It seems no coincidence that around 1994 the phone calls stopped ringing for Prince to help write or produce for outside artists. He was a laughing stock to the industry and the hits were drying up, but he was still pretty in demand in the early 90 's, and I really like some of the work he did for others too. I think Mayte's album was the nail in the coffin for any record exec to ask Prince to do a song for their client LOL.

Anyway how do you rate his work from around 1990-Mayte's album.

For example I really like the work he did for Tevin Campbell. True, at times you can hear Tevin just singing Prince's guide vocals ("Halls of desire" for is a particular example), but he does add his own thing to them too.

Carmen's work with Prince was pretty good considering how much work they did together. Prince had the right idea on cashing in on the pop rap craze. But the albums delay was costly, as the artists she was competing against like Vanilla Ice and Marky Mark, were finished by 1992 when the album finally dropped! I heard he had the album ready in 1991 and if released then it could of sprung a hit! Honestly LOL

Ironically, a few of my fav Carmen songs were never released. "Power from above" and "Go Carmen go" are much better then most of her album, as is the funky "The Juice".

Even Tevins outtake "The P" (sung by Prince), is great too! I can just imagine Quincy Jones' face hearing that track submitted for Tevin's album LOL.

So anyway, what do you think of Prince's output for others in the early 90's?

[Edited 10/24/13 18:37pm]

the music on the Carmen Elektra album is great.He and the NPG came up with some kickass grooves.The problem is,her rapping is unconvincing and she's not really much of a vocalist,either.Still,"Fantasia Erotica" is a good song that should have gotten some attention in the clubs.

I was pleasantly surprised by the Ingrid Chavez album.It's moody,hypnotic and inviting.Her spoken poetry works well over the laidback grooves.

Surprised no-one's mentioned his work with Martika. LTWBD and MK are both first-rate imo. Great work.

Shhh was one of the highlights of Tevin's 1993 album too. I remember Jodeci singing it live in 1995.

You guys are hardcore though. I never heard any of these other songs you're talking about.

I am particularly impressed with the Mavis Staples albums she did with Prince. Using Mavis' vocal stylings was brilliant because it let a whole new generation hear her voice (no pun intended) and allowed for a credibility missing from the emerging r-n-b format. In a way, it was almost like hearing what Tina Turner might sound like if she were produced by Prince. I think Mavis contributed to the late 80's/early 90's Prince era well because she wasn't over-produced and her gospel, "voice of experience" was used well. It was like she was just as good for him, as he was for her. (And I only wish they'd collaborate again.)

thesexofit said:

It seems no coincidence that around 1994 the phone calls stopped ringing for Prince to help write or produce for outside artists. He was a laughing stock to the industry and the hits were drying up, but he was still pretty in demand in the early 90 's, and I really like some of the work he did for others too. I think Mayte's album was the nail in the coffin for any record exec to ask Prince to do a song for their client LOL.

I don't think anybody but the hardcore fans knew about the Mayte album, much less heard it. I would say that the whole battle with WB, symbol name, slave thing had more to do with Prince being a "laughing stock to the industry", than Child Of The Sun.

That said, I kinda dig: However Much U Want, Mo' Better, Ain't No Place Like U and even the cover of Brick House.

I think he's writing R&B/pop stuff specifically to be commercial. Things like Standing At The Altar and Hold Me, My Tender Heart - this kind of thing is very slick and schmaltzy (not a knock) and polished, often specifically designed for female singers. They sound designed for contemporary adult R&B radio.

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I would look at specific projects he has, like Carmen Electra, the NPG as separate to just sending a song or two here or there to odd artists (Joe Cocker?!) because they requested a song or were sent a tape of material to choose from etc, however it works in each case. I guess people like Mavis Staples and Tevin Campbell are the bridge between the two in as much Prince contributed a signifcant slab to each album, but they are not fully under his control and just Prince albums by another name.

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The old fashioned protege projects like Carmen and NPG (updates of Vanity 6/The Time ideas) are just as commercially driven given that they are Prince exploring hip-hop and more modern genres. So I guess I'm saying in the early 90s Prince was looking to his song writing for other artists in a more savy way, not always just exploring his own creative juices and wants, but crafting material that would appeal to a wide audience outside his existing one.

