terrig said:

They were paid for what they provided, RIGHT? If Prince owns it, he OWNS it. They are EMPLOYEES. This proves that everyone did work at their job.

The employee analogy is stupid. It's so stupid I didn't even bother to comment on it when it was brought up earlier in the thread. When it comes to issues of intellectual property, copyright, trademark, contracts and common industry business practices, it's not nearly as simple as clocking in at the local KFC or whathaveyou.The fact that Prince hasn't spun most of the assoicated artists rights off back to the groups tells me he likely doesn't have the financial security he would need to do so. There really isn't any other reason I can imagine not to do it and certainly members of The Time participated heavily in creating the music.

funksterr said:

terrig said:

They were paid for what they provided, RIGHT? If Prince owns it, he OWNS it. They are EMPLOYEES. This proves that everyone did work at their job.

The employee analogy is stupid. It's so stupid I didn't even bother to comment on it when it was brought up earlier in the thread. When it comes to issues of intellectual property, copyright, trademark, contracts and common industry business practices, it's not nearly as simple as clocking in at the local KFC or whathaveyou.The fact that Prince hasn't spun most of the assoicated artists rights off back to the groups tells me he likely doesn't have the financial security he would need to do so. There really isn't any other reason I can imagine not to do it and certainly members of The Time participated heavily in creating the music.

Its simplified YES, but if I'm not ignorant of how the industry works, and if they were credited with songwriting and got publishing then they make on that. ...but if Prince owns the name he owns the name. What's stupid is thinking he should GIVE IT AWAY. JUST BECAUSE. Your idea that Prince isn't financially secure enough to 'spin' the rights back to them? Spin=SELL? or GIVE? Spin the rights back to the groups lololol Why don't you qualify what that means?

terrig said:

funksterr said:

The employee analogy is stupid. It's so stupid I didn't even bother to comment on it when it was brought up earlier in the thread. When it comes to issues of intellectual property, copyright, trademark, contracts and common industry business practices, it's not nearly as simple as clocking in at the local KFC or whathaveyou.The fact that Prince hasn't spun most of the assoicated artists rights off back to the groups tells me he likely doesn't have the financial security he would need to do so. There really isn't any other reason I can imagine not to do it and certainly members of The Time participated heavily in creating the music.

Its simplified YES, but if I'm not ignorant of how the industry works, and if they were credited with songwriting and got publishing then they make on that. ...but if Prince owns the name he owns the name. What's stupid is thinking he should GIVE IT AWAY. JUST BECAUSE. Your idea that Prince isn't financially secure enough to 'spin' the rights back to them? Spin=SELL? or GIVE? Spin the rights back to the groups lololol Why don't you qualify what that means?

It seems you know exactly what I meant.

It makes no sense that Prince controls The Time at this point, other than maybe he's padding out his catalog with that material. At most he should be a partner with the band, and even then that's probably unnecessary unless he needs the money.

funksterr said:

When it comes to issues of intellectual property, copyright, trademark, contracts and common industry business practices, it's not nearly as simple as clocking in at the local KFC or whathave you.

Here's a Michael Jackson related article from July 2015 that's about session musicians:

.

Sony Music Sued By Guild Over Use of Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston Songs

by Eriq Gardner - July 08, 2015

.

The American Federation of Musicians of the United States and Canada is back with another lawsuit. This time, the guild is targeting Sony Music over its use of music for films, television specials and new recordings. The guild aims to enforce agreements covering musicians who contributed instrumentals to songs from Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, Earth Wind & Fire, and Tony Bennett.

.

With regards to the King of Pop, AFM flags Sony for calling its musicians for a 2009 recording session to complete a duet by Jackson and Paul Anka for the film, This Is It and its soundtrack. The session is said to be a violation of a labor agreement that provides that recording sessions are only to be called for a phonographic record, and if it was to be for a movie, AFM says it would have required an arrangement where the musicians got residual compensation.

.

Additionally, Sony is cited for authorizing the use of Jackson's "Bad" on a track by the hip hop artist Pitbull without telling AFM so that the musicians who contributed to Jackson's original recording could get paid. Similarly, Sony's decision to license such Jackson songs as "Billie Jean," "Man in the Mirror," and "The Way You Make Me Feel" for This Is It is said to be a "sampling new use" triggering payment obligations on behalf of those who worked on the original songs.

