purplegirl00 said:

30yearfan said:

Prince and Vanity attended the 1983 Grammy awards which were held in Los Angeles at the Shrine Auditorium. That was the year that Toto won everything for the song Rosanna. On a side note, a few pages back in this thread someone was talking about the song Indifference possibly being about Vanity. I don't think it's about her. My opinion on Indifference is that it is a song about him taking control over his life from the people that seek to do him harm. Those people or forces come in different forms. He talks about someone coming as Mother Teresa but acting like a whore. He talks about a nightmare running in place while your puppeteers give chase, that could be people in the industry possibly, but I think the general theme is someone who has two-faces. This would definitely not be about Vanity/Denise. The Vanity songs are more storytelling like Adore or they have a strong emotion like Something in the Water. The later songs about Vanity also have a throwback to a previous song that he wrote. Like Lion of Judah where he references Adore (still I adore u). Or one of my favorites Chelsea Rodgers which has an interesting take on Little Red Corvette. He says the line in LRC girl you got an a... like I've never seen. Well in Chelsea Rodgers he says you still got butt like a letter C. Meaning even though you're older and deeply in your faith, Prince being Prince is still checking out the booty. LOL In LRC he describes her as fast and needed him to tame her. Well in Chelsea Rodgers he is admiring her spiritually. He talks about how she poured out her tears to save he soul. He admires the knowledge that she has gained (Chelsea read more books that a few), he references her celibacy (try to catch her if you can, you never see her with one man). Remember in LRC he talked about the pictures of the other jockeys making him ill because there was so many. In this song he admires how she now cherishes her body and will not be with a man unless he is baptized according to the master plan. This song was written around the time when Prince was embracing celibacy himself so I definitely think she was his motivation to become celibate. The other great line in the song is when he says go head Chelsea teach me. That is the ultimate compliment because now the mentor is asking the protege to teach him.

I think it was Beachy and I looking at the lyrics to Indifference but it didn't make sense for it to be about Vanity because of the time period (too new). Your theory makes sense. . Chelsea Rodgers does match her conversion and his thoughts about it. I think him talking about her butt being the size of "a leather seat"again (like in Wonderful Ass) gives it away for me. In LRC, acknowleges all the jocks that were there before him and in songs after their break-up he sings about the "others" (men she had going). Then in Chelsea Rodgers, "you never see her with my man" (celibacy). Then he says, "a brother has to jump in the water" (meaning she wants him to become Christian). Nice observation! It's interesting for sure. . In the Melbourne tribute he sings a song by Bob Marley- Waiting in Vain (for your love). In her Facebook, before her death, she goes into this long thing about Bob Marley. I wonder about that. Maybe they talked about Bob Marley before she died? .

Oh wow. I didn't know that she spoke about Bob Marley on facebook. I'll have to go check that out.

UTCM is up on YT in 8 parts if someone wants to see it.

Part 1 is here:

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2IqbwUTvn8

.

The artwork on Prince's twitter March 31 that referenced the Parade article for its 30th anniversary definitely refers to the theme of the movie: If two souls are one, if that's the ultimate, then the flesh is nothing! We're living in a parade.

.

Some highlights:

.

At the beginning of the film, a voiceover says:

.

Once upon a time in France
there lived a bad boy name Christopher Tracey

Only 1 thing mattered 2 Christopher... money
the women he knew came in all sizes shapes & colors
and they were all rich, very rich

Private concertos kind words & fun is what he had 2 offer them
yes Christopher lived 4 all women
but he died 4 1
Somewhere along the way he learned the true meaning of love.

.

.

In the middle of the film around 53:00 Christopher has a conversation with Tricky that goes like this:

.

C: Tricky, today is a wonderful day. How'd you dig it if I told you I was leaving the business.
That's right. Christopher Tracy, an honest man.
C: Seriously, I keep thinking, that if you really love someone
It will go deeper than the flesh
It'd be heavier than sex!
Really Tricky there's got to be something else!
If two people really dug one another
They couldn't be torn apart no matter what happened.
For example, do you love me? (Tricky makes a face)
Come on Tricky, you know what I'm talking about.
T: Girl I loved you for years!
C: Tricky, seriously, do you?
T: Well, yeah I guess
C: Do you?
T: Yeah! Yeah
C: That's my point.
If two souls are one, if that's the ultimate, then the flesh is nothing! Dig?
We're living in a parade.
T: Yes I dig. I'll be the one digging your grave.
Listen. I like Mary as much as you do. Probably more.
But this is business.
C: Tricky, try to understand.
T: No, you understand! If we don't get some bread and get back to Miami soon,
Isaac Sharon's going to mess one of us up. And honey, it ain't going to be me!
C: What's the matter? You afraid to die?
TL Yes!
C: Well, I ain't afraid of shit.
T: Are you afraid of bats?
(scream and run)

.

And near the end of the film the girl (Mary) read the poem he left for her, "An Honest Man"

(around 1:26:00)

.

I want 2 be an honest man
I'll be Ur slave, just understand
How much I need U
And if I lie, I'm part of U
This is my crime
I do know laughter, I do know tears
But all is nothing, without U near
We are of 1 soul, and if I die
We'll be together side by side
With U I know that I can stand
With U I can be an honest man

.

after he is shot, the final scene

around 1:32:35 (right after the song SISIA)

(voiceover by Christopher:)
If 2 people really loved 1another
They'd be 2gether forever
They couldn't be torn apart no matter what happened.