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[Edited 10/27/13 9:01am]

thesexofit said:

It seems no coincidence that around 1994 the phone calls stopped ringing for Prince to help write or produce for outside artists. He was a laughing stock to the industry and the hits were drying up.

I tried to do some research about that and could never find any reliable information about what happened exactly in 1994, so what follows is only my personal opinion, but I am convinced that the phone didn't stop ringing but that Prince stopped answering. Let's just pause a few seconds and think.

By 1993 Prince was still one of the hottest songwriters in the industry: that year alone he composed songs for Monie Love, Candy Dulfer, Earth Wind & Fire, Tevin Campbell, Louie Louie and The Steeles + his guest appearance on a Kate Bush album and his own Paisley Park protégés which included George Clinton and Mavis Staples. The year before that it was Céline Dion, Howard Hewitt, Joe Cocker, El Debarge, Lois Lane, and actually every year ever since the mid-80's had been hot in terms of songs given to others, including quite a number of big guns. Then in 1994... NOTHING. Not just one or 2 artists: NOTHING AT ALL!

For one thing it's true that the music industry was quite in a big WTF state of mind regarding Prince and his name change and the WB wars, but he was still considered a major force in the industry: he had made bick bucks with TMBGITW and it was quite likely that Love Sign would have been a summer hit if the single had been allowed. P was still making the hype, and his music was still making big bucks when properly promoted, + his stand against WB may have been unpopular among execs but it actually got him a lot of respect from fellow artists. There's just no fucking way that ALL OF A SUDDEN, Prince, one of the most sought after songwriters in 1993, was blacklisted everywhere.

+ there's another thing: since the early 2000's Prince is again considered a financial success and a iconic songwriter: how come all these guys who claim Prince is their biggest influence didn't ask him to write them a song? Isn't it odd???

NOW there's another explaination that makes much more sense to me: basically in late 1993 Prince decided that he wanted to own his music and its masters and let no one else have it. Who do you think owns the masters to all these songs Prince gave to other artists? The record companies! Sony owns Manic Monday and Love... Thy Will Be Done, WB owns Super Hero and The Halls Of Desire, EMI owns Sugar Walls, etc. How could Prince decline to give his own music to his own record company and give them and other labels he had nothing to do with the right to own songs he was giving others? It wouldn't have made much sense, would it?

So my guess, for what it's worth, is that in 1994 Prince let the record industry know that he wasn't interested anymore in writing songs for others unless he was allowed to own the masters, and that was the end of the story.

databank said:

thesexofit said:

It seems no coincidence that around 1994 the phone calls stopped ringing for Prince to help write or produce for outside artists. He was a laughing stock to the industry and the hits were drying up.

I tried to do some research about that and could never find any reliable information about what happened exactly in 1994, so what follows is only my personal opinion, but I am convinced that the phone didn't stop ringing but that Prince stopped answering. Let's just pause a few seconds and think.

By 1993 Prince was still one of the hottest songwriters in the industry: that year alone he composed songs for Monie Love, Candy Dulfer, Earth Wind & Fire, Tevin Campbell, Louie Louie and The Steeles + his guest appearance on a Kate Bush album and his own Paisley Park protégés which included George Clinton and Mavis Staples. The year before that it was Céline Dion, Howard Hewitt, Joe Cocker, El Debarge, Lois Lane, and actually every year ever since the mid-80's had been hot in terms of songs given to others, including quite a number of big guns. Then in 1994... NOTHING. Not just one or 2 artists: NOTHING AT ALL!

For one thing it's true that the music industry was quite in a big WTF state of mind regarding Prince and his name change and the WB wars, but he was still considered a major force in the industry: he had made bick bucks with TMBGITW and it was quite likely that Love Sign would have been a summer hit if the single had been allowed. P was still making the hype, and his music was still making big bucks when properly promoted, + his stand against WB may have been unpopular among execs but it actually got him a lot of respect from fellow artists. There's just no fucking way that ALL OF A SUDDEN, Prince, one of the most sought after songwriters in 1993, was blacklisted everywhere.