.

The lawsuit filed Tuesday in New York details other ways that Sony has allegedly breached contract.

.

When Sony released a CD/DVD of a work titled Whitney Houston Live: Her Greatest Performances, that allegedly required notice and eventual residuals to the musicians who accompanied the singer.

.

Sony's license of Earth, Wind & Fire's "Boogie Wonderland" for the 2012 film The Intouchables is flagged too. The song's new use in a film gives rise to obligations to pay musicians in "an amount equal to all payments that would be required under the terms of the AFM Basic Theatrical Motion Picture Agreement that were then in effect," according to the complaint.

.

And AFM says that when Sony licensed 17 sound recordings featuring duets by Tony Bennett and other vocal artists for a television program broadcast by PBS, its musicians were due payment there as well under the applicable collectively bargained agreement.

.

AFM's latest action follows lawsuits in recent months against film studios for recycling old film soundtracks and recording music outside o...th America. The guild has new leadership and has clearly decided to become more aggressive in court. Here's the complaint.

MickyDolenz said:

funksterr said:

When it comes to issues of intellectual property, copyright, trademark, contracts and common industry business practices, it's not nearly as simple as clocking in at the local KFC or whathave you.

Here's a Michael Jackson related article from July 2015 that's about session musicians:

.

Sony Music Sued By Guild Over Use of Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston Songs

by Eriq Gardner - July 08, 2015

.

The American Federation of Musicians of the United States and Canada is back with another lawsuit. This time, the guild is targeting Sony Music over its use of music for films, television specials and new recordings. The guild aims to enforce agreements covering musicians who contributed instrumentals to songs from Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, Earth Wind & Fire, and Tony Bennett.

.

With regards to the King of Pop, AFM flags Sony for calling its musicians for a 2009 recording session to complete a duet by Jackson and Paul Anka for the film, This Is It and its soundtrack. The session is said to be a violation of a labor agreement that provides that recording sessions are only to be called for a phonographic record, and if it was to be for a movie, AFM says it would have required an arrangement where the musicians got residual compensation.

.

Additionally, Sony is cited for authorizing the use of Jackson's "Bad" on a track by the hip hop artist Pitbull without telling AFM so that the musicians who contributed to Jackson's original recording could get paid. Similarly, Sony's decision to license such Jackson songs as "Billie Jean," "Man in the Mirror," and "The Way You Make Me Feel" for This Is It is said to be a "sampling new use" triggering payment obligations on behalf of those who worked on the original songs.

.

The lawsuit filed Tuesday in New York details other ways that Sony has allegedly breached contract.

.

When Sony released a CD/DVD of a work titled Whitney Houston Live: Her Greatest Performances, that allegedly required notice and eventual residuals to the musicians who accompanied the singer.

.

Sony's license of Earth, Wind & Fire's "Boogie Wonderland" for the 2012 film The Intouchables is flagged too. The song's new use in a film gives rise to obligations to pay musicians in "an amount equal to all payments that would be required under the terms of the AFM Basic Theatrical Motion Picture Agreement that were then in effect," according to the complaint.

.

And AFM says that when Sony licensed 17 sound recordings featuring duets by Tony Bennett and other vocal artists for a television program broadcast by PBS, its musicians were due payment there as well under the applicable collectively bargained agreement.

.

AFM's latest action follows lawsuits in recent months against film studios for recycling old film soundtracks and recording music outside o...th America. The guild has new leadership and has clearly decided to become more aggressive in court. Here's the complaint.

This all makes sense regarding the use of music in movies and other platforms after the initial recording occurs and makes sense that it triggers royalities...I'm not sure how this relates to Prince & The Time though....I do undertsand how musicians work and get paid....

This all makes the case that The Time and other entities Prince owns are worth alot more remaining within his catalogue than they are as standing entities outside his ownership....they add value to his overall but are less valuable on the open market as separate entities...