(Tricky gets a letter from Mary that says:)
My darling Tricky,
Being alone is hard but I'm dealing with it.
Although many have asked,
I just can't picture myself with anyone else
I guess Christopher was right after all.
What a world, eh?

.

Here again is the artwork:

[img:$uid]http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a477/hyperboly/prince%20march%2031%20tweet%20pic%20hearts%20connected_zpsmp325qsw.jpg[/img:$uid]

[Edited 5/23/16 7:55am]

[Edited 5/23/16 8:11am]

beachy said:

UTCM is up on YT in 8 parts if someone wants to see it.

Part 1 is here:

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2IqbwUTvn8

.

The artwork on Prince's twitter March 31 that referenced the Parade article for its 30th anniversary definitely refers to the theme of the movie: If two souls are one, if that's the ultimate, then the flesh is nothing! We're living in a parade.

Some highlights:

At the beginning of the film, a voiceover says:

.

Once upon a time in France
there lived a bad boy name Christopher Tracey

Only 1 thing mattered 2 Christopher... money
the women he knew came in all sizes shapes & colors
and they were all rich, very rich

Private concertos kind words & fun is what he had 2 offer them
yes Christopher lived 4 all women
but he died 4 1
Somewhere along the way he learned the true meaning of love.

.

.

In the middle of the film around 53:00 Christopher has a conversation with Tricky that goes like this:

.

C: Tricky, today is a wonderful day. How'd you dig it if I told you I was leaving the business.
That's right. Christopher Tracy, an honest man.
C: Seriously, I keep thinking, that if you really love someone
It will go deeper than the flesh
It'd be heavier than sex!
Really Tricky there's got to be something else!
If two people really dug one another
They couldn't be torn apart no matter what happened.
For example, do you love me? (Tricky makes a face)
Come on Tricky, you know what I'm talking about.
T: Girl I loved you for years!
C: Tricky, seriously, do you?
T: Well, yeah I guess
C: Do you?
T: Yeah! Yeah
C: That's my point.
If two souls are one, if that's the ultimate, then the flesh is nothing! Dig?
We're living in a parade.
T: Yes I dig. I'll be the one digging your grave.
Listen. I like Mary as much as you do. Probably more.
But this is business.
C: Tricky, try to understand.
T: No, you understand! If we don't get some bread and get back to Miami soon,
Isaac Sharon's going to mess one of us up. And honey, it ain't going to be me!
C: What's the matter? You afraid to die?
TL Yes!
C: Well, I ain't afraid of shit.
T: Are you afraid of bats?
(scream and run)

.

And near the end of the film the girl (Mary) read the poem he left for her, "An Honest Man"

(around 1:26:00)

.

I want 2 be an honest man
I'll be Ur slave, just understand
How much I need U
And if I lie, I'm part of U
This is my crime
I do know laughter, I do know tears
But all is nothing, without U near
We are of 1 soul, and if I die
We'll be together side by side
With U I know that I can stand
With U I can be an honest man
.

Here again is the artwork:

[img:$uid]http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a477/hyperboly/prince%20march%2031%20tweet%20pic%20hearts%20connected_zpsmp325qsw.jpg[/img:$uid]

[Edited 5/23/16 7:55am]

to the poem! Supposedly UTCM was about Susannah and I don't know where I got that from. I think it was posted here on the org somewhere. Also, she was supposed to star in it but she couldn't act so Prince sent her home. Was this information in those books with the W/L bias?

.

This is probably reaching, but in trying to tie this together. My guess is that what's everyone thought- UTCM was about Susannah, but in trying to clear the misconception, subliminally, you've got Denise/Vanity wearing the pants he wore on the cover of Parade and him wearing the trench coat? It's strange and there may be no connection.

.

That was the artwork posted earlier in this thread and was Prince's twitter back in March to celebrate the 30th anniversary of the release of Parade. The woman looks more like Denise to me, than Susannah.

beachy said:

UTCM is up on YT in 8 parts if someone wants to see it.

Part 1 is here:

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2IqbwUTvn8

.

The artwork on Prince's twitter March 31 that referenced the Parade article for its 30th anniversary definitely refers to the theme of the movie: If two souls are one, if that's the ultimate, then the flesh is nothing! We're living in a parade.

.

Some highlights:

.

At the beginning of the film, a voiceover says:

.

Once upon a time in France
there lived a bad boy name Christopher Tracey

Only 1 thing mattered 2 Christopher... money
the women he knew came in all sizes shapes & colors
and they were all rich, very rich

Private concertos kind words & fun is what he had 2 offer them
yes Christopher lived 4 all women
but he died 4 1
Somewhere along the way he learned the true meaning of love.

.

.

In the middle of the film around 53:00 Christopher has a conversation with Tricky that goes like this:

.

