizes prince. If anything, I ended the book feeling like he was still such an enigma.

-

I think Mayte intentionally kept the focus on her own feelings about what was going on, and didn't delve to much into the phychological Whys of behind Prince's words and actions. For example, why he singled her out as an object of affection? Why did he react in a relatively unemotionally expressive way to her miscarriage? Why exactly did he do the whole house-in-Spain thing? Or the annulment? What exactly about Larry Graham and JH appealed to him? She doesn't spend much time speculating on his motivations or thought process one way or the other. I think that generally was a good choice.

-

But he does remain mysterious at the end; I can't say I know him better (I do know her better!). And I wonder if he was a bit of a mystery to her too, or if she was simply holding back.

I'll bet that the annulment was so that in the eyes of the JWs, he would be free to marry M2. Mayte said in the SheKnows interview that the annulment was a spiritual annulment. I believe that the JWs take a similar view as Catholics about divorce and remarriage, where you would be committing adultery if got divorced and remarried, so you need to get an annulment to pretend that you were never married.

I read some of Mayte's account of Prince practically badgering her to sign the annulment doc. I really thought bad of him for that.

LBrent said:

NickiStarr said:

This chapter is beautiful but frustrating for me. Once again, Mayte made sacrifices for Prince. She wanted to know more but he refused amnio. There were warning signs that something was wrong and they did not act. No one else is saying what I am thinking: this tragedy may have been preventable. In the end, Mayte is the only person who can say she had a baby with Prince, and that makes her special, but it hurts my heart that they were ignoring warning signs and medical advice from the very beginning.

The only thing that amnio would've changed would've been that they might've decided to abort, which I doubt.

Amnio would'nt have prevented Amiir's medical issues, they already existed in the same as if a child had Down's Syndrome...You'd know but it would'nt change things...unless you abort.

Some on another thread discussed this. Even if they didn't abort, knowing what they were going to be dealing with, sort of advanced warning, would have gone a long way towards knowing how to cope with whatever came next. To be taken totally by surprise wasn't necessary.

amethyst68 said:

NickiStarr said:

This chapter is beautiful but frustrating for me. Once again, Mayte made sacrifices for Prince. She wanted to know more but he refused amnio. There were warning signs that something was wrong and they did not act. No one else is saying what I am thinking: this tragedy may have been preventable. In the end, Mayte is the only person who can say she had a baby with Prince, and that makes her special, but it hurts my heart that they were ignoring warning signs and medical advice from the very beginning.

Amnio would not have given then a definitive answer about any genetic disorder, especially not Pfeiffer Syndrome. There was nothing they could have done at that point but to carry the pregnancy out.

Also, amnio has a risk of causing miscarraige.

So, imagine doing amnio and that resulting in the miscarraige of a healthy pregnancy. Happens more often than you'd think cuz the huge needle they use causes the uterus to feel invaded and it might go into premature contractions and miscarry accidentaly.

LBrent said:

amethyst68 said:

Amnio would not have given then a definitive answer about any genetic disorder, especially not Pfeiffer Syndrome. There was nothing they could have done at that point but to carry the pregnancy out.

Also, amnio has a risk of causing miscarraige.

So, imagine doing amnio and that resulting in the miscarraige of a healthy pregnancy. Happens more often than you'd think cuz the huge needle they use causes the uterus to feel invaded and it might go into premature contractions and miscarry accidentaly.

That is what has always crossed my Mind ..the reason he refused amnio....Prince always seemed so well informed.....

LBrent said:

amethyst68 said:

Amnio would not have given then a definitive answer about any genetic disorder, especially not Pfeiffer Syndrome. There was nothing they could have done at that point but to carry the pregnancy out.

Also, amnio has a risk of causing miscarraige.

So, imagine doing amnio and that resulting in the miscarraige of a healthy pregnancy. Happens more often than you'd think cuz the huge needle they use causes the uterus to feel invaded and it might go into premature contractions and miscarry accidentaly.

Not doubting your knowledge LBrent. Mayo Clinic Second-trimester amniocentesis carries a slight risk of miscarriage — about .6 percent. They had so many warning signs of trouble... ikd, I think the risk low and having the test would be smart. But I was never in that position so I really cannot fairly say for sure what I would have done, nor am I a medical professional.

