WisdomNLove said:

<snip> oh yeah thats my own avatar pic as well, nice isnt it

[Edited 3/3/11 2:11am]

Actually, it is, damn nice!

Spinlight said:

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said:

This is very true, I always said the twins looked "weird." Not ugly, just weird, kind of like a pretty'd up alien. She does favor them a bit, and Troy Beyer.

Considering people have posted your pictures here before where you looked pretty fucking busted, I would refrain from passing judgment on other women. Ever.

prodigalfan said:

Spinlight said:

Considering people have posted your pictures here before where you looked pretty fucking busted, I would refrain from passing judgment on other women. Ever.

lavender1983 said:

WisdomNLove said:

1. your response was just as ignorant as I was expecting

2. could careless what you do for a living nor did I even notice your avatar prior to your last post nor would I ever want to know you outside of this message board

3. Just because someone is a public figure doesnt mean you have a right to be extremely judgemental towards them, especially since they have reached heights of success you could never reach with that shitty attitude, clearly they are doing something right, constructive criticism is one thing, being nasty is another

4. you are no longer worth the energy typing a response to, the chat between you and I is officially over. *you're dismissed*

happy org posting troll and oh yeah thats my own avatar pic as well, nice isnt it

[Edited 3/3/11 2:11am]

Oh my gawd. Fantastic response.

How the fuck so? She gets bent over someone expressing their opinion, throws out the old "you hide behind a computer and don't show your mug" shtick and when I call her on it (and call her on the nature that I too am publicly criticized) she jumps the ship, changes the subject interely and then says "I'm done with you" as she collectedher toys from the sandbox and stormed off in a tiff. It reads rather childish, IMHO.

Just saying...

No honeybun. No disrespect but she called you out on your bullshit. Straight to the point and as a matter of fact.

Yea we all have opinions about others and their looks or whatever but the way I see some of the Prince associated women sliced and diced in here is just wrong and that kind of behavior is what is truly "ugly"...Someone you dont fucking know. That they are out there doing what they do in the limelight is no excuse for that kind of behavior.

But hey you're gonna say that's your opinion..well this is mine and I just happen to agree with her.

Since this is a public forum don't expect to make statements like that and not have someone call you out on it.

Jus sayin.

lavender1983 said:

No honeybun. No disrespect but she called you out on your bullshit. Straight to the point and as a matter of fact.

Yea we all have opinions about others and their looks or whatever but the way I see some of the Prince associated women sliced and diced in here is just wrong and that kind of behavior is what is truly "ugly"...Someone you dont fucking know. That they are out there doing what they do in the limelight is no excuse for that kind of behavior.

But hey you're gonna say that's your opinion..well this is mine and I just happen to agree with her.

Since this is a public forum don't expect to make statements like that and not have someone call you out on it.

Jus sayin.

How the hell are my comments extreme? Did I call the girl ugly? No, I think people's panties are soo damn wound up they are throwing their anger out at other's for not expressing the same level of fandom and "respect" for Prince. That's BS. Everyone's got the right to shair their opinion. In the end, all you can do is disagree. Calling someone's thoughts or opinion bullshit is straight up silly.

[Edited 3/3/11 12:30pm]

colorblu said:

Ottensen said:

Girl, I've been seeing ABT for years, and I had no recollection that home girl was patiently dancing in the Corps of ABT for years before that! Lord, my eyes and memory are getting baaaaaaad. Either that or my head is stuck so far up the collective asses of Philadanco, Ailey, and Dance Theatre of Harlem that I'm sleeping on everybody else

That being said, yes American Ballet Theatre is one of the most important companies in the nation. Internationally speaking, along with New York City Ballet and San Francisco Ballet, the three of them essentially define the American style of ballet. Copeland is basically in the top 3% of ballet company soloists on the entire North American continent. Anyone remotely familiar with the world of classical dance knows that ain't nothing to sneeze at. Go 'head Misty.

