Aside from the original run of The Time in the early 80's, we have two projects that we can study - "Pandemonium" and "Condensate". Funk was not an "in vogue" genre in either of the years these albums were released. Yet the former led to The Time's only ever #1 single (Jerk Out) whilst the latter fell apart just weeks after release. Why do you think one worked and one did not?

Here's some quotes from Jimmy Jam, from the "Pandemonium" era.

Jimmy Jam:

"There's a big difference between what Terry and I do as producers and the role we play in The Time. As producers we look for the sound that works best for a certain artist. But when I'm in The Time, I'm not a producer, I'm a musician. "

Prince's involvement or non-involvement is a hard thing to put into terms. He is a big fan of the band. Prince is a big part, a silent partner, so to speak, in what we do. Always has been, always will be."

"One of the first things that happened when we decided to do the reunion, was that we decided to get Prince involved in any way he wanted, whether he wanted to be there to bounce ideas off, or sit in a room with us while we wrote our songs."

"For us, Prince is the eighth member of The Time. He's been very influential. It's sort of like we're his sons and he's the dad."

What do you mean by "worked" when it comes to Condensate? Do you mean as a collective piece of music or as a music lp that didn't go anywhere with lack of promotion and participation, etc.? A lot of us on here really liked the album and thought it "worked" well as an album for the most part and were really disappointed when the expected follow-up tour fell apart...

purplethunder3121 said:

condensation didnt work b/c prince wasnt involved they were trying to created with him in mind and that cant work b/c prince is the time and this was there 1st time actually being a band outside of princes vision

cbarnes3121 said:

i liked Condesate far better as an album. I dont listen to either on the regualr though because I have so many artists I listen to. My musical palette is far broader than 15 years ago. Musically and production wise I found Condestate superior to Pandemonium. Jerk Out and Chocolate were pretty tired to me even at the time - felt like leftovers not heated up all the way.. Maybe I liked Blondie for the guitar. Condensate had some tracks I skipped but I liked the core of it. Too bad it never had real promotion. I guess that's a lesson these guys cant seem to learn.

Condensate was basicaly an independent release. 90 percent of why something is a commercial hit depends on who's marketing and selling it and the amount of money poured into promotion. Condensate didn't receive a lot of early promotion. Add to that the name change, the 20 year absence of new material or a full on Time tour. Most Time fans STILL don't know it exists. We are in an era when high profile acts, on major labels with an enormous pop culture and social media prescense, and a fanbase of millions of young people, can drop new material and get virtually no sales. Chris Brown and Justin Bieber come to mind, but they are far from alone. The road can get a lot tougher for acts who were most popular in the 70's, 80's and 90's. That's why it's so important for bands to bring their A game. I think the guys got it right musically, but without their true brand name "The Time" and a commitment from Prince to cross market their project, they were working at an extreme disadvantage. Add to that creative differences with Jesse and the project stumbled straight out of the gate. However, not before I had the chance to do the bird with Morris and Jerome!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have no complaints. In a perfect world Prince would commit 2 weeks in LA with Jimmy, Terry, Morris, Wendy, Lisa and Sheila writing and recording 3 new records for Prince and The Revolution, The Time and Sheila E. They would then tour the world over the next 2 years promoting those albums and all would be right in the Purple Kingdom for the first time since the mid-80's, but one can only dream.

Zannaloaf said:

i liked Condesate far better as an album. Musically and production wise,I found Condestate superior to Pandemonium. Jerk Out and Chocolate were pretty tired to me even at the time - felt like leftovers not heated up all the way.. Maybe I liked Blondie for the guitar. Condensate had some tracks I skipped but I liked the core of it. Too bad it never had real promotion. I guess that's a lesson these guys cant seem to learn.

I agree.I think Pandemonium was surprisingly mediocre.The only tracks that I really like are "Jerkout","It's Your World" and the title track.The album is messy and unfocused and even Prince's contributions aren't that strong."My Summertime Thing" and "Data Bank" are just old,dusty jams that he pulled out of the vault.They're not great tunes."Chocolate" sounded horribly dated in 1990.