DD55 said:

LBrent said:

Also, amnio has a risk of causing miscarraige.

So, imagine doing amnio and that resulting in the miscarraige of a healthy pregnancy. Happens more often than you'd think cuz the huge needle they use causes the uterus to feel invaded and it might go into premature contractions and miscarry accidentaly.

Not doubting your knowledge LBrent. Mayo Clinic Second-trimester amniocentesis carries a slight risk of miscarriage — about .6 percent. They had so many warning signs of trouble... ikd, I think the risk low and having the test would be smart. But I was never in that position so I really cannot fairly say for sure what I would have done, nor am I a medical professional.

I don't mind be doubted and I don't take it that way.

Also, I'm not tryig to be a know it all, just tryna give y'all info and context to understand a bit of the inside medical mumbo jumbo. I know it can be alot to take in if it's not your field.

Hell, it's alot to take in and it is my field. These two people needed more info and better guidance in this situation instead of being alone with just themselves and the doctors badgering them about complicated ish.

Sad.

NickiStarr said:

I loved how she described the baby rolling over in her belly any time Prince came close. Beautiful memories.

NickiStarr said:

This chapter is beautiful but frustrating for me. Once again, Mayte made sacrifices for Prince. She wanted to know more but he refused amnio. There were warning signs that something was wrong and they did not act. No one else is saying what I am thinking: this tragedy may have been preventable. In the end, Mayte is the only person who can say she had a baby with Prince, and that makes her special, but it hurts my heart that they were ignoring warning signs and medical advice from the very beginning.

NickiStarr, I have thought about that too: If they had done the amniocentesis, would things have turned out differently?

.

I believe that Amiir's death stayed with Prince until the end of his life. I don't think that Prince forgot about Amiir.

.

I wonder if Prince ever had regrets about Amiir.

Did he regret not having the amniocentesis?

Did he regret agreeing to remove life support?

Did he regret the burning of everything that reminded him of Amiir, including the urn?

If he had regrets about Amiir, did he have these regrets at the end of his life?

Since he never had any other children, did Amiir's death weigh on him as he got older?

Did he regret not having other children?

Amiir never came back. How did Prince handle this? Did he ever come to terms with Amiir being gone?

Or did Prince let his pain over his son's death fester and fester? Did the pain over his son's death have any role in causing the events of 4/21/16?

.

Have others pondered these same questions?

For the record, just for informational purposes, I've done some research about Pfeiffer Syndrome type 2 and I am also a special education teacher. If had Amiir lived, I think that it is reasonable to say that he would have had a very severe disability. He probably would have required round-the-clock care. He probably would have had to be in a self-contained class for children who have multiple disabilities or attended a special school that specializes in educating children with significant disabilities.

LBrent said:

I'm withya...Sweet, but also creepy af. And I think you're riight about him possibly feeling it was the only way to acheive a certain kind of intimacy. I wonder if he practiced this with other partners. I've never heard anyone else speak about it.

As for the "drugs"...This part has me thinking something else.

I think P was having seizures all these years and hiding that from everyone cuz he saw it as a sign of weakness. The biggest clue for me as a nurse was the vomit. I think he was referring to the episodes as migraines and maybe sometimes the seizures were accompanied by headaches afterwards and he took something, a painkiller, for that headache. I think in later years he took painkillers at times for his hip/joint pain, but I don't believe that was to the extent of dependancy.

[Edited 4/13/17 0:17am]

Migraines are sometimes accompanied by vomiting. No seizures involved. P said in interview with Tavis Smiley he hadn't experienced epilepsy since childhood.

206Michelle said:

NickiStarr said:

This chapter is beautiful but frustrating for me. Once again, Mayte made sacrifices for Prince. She wanted to know more but he refused amnio. There were warning signs that something was wrong and they did not act. No one else is saying what I am thinking: this tragedy may have been preventable. In the end, Mayte is the only person who can say she had a baby with Prince, and that makes her special, but it hurts my heart that they were ignoring warning signs and medical advice from the very beginning.

NickiStarr, I have thought about that too: If they had done the amniocentesis, would things have turned out differently?

.

I believe that Amiir's death stayed with Prince until the end of his life. I don't think that Prince forgot about Amiir.

.

I wonder if Prince ever had regrets about Amiir.

