... sign with small labels as soon as they'd lost their deal with a major record company?

I mean Wendy & Lisa, André Cymone, Jesse Johnson, Morris Day, Bobby Z., BrownMark, Apollonia and Vanity among others were all signed with big labels in the 80's, then lost it when the trend changed, but seriously: these people had an audience, they were certain 2 sell at least 50,000 or 100,000 copies of any album they'd release! Many small labels would actually KILL to have an artist who'd sell 50,000 records. These figures are ridiculous for majors, but they're more than most small labels ever achieve!

So how do you explain that these people, as well as old Paisley Park acts such as Taja Sevelle or Jill Jones, stayed without a contract for YEARS after losing their first deal, and didn't manage to release other (if any) records? You'd think small labels would have FOUGHT 2 get them!

That's a good question.

Taja signed with Reprise in the early 90s and she released an album called 'Toys Of Vanity'.This was the first single:

"Trouble Having You Near" by Taja Sevelle (1991)

I heard that Jill Jones wasn't able to get out of her Paisley Park recording contract for seven years,a situation that effectively stalled her career.During that time,she worked as a backup singer for Chic.

Jesse Johnson released an album in 1996 'Bare My Naked Soul' on a small independent label.Just last year,he released 'Verbal Penetration'.

Didn't Wendy and Lisa release a few albums independently,as well?

SoulAlive said:

That's a good question.

Taja signed with Reprise in the early 90s and she released an album called 'Toys Of Vanity'.This was the first single:

"Trouble Having You Near" by Taja Sevelle (1991)

You confuse Fountain Free (1991), which was actually a continuation of her Paisley Park deal (Reprise was another Warner imprint) and Toys Of Vanity, released on Sony in 1998 after WB had "thanked" her.

FF was a very average dance album, with a generic sound. TOV, on the other hand, is a really impressive pop album, with deep lyrics and a real atmosphe to it. Unfortunately both albums flopped and that was the end of her (save a self-released EP around 2001).

SoulAlive said:

Jesse Johnson released an album in 1996 'Bare My Naked Soul' on a small independent label.Just last year,he released 'Verbal Penetration'.

Didn't Wendy and Lisa release a few albums independently,as well?

They released one in 1998 (as "Girl Bros.") and one in 2008, but both were self-produced and self-released.

SoulAlive said:

Jesse Johnson released an album in 1996 'Bare My Naked Soul' on a small independent label.Just last year,he released 'Verbal Penetration'.

Didn't Wendy and Lisa release a few albums independently,as well?

As for Jesse, you are right, but that's ONE independant label album EIGHT years after the termination of his A&M contract, and then ONE other album THIRTEEN year after the first one, and if I ain't mistaken, Verbal Penetration is self-released (?).

SoulAlive said:

I heard that Jill Jones wasn't able to get out of her Paisley Park recording contract for seven years,a situation that effectively stalled her career.During that time,she worked as a backup singer for Chic.

I didn't know that. This might xplain her situation at least.

databank said:

SoulAlive said:

That's a good question.

Taja signed with Reprise in the early 90s and she released an album called 'Toys Of Vanity'.This was the first single:

"Trouble Having You Near" by Taja Sevelle (1991)

You confuse Fountain Free (1991), which was actually a continuation of her Paisley Park deal (Reprise was another Warner imprint) and Toys Of Vanity, released on Sony in 1998 after WB had "thanked" her.

FF was a very average dance album, with a generic sound. TOV, on the other hand, is a really impressive pop album, with deep lyrics and a real atmosphe to it. Unfortunately both albums flopped and that was the end of her (save a self-released EP around 2001).

Oh,you're right,I got those two albums mixed up

databank said:

SoulAlive said:

Jesse Johnson released an album in 1996 'Bare My Naked Soul' on a small independent label.Just last year,he released 'Verbal Penetration'.

Didn't Wendy and Lisa release a few albums independently,as well?