Prince could license the name back to them and recieve payments from that - but again, what it costs to track and maintain that probably makes it not worth doing.

funksterr said:

terrig said:

Its simplified YES, but if I'm not ignorant of how the industry works, and if they were credited with songwriting and got publishing then they make on that. ...but if Prince owns the name he owns the name. What's stupid is thinking he should GIVE IT AWAY. JUST BECAUSE. Your idea that Prince isn't financially secure enough to 'spin' the rights back to them? Spin=SELL? or GIVE? Spin the rights back to the groups lololol Why don't you qualify what that means?

It seems you know exactly what I meant.

It makes no sense that Prince controls The Time at this point, other than maybe he's padding out his catalog with that material. At most he should be a partner with the band, and even then that's probably unnecessary unless he needs the money.

What doesnt make sense? Prince owns the Time. PLain and simple. THey became the Time because of him. It is not like he just discovered them and put them on his tour, He made all the music and the concept - then preformed it on all their classic albums. He made them famous and they built solo careers on that fame, He owes them nothing else. Prince IS the Time and always has been. I wouldnt give that up for anyone if I was Prince.

FUNKYNESS said:

funksterr said:

It seems you know exactly what I meant.

It makes no sense that Prince controls The Time at this point, other than maybe he's padding out his catalog with that material. At most he should be a partner with the band, and even then that's probably unnecessary unless he needs the money.

What doesnt make sense? Prince owns the Time. PLain and simple. THey became the Time because of him. It is not like he just discovered them and put them on his tour, He made all the music and the concept - then preformed it on all their classic albums. He made them famous and they built solo careers on that fame, He owes them nothing else. Prince IS the Time and always has been. I wouldnt give that up for anyone if I was Prince.

Almost everything you said isn't true, but especially the statement I highlighted. Did you even read the Jesse Johnson comments I reposted earlier in the thread? Apparantley not. Go read that, then remember that Lisa Coleman, Dez and Andre Cymone also contributed to The Time in multiple and various ways. Then come back and tell me that Prince IS The Time.

terrig said:

funksterr said:

For those that think Prince did everything and IS The Time and therfore should own everything, I forgot that Jesse cleared a lot of things up last year on Facebook:

They were paid for what they provided, RIGHT? If Prince owns it, he OWNS it. They are EMPLOYEES. This proves that everyone did work at their job.

a lot of them, especially the Time, did not get paid for the a lot of the live work they did.
Prince has been pulling those dick moves on them especially, which is weird, because he grew up

and lived with people in that band.

SoulAlive said:

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

He could, but not being a complete asshole isn't something anyone should really be lauded for. It's not like any of The Family songs ever became "hits" anyway (Nothing Compares 2 U excepting but obviously not their version), and they have their own studio album so it's more like half of their catalogue is written by Prince.

I honestly don't see how these bands using their original names (The Time and The Family) would hurt,or affect,Prince in any way.It's not as if a new "Time" album or a new "Family" CD is gonna sell alot of copies these days,anyway.It's not about money,it's simply about Prince's weird need to control everything.I know he's always been a control freak but after all these years,one would have thought that he would melllow out a bit...you know......become a cooler,nicer person.

I think it has to do with the masters. It is unclear who owns the masters for The Family but it seems they reverted back to P alongside most of PP's catalogue in 1994. On the other hand WB still owns the masters of the 4 The Time albums and P (or the band) can't claim those until 35 years have passed (2016 for the first album).

Whether he plans to ever rerelease that stuff, Prince believes he owns it as much as his own records, which makes sense since he was the lead creative force behind most of what was on those records. Allowing the bands to use their old name may create a legal gap they could use to claim the masters or, in the case of The Time at least, that WB's lawyers could use to say "see, if anyone can claim those records it's them, not you".

This is only speculation but I can't see anything else really save sheer stubborness maybe.

"Morris Day & The Time" is a name the band started to use as early as 1996, and it's likely Prince didn't think of it back then and let it happen, after which he had to let it go for live shows, but in 2004 they had to release their live album as "Morris Day", and you'll notice they never appear live under only "The Time".

This may also explain why Prince filed a copyright form for the names Mazarati and Good Question in the mid-2000's: to try and make sure he can mainain his hold on those bands' masters as well (even though it's totally absurd in that case given that he was NOT the main creative force behind their albums, not even involved at all in the case of GQ for that matter, but fact is that he owns the masters).