I think Condensate is a stronger album than both Ice Cream Castles and Pandemonium.

plus,these days,a funk band from the 80s isn't gonna sell alot of records and get alot of airplay and promotion.I never had any unrealistic expectations about how well the album would do in today's musical climate.

funksterr said:

Condensate was basicaly an independent release. 90 percent of why something is a commercial hit depends on who's marketing and selling it and the amount of money poured into promotion. Condensate didn't receive a lot of early promotion.

They tried too hard to be something they just aren't anymore.

Pandemonium is clearly superior! I like that album.

SoulAlive said:

"Chocolate" sounded horribly dated in 1990.

I liked Chocolate. But I remember when I bought the maxi single. The cashier (who was mostly a hip hop fan) laughed when I put it on the counter. This was the new jack swing era and other older acts like The Gap Band, Cameo, Kool & The Gang, James Ingram, Bar Kays, Sheena Easton, The Jacksons, James Brown, and even Boy George were releasing new jack records. So Pandemonium didn't really fit. They played Jerk Out on the radio, both R&B & pop stations, but I never heard Chocolate played. The R&B station did play Sometimes I Get Lonely a lot. I think Jerk Out might have been popular on pop radio because Morris was kinda rapping the lyrics, and rap was becoming really mainstream around this time with Tone Loc, Young MC, Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince, Vanilla Ice, Technotronic, MC Hammer, etc. getting heavy Top 40 airplay and selling a lot.

I loved Condensate. I was blown away at how great the production of the songs were, however I believe the CD fell flat because the group did not tour. Simple as that.

wonder505 said:

I loved Condensate. I was blown away at how great the production of the songs were, however I believe the CD fell flat because the group did not tour. Simple as that.

They're signed to Saguaro Records. Here's some of their other acts. How many of them have any really popular recent albums?

.

Adam Hood
Bo Bice
Dion
Edwin McCain
Joan Osborne
Lonestar
Marc Cohn
Mark Chesnutt
Patty Loveless
Rebecca Lynn Howard
Tanya Tucker
The Blind Boys of Alabama

.

Lots of acts tour, but it doesn't necessarily help them sell big, especially ones seen as "oldies". The Cars had a new record out around the same time as the O7. It didn't do that much, and they had no name change. You can't really expect an old group on a small label to sell much. Superheavy (Mick Jagger, Dave Stewart, Joss Stone, etc) was on a major and they had some media mention, but I don't think it sold much, and neither has Sting's recent album.

^^ exactly! Very few artists or bands from the 80s are still selling alot of records these days.Even Prince's recent albums didn't sell very well.But it's especially difficult for an 80s funk band (on an independent label) to sell records in this era.I don't think touring would have made much of a difference.

SoulAlive said:

^^ exactly! Very few artists or bands from the 80s are still selling alot of records these days.Even Prince's recent albums didn't sell very well.But it's especially difficult for an 80s funk band (on an independent label) to sell records in this era.I don't think touring would have made much of a difference.

The reunion albums of Black Sabbath and the one with the return of David Lee Roth to Van Halen had a lot of hype and media coverage, but still the sales were not much, and both groups did tour. Rush had a popular tour with Clockwork Angels, but I don't think the album was that big. All of these groups were and still are way more popular than The Time ever was. They get played all the time on classic rock stations, but I don't hear The Time that much on the radio, and none of the Morris & Jesse solo stuff at all, except Don't Wait For Me on the Quiet storm every once in awhile. That's probably the reason some old rock groups can still have successful tours today. They still get heard, either on oldies, classic rock, commercials, TV shows, video games, store muzak, and movies. How many times have you heard Bad To The Bone by George Thorogood somewhere? That wasn't a big hit when originally released. I've heard Let's Get It On by Marvin Gaye in many commercials. That's how some old hits are still popular today, and others long forgotten. They don't get played anywhere.

.

The boomers tend to be more loyal to their music than the generations after. They're the ones behind a Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame, and many of the acts in there are boomer era, music circa 1964-1975. The acts popular with boomers are the main ones getting re-packaged all the time like Dark Side Of The Moon and the endless compilations of 1960's era Motown. Remember those big selling soundtracks to Dirty Dancing & Big Chill, which were full of 1960s music. The Dirty Dancing one was so popular, they later released a second one More Dirty Dancing.