C: Tricky, today is a wonderful day. How'd you dig it if I told you I was leaving the business.
That's right. Christopher Tracy, an honest man.
C: Seriously, I keep thinking, that if you really love someone
It will go deeper than the flesh
It'd be heavier than sex!
Really Tricky there's got to be something else!
If two people really dug one another
They couldn't be torn apart no matter what happened.
For example, do you love me? (Tricky makes a face)
Come on Tricky, you know what I'm talking about.
T: Girl I loved you for years!
C: Tricky, seriously, do you?
T: Well, yeah I guess
C: Do you?
T: Yeah! Yeah
C: That's my point.
If two souls are one, if that's the ultimate, then the flesh is nothing! Dig?
We're living in a parade.
T: Yes I dig. I'll be the one digging your grave.
Listen. I like Mary as much as you do. Probably more.
But this is business.
C: Tricky, try to understand.
T: No, you understand! If we don't get some bread and get back to Miami soon,
Isaac Sharon's going to mess one of us up. And honey, it ain't going to be me!
C: What's the matter? You afraid to die?
TL Yes!
C: Well, I ain't afraid of shit.
T: Are you afraid of bats?
(scream and run)

.

And near the end of the film the girl (Mary) read the poem he left for her, "An Honest Man"

(around 1:26:00)

.

I want 2 be an honest man
I'll be Ur slave, just understand
How much I need U
And if I lie, I'm part of U
This is my crime
I do know laughter, I do know tears
But all is nothing, without U near
We are of 1 soul, and if I die
We'll be together side by side
With U I know that I can stand
With U I can be an honest man

.

after he is shot, the final scene

around 1:32:35 (right after the song SISIA)

(voiceover by Christopher:)
If 2 people really loved 1another
They'd be 2gether forever
They couldn't be torn apart no matter what happened.

(Tricky gets a letter from Mary that says:)
My darling Tricky,
Being alone is hard but I'm dealing with it.
Although many have asked,
I just can't picture myself with anyone else
I guess Christopher was right after all.
What a world, eh?

.

Here again is the artwork:

[img:$uid]http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a477/hyperboly/prince%20march%2031%20tweet%20pic%20hearts%20connected_zpsmp325qsw.jpg[/img:$uid]

[Edited 5/23/16 7:55am]

[Edited 5/23/16 8:11am]

Beachy, this is outstanding. I'm telling you, Prince's music is so deep. I think a lot of his songs were written on such a spiritual level that many of his lyrics can't be understood until long after the song is written. An honest man on the Crystal Ball cd is amazing. I think it was the man that he always wanted to be and was striving to be. In the end he actually did die for one woman. Prince is like an onion, the more layers you pull back the more layers you find. Awesome take.

30yearfan said:

beachy said:

UTCM is up on YT in 8 parts if someone wants to see it.

Part 1 is here:

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2IqbwUTvn8

.

The artwork on Prince's twitter March 31 that referenced the Parade article for its 30th anniversary definitely refers to the theme of the movie: If two souls are one, if that's the ultimate, then the flesh is nothing! We're living in a parade.

.

Some highlights:

.

At the beginning of the film, a voiceover says:

.

Once upon a time in France
there lived a bad boy name Christopher Tracey

Only 1 thing mattered 2 Christopher... money
the women he knew came in all sizes shapes & colors
and they were all rich, very rich

Private concertos kind words & fun is what he had 2 offer them
yes Christopher lived 4 all women
but he died 4 1
Somewhere along the way he learned the true meaning of love.

.

.

In the middle of the film around 53:00 Christopher has a conversation with Tricky that goes like this:

.

C: Tricky, today is a wonderful day. How'd you dig it if I told you I was leaving the business.
That's right. Christopher Tracy, an honest man.
C: Seriously, I keep thinking, that if you really love someone
It will go deeper than the flesh
It'd be heavier than sex!
Really Tricky there's got to be something else!
If two people really dug one another
They couldn't be torn apart no matter what happened.
For example, do you love me? (Tricky makes a face)
Come on Tricky, you know what I'm talking about.
T: Girl I loved you for years!
C: Tricky, seriously, do you?
T: Well, yeah I guess
C: Do you?
T: Yeah! Yeah
C: That's my point.
If two souls are one, if that's the ultimate, then the flesh is nothing! Dig?
We're living in a parade.
T: Yes I dig. I'll be the one digging your grave.
Listen. I like Mary as much as you do. Probably more.
But this is business.
C: Tricky, try to understand.
T: No, you understand! If we don't get some bread and get back to Miami soon,
Isaac Sharon's going to mess one of us up. And honey, it ain't going to be me!
C: What's the matter? You afraid to die?
TL Yes!
C: Well, I ain't afraid of shit.
T: Are you afraid of bats?
(scream and run)

.

And near the end of the film the girl (Mary) read the poem he left for her, "An Honest Man"

(around 1:26:00)

.

I want 2 be an honest man
I'll be Ur slave, just understand
How much I need U
And if I lie, I'm part of U
This is my crime
I do know laughter, I do know tears
But all is nothing, without U near
We are of 1 soul, and if I die
We'll be together side by side
With U I know that I can stand
With U I can be an honest man

.

after he is shot, the final scene

around 1:32:35 (right after the song SISIA)

(voiceover by Christopher:)
If 2 people really loved 1another
They'd be 2gether forever
They couldn't be torn apart no matter what happened.

(Tricky gets a letter from Mary that says:)
My darling Tricky,
Being alone is hard but I'm dealing with it.
Although many have asked,
I just can't picture myself with anyone else
I guess Christopher was right after all.
What a world, eh?

.