As for Jesse, you are right, but that's ONE independant label album EIGHT years after the termination of his A&M contract, and then ONE other album THIRTEEN year after the first one, and if I ain't mistaken, Verbal Penetration is self-released (?).

It's a shame that Jesse didn't make more albums.

I'm not sure, but I think it would come down to some combination of these...

1) Didn't most of them get big-label deals that probably locked them in until well after their shelf lives? I'm not sure I understand why they'd want to go with an indie when they could have a major label deal.

2) After about 1986, none of them were very much in demand at all, and without Prince involvement, the demand for them dropped even more. Even the most successful associated artist, Sheila E., had incredibly dismal sales for her post-Prince solo album Sex Cymbal. I don't think it managed to sell the 50,000-100,000 copies you mention in the OP (although I have no idea, so that's just speculation on my part).

3) They weren't indie artists and would need to get into the Sam Goodys, Musiclands, etc. at that time in order to reach their intended audience. Would an indie label really be able to get them into those stores in a significant way?

4) Back to Sheila E.: She did the indie route, didn't she? I thought her two jazz albums were indie-released and didn't do too well.

Efan said:

I'm not sure, but I think it would come down to some combination of these...

1) Didn't most of them get big-label deals that probably locked them in until well after their shelf lives? I'm not sure I understand why they'd want to go with an indie when they could have a major label deal.

2) After about 1986, none of them were very much in demand at all, and without Prince involvement, the demand for them dropped even more. Even the most successful associated artist, Sheila E., had incredibly dismal sales for her post-Prince solo album Sex Cymbal. I don't think it managed to sell the 50,000-100,000 copies you mention in the OP (although I have no idea, so that's just speculation on my part).

3) They weren't indie artists and would need to get into the Sam Goodys, Musiclands, etc. at that time in order to reach their intended audience. Would an indie label really be able to get them into those stores in a significant way?

4) Back to Sheila E.: She did the indie route, didn't she? I thought her two jazz albums were indie-released and didn't do too well.

How could I forget Sheila?

Same story, though: 2 albums released TEN years after her WB deal ended and then nothing again.

I really don't know about the sales figures, but what I know is that (at least in Europe) some indy labels are just SO happy when they manage to sell 10,000 or 20,000 copies of a record, so you know... Most of the artists above would always sell more than a new band no one ever heard of, wouldn't they?

It's indeed possible that some artists were stuck in contracts with their label, contracts which prevents them to release any music elsewhere, but doesn't force their label to release their music either: it's quite common in the music industry.

As for the distribution deals, any DECENT independant label manages to be distributed elsewhere (i found Sheila's indie records, as well as the Girl Bros. and Bare My Naked Soul , in FRENCH record store, so they shoulda been everywhere in the USA.

databank said:

Efan said:

I'm not sure, but I think it would come down to some combination of these...

1) Didn't most of them get big-label deals that probably locked them in until well after their shelf lives? I'm not sure I understand why they'd want to go with an indie when they could have a major label deal.

2) After about 1986, none of them were very much in demand at all, and without Prince involvement, the demand for them dropped even more. Even the most successful associated artist, Sheila E., had incredibly dismal sales for her post-Prince solo album Sex Cymbal. I don't think it managed to sell the 50,000-100,000 copies you mention in the OP (although I have no idea, so that's just speculation on my part).

3) They weren't indie artists and would need to get into the Sam Goodys, Musiclands, etc. at that time in order to reach their intended audience. Would an indie label really be able to get them into those stores in a significant way?

4) Back to Sheila E.: She did the indie route, didn't she? I thought her two jazz albums were indie-released and didn't do too well.

How could I forget Sheila?

Same story, though: 2 albums released TEN years after her WB deal ended and then nothing again.

I really don't know about the sales figures, but what I know is that (at least in Europe) some indy labels are just SO happy when they manage to sell 10,000 or 20,000 copies of a record, so you know... Most of the artists above would always sell more than a new band no one ever heard of, wouldn't they?