It is very unclear whether Prince has long terms plans for his back catalogue and the Paisley Park catalogue or not, and if so what they are. And I don't think anything will happen as long as he's still tied to WB with his current exclusive licencing deal. But if he does I'm pretty sure Prince intends to try and get the rights to the Time, 6's and Sheila albums' masters at the first opportunity.

OldFriends4Sale said:

terrig said:

They were paid for what they provided, RIGHT? If Prince owns it, he OWNS it. They are EMPLOYEES. This proves that everyone did work at their job.

a lot of them, especially the Time, did not get paid for the a lot of the live work they did.
Prince has been pulling those dick moves on them especially, which is weird, because he grew up

and lived with people in that band.

ok if that is indeed the case - I get why people are pissed off, with good reason.

OldFriends4Sale said:

terrig said:

They were paid for what they provided, RIGHT? If Prince owns it, he OWNS it. They are EMPLOYEES. This proves that everyone did work at their job.

a lot of them, especially the Time, did not get paid for the a lot of the live work they did.
Prince has been pulling those dick moves on them especially, which is weird, because he grew up

and lived with people in that band.

That's called an intership in this world....Some are protesting these companies about those....

[Edited 10/27/15 16:54pm]

Linn4days said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

a lot of them, especially the Time, did not get paid for the a lot of the live work they did.
Prince has been pulling those dick moves on them especially, which is weird, because he grew up

and lived with people in that band.

That's called an intership in this world....Some are protesting these companies about those....

[Edited 10/27/15 16:54pm]

If he didn't pay people like he was supposed to - ya, thats a dick move. He still owns what he owns though.....so he still doesn't have to give them anything but back pay ----

terrig said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

a lot of them, especially the Time, did not get paid for the a lot of the live work they did.
Prince has been pulling those dick moves on them especially, which is weird, because he grew up

and lived with people in that band.

ok if that is indeed the case - I get why people are pissed off, with good reason.

BrownMark isn't pissed, I believe he and Prince are still connected, but I believe he didn't get his full pay for the Purple Rain tour till he left the band

This (and Jesse's FB post) was some cool-ass reading during my lunch break today...

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yep I remember this. Morris Day did play drums on a lot of those Time tracks, Jesse following contributed instruments

Morris Day even played drums on Let's Work extended, and since the drumming for Clorean Bacon Skin is almost the same as Irresistable Bitch I wonder is that Morris's drumming too

Synthesizer solos on Get it up and The stick by Matt Fink. Background vocals on Cool and The stick by Lisa Coleman.

funksterr said:

For those that think Prince did everything and IS The Time and therfore should own everything, I forgot that Jesse cleared a lot of things up last year on Facebook:

CoolMF said:

This (and Jesse's FB post) was some cool-ass reading during my lunch break today...

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yep I remember this. Morris Day did play drums on a lot of those Time tracks, Jesse following contributed instruments

Morris Day even played drums on Let's Work extended, and since the drumming for Clorean Bacon Skin is almost the same as Irresistable Bitch I wonder is that Morris's drumming too

Synthesizer solos on Get it up and The stick by Matt Fink. Background vocals on Cool and The stick by Lisa Coleman.

I love the background and foreground and everything about the 80s Proteges:the Time Vanity 6 Sheila E the Family Mazarati Madhouse Jill Jones

I wish all of the O7 Time members would come together and just write a book on things from where they were. Not a bash book of course, I don't think they would do that. But more about the videos, the concerts, stuff that happened while on tour, what it was like for the Time in Minneapolis, etcJust not enough info out there, photos little by little are starting to leak out, not a lot of information on the show set lists etc

Prince & the Time (Controversy) era 1981-1982 http://prince.org/msg/7/419862

Fury said:

MickyDolenz said:

Prince has a job because of Warner Brothers but yet he wrote slave on his face.

Cute. But Prince also went and carved a legacy without them. Hence , if you're gonna take on the boss, be prepared to leave. He came back on his own terms

You mean workedhard at dstroying his legacy AFTER them. Plenty of solid musicians never got a break- becasue lack of promotion. for all teh bitching Prince did the label promoted teh hell out of him (of course to their benefit as well) . Just becasue you're a musical genius it doesnt mean you blow up in sales without help. Especailly back then.