Here again is the artwork:

[img:$uid]http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a477/hyperboly/prince%20march%2031%20tweet%20pic%20hearts%20connected_zpsmp325qsw.jpg[/img:$uid]

[Edited 5/23/16 7:55am]

[Edited 5/23/16 8:11am]

Beachy, this is outstanding. I'm telling you, Prince's music is so deep. I think a lot of his songs were written on such a spiritual level that many of his lyrics can't be understood until long after the song is written. An honest man on the Crystal Ball cd is amazing. I think it was the man that he always wanted to be and was striving to be. In the end he actually did die for one woman. Prince is like an onion, the more layers you pull back the more layers you find. Awesome take.

Absolutely agree 30yearfan! I have even MORE appreciation for Prince's music now and you're analogy about the onion is right on. There are more levels/dimensions in his music. In that back and forth with Tricky, he is talking straight to her. While she was drop gorgeous, his love for her was profoundly deeper than that- connected at the soul as one (like the artwork shows). Great work Beachy!

.

Not knocking the actress who played Mary, she is beautiful in her own right, but you could imagine had Vanity/Denise played that part instead? WOW.

Susannah wrote this on her public Facebook page when Vanity passed:

She and Vanity were also Facebook friends

scriptgirl said:

Susannah wrote this on her public Facebook page when Vanity passed:

Susannah Melvoin Artist Page

February 15 ·

Rip Denise "Vanity" Matthews... No more pain ..
Just rest sweet one ..just rest...

She and Vanity were also Facebook friends

No bad blood at the end. Thanks for posting this scriptgirl!

Considering the upheaval that Susannah has gone through re that shitty ex hubby of hers, I think Vanity was the least of her concerns. HOWEVER, while Susannah seems okay with Vanity, Lisa, Wendy and the rest of the Revolution aren't. L&W did not acknowledge V's passing on their twitter or FB.

endiadj said:

i must say, i've never seen anything like! so many ex's of prince became good friends, ex-wives even. it's like they became one big happy family! prince truly was a magical man.

It is "Strange but True".

I think it's a facade. I think a lot of those women are putting on a face. There are some you just never see around each other.

I never see Brenda or Susie around anyone but Apples.

You never see Jill around Wendy, Lisa, Susannah, Mayte, Mani

You never see anyone around Mani from the Prince camp but Mayte

Sheila E will hang with Mayte, but I never Jill around her. And on and on.

scriptgirl said:

I think it's a facade. I think a lot of those women are putting on a face. There are some you just never see around each other.

I never see Brenda or Susie around anyone but Apples.

You never see Jill around Wendy, Lisa, Susannah, Mayte, Mani

You never see anyone around Mani from the Prince camp but Mayte

Sheila E will hang with Mayte, but I never Jill around her. And on and on.

You could be right, but it's still bizarre that any of them hung around each other. It seems like, based on the groups you put together, their relationship or connections had more to do with the time frame of their connection with Prince.

Here's "Eye Hate U", another one that seems/could be about Denise/Vanity. He was with Mayte at this time (Mayte is in the video so it would not be about her). Maybe this is right before Denise married the football player? It's a great kiss off song.

Like I said, there are some that are sincere-Brenda, Susie, Mayte-I don't sense an agenda with them

There are some that try or pretend to be above it all-Susannah, Mani, Wendy and Lisa, Shelia E, Cat, Carmen, Andy, Damaris

Some who are bitter-Jill

Some who have an agenda-Jill, Mani, Wendy and Lisa

Some who never should have been in the P camp to begin with-Apples, Ingrid

Then there are others who are never really seen or heard from-Cat, Ingrid, Susie, Brenda, Martika, Bria, Anna Fantastic, Troy Beyer

Look you can't put all those woman together in one room or have them all around and have just peace and love. Life doesnt't work that way. I think there is some real drama that may be unresolved with all those women, esp the ones who were around from 1980-86-the core proteges/women.

I think a lot of people are grieving, in shock, etc. But I think some core truths may or may not come out. I think with the older group of women/proteges, that may not happen, because they were not raised in the social media generation and they may be old school about privacy, which is great. They also have families and loved ones to consider.

But the ones who came after 2000, may be different.

And I don't hate Wendy and Lisa-I love them, I just don't like what I perceive is their attitude toward Vanity, who was my everything.

scriptgirl said:

Like I said, there are some that are sincere-Brenda, Susie, Mayte-I don't sense an agenda with them

There are some that try or pretend to be above it all-Susannah, Mani, Wendy and Lisa, Shelia E, Cat, Carmen, Andy, Damaris

Some who are bitter-Jill

Some who have an agenda-Jill, Mani, Wendy and Lisa

Some who never should have been in the P camp to begin with-Apples, Ingrid

Then there are others who are never really seen or heard from-Cat, Ingrid, Susie, Brenda, Martika, Bria, Anna Fantastic, Troy Beyer

Look you can't put all those woman together in one room or have them all around and have just peace and love. Life doesnt't work that way. I think there is some real drama that may be unresolved with all those women, esp the ones who were around from 1980-86-the core proteges/women.

I think a lot of people are grieving, in shock, etc. But I think some core truths may or may not come out. I think with the older group of women/proteges, that may not happen, because they were not raised in the social media generation and they may be old school about privacy, which is great. They also have families and loved ones to consider.

But the ones who came after 2000, may be different.

And I don't hate Wendy and Lisa-I love them, I just don't like what I perceive is their attitude toward Vanity, who was my everything.