Why Pandemoniupm was a commercial success and Condensate wasn't is a no brainer: one benefited from a decent promo by WB/Reprise, at a time when record sales were extremely high and benefited from the hype of being a Prince-related project, and the other was an indy release at a time when records don't sell no more and had little to create a hipe around it.

.

Artistically I always loved Pandemonium but one has to keep in mind that it's an album I've had for 23 years, I literally grew up with it (I was 14 when I first bought it). I really didn't like Condensate when it was released, it was a big disappointment for me and even though P wasn't on it I was really expecting something I'd love because I love what Morris, Jesse, Jam & Lewis have done separately. I've been listening to it again lately and I'm starting to like it. It took me 3 years but now I see many qualities in it, but it's not an album that makes me dance on my chair the way Rise Up does, or daydream the way Gaslight does, it's just that it has enough elements of its creators' and The Time's (Prince's) sound in it to make me enjoy it. Maybe it'll keep growing and I'll end-up really loving it, IDK, but now I just like it OK. The thing for me is that Pandemonium really kept the Prince sound of The Time while at the same time being relevant to the new jack swing sound of the era (Pandemonium - the song - was kind of perfectly in the middle), so it was a really cool achievement by 1990. The 2 rock songs were kind of a surprise (even though there was a precedent with My Drawers), and let's not forget it contains 2 of Prince's most lethal funk jams: Chocolate and Jerk Out! Thing is also that in the end Pandemonium was the first really collaborative Time album: it cumulated the talents of Prince, Morris, Jesse, Jam & Lewis, 5 individuals who were extremely strong songwriters and producers at the time.

Condensate lacks... Prince! And it feels. In terms of content it's more like a mix of a little bit of this and a little bit of that, there are some obvious self-The Time/Morris Day homages in it, some obvious references to Prince and others (Strawberry Lake really is Ice Cream Castles meets Everyday People), Jesse's unavoidable rock tracks, a few unexpected things (the relatively experimental-sounding Faithful: I'd never thought I'd hear tablas in a Time song!!!), and some songs that I find a bit irritating because they try too much to sound like 2010... In the end it's a much nicer collection of songs that I first thought, but I don't think it'll ever replace Pandemonium in my heart.

I don't think there's really any point to be made here. First we're starting off with a quote from JJ that's decades old with no current quote as a comparison. No link to said quote either.

Secondly, it's totally subjective if one has a preference of one or the other album. I happen to prefer Condensate and have always been confident that this group of very talented musicians could produce a great cd without any Prince involvement whatsoever. Nobody can take that away from them no matter what.

It's kind of lame that the org psychic friends network keeps pushing this notion that somehow were it not for Prince these guys would all have ended up sitting on a corner holding a tin cup or something... for all we know they could have gotten signed with another label or maybe hired Alexander Oneal to sing lead and been even more successful. There's absolutely now way to know for sure what would have happened if they had gone in a different direction or held out for another deal, for example, so why automatically assume that failure is the only other possible outcome? It's silly.

For one thing, Condensate didnt work because as someone else pointed out this independent release did not benefit from major label promotion. Secondly we had one member who flaked out and threw a monkey wrench in the works early on and all of the other members except one acted like they couldn't be arsed to stay committed to the project.

Finally, the success of this project was limited to begin with since there is no longer a big market for eighties funk bands. How many people keep up with these musicians besides us? People are comparing apples to oranges and it's annoying because it's not fair.

babynoz said:

I don't think there's really any point to be made here. First we're starting off with a quote from JJ that's decades old with no current quote as a comparison. No link to said quote either.

Secondly, it's totally subjective if one has a preference of one or the other album. I happen to prefer Condensate and have always been confident that this group of very talented musicians could produce a great cd without any Prince involvement whatsoever. Nobody can take that away from them no matter what.

It's kind of lame that the org psychic friends network keeps pushing this notion that somehow were it not for Prince these guys would all have ended up sitting on a corner holding a tin cup or something... for all we know they could have gotten signed with another label or maybe hired Alexander Oneal to sing lead and been even more successful. There's absolutely now way to know for sure what would have happened if they had gone in a different direction or held out for another deal, for example, so why automatically assume that failure is the only other possible outcome? It's silly.

