In the songs with horns, Eric Leeds and Matt Blisstan (spelling?), how much leeway in composing their parts do you think they had? I imagine at least the solos had some original input from those guys (and any others who played horns). Did Prince play the lines on a keyboard, mouth-sound them, what? Does he write music, and do those guys read music? This just occurred to me yesterday.

They pretty much added whatever they wanted, sometimes with guidance from Prince, but mostly they did whatever they liked. Prince doesn't write music. When he wanted something specific, he would just sound out what he wanted. I've seen him do this before with the NPG and it's quite cool, imo, when he does this. When Prince composes with other people he usually just trades recording sessions back and forth with them. They aren't usually all together in a room communicating ideas. At a certain point Prince decides he has what he needs and finishes the track or moves on to something else.

Dogsinthetrees said:

In the songs with horns, Eric Leeds and Matt Blisstan (spelling?), how much leeway in composing their parts do you think they had? I imagine at least the solos had some original input from those guys (and any others who played horns). Did Prince play the lines on a keyboard, mouth-sound them, what? Does he write music, and do those guys read music? This just occurred to me yesterday.

I've wondered the same and from the info I've been able to gather so far:

It's Matthew Blistan.

Prince can't read or write music, Eric and Atlanta can (as well as most horn players he's had).

Prince would sometimes give guidelines, either by humming them or recording horns parts on synths that Eric and Atlanta (or others) would turn into more elaborated horns arrangements/solos. That's why, for example he has all composing credits on 8: Eric did the horns based on basic melodies Prince had recorded on synths.

Prince would sometimes be with them in the studio and work on the horns arrangements with them (either during improvised jam sessions or in more horns focused recording sessions, and that's when he'd hum what he'd want).

Prince would also sometimes give them a track and let them do whatever they wanted with it, then he would alternatively either keep the horns as such, edit them down to fit his vision or completely ignore them and release the track without horns at all.

So basically every horns in Prince's songs had, by definition, a creative input by the horns player, but that could go from following detailed instructions from composing full horns arrangements and solos.

Hope this helped

A funny story Eric once told in an interview about The Sex Of It:

August Darnell had met Prince in a club in Europe suring the SOTT tour and asked him if he could give him a song and Prince said OK.

Eric, unaware of this, was really tripping on Kid Creole And The Coconuts' music, particularly their 1987 release I, Too, Have Seen The Woods.

One day, Eric came to Paisley Park and Prince had just recorded The Sex Of It and when the engineer let Eric listen to it, unaware of what P had in mind for that track he said "I'm gonna record horns on that, and if P doesn't like it he can leave it out I don't care", and so he did. Eric composed the horns arrangements with Kid Creole's last album in mind and he tried to make it sound like a Kid Creole song.

The next day Prince listened to that and told Eric he liked it and was gonna keep it and when Eric asked him "what are you going to do with that song?" he said "I'm gonna send it to Kid Creole"

After that Prince just... forgot to send the track for 2 years because he was too busy and when he finally did in 89, Kid Creole's new album was about to be released and the record company decided to postpone the release until Darnell could add his vocals and add the song to the album, which was finally released in 1990 with the song as its lead single, which eventually became one of the band's biggest hits.

Eric also said he's recorded a full horns arrangements for The Balld Of Dorothy Parker, which Prince finally decided not to use. On a sidenote Clare Fisher also was asked to compose strings arrangements but they were discarded as well, so a lot of experimentation was done with the track... for nothing.

databank said:

Eric also said he's recorded a full horns arrangements for The Balld Of Dorothy Parker, which Prince finally decided not to use. On a sidenote Clare Fisher also was asked to compose strings arrangements but they were discarded as well, so a lot of experimentation was done with the track... for nothing.

Tell me more!

Tell me more!!!

Were these the musical extentions intended for the 12" single?

I gotta know!

I gotta hear it!!!

Please, give it to me!!!!!!

.

sorry

got over-excited.

.

"The Sex Of It" is another great slice of purple funk that should have been extended a bit, also (imho).

I was really disappointed by that 12" release.

.

i'm sorry, what was the topic, again?

