Jellybean does some Black Cat(Janet) and when Morris gets on drums that is Tricky(Ice Cream Castle B side)

OldFriends4Sale said:

jdcxc said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Jellybean does some Black Cat(Janet) and when Morris gets on drums that is Tricky(Ice Cream Castle B side)

Cool clip. Rare to see Morris on the drums...P always admired his skills. Anyone know how much drums he plays on the Time albums?

I believe he played drums on a bit more than 1/2 the songs
He also played drums on Tricky, Cloreen Bacon Skin(with is the same beat as Irresistable Bitch) and drums on Let's Work(extended)

jdcxc said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Jellybean does some Black Cat(Janet) and when Morris gets on drums that is Tricky(Ice Cream Castle B side)

Cool clip. Rare to see Morris on the drums...P always admired his skills. Anyone know how much drums he plays on the Time albums?

morris still nice on the skins

Amazing to me how many trax P got off that same exact drum part. "Tricky", "Irresistable Bitch", "Cloreen Baconskin" (even if that was an improvised jam). Makes me wonder if there are any others we ain't even heard yet.

jdcxc said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Jellybean does some Black Cat(Janet) and when Morris gets on drums that is Tricky(Ice Cream Castle B side)

Cool clip. Rare to see Morris on the drums...P always admired his skills. Anyone know how much drums he plays on the Time albums?

Everything we know is on Princevault. Jesse added some cool revelation to Nilsen's research on his FB page so while some data may still be wrong/missing, I guess we know most of who did what at this point.

databank said:

jdcxc said:

OldFriends4Sale said: Cool clip. Rare to see Morris on the drums...P always admired his skills. Anyone know how much drums he plays on the Time albums?

Everything we know is on Princevault. Jesse added some cool revelation to Nilsen's research on his FB page so while some data may still be wrong/missing, I guess we know most of who did what at this point.

I doubt we will ever truly know everything, because those guys are hired ghost-writers to this day. Of course, if there was something Prince really wanted kept quiet, they ain't saying. Same for a lot of people Prince hires.

funksterr said:

databank said:

Everything we know is on Princevault. Jesse added some cool revelation to Nilsen's research on his FB page so while some data may still be wrong/missing, I guess we know most of who did what at this point.

I doubt we will ever truly know everything, because those guys are hired ghost-writers to this day. Of course, if there was something Prince really wanted kept quiet, they ain't saying. Same for a lot of people Prince hires.

It seems there were no confidentiality agreement at that time between Prince and his former associates, this only began to happen in the late 80's or early 90's at the earliest, so they are free to tell whatever they wish about those sessions.

Let's also not rewrite history: people sometimes tend to assume the side projects associates were "ghostwriters" as in "Prince took their credit" but in fact officially at the time Prince concealed his own contributions and while detailed credits weren't given on the albums' booklet, officially the whole bands officially credited for the side projects were composing and playing on each track: if anyone was a ghostwriter it was Prince.

It's only in the 90's that it became clear that Prince was doing almost everything, first when he revealed his complete songwriting for others on the Nude Tour booklet (minus Romance 1600 because he couldn't) and, when it came to composing Romance and to playing and recording, thanks to Per Nilsen and Uptown's research, a research Prince never encouraged nor approved.

If it was up to Prince, we'd still wouldn't have a clue as to whether members of The Time, the 6's, Sheila E.'s band, The Family and Madhouse were actually playing everything on their records or not.

databank said:

funksterr said:

I doubt we will ever truly know everything, because those guys are hired ghost-writers to this day. Of course, if there was something Prince really wanted kept quiet, they ain't saying. Same for a lot of people Prince hires.

It seems there were no confidentiality agreement at that time between Prince and his former associates, this only began to happen in the late 80's or early 90's at the earliest, so they are free to tell whatever they wish about those sessions.

Let's also not rewrite history: people sometimes tend to assume the side projects associates were "ghostwriters" as in "Prince took their credit" but in fact officially at the time Prince concealed his own contributions and while detailed credits weren't given on the albums' booklet, officially the whole bands officially credited for the side projects were composing and playing on each track: if anyone was a ghostwriter it was Prince.

It's only in the 90's that it became clear that Prince was doing almost everything, first when he revealed his complete songwriting for others on the Nude Tour booklet (minus Romance 1600 because he couldn't) and, when it came to composing Romance and to playing and recording, thanks to Per Nilsen and Uptown's research, a research Prince never encouraged nor approved.

