pimpytheclown said:

How did the experience blow up in his face?

prince wrote better songs between 83-86 than he has over the past decade.

the songs he did with w&l also seemed more sophisticated, both in terms of instrumentation and the melodies themselves.

this is purely an opinion.

I think they helped him widen his cultural and consequently musical range and diversity...

ian said:

Wait for the W & L squad to see this threads, W & L are not women they are angels!

lickerdipper said:

I've heard this before, and I find it to be sort of ridiculous. Prince was born and raised in Minneapolis, a city that does not have a large percentage of Blacks. The Beatles are, and have always been ubiquitous, radio-wise/tv-wise/magazine-wise, etc. So were other White acts on the radio in a White dominated city. I do not believe that anyone in the United States needs someone to expose them to a group like the Beatles. We're talking The Beatles here; even brothas know who John, Paul, George and Ringo are/were.

klaatu said:

Dirty Mind did that before they came along.

But, I'm also of the opinion that Wendy and Lisa has a profound impact on Prince's music. Someone pointed out that the raunchiness went away in his mid 80s albums, and I agree with that. Note that I said "raunchiness" not "eroticism". The eroticism was always there, but I believe that Wendy and Lisa helped him to see that "less is more".

jnoel said:

Hmmm... Well you can't make a sandwich without putting the interesting bit within two pieces of bread.

The bread isn't the most tasty bit, but it adds something to the whole - it takes longer to chew and digest.

I think that Wendy & Lisa were the bread.

Susannah could possibly have been classed as the mayo.

T loved Wendy & Lisa. They bought imagination and diversity to Prince's music. They encouraged him to experiment with different styles and themes.

Best solo track they ever did? Try "To Trip is To Fall" the B-Side to Waterfall. Wow!

This is in the wrong forum, btw.

Supernova said:

Co-sign-I cant remember where I read it,but I heard he grew up listening to rock radio mostly.I know he liked Fleetwood Mac,Led Zeppelin,Jimi Hendrix and Santana.

Ive always liked W & L ,but I think the reason they are so "famous" compared to his other bandmates is thier prominant roles in Purple Rain.Also ,Prince has always "prop"ed his band as the best band ever,often giving credit on projects with little or no band involvement.1999,PR,ATWIAD,and Parade are all credited to Prince & The Revolution,however all contain many solo Prince tracks.The same is true for the NPG albums as well.In other words , they colaborated with Prince.But so did Sheila,Levi,TonyM,Rosie,Sonny & Michael,Rhonda,and yes even Kirky.

I don't think that they made Prince's music "whiter" - I think they made it jazzier, if anything.

Their influence on some of the songs is irrefutable. How can nobody hear it?

MrTation said:

Interesting that Kirky gets so much heat for Emancipation. Perhaps it's easier to suggest Kirky is at fault, more so than Prince.

BinaryJustin said:

Everyone's hearing it but are some people contributing too much of it to Wendy & Lisa? Maybe.

I'll take any W&L album over that freakin symbol album!

Anji said:

I'll tell ya why...

Because they did NOTHING...

Prince was PRINCE with no outside influences back then. He was a controlling D*CK and had everything his was.. Hence the gritty funk that came out during that time period.

After that he was influenced by whoever was into the "cool thing of the moment" and his creativity suffered because of it (Kirky J).

So there ya go...

TheMEssage said:

How can you 'blame' Kirky for Prince's apparent lack of creativity? You're putting the finger on someone else for something Prince failed to please you on.

2 be quite frank, i could care less what they did. it's not like they're goddesses or anything...i don't quite understand why some folks hold w & l in such high regard, really...


mine!!

Without Wendy & Lisa there would have been no "Sometimes It Snows In April" - a massive turning point in his recorded output at that time. You can't compare that track to anything he ever did before without them.

He went downhill when they left - as simple as. I'm not talking about the Revolution being disbanded, I'm talking about when they left his life. He must have still been on speaking terms with them in 1988 for him to remix their "Lolly Lolly" single.