Prost!

nayroo2002 said:

databank said:

Eric also said he's recorded a full horns arrangements for The Balld Of Dorothy Parker, which Prince finally decided not to use. On a sidenote Clare Fisher also was asked to compose strings arrangements but they were discarded as well, so a lot of experimentation was done with the track... for nothing.

Tell me more!

Tell me more!!!

Were these the musical extentions intended for the 12" single?

I gotta know!

I gotta hear it!!!

Please, give it to me!!!!!!

.

sorry

got over-excited.

.

"The Sex Of It" is another great slice of purple funk that should have been extended a bit, also (imho).

I was really disappointed by that 12" release.

.

i'm sorry, what was the topic, again?

Prost!

I don't think we know anything more, I'm not even sure whether this is circulating among the "elite" fans or if it's locked in the vault for good but I think Boris once said he'd heard it (not owned it, just heard it once) but I may be tripping, it dates back to years ago. Not sure either whether the sax and/or strings versions were for the extended version or both or just the album version.

No extended version of TSOI by Prince has ever been reported as far as I know, and he had nothing to do with the 12'' mixes. His version is circulating, though, as well as a 45mn rehearsal of it from 87.

databank said:

nayroo2002 said:

Prost!

I don't think we know anything more, I'm not even sure whether this is circulating among the "elite" fans or if it's locked in the vault for good but I think Boris once said he'd heard it (not owned it, just heard it once) but I may be tripping, it dates back to years ago. Not sure either whether the sax and/or strings versions were for the extended version or both or just the album version.

There was a person (tangerine17?) on here back when 'Ultimate' was about to be released spewing all kinds of info. This person said that he/she was working on the compilation and afforded their own vinyl collection for the innersleeve photo. They also claimed to have heard the extended version of "The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker" and said it contained a lengthy sax solo by Eric Leeds.

This planned 12" single backed with "Shockadelica" is my -holy grail-.

No extended version of TSOI by Prince has ever been reported as far as I know, and he had nothing to do with the 12'' mixes. His version is circulating, though, as well as a 45mn rehearsal of it from 87.

I have heard the rehearsals and it now makes more sense when you say that Clare Fischer was involved somehow, i.e. the live intro.

Fun insight!!!

Prost!

nayroo2002 said:

databank said:

I don't think we know anything more, I'm not even sure whether this is circulating among the "elite" fans or if it's locked in the vault for good but I think Boris once said he'd heard it (not owned it, just heard it once) but I may be tripping, it dates back to years ago. Not sure either whether the sax and/or strings versions were for the extended version or both or just the album version.

There was a person (tangerine17?) on here back when 'Ultimate' was about to be released spewing all kinds of info. This person said that he/she was working on the compilation and afforded their own vinyl collection for the innersleeve photo. They also claimed to have heard the extended version of "The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker" and said it contained a lengthy sax solo by Eric Leeds.

This planned 12" single backed with "Shockadelica" is my -holy grail-.

No extended version of TSOI by Prince has ever been reported as far as I know, and he had nothing to do with the 12'' mixes. His version is circulating, though, as well as a 45mn rehearsal of it from 87.

I have heard the rehearsals and it now makes more sense when you say that Clare Fischer was involved somehow, i.e. the live intro.

Fun insight!!!

Prost!

It may not have been Boris then, as I said it goes back to about 2006 indeed.

Clare Fisher was involved in TBODP not TSOI.

databank said:

nayroo2002 said:

i have poopypants

It may not have been Boris then, as I said it goes back to about 2006 indeed.

Clare Fisher was involved in TBODP not TSOI.

ok.

then when Mr. Fischer was involved in "The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker", the plot has definately thickened!!!

Thanks for the info, databank!

.

Prost!

nayroo2002 said:

databank said:

It may not have been Boris then, as I said it goes back to about 2006 indeed.

Clare Fisher was involved in TBODP not TSOI.

ok.

then when Mr. Fischer was involved in "The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker", the plot has definately thickened!!!

Thanks for the info, databank!

.

Prost!

You're welcome

Awesome answers! Databank, what you said is pretty much what I thought. I am so glad to get such great responses! Good info. Thanks!

if you listen to Erics compositions for Fdeluxe and his own material it's pretty clear he does his own arrangements.

Interesting snippet from Uptown magazine #35 - Article on The Family.

.