Excellent post. Some of these "friendships" are probably facades or maybe just for appearances- to make everyone think they are all good with each other, who knows. As far as Wendy and Lisa's attitude towards Vanity, I think she presented loyality issues to them. They were not happy at the amount of time & focus Prince was giving her. Maybe they percieved that the connection between them far outlasted their relationship and couldn't understand it. Here they had been loyal to him so why was he still wasting time on her- she left him. There could be so many things at play. I think you're right though, we may or may not learn some truths because of everyone's grieving and desire for privacy (not putting things on social media).

It's hard to say who some of these might be about without some kind of statement from Prince or a telltale detail but 'Eye Hate U' was recorded initially in early 1994 according to Princevault. That makes me think that it might be referring to Carmen Electra rather than to Vanity unless he rewrote it after she got married which could certainly be the case, because he remixed it in mid 1995.

.

From wiki re the song:

;

The most notable was an extended remix which omitted the "courtroom drama" and featured Prince delivering much more personal lyrics. A rumor at the time was that the lyrics of this version referred to Carmen Electra (whom Prince had worked with and dated for a time) after it was discovered that she "gave her body to" N.P.G. member Tony M. "in the name of fun".

.

I had some additional details to that breakup with Carmen which I don't want to post publicly but yeah that was messy.

.

I think Prince will take details from several experiences though and mash them together with a theme and make it a commercial song. So he will add the I love you's etc. and it might be a composite of experiences he had with Vanity and someone else. But like Prince said with the best songs there is some event that inspires it, like he explained for the Beautiful Ones, Vanity had just left, but the line about is it him or is it me, that had to be there to go along with the storyline of the movie (and also Prince would probably not admit that Vanity left him for someone else, ie rejected him and chose Albert or Micki or Andre or Adam Ant etc)

[Edited 5/23/16 12:12pm]

purplegirl00 said:

scriptgirl said:

Like I said, there are some that are sincere-Brenda, Susie, Mayte-I don't sense an agenda with them

There are some that try or pretend to be above it all-Susannah, Mani, Wendy and Lisa, Shelia E, Cat, Carmen, Andy, Damaris

Some who are bitter-Jill

Some who have an agenda-Jill, Mani, Wendy and Lisa

Some who never should have been in the P camp to begin with-Apples, Ingrid

Then there are others who are never really seen or heard from-Cat, Ingrid, Susie, Brenda, Martika, Bria, Anna Fantastic, Troy Beyer

Look you can't put all those woman together in one room or have them all around and have just peace and love. Life doesnt't work that way. I think there is some real drama that may be unresolved with all those women, esp the ones who were around from 1980-86-the core proteges/women.

I think a lot of people are grieving, in shock, etc. But I think some core truths may or may not come out. I think with the older group of women/proteges, that may not happen, because they were not raised in the social media generation and they may be old school about privacy, which is great. They also have families and loved ones to consider.

But the ones who came after 2000, may be different.

And I don't hate Wendy and Lisa-I love them, I just don't like what I perceive is their attitude toward Vanity, who was my everything.

Excellent post. Some of these "friendships" are probably facades or maybe just for appearances- to make everyone think they are all good with each other, who knows. As far as Wendy and Lisa's attitude towards Vanity, I think she presented loyality issues to them. They were not happy at the amount of time & focus Prince was giving her. Maybe they percieved that the connection between them far outlasted their relationship and couldn't understand it. Here they had been loyal to him so why was he still wasting time on her- she left him. There could be so many things at play. I think you're right though, we may or may not learn some truths because of everyone's grieving and desire for privacy (not putting things on social media).

It must be difficult for every one of them because essentially they were all part of an extended harem and still defined by it and of course Prince treated them all according to his whims and had his favorites just like any harem. Even when Vanity was with him there were reports that he was rotating her with Susan and Jill while they were on tour. That treatment is pretty hard to swallow when you are in love with someone and hoping also to be elevated to be the queen.

I read that he treated Vanity and Susannah etc as his 'main' girlfriend but by no means his only one.

Carmen Electra has managed to stay apart from it, also Nona Gaye.

I tend to think of them in terms of chronological groups.

the originals, including Vanity

the Revolution/Susannah

Sheila and Cat and late 80s

Early 90s - Carmen, Mayte, Nona

then the 2 marriages, Mayte and Mani

post marriage group from Tamar onward

.

I would imagine there might be jealousy both within a group and to a later or earlier group and its members. There was a ton of women involved. I think he was really only faithful for a few years when he married Mani not so much because of her but because of JW. But it didn't last.

[Edited 5/23/16 12:14pm]

beachy said:

It's hard to say who some of these might be about without some kind of statement from Prince or a telltale detail but 'Eye Hate U' was recorded initially in early 1994 according to Princevault. That makes me think that it might be referring to Carmen Electra rather than to Vanity unless he rewrote it after she got married which could certainly be the case, because he remixed it in mid 1995.

.

From wiki re the song:

;

The most notable was an extended remix which omitted the "courtroom drama" and featured Prince delivering much more personal lyrics. A rumor at the time was that the lyrics of this version referred to Carmen Electra (whom Prince had worked with and dated for a time) after it was discovered that she "gave her body to" N.P.G. member Tony M. "in the name of fun".

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I had some additional details to that breakup with Carmen which I don't want to post publicly but yeah that was messy.