FUNKYNESS said:

funksterr said:

It seems you know exactly what I meant.

It makes no sense that Prince controls The Time at this point, other than maybe he's padding out his catalog with that material. At most he should be a partner with the band, and even then that's probably unnecessary unless he needs the money.

What doesnt make sense? Prince owns the Time. PLain and simple. THey became the Time because of him. It is not like he just discovered them and put them on his tour, He made all the music and the concept - then preformed it on all their classic albums. He made them famous and they built solo careers on that fame, He owes them nothing else. Prince IS the Time and always has been. I wouldnt give that up for anyone if I was Prince.

Actually the adio made them famous as well as their live shows. He wouldnt let them play some nights...so thats the OPPPOSITE of making someone famous.

What CAN be done is that Fdeluxe can come out with an CD called THE FAMILY. It can say THE FAMILY boldly on the front and side of the CD packaging. They can even make a song (probably an instrumental) called THE FAMILY or THE FAMILY JAMS.

It wouldn't be tough to do that.

The Jackson 5 lost their ability to call themselves that, so when they came out with the Victory album, they called themselves THE JACKSONS but the final S in JacksonS was shaped like a 5. It got around the legal aspects of it, and yet paid homage to to the band.

Morris should just come out with an album called IT IS THE TIME.

There are ways around it.

The Monkees pay a fee every time they use the Monkees logo or name on their albums, tours. They pay it because it is worth it. The Family may not be able to do that, so find a way around it.

madhouseman said:

What CAN be done is that Fdeluxe can come out with an CD called THE FAMILY. It can say THE FAMILY boldly on the front and side of the CD packaging. They can even make a song (probably an instrumental) called THE FAMILY or THE FAMILY JAMS.

It wouldn't be tough to do that.

The Jackson 5 lost their ability to call themselves that, so when they came out with the Victory album, they called themselves THE JACKSONS but the final S in JacksonS was shaped like a 5. It got around the legal aspects of it, and yet paid homage to to the band.

Morris should just come out with an album called IT IS THE TIME.

There are ways around it.

The Monkees pay a fee every time they use the Monkees logo or name on their albums, tours. They pay it because it is worth it. The Family may not be able to do that, so find a way around it.

Great suggestions!

madhouseman said:

What CAN be done is that Fdeluxe can come out with an CD called THE FAMILY. It can say THE FAMILY boldly on the front and side of the CD packaging. They can even make a song (probably an instrumental) called THE FAMILY or THE FAMILY JAMS.

It wouldn't be tough to do that.

The Jackson 5 lost their ability to call themselves that, so when they came out with the Victory album, they called themselves THE JACKSONS but the final S in JacksonS was shaped like a 5. It got around the legal aspects of it, and yet paid homage to to the band.

Morris should just come out with an album called IT IS THE TIME.

There are ways around it.

The Monkees pay a fee every time they use the Monkees logo or name on their albums, tours. They pay it because it is worth it. The Family may not be able to do that, so find a way around it.

do u think prince would freak out if they pulled those stunts?

madhouseman said:

What CAN be done is that Fdeluxe can come out with an CD called THE FAMILY.

I thought Kirk Franklin owns the name "The Family".

funksterr said:

FUNKYNESS said:

What doesnt make sense? Prince owns the Time. PLain and simple. THey became the Time because of him. It is not like he just discovered them and put them on his tour, He made all the music and the concept - then preformed it on all their classic albums. He made them famous and they built solo careers on that fame, He owes them nothing else. Prince IS the Time and always has been. I wouldnt give that up for anyone if I was Prince.

Almost everything you said isn't true, but especially the statement I highlighted. Did you even read the Jesse Johnson comments I reposted earlier in the thread? Apparantley not. Go read that, then remember that Lisa Coleman, Dez and Andre Cymone also contributed to The Time in multiple and various ways. Then come back and tell me that Prince IS The Time.

I dont need to go read or report back anything. My knowledge of Prince history is beyond reproach so I take home work assignments from no one. Considering everything Dez, Andre, Morris - and especially Wendy and Lisa (who were grossly overrated and blatantly overstated by Wendy in the opinions of some Prince fans) - have done with Prince and it doesn't amount to the success and or brilliance that made them all household names and helped them launch solo careers. I am a huge Dez fan - read his book and believe everything he claims as his pivotal role in making those earliest projects. He never got enough credit. But, when it is all said and done, it comes down to Prince - and it always has.