Although Prince usually had very specific ideas about what he wanted Eric to play, in some instances it was very much a collaborative effort.

Eric Leeds..

"The solos were basically left up to me. I remember the sax part on Mutiny was his. He ran over to the piano a minute and just kind of came up with a line and said, "play that," and I said, "Ok fine." Susanahs Pajamas which was the last song that we did, he had no melodic idea for at all. He said, "well here," and he just played the track and I went for it. So what ended up being what you would call the melody line was just me. This was really the first time that he'd ever worked with a musician outside of his camp. I think he was not completely sure what he was looking for yet. I had the opportunity to define what my role would be along with him because I was playing an instrument that he didn't play, which was a first for him."

TheDigitalGardener said:

Interesting snippet from Uptown magazine #35 - Article on The Family.

.

Although Prince usually had very specific ideas about what he wanted Eric to play, in some instances it was very much a collaborative effort.

Eric Leeds..

"The solos were basically left up to me. I remember the sax part on Mutiny was his. He ran over to the piano a minute and just kind of came up with a line and said, "play that," and I said, "Ok fine." Susanahs Pajamas which was the last song that we did, he had no melodic idea for at all. He said, "well here," and he just played the track and I went for it. So what ended up being what you would call the melody line was just me. This was really the first time that he'd ever worked with a musician outside of his camp. I think he was not completely sure what he was looking for yet. I had the opportunity to define what my role would be along with him because I was playing an instrument that he didn't play, which was a first for him."

Fascinating! Thanks! This is indeed why Eric got co-composer credits and royalties for the 2 intrumental tracks of that album. On a side note Prince had already used Larry Williams on sax on The Glamorous Life, which had been recorded earlier that year, but I've never read anything about how that came to happen (Williams was a quite succesful session musician who also played on Thriller and toured with Al Jarreau among other things) and I don't know how involved Prince was or if he just let Williams do whatever he wanted. Prince had also used strings a few times at this point but from my understanding he'd let Wendy & Lisa handle that, and there was also Charles Veal's strings and Patrice Rushen's keyboard contributions on For You but once again we have little info on how that happened from the creative point. So this was not truly the first time P was in the studio with someone that wasn't from his camp (we could also add his quick session on Stand Back with Stevie Nicks), but probably the first time it took such a collaborative aspect.

Out of topic, The Family was such a weird album: 2 funk tracks, 2 jazz-funk intrumentals, 2 ballads and 2 pop songs... all so melodramatic and some of it with a full orchestra It's a true masterpiece don't take me wrong, a very creative experiment, but how in the world Prince believed he could appeal to the audience of Duran Duran and other new wave acts with such an eclectic, odd mix still beats me to this day

[Edited 1/15/14 5:06am]

databank said:

Out of topic, The Family was such a weird album: 2 funk tracks, 2 jazz-funk intrumentals, 2 ballads and 2 pop songs... all so melodramatic and some of it with a full orchestra It's a true masterpiece don't take me wrong, a very creative experiment, but how in the world Prince believed he could appeal to the audience of Duran Duran and other new wave acts with such an eclectic, odd mix still beats me to this day

[Edited 1/15/14 5:06am]

Well, it has a stronger "pop" feel than his other side projects, but you're right, it was such a weird combination of styles. However, it sounds great and strangely homogeneous to my ears. It's my favourite associated artist's album, although Ingrid Chavez's would be quite near.

Javi said:

databank said:

Out of topic, The Family was such a weird album: 2 funk tracks, 2 jazz-funk intrumentals, 2 ballads and 2 pop songs... all so melodramatic and some of it with a full orchestra It's a true masterpiece don't take me wrong, a very creative experiment, but how in the world Prince believed he could appeal to the audience of Duran Duran and other new wave acts with such an eclectic, odd mix still beats me to this day

[Edited 1/15/14 5:06am]

Well, it has a stronger "pop" feel than his other side projects, but you're right, it was such a weird combination of styles. However, it sounds great and strangely homogeneous to my ears. It's my favourite associated artist's album, although Ingrid Chavez's would be quite near.