+ there's another thing: since the early 2000's Prince is again considered a financial success and a iconic songwriter: how come all these guys who claim Prince is their biggest influence didn't ask him to write them a song? Isn't it odd???

NOW there's another explaination that makes much more sense to me: basically in late 1993 Prince decided that he wanted to own his music and its masters and let no one else have it. Who do you think owns the masters to all these songs Prince gave to other artists? The record companies! Sony owns Manic Monday and Love... Thy Will Be Done, WB owns Super Hero and The Halls Of Desire, EMI owns Sugar Walls, etc. How could Prince decline to give his own music to his own record company and give them and other labels he had nothing to do with the right to own songs he was giving others? It wouldn't have made much sense, would it?

So my guess, for what it's worth, is that in 1994 Prince let the record industry know that he wasn't interested anymore in writing songs for others unless he was allowed to own the masters, and that was the end of the story.

Logical and well thought out... You may have the answer right here.

Makes much more sense than the "Mayte CD Theory".

djThunderfunk said:

databank said:

I tried to do some research about that and could never find any reliable information about what happened exactly in 1994, so what follows is only my personal opinion, but I am convinced that the phone didn't stop ringing but that Prince stopped answering. Let's just pause a few seconds and think.

By 1993 Prince was still one of the hottest songwriters in the industry: that year alone he composed songs for Monie Love, Candy Dulfer, Earth Wind & Fire, Tevin Campbell, Louie Louie and The Steeles + his guest appearance on a Kate Bush album and his own Paisley Park protégés which included George Clinton and Mavis Staples. The year before that it was Céline Dion, Howard Hewitt, Joe Cocker, El Debarge, Lois Lane, and actually every year ever since the mid-80's had been hot in terms of songs given to others, including quite a number of big guns. Then in 1994... NOTHING. Not just one or 2 artists: NOTHING AT ALL!

For one thing it's true that the music industry was quite in a big WTF state of mind regarding Prince and his name change and the WB wars, but he was still considered a major force in the industry: he had made bick bucks with TMBGITW and it was quite likely that Love Sign would have been a summer hit if the single had been allowed. P was still making the hype, and his music was still making big bucks when properly promoted, + his stand against WB may have been unpopular among execs but it actually got him a lot of respect from fellow artists. There's just no fucking way that ALL OF A SUDDEN, Prince, one of the most sought after songwriters in 1993, was blacklisted everywhere.

+ there's another thing: since the early 2000's Prince is again considered a financial success and a iconic songwriter: how come all these guys who claim Prince is their biggest influence didn't ask him to write them a song? Isn't it odd???

NOW there's another explaination that makes much more sense to me: basically in late 1993 Prince decided that he wanted to own his music and its masters and let no one else have it. Who do you think owns the masters to all these songs Prince gave to other artists? The record companies! Sony owns Manic Monday and Love... Thy Will Be Done, WB owns Super Hero and The Halls Of Desire, EMI owns Sugar Walls, etc. How could Prince decline to give his own music to his own record company and give them and other labels he had nothing to do with the right to own songs he was giving others? It wouldn't have made much sense, would it?

So my guess, for what it's worth, is that in 1994 Prince let the record industry know that he wasn't interested anymore in writing songs for others unless he was allowed to own the masters, and that was the end of the story.

Logical and well thought out... You may have the answer right here.

Makes much more sense than the "Mayte CD Theory".

Well, anyway Child Of The Sun got a very limited release in Europe only, I doubt any exec in the American music industry even ever heard that album, + it was released in late 1995, and by that time Prince hadn't given a song to anyone for almost 2 years (except for Rosie, but I guess he allowed her to "sell" these 2 songs' masters to Motown as a courtesy: he owed her at least that after the WB wars had cost her her record deal with Paisley Park/WB).

djThunderfunk said:

thesexofit said:

It seems no coincidence that around 1994 the phone calls stopped ringing for Prince to help write or produce for outside artists. He was a laughing stock to the industry and the hits were drying up, but he was still pretty in demand in the early 90 's, and I really like some of the work he did for others too. I think Mayte's album was the nail in the coffin for any record exec to ask Prince to do a song for their client LOL.