As well as being band members, nobody has mentioned that they were all best friends. There has been no comparable non-sexual female input in his personal life since that I can think of.

The Wendy & Lisa "solo" albums are undeniably better than any other records made by any other protogees or collaborators. They were part of the Revolution's sound - not just bit players.

Anji said:

Ummm...

No, I was stating that Prince was allowing others to have influence in his musical output. Kirk was adding his hip hop bullsh*t drum machine cheese to Prince's productions and it was destroying the root of the music.

When Wendy And Lisa were around that was all Prince... It was dirty, raw, funk.

BinaryJustin said:

I didn't know Wendy & Lisa composed 'Sometimes It Snows In April.'

Interesting point about their friendship. How non-sexual was his relationship with Susannah and how did that affect his 'best friends' status with Wendy, & Lisa?

What actually happened to break up these 'best' friends?
[This message was edited Mon Feb 10 17:29:52 PST 2003 by Anji]

TheMEssage said:

Was Prince allowing Kirky complete artistic control to put beats to his music, without contributing himself. I just don't buy it. Prince always puts his musical stamp on all his work, regardless of who contributes. That's what he does.

Anji said:

Co-wrote...

The flip-side of the meaning within "If I Was Your Girlfriend" seems to be that to be as close to Susannah as she was to her girlfriends, he would have to assimilate their position within her life. I've often wondered how Wendy or Lisa would have read his intent within that song, considering that Susannah's "girlfriends" were supposedly his best friends...

I've also seen "Strange Relationship" as being about Wendy & Lisa - even though he has them singing back-up on it. I imagine that its the sort of weird thing he'd do to his friends at that time. Write a song as a cryptic message to them and then get them to sing on it. I don't think that its appearance on the album AFTER "If I Was Your Girlfriend" was any coincidence either. The two songs together seem to be a reason and conclusion.

1) The reason why his relationship with Susannah was failing was because of her relationship with Wendy & Lisa;
2) "I can't live with you, can't live without you" - Is he saying one thing to Wendy & Lisa and one thing to Susannah?

Maybe I'm wrong, but its how I've always seen the two songs.

BinaryJustin said:

I know..because his next three records were SOTT, Black album and Lovesexy..he sure did mess up after they were gone.



Well for one thing it has been written that he gets on better with the company of women...from what he has stated in print so who knows?

Wendy and Lisa are Margarita and Ecstasy--

But why do people think that without anyone else Prince himself could not have grown in his songwriting without any help? And why do they think he did not know about any other tender influnces to effect his music. He was an avid Joni Mithcell lover, liked Led Zep etc all before Wendy n Lisa became too prominent. It isnt like he couldnt play piano without W&L etc. Or play guitar anymore..or reach for something different on his own..however he did say Wendy took him higher on the song Old Friends 4 Sale...I think the higher part was th e comfortabilty factor in the studio and the comradarie which is exteremely important. Seems they also took the anger out of him(for better or for worse).What I find is that listening to Wendy n Lisas debut and Fruit At The Bottom is that theres a lot of the Rev parade era sound..but it seems that they complimented each other because solo they didnt have the uggh with Prince in there either...Not saying the songs arent good but god..listen to some of them..uggh. But there is a definite Dream Factory sound on Honeymoon Express, some Sometimes It Snows on The Life, Are U My baby has Prince influence and vice versa, I Think It Was December is something like A Place In Heaven and Prince may have copped his live Rave performance from Fruit At The Bottom on the small club aftershow etc.. So they both semi complimented each others own visions and sound..people say Prince music sucks without them..well their music wasn't exactly the bomb without his input either imo. When I hear thier first 2 albums I hear parade without a frame or any meat in its sandwhich.

But what they did was sidetrack his sound I believe...for better? maybe... for worse? possibly. All I know is I was waiting for some 1999 part two etc and I got strings and Purple Rain, Snows in April etc..in retrospect I like it but thats also all I know..who knows what else could have been without their fluttery space sound or so called influence.