It's indeed possible that some artists were stuck in contracts with their label, contracts which prevents them to release any music elsewhere, but doesn't force their label to release their music either: it's quite common in the music industry.

As for the distribution deals, any DECENT independant label manages to be distributed elsewhere (i found Sheila's indie records, as well as the Girl Bros. and Bare My Naked Soul , in FRENCH record store, so they shoulda been everywhere in the USA.

Thought of one other thing I would add in relation to someone like Apollonia: Since she's not a musician/songwriter, all those skills would have to be acquired, adding to the cost of the album. Apollonia might show up with some lyrics she's written, but you'd still have to hire a producer, songwriters, a band, etc. And then pay to promote it, knowing that she's not really famous enough to get booked on a lot of shows. I just think between all the label deals they had in the '80s, the complete lack of fame they had in the '90s, and the time, money, and effort it would take to get even smallish sales, the payoff wouldn't be very enticing to a small label.

databank said:

SoulAlive said:

Jesse Johnson released an album in 1996 'Bare My Naked Soul' on a small independent label.Just last year,he released 'Verbal Penetration'.

Didn't Wendy and Lisa release a few albums independently,as well?

They released one in 1998 (as "Girl Bros.") and one in 2008, but both were self-produced and self-released.

Was Girl Bros. self-produced or produced by Tchad Blake and executive produced by the girls? I know the roles were reversed for White Flags and they produced while he executive produced.

W&L had major label contracts for the bulk of their career. Even when they went MIA it was because of their contract fight with Trevor Horn and his label, ZZT.

databank said:

SoulAlive said:

Jesse Johnson released an album in 1996 'Bare My Naked Soul' on a small independent label.Just last year,he released 'Verbal Penetration'.

Didn't Wendy and Lisa release a few albums independently,as well?

They released one in 1998 (as "Girl Bros.") and one in 2008, but both were self-produced and self-released.

Before that, they released Wendy and Lisa (1987) and Fruit at the Bottom (1989) with Columbia and Eroica (1990) with Virgin.

I remember Jesse saying He WANTED 2 release a Rock oriented project after Every Shade Of Love, but A&M were dead set against it. They wanted MORE of that "Mpls, Sound"........

bobbyperu said:

First of all, none of these artists are going to sell to anyone but Prince fans. Secondly, none of these artists were ever intended to go solo, except Morris and Jesse maybe. Wendy, Lisa, Sheila, St Paul were all just band members that Prince decided to do a project for. I think most of them are perfectly happy just being musicians rather than rock stars. As for the Vanities and Appolonias of this world, I think it's obvious that all they had going for them were their looks.

He never did a project for them beyond remixing a song which was an afterthought for everyone.

woogiebear said:

I remember Jesse saying He WANTED 2 release a Rock oriented project after Every Shade Of Love, but A&M were dead set against it. They wanted MORE of that "Mpls, Sound"........

They wanted New Jack Swing and Jesse wasn't having it.

He mentions it in the recent interview posted.

SoulAlive said:

That's a good question.

Taja signed with Reprise in the early 90s and she released an album called 'Toys Of Vanity'.This was the first single:

"Trouble Having You Near" by Taja Sevelle (1991)

What did she do with Prince?

minneapolisFunq said:

woogiebear said:

I remember Jesse saying He WANTED 2 release a Rock oriented project after Every Shade Of Love, but A&M were dead set against it. They wanted MORE of that "Mpls, Sound"........

They wanted New Jack Swing and Jesse wasn't having it.

He mentions it in the recent interview posted.

Got it.......

sosgemini said:

bobbyperu said:

First of all, none of these artists are going to sell to anyone but Prince fans. Secondly, none of these artists were ever intended to go solo, except Morris and Jesse maybe. Wendy, Lisa, Sheila, St Paul were all just band members that Prince decided to do a project for. I think most of them are perfectly happy just being musicians rather than rock stars. As for the Vanities and Appolonias of this world, I think it's obvious that all they had going for them were their looks.