Ingrid's first album is a complete killer. It may be the best album ever released on Paisley Park.

databank said:

Javi said:

Well, it has a stronger "pop" feel than his other side projects, but you're right, it was such a weird combination of styles. However, it sounds great and strangely homogeneous to my ears. It's my favourite associated artist's album, although Ingrid Chavez's would be quite near.

Ingrid's first album is a complete killer. It may be the best album ever released on Paisley Park.

Agreed, agreed! I'm glad to find someone who thinks the same about it! Like some beloved orger would say, it's a MASTERPIECE!

Javi said:

databank said:

Ingrid's first album is a complete killer. It may be the best album ever released on Paisley Park.

Agreed, agreed! I'm glad to find someone who thinks the same about it! Like some beloved orger would say, it's a MASTERPIECE!

It was very avant-garde, it had elements of electronica and trip-hop at a time when almost exclusively UK was really starting to experiment with this genres. It's probably the only Paisley Park album that explored musical realms outside of pop, synthpop and Afro-American music. It's still a mystery to me why it's not now considered a cult album, the reason mostly being IMHO that no one knows about it save us Prince fans. It was made at the wrong place: had it been recorded in London or Bristol it would probably have drawn much more attention, but the pop and R&B oriented audiences Paisley Park Records usually had wasn't really paying attention to this kind of music.

databank said:

Javi said:

Agreed, agreed! I'm glad to find someone who thinks the same about it! Like some beloved orger would say, it's a MASTERPIECE!

It was very avant-garde, it had elements of electronica and trip-hop at a time when almost exclusively UK was really starting to experiment with this genres. It's probably the only Paisley Park album that explored musical realms outside of pop, synthpop and Afro-American music. It's still a mystery to me why it's not now considered a cult album, the reason mostly being IMHO that no one knows about it save us Prince fans. It was made at the wrong place: had it been recorded in London or Bristol it would probably have drawn much more attention, but the pop and R&B oriented audiences Paisley Park Records usually had wasn't really paying attention to this kind of music.

Yes, it's a surprise to me too why it doesn't get much attention. I think it differs from many other associated artists' albums in that collaborating with Ingrid took Prince to a different place: while you can imagine, for instance, the albums by The Time or The Family as Prince albums, performed completely by him, that's not the case with Ingrid's. I certainly can't imagine Prince recording an album like that as a Prince album, neither musically nor lyrically. It's a strange beast in Prince's catalogue, but what a fantastic beast!

-----

I've followed Ingrid's career after the Paisley Park album and I find it very interesting. There's some brilliant work with her former husband, David Sylvian, including the awesome "Remembering Julia"; then the second album, that shows her more serene and poetic side; and then what she has done recently with Marco Valentin in Black Eskimo, which is often great, with some trip hop added to electronic soul and funk. I had the pleasure to interview Ingrid for a Spanish magazine recently and I really wish her all the best: she's a beautiful and talented human being.

Javi said:

databank said:

It was very avant-garde, it had elements of electronica and trip-hop at a time when almost exclusively UK was really starting to experiment with this genres. It's probably the only Paisley Park album that explored musical realms outside of pop, synthpop and Afro-American music. It's still a mystery to me why it's not now considered a cult album, the reason mostly being IMHO that no one knows about it save us Prince fans. It was made at the wrong place: had it been recorded in London or Bristol it would probably have drawn much more attention, but the pop and R&B oriented audiences Paisley Park Records usually had wasn't really paying attention to this kind of music.

Yes, it's a surprise to me too why it doesn't get much attention. I think it differs from many other associated artists' albums in that collaborating with Ingrid took Prince to a different place: while you can imagine, for instance, the albums by The Time or The Family as Prince albums, performed completely by him, that's not the case with Ingrid's. I certainly can't imagine Prince recording an album like that as a Prince album, neither musically nor lyrically. It's a strange beast in Prince's catalogue, but what a fantastic beast!

-----

I've followed Ingrid's career after the Paisley Park album and I find it very interesting. There's some brilliant work with her former husband, David Sylvian, including the awesome "Remembering Julia"; then the second album, that shows her more serene and poetic side; and then what she has done recently with Marco Valentin in Black Eskimo, which is often great, with some trip hop added to electronic soul and funk. I had the pleasure to interview Ingrid for a Spanish magazine recently and I really wish her all the best: she's a beautiful and talented human being.