I see it like this..Purple Rain had 3 songs on it that was all Prince and only Prince
1. Beautiful Ones
2. Darling Nikki
3. When Doves Cry

Not to shabby for a forward sound or take-off from the 1999 album...then all of the influences and particiaption from Wendy n Lisa and their brothers and sisters and cousins and gramma etc...no wonder Prince die hards were mad. He picked up a load of other fans maybe..the pop audience?..but dag...he sure did lose some and thats why I state that Prince was Prince from Dirty Mind -Controversy and 1999. Those albums are the essence of Prince music and what it stood for ..from the man himself..without the aid of a margarita or ecstasy etc.


.
[This message was edited Mon Feb 10 17:53:38 PST 2003 by rdhull]

I think they fit where He was at the time.Prince wanted to Create his Own Sly&The Family Stone&they came along at the right time IMHO.I think they Challenged Him&Felt He Respected what they Brought to the table.but make no Mistake about it Prince Pimped that Image for His Own gain but Got more Creative Game from Association with Jimmy Jam,Terry Lewis,Dez,Andre,Morris,Vanity&Jesse Johnson IMHO.

rdhull said:

Well I did specify after they left his life - not his band. I believe they were still speaking sporadically up until mid '88. Thus, the first crappy album without Wendy, Lisa AND Susannah in his life would be Batman.

As for The Beautiful Ones, Darling Nikki and When Doves Cry being the next purely-Prince progression after 1999, I sort of agree but I've always seen the Appolonia 6 album as being the missing link between the electro-funk of 1999 and the pop-sensibilities of Around The World In A Day. I think what makes Purple Rain interesting is that the songs sound like completely different genres but with the same production values applied. You know, Take Me With U is country with 80s synths, a drum machine and live percussion... Computer Blue is prog-rock with 80s synths, a drum machine and live percussion... The Beautiful Ones is Philly soul with 80s synths, a drum machine and live percussion... With a string quartet hovering over the album too! I'm probably going to get flamed for saying this, but the Purple Rain album sounds like a bunch of completely different songs given the same production to make them sound cohesive. That isn't a bad thing by the way!

I think that back in 83/84, Prince on his own wouldn't have produced "1999 Part 2" without Wendy & Lisa's input - he would have produced "Apollonia 6 part 2" without Wendy & Lisa's input - something akin to a more radio-friendly Controversy album. I admit that his songwriting was getting more pop anyway but Wendy & Lisa were integral to the overall sound by the time of ATWIAD, even if their writing input was minimal.

BinaryJustin said:

And after that with Batman if he went down which we dont know it cold be attributed to thos eband members going separate ways..he wasn't still feening for W&L Im sure...plus he had another set of musicans as family etc





I can get with, that but again..that music has a lot of band contributions



I agree..they are totally separate songs with no cohesive theme in general--sort of songs that were just made and applied for a soundtrack ..



hmm..I do think 1999 part 2 wold happen without W&L though..he even said he has it in th e can anyways os maybe its of completed songs done at the same time in 81-82 who knows...but I do agree he was setting himself up from a more poppy accessible sound yes, but his way. Like a Little Red Corvette style. But then again he had Rasberry Beret etc.already in his head (see Intimate moments etc) so maybe there influence was to actually put out and complete the upbeat pop things etc?...so I agree with you..he was ready to go pop on his own..hmmm..this is interesting...

I have always thought i was alone on this subject. I thought Dez Dickerson had more influence than both of them put together.

Well, maybe 'cause (back then) they were the only "prince girls" that could actually write, play, read music ect.(besides Sheila E.). And they were the only "prince girls" that never had a romantic relationship with him.

Bottomline is Prince had/has made great albums before, during, and after Wendy and Lisa. I think that they did contribute somewhat to prince's music, making it more pop & commercial-something they obviously didn't do with their own stuff.

And keep this in mind: had there never been no W&L, there would've never been Susannah; who inspired him a great deal.

I like most of Wendy & lisa's stuff; they certainly have grown (as musicians) since then.