He never did a project for them beyond remixing a song which was an afterthought for everyone.

Disagree with BobbyPeru on this.

I think Wendy & Lisa have done an excellent job of selling to folks that don't care for Prince. Ever since Eroica (1989) they've done a pretty good job of establishing their own sound. And there are a lot of folks that got into them through their "Dangerous Minds" single or through nods from other artists that really don't care about Prince. (This is particularly the case now, with lots of their Heroes scoring work becoming club hits among a generation who have no idea who Prince is.)

I know Ingrid Chavez isn't on your list, but same sitch. She's far more likely to gain fans through her associations with David Sylvian, Ryuichi Sakamoto or even P. C. Munoz than she is through Prince.

The other question from the other poster is why not go straight to indie. I think that's a function of the changing music model. You're trying to project a post-internet marketing model backwards in time, but it doesn't work. Back in the mid-80s, the smaller labels were all being eaten alive by larger ones. And, in fact, if you look at it, W&L signed with CBS (a smaller label) that was integrated into Columbia and, later, Sony. It was small, although not indie. At that time, there was very little viable indie route for anyone but punk bands . . . But if you look at their work starting in the mid-nineties (particularly after the ZTT burn) they have done an excellent job of leveraging World Domination Records, Topspin, etc.

-- the scribbler formerly known as Katrina Alliasan

Astasheiks said:

SoulAlive said:

That's a good question.

Taja signed with Reprise in the early 90s and she released an album in 1991.This was the first single:

"Trouble Having You Near" by Taja Sevelle (1991)

What did she do with Prince?

She released a self-titled debut album in 1987 on Paisley Park Records.It includes two Prince-written tracks: "Wouldn't U Love 2 Love Me" and "If I Could Get Your Attention".

Sounds like a familiar tune....female gets a album/cd out by P in exchange for some ....

sosgemini said:

Astasheiks said:

Sounds like a familiar tune....female gets a album/cd out by P in exchange for some ....

Yeah,that's basically how it happens and then when the record flops,he moves on to someone else,lol

Genesia said:

databank said:

They released one in 1998 (as "Girl Bros.") and one in 2008, but both were self-produced and self-released.

Before that, they released Wendy and Lisa (1987) and Fruit at the Bottom (1989) with Columbia and Eroica (1990) with Virgin.

What about reading the OP b4 answering?

Alliasan said:

sosgemini said:

He never did a project for them beyond remixing a song which was an afterthought for everyone.

Disagree with BobbyPeru on this.

I think Wendy & Lisa have done an excellent job of selling to folks that don't care for Prince. Ever since Eroica (1989) they've done a pretty good job of establishing their own sound. And there are a lot of folks that got into them through their "Dangerous Minds" single or through nods from other artists that really don't care about Prince. (This is particularly the case now, with lots of their Heroes scoring work becoming club hits among a generation who have no idea who Prince is.)

I know Ingrid Chavez isn't on your list, but same sitch. She's far more likely to gain fans through her associations with David Sylvian, Ryuichi Sakamoto or even P. C. Munoz than she is through Prince.

The other question from the other poster is why not go straight to indie. I think that's a function of the changing music model. You're trying to project a post-internet marketing model backwards in time, but it doesn't work. Back in the mid-80s, the smaller labels were all being eaten alive by larger ones. And, in fact, if you look at it, W&L signed with CBS (a smaller label) that was integrated into Columbia and, later, Sony. It was small, although not indie. At that time, there was very little viable indie route for anyone but punk bands . . . But if you look at their work starting in the mid-nineties (particularly after the ZTT burn) they have done an excellent job of leveraging World Domination Records, Topspin, etc.

-- the scribbler formerly known as Katrina Alliasan

That's a very interesting point, it's true that outside of indie rock and punk, smaller labels have really started to emerge in the mid to late 90's. Thanks for pointing this