For one thing, Condensate didnt work because as someone else pointed out this independent release did not benefit from major label promotion. Secondly we had one member who flaked out and threw a monkey wrench in the works early on and all of the other members except one acted like they couldn't be arsed to stay committed to the project.

Finally, the success of this project was limited to begin with since there is no longer a big market for eighties funk bands. How many people keep up with these musicians besides us? People are comparing apples to oranges and it's annoying because it's not fair.

The best response to this thread period. Yes Prince involvement would have made

Condensate a huge success. It would have went double platinum. Silly notion

considering Prince isn't selling records himself these days. All you can ask from these

veteran acts from the 70's and 80's is a good album and tour. At least you got one

in Condensate which was a good album imo.

first of all and the end of all the time is prince and his vision and the guys only lived out what prince envisioned 4 them its hard 2 do that on their own cuz they trying 2 recreate something that is not theres.the 1st time album was done before the group was even formed which goes 2 show how much prince and morris day is the time.i would love 2 see prince and all 7 of those guys lay all the bull shit aside go in the studio no vault track start from jam sessions and just create.every last member of that groups is super talented there is no way on this earth they cant come 2gether and just work out some magic

cbarnes3121 said:

first of all and the end of all the time is prince and his vision and the guys only lived out what prince envisioned 4 them its hard 2 do that on their own cuz they trying 2 recreate something that is not theres.the 1st time album was done before the group was even formed which goes 2 show how much prince and morris day is the time.i would love 2 see prince and all 7 of those guys lay all the bull shit aside go in the studio no vault track start from jam sessions and just create.every last member of that groups is super talented there is no way on this earth they cant come 2gether and just work out some magic

"Condensate" just doesn't hold up next to "Pandemonium", IMO.

And as far as what "funk bands" are selling these days and their relevance in pop culture, what you've got to remember is the same was true when "Pandemonium" came out. Funk wasn't on the radio in 1990, everyone was making new jack records. So the fact that The Time had a huge album and a #1 single off that album is even more impressive.

You can't say that "Trendin" holds up next to "Jerk Out", it just doesn't. Jesse's songs on Condensate don't really hold up to "Blondie" or "Skillet". Who did "Sometimes I Get Lonely"? on Pandemonium? Wasn't that Jam & Lewis? That's a fucking classic Jam & Lewis ballad right there up there with anything they've ever written. I don't think you can say that about their songs on Condensate.

And of course, the album suffers without Prince.

A real Time album needs Prince. I think with one, with the original members, with some more label support, and a tour, The Time could do well.

Militant said:

Who did "Sometimes I Get Lonely"? on Pandemonium? Wasn't that Jam & Lewis?

No, it was Monte

Militant said:

"Condensate" just doesn't hold up next to "Pandemonium", IMO.

And as far as what "funk bands" are selling these days and their relevance in pop culture, what you've got to remember is the same was true when "Pandemonium" came out. Funk wasn't on the radio in 1990, everyone was making new jack records. So the fact that The Time had a huge album and a #1 single off that album is even more impressive.

You can't say that "Trendin" holds up next to "Jerk Out", it just doesn't. Jesse's songs on Condensate don't really hold up to "Blondie" or "Skillet". Who did "Sometimes I Get Lonely"? on Pandemonium? Wasn't that Jam & Lewis? That's a fucking classic Jam & Lewis ballad right there up there with anything they've ever written. I don't think you can say that about their songs on Condensate.

And of course, the album suffers without Prince.

A real Time album needs Prince. I think with one, with the original members, with some more label support, and a tour, The Time could do well.

All subjective opinion and conjecture.

MickyDolenz said:

Militant said:

Who did "Sometimes I Get Lonely"? on Pandemonium? Wasn't that Jam & Lewis?

No, it was Monte

Ah, no wonder! Monte is the master of the slow jam. Alex O Neal's "If You Were Here Tonight" is one of the best slow jams of all time, IMO, and he did that one too.

babynoz said:

All subjective opinion and conjecture.