If it was up to Prince, we'd still wouldn't have a clue as to whether members of The Time, the 6's, Sheila E.'s band, The Family and Madhouse were actually playing everything on their records or not.

Why are you making everything so complicated? The fact is a lot of musicians that worked in the studio with Prince, also work in the industry for other people sometimes as ghost-writers. Therefore it's reasonable to assume, if there was something to tell, they would have zero incintive to do so, because keeping things on the hush, is part of how they get paid.

As for the Nude tour booklet, are you sure that wasn't just a list of songs he owns, instead of songs written completely on his own with no help from anyone else? I'm not familiar with the booklet. It just sounds unlikely to me that the booklet says Prince had no co=writers.

As for Uptown and Per Nilsen... I respect them all and applaud what they did in every respect. I don't think their information is 100% accurate though. Their number one source seems to be Susan Rogers, who is an unabashed Prince fangirl, to say the least. A lot of other things they said has since been proven false. Who knows what else they didn't get right. You have to remember, well-intentioned people can have different perspectives and different agendas, at different points in time, so.......

[Edited 12/19/15 20:10pm]

funksterr said:

databank said:

It seems there were no confidentiality agreement at that time between Prince and his former associates, this only began to happen in the late 80's or early 90's at the earliest, so they are free to tell whatever they wish about those sessions.

Let's also not rewrite history: people sometimes tend to assume the side projects associates were "ghostwriters" as in "Prince took their credit" but in fact officially at the time Prince concealed his own contributions and while detailed credits weren't given on the albums' booklet, officially the whole bands officially credited for the side projects were composing and playing on each track: if anyone was a ghostwriter it was Prince.

It's only in the 90's that it became clear that Prince was doing almost everything, first when he revealed his complete songwriting for others on the Nude Tour booklet (minus Romance 1600 because he couldn't) and, when it came to composing Romance and to playing and recording, thanks to Per Nilsen and Uptown's research, a research Prince never encouraged nor approved.

If it was up to Prince, we'd still wouldn't have a clue as to whether members of The Time, the 6's, Sheila E.'s band, The Family and Madhouse were actually playing everything on their records or not.

Why are you making everything so complicated? I'm not making anything complicated goddammit, are you a 4 year old KG pupil that you have to claim I make things complicated whern I'm just writing plain English? The fact is a lot of musicians that worked in the studio with Prince, also work in the industry for other people sometimes as ghost-writers. Which artists and on what records? What is your source? I've never heard such a thing before. Therefore it's reasonable to assume, if there was something to tell, they would have zero incintive to do so, because keeping things on the hush, is part of how they get paid. Be specific, IDK who or which records you are talking of.

As for the Nude tour booklet, are you sure that wasn't just a list of songs he owns, instead of songs written completely on his own with no help from anyone else? I'm not familiar with the booklet. It just sounds unlikely to me that the booklet says Prince had no co=writers.

IIRC it only listed each and every songs composed or co-composed by Prince and given to others (incl. side projects) as per ASCAP copyrighting, with no details regarding co-writing credits. It didn't say that there were no co-writers, it just didn't make any mention of them. I haven't seen it inb a long time though so I may be wrong about co-credits.

As for Uptown and Per Nilsen... I respect them all and applaud what they did in every respect. I don't think their information is 100% accurate though. Their number one source seems to be Susan Rogers, who is an unabashed Prince fangirl, to say the least. A lot of other things they said has since been proven false. Who knows what else they didn't get right. You have to remember, well-intentioned people can have different perspectives and different agendas, at different points in time, so.......

I don't see why you'd say Susan is a "fangirl", she's been critical of prince and has revealed pretty embarrassing information about him, too. However yes several things Nilsen and co had undug have proven incorrect over time, but they have interviewed dozens of people not just Susan Rogers and the bulk of the data we have thanks to them remains unchallenged so no, I'm not going to condemn such a massive work over a few unavoidable errors. Madhouseman's upcoming books about the 80's recordings are based on further interviews and according to him should correct a large amount of whatever errors were contained by past research. Let us wait and see what the books reveal. But when it comes to Revolution/6's/Time/Family/Madhouse/Sheila era collaborators again there was no confidentiality agreement and all have been interviewed lenghty and well beyond Nilsen and Uptown regarding those days. No one ever mentioned any contractual ghostwriting. We know a few cases when Prince shamefully deprived certain collaborators of their royalties when copyrighting a song, a few more may be revealed, but that wasn't "ghostwriting", just Prince being an ass.

databank said:

I don't see why you'd say Susan is a "fangirl", she's been critical of prince and has revealed pretty embarrassing information about him, too. However yes several things Nilsen and co had undug have proven incorrect over time, but they have interviewed dozens of people not just Susan Rogers and the bulk of the data we have thanks to them remains unchallenged so no, I'm not going to condemn such a massive work over a few unavoidable errors. Madhouseman's upcoming books about the 80's recordings are based on further interviews and according to him should correct a large amount of whatever errors were contained by past research. Let us wait and see what the books reveal. But when it comes to Revolution/6's/Time/Family/Madhouse/Sheila era collaborators again there was no confidentiality agreement and all have been interviewed lenghty and well beyond Nilsen and Uptown regarding those days. No one ever mentioned any contractual ghostwriting. We know a few cases when Prince shamefully deprived certain collaborators of their royalties when copyrighting a song, a few more may be revealed, but that wasn't "ghostwriting", just Prince being an ass.

The music business is not as formal as you seem to think it is. It's just not. You don't need to slap a contract on someone to keep them quiet. People can just have an understanding.

Nothing some celebrity or anyone else someone says in an interview is umm, without an agenda. There is no motivation for someone to tell you things they don't want you to know in an interview, and often time people just straight up lie because they are promoting something. A bandmember may intentionaly misdirect an interviewer just to show Prince how loyal they are to him, in hopes for an oppurtunity to get more work. It's a relationships business. Burning bridges is burning money.

And none of your, ahem, 'data', is Prince-approved, so while you like to claim it is Prince's official point of view, or fact, really it's basicaly gossip, assumption and innuendo. And often times it goes way to far in dismissing what other people did too.

[Edited 12/20/15 7:16am]

funksterr said:

databank said:

The music business is not as formal as you seem to think it is. It's just not. You don't need to slap a contract on someone to keep them quiet. People can just have an understanding.

Nothing some celebrity or anyone else someone says in an interview is umm, without an agenda. There is no motivation for someone to tell you things they don't want you to know in an interview, and often time people just straight up lie because they are promoting something. A bandmember may intentionaly misdirect an interviewer just to show Prince how loyal they are to him, in hopes for an oppurtunity to get more work. It's a relationships business. Burning bridges is burning money.

And none of your, ahem, 'data', is Prince-approved, so while you like to claim it is Prince's official point of view, or fact, really it's basicaly gossip, assumption and innuendo. And often times it goes way to far in dismissing what other people did too.

[Edited 12/20/15 7:16am]

Databanks assumptions are at least based on some verifiable facts. Yours are pure speculation.

funksterr said:

databank said:

The music business is not as formal as you seem to think it is. It's just not. You don't need to slap a contract on someone to keep them quiet. People can just have an understanding.

Nothing some celebrity or anyone else someone says in an interview is umm, without an agenda. There is no motivation for someone to tell you things they don't want you to know in an interview, and often time people just straight up lie because they are promoting something. A bandmember may intentionaly misdirect an interviewer just to show Prince how loyal they are to him, in hopes for an oppurtunity to get more work. It's a relationships business. Burning bridges is burning money.

And none of your, ahem, 'data', is Prince-approved, so while you like to claim it is Prince's official point of view, or fact, really it's basicaly gossip, assumption and innuendo. And often times it goes way to far in dismissing what other people did too.

[Edited 12/20/15 7:16am]

Most 80's associate who have expressed themselves publicly about Prince and the recording sessions have expressed at the very least some critics, when not plain bashing, towards P's past actions, or revealed things Prince would obviously not have wanted them to reveal (as Susan did, and I don't see how Susan, of all people could expect any sort of job from Prince when she has retired from engineering some 25 years ago). They also often said they love/like/respect him, but most were pretty open when it came to criticizing certain things he'd done. I don't see how any of these people would or could "follow Prince's agenda" in the hope to get a gig from Prince given all that's been said by so many of them over the years, they know he'll call u or he won't regardless or what u say: despite public critics he called Eric, W&L, Sheila and even Morris and The Time to join in certain occasional shows or sessions when he wanted them. They probably won't reveal dirty facts about P's private life because that would be disgusting, but when it comes to the music and career, they usually aren't afraid to speak. After all Morris said last year Prince was "an asshole" and nevertheless last week P felt inclined to give MD&TT some publicity on his Twitter account.

Former associates are waaaay more careful after the 90's, maybe indeed because some expect to be hired again and most likely because of confidentiality agreements (as several have publicly stated to explain why they couldn't speak about certain topics). Most of these people were never "friends" with Prince, they were employees before anything else, and therefore are also more inclined to keep their talks on a professional level, while most of the 80's crew considered themselves friends, peers and for some were even girlfrends with Prince.