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I think Prince will take details from several experiences though and mash them together with a theme and make it a commercial song. So he will add the I love you's etc. and it might be a composite of experiences he had with Vanity and someone else.

I didn't really follow Prince's relationship with Electra, but now that you gave that info, it fits better for her.

beachy said:

purplegirl00 said:

Excellent post. Some of these "friendships" are probably facades or maybe just for appearances- to make everyone think they are all good with each other, who knows. As far as Wendy and Lisa's attitude towards Vanity, I think she presented loyality issues to them. They were not happy at the amount of time & focus Prince was giving her. Maybe they percieved that the connection between them far outlasted their relationship and couldn't understand it. Here they had been loyal to him so why was he still wasting time on her- she left him. There could be so many things at play. I think you're right though, we may or may not learn some truths because of everyone's grieving and desire for privacy (not putting things on social media).

It must be difficult for every one of them because essentially they were all part of an extended harem and still defined by it and of course Prince treated them all according to his whims and had his favorites just like any harem. Even when Vanity was with him there were reports that he was rotating her with Susan and Jill while they were on tour. That treatment is pretty hard to swallow when you are in love with someone and hoping also to be elevated to be the queen.

I read that he treated Vanity and Susannah etc as his 'main' girlfriend but by no means his only one.

Carmen Electra has managed to stay apart from it, also Nona Gaye.

I tend to think of them in terms of chronological groups.

the originals, including Vanity

the Revolution/Susannah

Sheila and Cat and late 80s

Early 90s - Carmen, Mayte, Nona

then the 2 marriages, Mayte and Mani

post marriage group from Tamar onward

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I would imagine there might be jealousy both within a group and to a later or earlier group and its members. There was a ton of women involved. I think he was really only faithful for a few years when he married Mani not so much because of her but because of JW. But it didn't last.

[Edited 5/23/16 12:14pm]

There was jealousy all around and in between, there had to have been. I'm sure he was telling all of them he "loved" them too.

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I'm not sure I believe the whole celibacy thing in the last few years. I guess people could change. Who were the more "recent" love interests?

[Edited 5/23/16 12:26pm]

here's what some innocent bystanders had to say of the situation they observed:

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“He juggled the affairs on a day-to-day basis,” said Alan Leeds, who would soon be called in to stop the 1999 tour from falling apart. “Some nights Vanity would disappear with Prince, then some nights Jill would appear on the Prince bus, leaving Vanity in the hotel.”

According to Barney Hoskyns, who covered the tour for the New Musical Express: “Nobody seems to remark how peculiar it is that Vanity, supposedly enjoying a pride of place between the little chap’s sheets, actually kips on her own in a separate bus & scarcely exchanges a word with him throughout the days I’m on the tour.”

in case anyone is not familiar with brit slang, kips means to stay or board overnight. (from Prince: Chaos, Disorder, and Revolution by Jason Draper)

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Personally. I would have left like Vanity did, and probably not have been as sweet about it.

The Oral history article I posted yesterday, part of it was by Wendy who said they had a huge blowup.

COLEMAN Vanity was supposed to be the lead, but she left right before the film. It almost tanked the film. I don’t know what happened. Maybe it was a personal issue between her and Prince. They were dating.

MELVOIN My only speculation was that they had a big blowout. That’s what I heard. They had a huge blowout and she bolted.

.

From everything I have read I believe Prince kept women at arm's length and off balance by playing them off against each other. He also reportedly gave rings to Susan Moonsie in 1981 and to Susannah Melvoin in 1985. He spoke about marriage or being married to or about Vanity, Nona, and probably several others. How much of it was sincere and how much a game he played I do not know. All I know for sure is his own statement that he used to love Vanity deeply. I also believe that all the stuff he said about being soulmates with Mayte was mostly to hurt Vanity and show her she had been replaced. I am sure he cared about Mayte I am not saying he didn't but its the way he said that bit in the Spin magazine about how everyone thought he would marry Vanity. I have no proof that is just the way I think he was playing it.

[Edited 5/23/16 12:57pm]

[Edited 5/23/16 13:47pm]

I'm not sure who was an actual lover recently but the ones I heard had been included Tamar, Andy Allo and Damaris. Oh yeah and Bria. For some reason I cannot believe that one was real, and I think it was celibate. They just did not look right together. She was too big for him and the vibe was off. Maybe it was for PR and they were friends and the image helped him and he helped her with her career? I could be off.

[Edited 5/23/16 12:37pm]

Carmen , like Vanity, 'gave her body for fun' well I believe it was similarly a revenge f*k after Prince was found to be playing in other 'playpens' as Vanity put it in her autobiography.

CE was pretty funny, the story goes she left some used condoms and her panties in his bathroom after using P's bed with Tony. Respect to Carmen lol. turnabout is fair play. story goes he was shellshocked for weeks, like he'd been slapped and couldn't believe it. lol. I like this story because it was like she did it on behalf of all the women in his harem lol

[Edited 5/23/16 12:47pm]

beachy said:

here's what some innocent bystanders had to say of the situation they observed:

.

“He juggled the affairs on a day-to-day basis,” said Alan Leeds, who would soon be called in to stop the 1999 tour from falling apart. “Some nights Vanity would disappear with Prince, then some nights Jill would appear on the Prince bus, leaving Vanity in the hotel.”