I don't think anybody but the hardcore fans knew about the Mayte album, much less heard it. I would say that the whole battle with WB, symbol name, slave thing had more to do with Prince being a "laughing stock to the industry", than Child Of The Sun.

That said, I kinda dig: However Much U Want, Mo' Better, Ain't No Place Like U and even the cover of Brick House.

Oh i'd missed that one: we came to the same conclusion. Child Of the Sun, with proper marketing, could probably have been appealing to mass audiences (unlike Carmen Electra which was doomed to be a flop by its very nature): the songs u name, as well as If I Love U 2Night, are decent R&B tracks that could appeal to the casual R&B listener. Of course there were Rythm Of Your Heart and Children Of The Sun: these 2 tracks à la Carmen Electra are enough to ruin the whole album's commercial appeal, but hell...

Gold Nigga, while probably too "organic" to appeal to mass audiences, could have received a strong critical acclaim IMHO: Guru's Jazzmatazz was released the same year and the jazz/hip-hop fusion, which so far hadn't been done much save Miles Davis and US3 in 92, was considered very daring. Of course Jazzmatazz puts jazz/funk elements on hip-hop beats while Gold Nigga does the opposite, and IMHO my generation (I was 16 at the time) wasn't so receptive to funk/jazz beats even with rap over it. The following year Brooklyn Funk Essential didn't have much of a commerical success but got critical acclaim with their first LP, and the same again in 1995 with Buckshot LeFonque's first album. Gold Nigga could have made history alongside these albums... except no one but us knew it was out there

databank said:

djThunderfunk said:

I don't think anybody but the hardcore fans knew about the Mayte album, much less heard it. I would say that the whole battle with WB, symbol name, slave thing had more to do with Prince being a "laughing stock to the industry", than Child Of The Sun.

That said, I kinda dig: However Much U Want, Mo' Better, Ain't No Place Like U and even the cover of Brick House.

Oh i'd missed that one: we came to the same conclusion. Child Of the Sun, with proper marketing, could probably have been appealing to mass audiences (unlike Carmen Electra which was doomed to be a flop by its very nature): the songs u name, as well as If I Love U 2Night, are decent R&B tracks that could appeal to the casual R&B listener. Of course there were Rythm Of Your Heart and Children Of The Sun: these 2 tracks à la Carmen Electra are enough to ruin the whole album's commercial appeal, but hell...

Gold Nigga, while probably too "organic" to appeal to mass audiences, could have received a strong critical acclaim IMHO: Guru's Jazzmatazz was released the same year and the jazz/hip-hop fusion, which so far hadn't been done much save Miles Davis and US3 in 92, was considered very daring. Of course Jazzmatazz puts jazz/funk elements on hip-hop beats while Gold Nigga does the opposite, and IMHO my generation (I was 16 at the time) wasn't so receptive to funk/jazz beats even with rap over it. The following year Brooklyn Funk Essential didn't have much of a commerical success but got critical acclaim with their first LP, and the same again in 1995 with Buckshot LeFonque's first album. Gold Nigga could have made history alongside these albums... except no one but us knew it was out there

Jazzmatazz is fantastic! The 2 or 3 sequels to it are pretty good, too. I would also recommend Brand New Heavies' Heavy Rhyme Experience...

FormerlyKnownAs said:

I am particularly impressed with the Mavis Staples albums she did with Prince. Using Mavis' vocal stylings was brilliant because it let a whole new generation hear her voice (no pun intended) and allowed for a credibility missing from the emerging r-n-b format. In a way, it was almost like hearing what Tina Turner might sound like if she were produced by Prince. I think Mavis contributed to the late 80's/early 90's Prince era well because she wasn't over-produced and her gospel, "voice of experience" was used well. It was like she was just as good for him, as he was for her. (And I only wish they'd collaborate again.)