Let's also give credits to Michael Koppleman and (on one song) Levi who took things where Prince had left them and finished the album while keeping exactly the same musical style in such a way that the non-Prince songs are in no way inferior to the Prince songs (quite rare an event).

I followed what happened after that too and I love her second album (haven't heard the Sylvian songs in a while but I remember liking them as well). As Black Eskimo I only seen the music video and wasn't so convinced but I'll definitely give it another shot and listen to the rest of it one of these days.

Glad to hear she's a cool gal, I can't say y but some reason I had the feeling that she may be a very cold and distant person. I have no idea why, just an impression I've always had about her (and, incidentally, I've always had the same impression about David Sylvian )

databank said:

Javi said:

Yes, it's a surprise to me too why it doesn't get much attention. I think it differs from many other associated artists' albums in that collaborating with Ingrid took Prince to a different place: while you can imagine, for instance, the albums by The Time or The Family as Prince albums, performed completely by him, that's not the case with Ingrid's. I certainly can't imagine Prince recording an album like that as a Prince album, neither musically nor lyrically. It's a strange beast in Prince's catalogue, but what a fantastic beast!

-----

I've followed Ingrid's career after the Paisley Park album and I find it very interesting. There's some brilliant work with her former husband, David Sylvian, including the awesome "Remembering Julia"; then the second album, that shows her more serene and poetic side; and then what she has done recently with Marco Valentin in Black Eskimo, which is often great, with some trip hop added to electronic soul and funk. I had the pleasure to interview Ingrid for a Spanish magazine recently and I really wish her all the best: she's a beautiful and talented human being.

Let's also give credits to Michael Koppleman and (on one song) Levi who took things where Prince had left them and finished the album while keeping exactly the same musical style in such a way that the non-Prince songs are in no way inferior to the Prince songs (quite rare an event).

I followed what happened after that too and I love her second album (haven't heard the Sylvian songs in a while but I remember liking them as well). As Black Eskimo I only seen the music video and wasn't so convinced but I'll definitely give it another shot and listen to the rest of it one of these days.

Glad to hear she's a cool gal, I can't say y but some reason I had the feeling that she may be a very cold and distant person. I have no idea why, just an impression I've always had about her (and, incidentally, I've always had the same impression about David Sylvian )

Yes, especially Koppelman was fundamental too. I read on Matt Thorne's book that Prince got really angry after listening to "Hippy Blood". Michael asked him why he was angry, if it was because he didn't like what he had heard, and Prince answered something like: "No, I love it. It's gonna change the future of music". So, Prince was jealous indeed!

Javi said:

databank said:

Let's also give credits to Michael Koppleman and (on one song) Levi who took things where Prince had left them and finished the album while keeping exactly the same musical style in such a way that the non-Prince songs are in no way inferior to the Prince songs (quite rare an event).

I followed what happened after that too and I love her second album (haven't heard the Sylvian songs in a while but I remember liking them as well). As Black Eskimo I only seen the music video and wasn't so convinced but I'll definitely give it another shot and listen to the rest of it one of these days.

Glad to hear she's a cool gal, I can't say y but some reason I had the feeling that she may be a very cold and distant person. I have no idea why, just an impression I've always had about her (and, incidentally, I've always had the same impression about David Sylvian )

Yes, especially Koppelman was fundamental too. I read on Matt Thorne's book that Prince got really angry after listening to "Hippy Blood". Michael asked him why he was angry, if it was because he didn't like what he had heard, and Prince answered something like: "No, I love it. It's gonna change the future of music". So, Prince was jealous indeed!

Wow! Well Prince was right in the sense that even though the song was too unnoticed to change the future of music, it was pretty much announcing what the future of music would be! That's probably why Prince decided to remix that particular song!

So there are things we didn't already know in that Matt Thorne book???

databank said:

Javi said:

Yes, especially Koppelman was fundamental too. I read on Matt Thorne's book that Prince got really angry after listening to "Hippy Blood". Michael asked him why he was angry, if it was because he didn't like what he had heard, and Prince answered something like: "No, I love it. It's gonna change the future of music". So, Prince was jealous indeed!

Wow! Well Prince was right in the sense that even though the song was too unnoticed to change the future of music, it was pretty much announcing what the future of music would be! That's probably why Prince decided to remix that particular song!