You think "Trendin" is better than "Jerk Out"? "AYDKMN" and "Lifestyle" better than "Blondie" and "Skillet"?

Listen, I'm as big a fan of The Time as anyone. I have all of Morris's solo albums, all of Jesse's solo albums, tons of J&L productions, I think Monte is supremely under-rated as a producer/songwriter (hell, Janet's "Pleasure Principle" and Alex O Neal's "If You Were Here Tonight" are two of my favorite 80's jams, by ANYONE)......and when I met Jellybean after a great fDeluxe show, I immediately told him how much I love "Black Cat" and he just lit up, then we had a great discussion about The Time as well.

All opinions are subjective. But in no universe does "Condensate" stand up to "Pandemonium". It used to be, and with Prince in charge, that The Time had a cohesive sound and style that worked perfectly for them.

That's just not the case with "Condensate". Listen to "Toast To The Party Girl" and then listen to "Cadillac". That might as well be two completely different bands. Then listen to "One Step". Completely different musical style again. And none of these songs are particularly memorable.

"GoHomeToYoMan" is one of few songs that actually sounds like The Time. It has echoes of "Gigolos Get Lonely Too".

I feel that without Prince, there's just no underlying vision or cohesiveness. It's as if Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford got together to make a space movie about a war with an evil dark galactic force, except without George Lucas involved. They might well make an enjoyable film, but it'll never be Star Wars.

I was pretty enthusiastic when this album dropped, but over time I've just found it doesn't have the replay value. Are Morris, Jellybean and Monte playing any of these songs in the current tours that they do? Because I suspect not, and perhaps they don't believe in most of these songs either. Hell, I have a bootleg of one of The Original 7Ven shows from when the album dropped, and they played a grand total of TWO new songs in their set - Strawberry Lake, and Trendin. Jesse got the option to play two of his solo songs in their set - "Be Your Man" and "Can You Help Me"..... and it's interesting that he wanted to play those, instead of insisting they play some of the new songs that he had written for the album, like "AYDKNM" and "Lifestyle".

Militant said:

babynoz said:

All subjective opinion and conjecture.

You think "Trendin" is better than "Jerk Out"? "AYDKMN" and "Lifestyle" better than "Blondie" and "Skillet"?

Listen, I'm as big a fan of The Time as anyone. I have all of Morris's solo albums, all of Jesse's solo albums, tons of J&L productions, I think Monte is supremely under-rated as a producer/songwriter (hell, Janet's "Pleasure Principle" and Alex O Neal's "If You Were Here Tonight" are two of my favorite 80's jams, by ANYONE)......and when I met Jellybean after a great fDeluxe show, I immediately told him how much I love "Black Cat" and he just lit up, then we had a great discussion about The Time as well.

All opinions are subjective. But in no universe does "Condensate" stand up to "Pandemonium". It used to be, and with Prince in charge, that The Time had a cohesive sound and style that worked perfectly for them.

That's just not the case with "Condensate". Listen to "Toast To The Party Girl" and then listen to "Cadillac". That might as well be two completely different bands. Then listen to "One Step". Completely different musical style again. And none of these songs are particularly memorable.

"GoHomeToYoMan" is one of few songs that actually sounds like The Time. It has echoes of "Gigolos Get Lonely Too".

I feel that without Prince, there's just no underlying vision or cohesiveness. It's as if Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford got together to make a space movie about a war with an evil dark galactic force, except without George Lucas involved. They might well make an enjoyable film, but it'll never be Star Wars.

I was pretty enthusiastic when this album dropped, but over time I've just found it doesn't have the replay value. Are Morris, Jellybean and Monte playing any of these songs in the current tours that they do? Because I suspect not, and perhaps they don't believe in most of these songs either. Hell, I have a bootleg of one of The Original 7Ven shows from when the album dropped, and they played a grand total of TWO new songs in their set - Strawberry Lake, and Trendin. Jesse got the option to play two of his solo songs in their set - "Be Your Man" and "Can You Help Me"..... and it's interesting that he wanted to play those, instead of insisting they play some of the new songs that he had written for the album, like "AYDKNM" and "Lifestyle".

There's likely nothing we will ever agree on about this topic so you can stop wasting your time...