Did he regret not having the amniocentesis?

Did he regret agreeing to remove life support?

Did he regret the burning of everything that reminded him of Amiir, including the urn?

If he had regrets about Amiir, did he have these regrets at the end of his life?

Since he never had any other children, did Amiir's death weigh on him as he got older?

Did he regret not having other children?

Amiir never came back. How did Prince handle this? Did he ever come to terms with Amiir being gone?

Or did Prince let his pain over his son's death fester and fester? Did the pain over his son's death have any role in causing the events of 4/21/16?

.

Have others pondered these same questions?

Michelle, yes I too have pondered all these questions and more. :tears:

Lovejunky said:

LBrent said:

Also, amnio has a risk of causing miscarraige.

So, imagine doing amnio and that resulting in the miscarraige of a healthy pregnancy. Happens more often than you'd think cuz the huge needle they use causes the uterus to feel invaded and it might go into premature contractions and miscarry accidentaly.

That is what has always crossed my Mind ..the reason he refused amnio....Prince always seemed so well informed.....

I don't have a firm opinion on what they should have done. I don't believe that I can have a firm opinion because I wasn't there. I certainly do not object to 's refusal of the amniocentesis. While the risk of miscarriage from amniocentesis is a very small risk percentage wise, it is still a risk, and it is a life-or-death risk. I can understand why and Mayte (well mainly ) refused the amniocentesis. I can also understand why another couple in a similar situation might choose amniocentesis. Amniocentesis raises a lot of ethical issues and there is no easy answer. For example, if a couple has had issues with infertility or miscarriages, then even the slightest risk of a miscarriage might cause the couple to refuse amniocentesis. There are a lot of factors that go into the decision.

fortuneandserendipity said:

LBrent said:

I'm withya...Sweet, but also creepy af. And I think you're riight about him possibly feeling it was the only way to acheive a certain kind of intimacy. I wonder if he practiced this with other partners. I've never heard anyone else speak about it.

As for the "drugs"...This part has me thinking something else.

I think P was having seizures all these years and hiding that from everyone cuz he saw it as a sign of weakness. The biggest clue for me as a nurse was the vomit. I think he was referring to the episodes as migraines and maybe sometimes the seizures were accompanied by headaches afterwards and he took something, a painkiller, for that headache. I think in later years he took painkillers at times for his hip/joint pain, but I don't believe that was to the extent of dependancy.

[Edited 4/13/17 0:17am]

Migraines are sometimes accompanied by vomiting. No seizures involved. P said in interview with Tavis Smiley he hadn't experienced epilepsy since childhood.

You're right on both counts.

I love him dearly...but I don't believe that. I think P believed it though.

[Edited 4/13/17 16:15pm]

206Michelle said:

For the record, just for informational purposes, I've done some research about Pfeiffer Syndrome type 2 and I am also a special education teacher. If had Amiir lived, I think that it is reasonable to say that he would have had a very severe disability. He probably would have required round-the-clock care. He probably would have had to be in a self-contained class for children who have multiple disabilities or attended a special school that specializes in educating children with significant disabilities.

Yup. We call these types of disabilities "catastrophic". But Amiir would've had two devoted parents and likely an entire wing of PP dedicated to his care as well.

Interestingly enough, in those days the prognosis was "incompatible with life" but now there are children who are born with the same and sometimes worse cases of PS2 who survive and thrive. You can see some families documenting these children playing and growing and riding bikes on YouTube.

Unfortunately, these chidren have had upwards of 20-30 surgical procedures to get them there. Mayte didn't seem able to mitigate whatever short term suffering might get her Amiir to anywhere near that point. I'm not blaming or judging her, far from it.

Parenting special needs children isn't for the faint of heart. But she does make clear that P was totally on board with moving forward with heroic measures and that she was the one who could'nt bear what she felt was "torturing Amiir". I wonder if the doctors had shown her babies who had sucessfully been assisted with surgery to correct even those most complicated of the baby's issues and they had better support with family she might've felt more able to consider continuing.

Without the procedures he would'nt live, but with MANY PAINFUL procedures he could've not only survived, but thrived.

It's a difficult Catch-22 for any parent.

But she makes it clear that she convinced P to let him go.

[Edited 4/13/17 16:19pm]