But anyway as Paul just noted above my policy is that we are talking about a topic that's been much researched and even though there's some room for speculation and certain research will be proven wrong by further research, we're talking historical data about a famous living person. My policy when it comes to all this is that unless negated by someone who was there or further research, present research and past testimonies by those who were there is all we've got and our "hunches", intuitions and gut feelings are just rubbish. I sometimes come-up with certain theories and always am very clear regarding the fact that they are mere theories based on whatever facts are available.

Lots of people here, and I suspect u're among them, are more inclined to believe in whatever they chose to believe because their own logic or gut feeling (or even agenda because insane as it is certain people here have an agenda regarding how they wish Prince to be viewed by others) tells them it has to be the truth. A bit like someone I know from my job who always assumes people are lying because... he's himself a mythomaniac: your conception of the world dictates that everyone and everything has to bow to it. This is how we end-up with all those factless conspiracy theories presented as fact on the internet.

I'm sorry if this post is again too "complicated" for you, but I'm willing to take responsibility on basing any reasoning I have on facts instead of my own gut-feeling. And if further research proves some past research to be wrong then all the better for it. Until then I'll stick to what we know or can reasonably assume from what we know by means of logic.

paulludvig said:

funksterr said:

The music business is not as formal as you seem to think it is. It's just not. You don't need to slap a contract on someone to keep them quiet. People can just have an understanding.

Nothing some celebrity or anyone else someone says in an interview is umm, without an agenda. There is no motivation for someone to tell you things they don't want you to know in an interview, and often time people just straight up lie because they are promoting something. A bandmember may intentionaly misdirect an interviewer just to show Prince how loyal they are to him, in hopes for an oppurtunity to get more work. It's a relationships business. Burning bridges is burning money.

And none of your, ahem, 'data', is Prince-approved, so while you like to claim it is Prince's official point of view, or fact, really it's basicaly gossip, assumption and innuendo. And often times it goes way to far in dismissing what other people did too.

[Edited 12/20/15 7:16am]

Databanks assumptions are at least based on some verifiable facts. Yours are pure speculation.

Thx

Also Morris on the Drums on "New Power Generation"

I read an interview on the Ebony magazine site where Prince says he never heard Condensate. But I remember an interview Jimmy Jam did at the time the album came out.

Part 1 - Part 2

.

Being the first album you guys have done from start to finish with no involvement from Prince, would it be fair to call Condensate your debut album?
I think it’s totally fair to say. I think we all felt the same way about it. Although I have to say that we did not shun Prince’s involvement in any way. We actually invited him on numerous occasions to be part of the project. I totally agree that it is the first true album of the seven original guys. But we always wanted—and honestly expected—that Prince at some point would say, “I’m going to give you this song,” or that he would be involved. The project was not, “Let’s make a record without Prince.” That was absolutely not the thought the process, I just want to be clear about that. But I agree that the result was the first true record without him.
But I also have to say the record has his influence. As The Time or The Original 7ven, we can’t make a record without Prince’s influence. He was so instrumental in doing the first album in particular, but really in varying degrees all the Time albums. So I think that his influence is absolutely there on Condensate. In a way, we feel like we’re his kids. We got a message from him when the record first came out. He said, “I love the record, I love the name.” It was short but supportive, so that was cool.

Why do you think he didn’t allow you guys to call it The Time?
Well, I think he feels that he’s a member of the group because he was the architect of those earlier records. To draw the distinction, we were not put together by Prince. We were already a band and had been for quite a while. We actually used to compete with Prince’s band, Grand Central, in the early Minneapolis days when we were called Flyte Time. That was sort of the origin of everything. But when Prince got us the record deal, it was the biggest break that we ever had because it set forth all the events that have happened since then, including myself and Terry’s career.
I think that because Prince was the architect of the first record in particular, which continued through the second and the third album, though he started loosening the reins a little bit, letting us be a little more involved in the writing and the concepts, I think he feels that he birthed The Time, basically. He feels he gave it life, so he feels he has the right to kill it. I think you can kill the name, but you’re not going to kill the guys in the band. You can certainly throw road blocks in our way and, by the way, the name change is a huge roadblock. But at the end of the day, we just said, “Let’s make our record.” Hopefully people find it and enjoy it.