According to Barney Hoskyns, who covered the tour for the New Musical Express: “Nobody seems to remark how peculiar it is that Vanity, supposedly enjoying a pride of place between the little chap’s sheets, actually kips on her own in a separate bus & scarcely exchanges a word with him throughout the days I’m on the tour.”

in case anyone is not familiar with brit slang, kips means to stay or board overnight. (from Prince: Chaos, Disorder, and Revolution by Jason Draper)

.

Personally. I would have left like Vanity did, and probably not have been as sweet about it.

The Oral history article I posted yesterday, part of it was by Wendy who said they had a huge blowup.

COLEMAN Vanity was supposed to be the lead, but she left right before the film. It almost tanked the film. I don’t know what happened. Maybe it was a personal issue between her and Prince. They were dating.

MELVOIN My only speculation was that they had a big blowout. That’s what I heard. They had a huge blowout and she bolted.

I wouldn't have put up with that too long. Even if I truely loved him and knew that I always would, like Vanity/Denise says she would/did. There was a huge blowup and she was done being part of the harem. She said it- she just wanted one but he wanted many.

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Was this celibacy lifestyle he sought in the last few years, strictly a JW thing? I don't know if I buy it but then wouldn't have the women he was dating (if he was), outted him?

purplegirl00 said:

beachy said:

here's what some innocent bystanders had to say of the situation they observed:

.

“He juggled the affairs on a day-to-day basis,” said Alan Leeds, who would soon be called in to stop the 1999 tour from falling apart. “Some nights Vanity would disappear with Prince, then some nights Jill would appear on the Prince bus, leaving Vanity in the hotel.”

According to Barney Hoskyns, who covered the tour for the New Musical Express: “Nobody seems to remark how peculiar it is that Vanity, supposedly enjoying a pride of place between the little chap’s sheets, actually kips on her own in a separate bus & scarcely exchanges a word with him throughout the days I’m on the tour.”

in case anyone is not familiar with brit slang, kips means to stay or board overnight. (from Prince: Chaos, Disorder, and Revolution by Jason Draper)

.

Personally. I would have left like Vanity did, and probably not have been as sweet about it.

The Oral history article I posted yesterday, part of it was by Wendy who said they had a huge blowup.

COLEMAN Vanity was supposed to be the lead, but she left right before the film. It almost tanked the film. I don’t know what happened. Maybe it was a personal issue between her and Prince. They were dating.

MELVOIN My only speculation was that they had a big blowout. That’s what I heard. They had a huge blowout and she bolted.

I wouldn't have put up with that too long. Even if I truely loved him and knew that I always would, like Vanity/Denise says she would/did. There was a huge blowup and she was done being part of the harem. She said it- she just wanted one but he wanted many.

.

Was this celibacy lifestyle he sought in the last few years, strictly a JW thing? I don't know if I buy it but then wouldn't have the women he was dating (if he was), outted him?

From what I understand if you are a JW you can only have sex legitimately in marriage. And you cannot divorce unless the other party is unfaithful. I kinda think Prince had checked out of the marriage maybe as early as 2004 or 5 and constructed a liason with Tamar so that Mani would divorce him, so he could be the good guy in public by saying he did not want the divorce. That's my guess. I guess there is also the rumor that he had an infectious illness that he did not want to pass on and so abtained or was very careful. I have no idea what the truth was.

[Edited 5/23/16 13:03pm]

re Carmen, who is Tony?

I forgot about Susannah Hoffs and Sheena-I would put them in the above it all category and Hoffs in the never seen around category as well.. Hoffs, I think has distanced herself from Prince for decades and to me, anyway, has gone out of her way not to be associated with Prince. I could be wrong, but for the most part, my take is that she'd rather not go down memory lane on that one.

I forgot about Nona: she is in the Bitter camp, but from what I have seen and heard about her recently, Nona is not doing well at all and this has been going on for years. I also hope someone is checking on her-I can imagine that hearing the news about Prince must have hit her hard and she is not someone who is tough. Her coping skills seem to be narrow-and that is not shade. Nona just is not a tough woman. She has had a lot to deal with in her life.

I think Lisa and Wendy are full of it. They act like that that info re why Vanity left came to them second hand, which has to be bullshit. In those days, esp before Purple Rain came out, that whole camp was living in each other's pocket. Everytime someone sneezed back then, everyone else knew, so miss me with that.

I am not really too interested in Carmen,Tamar, Andy, the Twinz, Bria, cause that era to me doesn't really rate.

I'm interested in the OGs and their dynamics-all those proteges, band members from 1980-to 1988-cause you are talking about grown ass women and that whole era was classic. Those women have stories and loyalties and drama.

But yeah, I definitely think there are those women who are not cool with each other and to be honest, there are only a few I think that would really give you the real ish and not sugar coat. The main one would be Brenda. She's not fucking around and she is not one to be crossed.She would tell you the whole truth and nothing but. I would love to hear Susie's take on things, but not sure how honest she would be.

beachy said:

purplegirl00 said:

I wouldn't have put up with that too long. Even if I truely loved him and knew that I always would, like Vanity/Denise says she would/did. There was a huge blowup and she was done being part of the harem. She said it- she just wanted one but he wanted many.

.

Was this celibacy lifestyle he sought in the last few years, strictly a JW thing? I don't know if I buy it but then wouldn't have the women he was dating (if he was), outted him?