I don't have "the voice" album, but as for "time waits for no one", I found a few of the Prince tracks abit uninspired personally. I was hoping for more uptempo stuff like "melody cool" (which I heard before this album), but alas, I remember most of the album being mid tempo. Infact, the few tracks not done by Prince are my favs ("20th century express" "the old songs"), along with the lovely title track. Maybe I need to give it a re-listen?

I love the track "the voice" itself. I have it on bootleg. Was Tony M's rap taken off the official alblum version? Any reasoning for this?

Good point about Tina Turner. She did work with Andre Cymone on the glossy AOR track "Break through the barriers". It's a lovely track if you like that sort of thing (which I do), and proves Andre could branch out as a producer if only given the chance....

databank said:

djThunderfunk said:

Logical and well thought out... You may have the answer right here.

Makes much more sense than the "Mayte CD Theory".

Well, anyway Child Of The Sun got a very limited release in Europe only, I doubt any exec in the American music industry even ever heard that album, + it was released in late 1995, and by that time Prince hadn't given a song to anyone for almost 2 years (except for Rosie, but I guess he allowed her to "sell" these 2 songs' masters to Motown as a courtesy: he owed her at least that after the WB wars had cost her her record deal with Paisley Park/WB).

You make good points. Maybe he did get obsessed about giving artists his songs for fear of owning the masters, but he was a huge laughing stock no question, and I still think the phone calls stopped ringing as by 1994 he was seen as difficult and a general pain in the ass. Plus, as I said, the hits were drying up.

Anyway, anyone have the Louie Louie tracks? One of the last outside projects he worked on.

The track "Get Blue" has odd credits. Is there a boot with Prince's guide vocals floating about? The credits state Paisley Park produced it, but none of the session instrumentalists are from Prince's camp? It's a catchy slowjam and a shame it wasn't released as a single.

As for the other track off louie's album, "Dance unto the rhythm", again, despite being produced by Paisley Park (and again vocal production by Louie himself), the session guys bar Rosie Gaines are not Prince's people? It's got to be one of the least inspired tracks Prince has ever worked on for someone else. I swear it's only on the album in some sort of deal that to aquire "Get Blue", you had to take "Dance unto the rhythm" aswell. The outtake with Prince on vocal called "Hey, Louie Louie" was better than this track, and thats saying something LOL

thesexofit said:

FormerlyKnownAs said:

I am particularly impressed with the Mavis Staples albums she did with Prince. Using Mavis' vocal stylings was brilliant because it let a whole new generation hear her voice (no pun intended) and allowed for a credibility missing from the emerging r-n-b format. In a way, it was almost like hearing what Tina Turner might sound like if she were produced by Prince. I think Mavis contributed to the late 80's/early 90's Prince era well because she wasn't over-produced and her gospel, "voice of experience" was used well. It was like she was just as good for him, as he was for her. (And I only wish they'd collaborate again.)

I don't have "the voice" album, but as for "time waits for no one", I found a few of the Prince tracks abit uninspired personally. I was hoping for more uptempo stuff like "melody cool" (which I heard before this album), but alas, I remember most of the album being mid tempo. Infact, the few tracks not done by Prince are my favs ("20th century express" "the old songs"), along with the lovely title track. Maybe I need to give it a re-listen?

I love the track "the voice" itself. I have it on bootleg. Was Tony M's rap taken off the official alblum version? Any reasoning for this?

Good point about Tina Turner. She did work with Andre Cymone on the glossy AOR track "Break through the barriers". It's a lovely track if you like that sort of thing (which I do), and proves Andre could branch out as a producer if only given the chance....

Had no idea she'd work with André. What's "AOR"? On which album is that song?

Tony's rap wasn't edited for the album, it was added to the album version for a maxi remix, it never had any business being on the album. It was officially released, though, but it's so rare that it ended-up on boots.

thesexofit said:

databank said:

Well, anyway Child Of The Sun got a very limited release in Europe only, I doubt any exec in the American music industry even ever heard that album, + it was released in late 1995, and by that time Prince hadn't given a song to anyone for almost 2 years (except for Rosie, but I guess he allowed her to "sell" these 2 songs' masters to Motown as a courtesy: he owed her at least that after the WB wars had cost her her record deal with Paisley Park/WB).