So there are things we didn't already know in that Matt Thorne book???

I've only glanced over it. The only parts I read in detail are those related to Ingrid, in order to prepare my article and interview. But, judging from what I read there, there may well be things we don't know. The book looks well. The publishers try to sell it as the Revolution In The Head of Prince's work. That's probably too much, but I do think it may be a very relevant book.

-----

What I didn't know is that Prince had remixed "Hippy Blood". I don't have the maxi single, I only have "Elephant Box". I think I'll buy it.

-----

Another thing Matt Thorne says is that Michael Koppelman thought Ingrid's album had many chances of being successful in France, but that Warner didn't put any effort in promoting it. What do you think? Had the album any impact in France? In Spain not much, but there was a very important radio broadcast in which "Elephant Box" was played constantly. The radio announcer said that Diamonds And Pearls showed Prince's most commercial side and Ingrid's album his most experimental one. That was quite right. I was fourteen years old back then and both Diamonds And Pearls and Ingrid's album made a huge impact on me. Ah, I'm getting nostalgic!

Javi said:

databank said:

Wow! Well Prince was right in the sense that even though the song was too unnoticed to change the future of music, it was pretty much announcing what the future of music would be! That's probably why Prince decided to remix that particular song!

So there are things we didn't already know in that Matt Thorne book???

I've only glanced over it. The only parts I read in detail are those related to Ingrid, in order to prepare my article and interview. But, judging from what I read there, there may well be things we don't know. The book looks well. The publishers try to sell it as the Revolution In The Head of Prince's work. That's probably too much, but I do think it may be a very relevant book.

-----

What I didn't know is that Prince had remixed "Hippy Blood". I don't have the maxi single, I only have "Elephant Box". I think I'll buy it.

-----

Another thing Matt Thorne says is that Michael Koppelman thought Ingrid's album had many chances of being successful in France, but that Warner didn't put any effort in promoting it. What do you think? Had the album any impact in France? In Spain not much, but there was a very important radio broadcast in which "Elephant Box" was played constantly. The radio announcer said that Diamonds And Pearls showed Prince's most commercial side and Ingrid's album his most experimental one. That was quite right. I was fourteen years old back then and both Diamonds And Pearls and Ingrid's album made a huge impact on me. Ah, I'm getting nostalgic!

It was totally ingored in France. Mainstream radios didn't play it. The 2 TV music channels we had didn't play the videos. I remember one short review in a music magazine and it's possible that they were a few other reviews here and there because Paisley Park albums usually drew some attention from music critics back then, but the general public wasn't aware of the album's existence. I think it could have been succesful if properly promoted: the birth of the electronica scene allowed some weird things to appear in the charts every once in a while and when you come to think of it, the success of songs like Batdance, Pump Up The Volume and Theme From S'Express was quite shocking considereing how experimental these tracks were (they were quite the opposite of a traditionnal pop song!). Enigma, whose work was very close to Ingrid's, had a major success at leat in France. But by 1991 WB had lost all interest in what Paisley Park was doing: the only records they really invested time and money in were Romance 1600 because of Sheila's first album's success, Jill Jones at least in Europe (I don't know why but it seems they believed in it and Mia Bocca was a minor hit indeed), Taja Sevelle because it was part of the relaunch of Reprise Records, Pandemonium (in the US only) because of the band's past success and the fact that it was now a supergroup (Day, Johnson, Jam & Lewis) and Carmen Electra because Prince insisted so much on them doing it (but the funny thing is that at least in France NO ONE ever heard of that record so IDK where the 2 millions they alledgelly put in promoting that album went). Everything else that label ever released was left to die in record stores.

[Edited 1/17/14 4:20am]

^ By the way, another thing I read in Thorne's book. Prince had abandoned Ingrid's project and devoted himself to the great Carmen Electra, and he defied Alan Leeds, telling him something like: "I'm gonna sell more with Carmen than you with Ingrid". Poor Princey... He was probably right, but poor Princey anyway.

And I agree with what you say about the album having chances of selling well had it been promoted rightly. The context of the early nineties was not so alien to music like Ingrid's, and the case of Enigma makes it quite clear.