From what I understand if you are a JW you can only have sex legitimately in marriage. And you cannot divorce unless the other party is unfaithful. I kinda think Prince had checked out of the marriage maybe as early as 2004 or 5 and constructed a liason with Tamar so that Mani would divorce him, so he could be the good guy in public by saying he did not want the divorce. That's my guess. I guess there is also the rumor that he had an infectious illness that he did not want to pass on and so abtained or was very careful. I have no idea what the truth was.

[Edited 5/23/16 13:03pm]

Yeah, it's hard to know. It is an extreme and huge departure from his former lifestyle so maybe that' why it's harder for me to believe it. Maybe Denise's witnessing/preaching affected that? It is interesting he cleaned up and didn't perform some of his songs with vulgar/sexually explicit lyrics in the last few years.

Prince’s in-house rapper, Tony M. (that's his stage name I couldn't find a real name).

He left at the same time as CE.

ok these things are always complicated because there is the sexual economy and the professional economy and they intersect and overlap. So Prince basically shelved alot of real talent to focus on CE's album which did not do well. At the same time he starts his war with WB. But Prince hates associating with failure, so he lost interest and moved on mentally. CE for her part started giving payback to Prince for all the screwing around he had done plus he was a tyrant telling her what to wear and eat and she had to wait on him in the studio. So she starts messing and he called her a ho. they had a huge fight. She left without her things. I don't really blame her. I love Prince but he must have been a trip and a half.

[Edited 5/23/16 13:23pm]

purplegirl00 said:

beachy said:

From what I understand if you are a JW you can only have sex legitimately in marriage. And you cannot divorce unless the other party is unfaithful. I kinda think Prince had checked out of the marriage maybe as early as 2004 or 5 and constructed a liason with Tamar so that Mani would divorce him, so he could be the good guy in public by saying he did not want the divorce. That's my guess. I guess there is also the rumor that he had an infectious illness that he did not want to pass on and so abtained or was very careful. I have no idea what the truth was.

[Edited 5/23/16 13:03pm]

Yeah, it's hard to know. It is an extreme and huge departure from his former lifestyle so maybe that' why it's harder for me to believe it. Maybe Denise's witnessing/preaching affected that? It is interesting he cleaned up and didn't perform some of his songs with vulgar/sexually explicit lyrics in the last few years.

I agree definitely a departure but he had also grown up as a Seventh Day Adventist so in my mind I see it something like a return rather than a huge shift. Denise was also religious, Nikki Sixx said she was always talking about God.

beachy said:

here's what some innocent bystanders had to say of the situation they observed:

.

“He juggled the affairs on a day-to-day basis,” said Alan Leeds, who would soon be called in to stop the 1999 tour from falling apart. “Some nights Vanity would disappear with Prince, then some nights Jill would appear on the Prince bus, leaving Vanity in the hotel.”

According to Barney Hoskyns, who covered the tour for the New Musical Express: “Nobody seems to remark how peculiar it is that Vanity, supposedly enjoying a pride of place between the little chap’s sheets, actually kips on her own in a separate bus & scarcely exchanges a word with him throughout the days I’m on the tour.”

in case anyone is not familiar with brit slang, kips means to stay or board overnight. (from Prince: Chaos, Disorder, and Revolution by Jason Draper)

.

Personally. I would have left like Vanity did, and probably not have been as sweet about it.

The Oral history article I posted yesterday, part of it was by Wendy who said they had a huge blowup.

COLEMAN Vanity was supposed to be the lead, but she left right before the film. It almost tanked the film. I don’t know what happened. Maybe it was a personal issue between her and Prince. They were dating.

MELVOIN My only speculation was that they had a big blowout. That’s what I heard. They had a huge blowout and she bolted.

.

From everything I have read I believe Prince kept women at arm's length and off balance by playing them off against each other. He also reportedly gave rings to Susan Moonsie in 1981 and to Susannah Melvoin in 1995. He spoke about marriage or being married to or about Vanity, Nona, and probably several others. How much of it was sincere and how much a game he played I do not know. All I know for sure is his own statement that he used to love Vanity deeply. I also believe that all the stuff he said about being soulmates with Mayte was mostly to hurt Vanity and show her she had been replaced. I am sure he cared about Mayte I am not saying he didn't but its the way he said that bit in the Spin magazine about how everyone thought he would marry Vanity. I have no proof that is just the way I think he was playing it.

[Edited 5/23/16 12:57pm]

I believe Prince grew emotionally distant with Mani and that caused the end of that marriage. So that does tie in a bit with keeping women at arms length.

That interview where he addresses the whole, "everyone thought I would marry Vanity" thing first seemed bizarre to me, but now makes more sense that it was his revenge. Vanity did say in that magazine where it featured her and the husband, "I knew that this man was made for me the first day." I bet Prince took that as a HUGE slap in the face. So with Mayte, he returns the fire and claims she's his soulmate. Oh LAWD the games these two played!

I know we moved on from this a few pages ago, but I saw part of Denise's will with her signature. It does pose a strikingly resemblance to diary handwritting. I'm leaning towards it being legit. I was not able to capture it as a picture, so here is the link:

http://bossip.com/1284091/bossip-exclusive-80s-singer-vanity-leaves-most-of-her-estate-to-church/