You make good points. Maybe he did get obsessed about giving artists his songs for fear of owning the masters, but he was a huge laughing stock no question, and I still think the phone calls stopped ringing as by 1994 he was seen as difficult and a general pain in the ass. Plus, as I said, the hits were drying up.

Anyway, anyone have the Louie Louie tracks? One of the last outside projects he worked on.

The track "Get Blue" has odd credits. Is there a boot with Prince's guide vocals floating about? The credits state Paisley Park produced it, but none of the session instrumentalists are from Prince's camp? It's a catchy slowjam and a shame it wasn't released as a single.

As for the other track off louie's album, "Dance unto the rhythm", again, despite being produced by Paisley Park (and again vocal production by Louie himself), the session guys bar Rosie Gaines are not Prince's people? It's got to be one of the least inspired tracks Prince has ever worked on for someone else. I swear it's only on the album in some sort of deal that to aquire "Get Blue", you had to take "Dance unto the rhythm" aswell. The outtake with Prince on vocal called "Hey, Louie Louie" was better than this track, and thats saying something LOL

Prince's version of get Blue is circulating.

Dance Un2 The Rythm is a disaster indeed. The session guys aren't from P's camp because the song was overdubbed by Louie Louie at the same time he recorded the vocals. This was common practice: Martika's songs, for example, or Sheena's Eternity, have been overdubbed by them after P sent his tapes. There are many other examples.

You need to put things in perspective from a professionnal point of view: Prince was a pain in the ass when it came to working with his own label over his own projects. When he'd sent tapes to others he never got involved in the process: he'd send a song and the artist would be free to toy with it as they pleased: some only rerecorded the vovals, some added some overdubs or edited down some parts, and some chose to rerecord it completely so it'd fit with the overall sound of the album. Prince never was involved in that part, all he'd do is provide a song. He had no business being involved in the song's promotion once released either, and he never made a comment about the final released version either as far as we know. So actually it was pretty comfortable working with him in that way: because of both his reluctence to "collaborate" with people and the fact that he'd sign a contract saying that once given, the song wasn't "his" anymore, he absolutely had no way to bother anyone. As for him being a laughing stock once again it has little to do with it: execs are about profit and a Prince song could still be a good addition to an album. + usually the ARTISTS would ask Prince for a song, not the producers, and believe me Prince got a lot of respect for his stand on artistic freedom when it came to musicians themselves. So I keep saying there is no apparent reason that the phone would stop ringing.

databank said:

thesexofit said:

I don't have "the voice" album, but as for "time waits for no one", I found a few of the Prince tracks abit uninspired personally. I was hoping for more uptempo stuff like "melody cool" (which I heard before this album), but alas, I remember most of the album being mid tempo. Infact, the few tracks not done by Prince are my favs ("20th century express" "the old songs"), along with the lovely title track. Maybe I need to give it a re-listen?

I love the track "the voice" itself. I have it on bootleg. Was Tony M's rap taken off the official alblum version? Any reasoning for this?

Good point about Tina Turner. She did work with Andre Cymone on the glossy AOR track "Break through the barriers". It's a lovely track if you like that sort of thing (which I do), and proves Andre could branch out as a producer if only given the chance....

Had no idea she'd work with André. What's "AOR"? On which album is that song?

Tony's rap wasn't edited for the album, it was added to the album version for a maxi remix, it never had any business being on the album. It was officially released, though, but it's so rare that it ended-up on boots.

Oh yeah sorry, the Tina Turner track is called "Break through the barrier" and it's from the "Days of thunder" OST:

Not sure if it was specifically written for the movie or not. I would harbour a guess and say "not likely", as her "Foreign affair" album was released around that time. Probably just an album outtake, but does beg the question if they ever worked on more than just this song?

Iam geeky enough to notice a little keyboard riff was sampled directly from another Andre production by James Ingram ("better day").

Thanks for the info on how those sessions went down.