You didn't answer my question, though.

Do you really like "Trendin" more than "Jerk Out"? and "ADYKMN" and "Lifestyle" more than "Blondie" and "Skillet"? I legitimately would like to know this.

Militant said:

You didn't answer my question, though.

Do you really like "Trendin" more than "Jerk Out"? and "ADYKMN" and "Lifestyle" more than "Blondie" and "Skillet"? I legitimately would like to know this.

Yes I did. I said that I prefer Condensate to Pandemonium meaning the entire album.

Here's some current video views on Youtube for newer stuff by veteran acts

Original 7ven: Trendin' ~ 144,725

Van Halen: Tattoo ~ 6,244,778

Van Halen: She's The Woman ~ 1,145,414

Sade: Babyfather ~ 2,126,810

Sade: Soldier Of Love ~ 10,808,036
Weird Al: Stop Forwarding That Crap To Me ~ 1,262,190

Sting: The Last Ship ~ 52,662

Ricky Martin: Vida ~ 5,409,574

Rod Stewart: Let It Snow! Let It Snow! Let It Snow! ~ 479,839

Red Hot Chili Peppers: Brendan's Death Song ~ 4,288,441

Black Sabbath: God Is Dead? ~ 4,709,046

Earth, Wind & Fire: Guiding Lights ~ 14,461

The Brand New Heavies: Sunlight ~ 155,856

Charlie Wilson: My Love Is All I Have ~ 2,305,771

Ronald Isley ft. Kem: My Favorite Thing ~ 666,158

The Delfonics: Stop and Look (And You Have Found Love) ~ 30,100

Lou Reed & Metallica: The View ~ 757,653

George Strait: Here For A Good Time ~ 2,230,560

LL Cool J ft. Joe: Take It ~ 1,484,820

El DeBarge ft. Faith Evans: Lay With You ~ 2,033,982

Eric Benet: Real Love ~ 471,437

Paul McCartney: Queenie Eye ~ 3,809,149

Paul McCartney: New ~ 1,078,356

Ringo Starr: Wings ~ 200,798

The Beatles: Words Of Love ~ 2,214,788

Depeche Mode: Heaven ~ 13,074,553

Depeche Mode: Soothe My Soul ~ 4,007,241

ZZ Top: I Gotsta Get Paid ~ 4,882,835

Gloria Estefan: Wepa ~ 1,407,765 / (audio only video) ~ 4,959,460

Sananda Maitreya: Kangaroo ~ 9,201

Donald Fagen: I'm Not The Same Without You ~ 237,615

Michael Jackson: Hollywood Tonight ~ 29,235,292

The Cars: Sad Song ~ 24,202

Prince: Breakfast Can Wait ~ 2,772,984

George Benson: Unforgettable ~ 45,835

Duran Duran: Girl Panic! ~ 6,739,371

George Michael: Let Her Down Easy ~ 822,389

Karyn White: Unbreakable ~ 36,051

Chaka Khan: Angel ~ 1,338,764

Madonna: Turn Up The Radio ~ 7,898,129

Tears For Fears: My Girls ~ 131,187

Ratt: Eat Me Up Alive ~ 109,094

Lionel Richie ft. Shania Twain: Endless Love ~ 7,283,785

Elton John: Home Again ~ 1,260,175

Beastie Boys: Make Some Noise ~ 8,066,162

Toni Braxton & Babyface: Hurt You ~ 2,522,729

Heart: Fanatic ~ 53,114

New Kids On The Block: Remix ~ 2,834,879

Eddie Murphy ft. Snoop Lion: Red Light ~ 3,683,292

Shaggy ft. Ne-Yo: You Girl ~ 2,117,706

Rush: The Wreckers ~ 248,523

Wilson Phillips: Good Vibrations ~ 195,429

Color Me Badd: Skywalkin' ~ 2,781

Phil Collins: Going Back ~ 1,787,535

The Lonely Island feat. Michael Bolton: Jack Sparrow ~ 122,773,955
Kris Kross: So So Def 20th Anniversary ~ 651,246

Mariah Carey ft. Trey Songz: You're Mine (Eternal) ~ 1,846,089