How did you personally feel about his attitude regarding the band name?
I think he’s certainly within his rights to do that. It was interesting because when “Morris Day and The Time” have toured, and it’s only three original members of the group, it’s okay to call that The Time. But when all seven of the original members get back together, it’s not okay to call it The Time. The only thing I can figure out is that because it is new music that Prince was not involved with, it can’t be The Time. But it can be The Time as long as it’s old music that he was involved with. If you think about it, it’s the only logical explanation.
It’s not a business thing, because we never had a business conversation about doing it. It was simply, “I own the name, you can’t use it.”Cut and dried. The other little quirk is that we can use it to tour. But we can’t use it to record. So to me, that’s another clue that anything new that we do, Prince isn’t comfortable with us using The Time name because he doesn’t feel he’s a part of it. I think because of the fact that he enjoyed the album, maybe through fan pressure and maybe through common sense, he will decide that we are not ruining the legacy of the band in any way. Maybe one day he’ll be comfortable with saying that we are The Time. But that’s up to him.

From another angle. Morris sure knows how to get the right sound of those drums.

MickyDolenz said:

I read an interview on the Ebony magazine site where Prince says he never heard Condensate. But I remember an interview Jimmy Jam did at the time the album came out.

Part 1 - Part 2

.

Being the first album you guys have done from start to finish with no involvement from Prince, would it be fair to call Condensate your debut album?
I think it’s totally fair to say. I think we all felt the same way about it. Although I have to say that we did not shun Prince’s involvement in any way. We actually invited him on numerous occasions to be part of the project. I totally agree that it is the first true album of the seven original guys. But we always wanted—and honestly expected—that Prince at some point would say, “I’m going to give you this song,” or that he would be involved. The project was not, “Let’s make a record without Prince.” That was absolutely not the thought the process, I just want to be clear about that. But I agree that the result was the first true record without him.
But I also have to say the record has his influence. As The Time or The Original 7ven, we can’t make a record without Prince’s influence. He was so instrumental in doing the first album in particular, but really in varying degrees all the Time albums. So I think that his influence is absolutely there on Condensate. In a way, we feel like we’re his kids. We got a message from him when the record first came out. He said, “I love the record, I love the name.” It was short but supportive, so that was cool.

Why do you think he didn’t allow you guys to call it The Time?
Well, I think he feels that he’s a member of the group because he was the architect of those earlier records. To draw the distinction, we were not put together by Prince. We were already a band and had been for quite a while. We actually used to compete with Prince’s band, Grand Central, in the early Minneapolis days when we were called Flyte Time. That was sort of the origin of everything. But when Prince got us the record deal, it was the biggest break that we ever had because it set forth all the events that have happened since then, including myself and Terry’s career.
I think that because Prince was the architect of the first record in particular, which continued through the second and the third album, though he started loosening the reins a little bit, letting us be a little more involved in the writing and the concepts, I think he feels that he birthed The Time, basically. He feels he gave it life, so he feels he has the right to kill it. I think you can kill the name, but you’re not going to kill the guys in the band. You can certainly throw road blocks in our way and, by the way, the name change is a huge roadblock. But at the end of the day, we just said, “Let’s make our record.” Hopefully people find it and enjoy it.

How did you personally feel about his attitude regarding the band name?
I think he’s certainly within his rights to do that. It was interesting because when “Morris Day and The Time” have toured, and it’s only three original members of the group, it’s okay to call that The Time. But when all seven of the original members get back together, it’s not okay to call it The Time. The only thing I can figure out is that because it is new music that Prince was not involved with, it can’t be The Time. But it can be The Time as long as it’s old music that he was involved with. If you think about it, it’s the only logical explanation.
It’s not a business thing, because we never had a business conversation about doing it. It was simply, “I own the name, you can’t use it.”Cut and dried. The other little quirk is that we can use it to tour. But we can’t use it to record. So to me, that’s another clue that anything new that we do, Prince isn’t comfortable with us using The Time name because he doesn’t feel he’s a part of it. I think because of the fact that he enjoyed the album, maybe through fan pressure and maybe through common sense, he will decide that we are not ruining the legacy of the band in any way. Maybe one day he’ll be comfortable with saying that we are The Time. But that’s up to him.

AKA.......as long as Jam, Lewis and Jesse are involved!!!!! #MajorShadeByPrince

BlackSweat86 said:

Amazing to me how many trax P got off that same exact drum part. "Tricky", "Irresistable Bitch", "Cloreen Baconskin" (even if that was an improvised jam). Makes me wonder if there are any others we ain't even heard yet.

Wild And Loose and My Drawers