Zannaloaf said:

FUNKYNESS said:

What doesnt make sense? Prince owns the Time. PLain and simple. THey became the Time because of him. It is not like he just discovered them and put them on his tour, He made all the music and the concept - then preformed it on all their classic albums. He made them famous and they built solo careers on that fame, He owes them nothing else. Prince IS the Time and always has been. I wouldnt give that up for anyone if I was Prince.

Actually the adio made them famous as well as their live shows. He wouldnt let them play some nights...so thats the OPPPOSITE of making someone famous.

Remove Prince from the Time equation and you get no Time as we knew it - figuratively and literally. What you get is the Original 7.

FUNKYNESS said:

funksterr said:

Almost everything you said isn't true, but especially the statement I highlighted. Did you even read the Jesse Johnson comments I reposted earlier in the thread? Apparantley not. Go read that, then remember that Lisa Coleman, Dez and Andre Cymone also contributed to The Time in multiple and various ways. Then come back and tell me that Prince IS The Time.

I dont need to go read or report back anything. My knowledge of Prince history is beyond reproach so I take home work assignments from no one. Considering everything Dez, Andre, Morris - and especially Wendy and Lisa (who were grossly overrated and blatantly overstated by Wendy in the opinions of some Prince fans) - have done with Prince and it doesn't amount to the success and or brilliance that made them all household names and helped them launch solo careers. I am a huge Dez fan - read his book and believe everything he claims as his pivotal role in making those earliest projects. He never got enough credit. But, when it is all said and done, it comes down to Prince - and it always has.

You aren't making any sense whatsoever. Everybody in The Time has hits outside of Prince. Wendy and Lisa have hits and successful careers outside of Prince. And that is not the point anyway:

You said:

He made all the music and the concept - then preformed it on all their classic albums. He made them famous and they built solo careers on that fame, He owes them nothing else. Prince IS the Time and always has been.

Yet Jesse, Lisa, Morris, Dez, Paul, Jellybean and Andre either created the concept (based on Kid Creole and The Coconuts), co-wrote and/or perform most if not all the songs on the albums. So what about that?

I hate when some fans say "Prince IS the Time".If that is true,then why did he hire those guys in the first place? Instead of having those guys in Purple Rain,Prince could have simply played all of their roles,right? He could have played Morris' role,right? Hell,he could have just been the ONLY person in the film! LOL

Prince is a genuis,but nobody can do everything by themselves.Prince wrote and produced their music,but they still sang and played it in concert.They brought it all to life.

MickyDolenz said:

madhouseman said:

What CAN be done is that Fdeluxe can come out with an CD called THE FAMILY.

I thought Kirk Franklin owns the name "The Family".

He means as a title of the cd, not the name of the group.

SoulAlive said:

I hate when some fans say "Prince IS the Time".If that is true,then why did he hire those guys in the first place? Instead of having those guys in Purple Rain,Prince could have simply played all of their roles,right? He could have played Morris' role,right? Hell,he could have just been the ONLY person in the film! LOL

Prince is a genuis,but nobody can do everything by themselves.Prince wrote and produced their music,but they still sang and played it in concert.They brought it all to life.

Truth.

Too many extremists on the org either overstating or underestimating various Prince associates. There's never any middle ground.

babynoz said:

He means as a title of the cd, not the name of the group.

I mean if Kirk registered the name, how can Prince deny the use of it? Kirk could if he wanted to.

MickyDolenz said:

babynoz said:

He means as a title of the cd, not the name of the group.

I mean if Kirk registered the name, how can Prince deny the use of it? Kirk could if he wanted to.

He cannot, but everybody is scared of Prince and think that he's invincible or that they have to be rich to fight him.

MickyDolenz said:

babynoz said:

He means as a title of the cd, not the name of the group.

I mean if Kirk registered the name, how can Prince deny the use of it? Kirk could if he wanted to.

As far as I can tell, no one owns "The Family".

http://tmsearch.uspto.gov

[Edited 10/31/15 16:07pm]