Nice video thanks for posting

It is a very nice video-lovely

sosgemini said:

lavender1983 said:

No honeybun. No disrespect but she called you out on your bullshit. Straight to the point and as a matter of fact.

Yea we all have opinions about others and their looks or whatever but the way I see some of the Prince associated women sliced and diced in here is just wrong and that kind of behavior is what is truly "ugly"...Someone you dont fucking know. That they are out there doing what they do in the limelight is no excuse for that kind of behavior.

But hey you're gonna say that's your opinion..well this is mine and I just happen to agree with her.

Since this is a public forum don't expect to make statements like that and not have someone call you out on it.

Jus sayin.

How the hell are my comments extreme? Did I call the girl ugly? No, I think people's panties are soo damn wound up they are throwing their anger out at other's for not expressing the same level of fandom and "respect" for Prince. That's BS. Everyone's got the right to shair their opinion. In the end, all you can do is disagree. Calling someone's thoughts or opinion bullshit is straight up silly.

[Edited 3/3/11 12:30pm]

I never mentioned anything about respect for Prince in this convo.

Now what I think is "silly" is the uncalled for and harsh criticism of these ladies excused by "If they dont like it they can get out of the spotlight". You didn't need to call them straight out ugly. You said enough. It isn't just you of course....A lot of ppl on this board do the same thing and it's very irritating to me. I would be just as irritated if they were not in the "spotlight". That's just me.

My opinion includes thinking that it is bullshit. Take it how you want it.

We can go back and forth on this all day long and I'm not interested in that but I think my point is pretty clear.

Like you said difference in opinions.

Calling Misty or Bria "Drag in the face" is just one of the examples of uneccessary harsh criticism.

lavender1983 said:

Calling Misty or Bria "Drag in the face" is just one of the examples of uneccessary harsh criticism.

right. That is one thing I never did concerning Bria. Questioning her gender. A Misty is down right cute. No way is she going to be mistaken for a man unless someone is BURNING with jealousy.

sosgemini said:

lavender1983 said:

Oh my gawd. Fantastic response.

How the fuck so? She gets bent over someone expressing their opinion, throws out the old "you hide behind a computer and don't show your mug" shtick and when I call her on it (and call her on the nature that I too am publicly criticized) she jumps the ship, changes the subject interely and then says "I'm done with you" as she collectedher toys from the sandbox and stormed off in a tiff. It reads rather childish, IMHO.

Just saying...

What in the world do you do that you're criticized in public like that? And if you have had that kind of crap happen, why in the world would you then think it was ok to do to someone else? The old 'misery loves company' thing or what?

[Edited 3/3/11 13:25pm]

Serena, I work in politics.

sosgemini said:

Serena, I work in politics.

Oh, sorry to hear that.

lavender1983 said:

Calling Misty or Bria "Drag in the face" is just one of the examples of uneccessary harsh criticism.

I don't need to address your other post cause there's nothing really there for me to disagree with, I get your point but don't neccessarily agree that I (or others) have breached or reached a point of extreme.

And I don't see what's wrong with saying a woman is a bit draggish in the face. America's Next Top Model uses it every other show. I think it's offensive to the LGBT community that a woman would take offense to being compared to a draq queen. Simply put, being dragish looking means a woman who has masculine features. Now, if I said Misty and Bria look like men, well, that's another thing. But I didn't....

Much respect for you talking to me like an adult. If everyone did that, maybe they wouldn't get so "bent" when they see the water flowing in a way they disagree.

sosgemini said:

lavender1983 said:

Calling Misty or Bria "Drag in the face" is just one of the examples of uneccessary harsh criticism.

I don't need to address your other post cause there's nothing really there for me to disagree with, I get your point but don't neccessarily agree that I (or others) have breached or reached a point of extreme.

And I don't see what's wrong with saying a woman is a bit draggish in the face. America's Next Top Model uses it every other show. I think it's offensive to the LGBT community that a woman would take offense to being compared to a draq queen. Simply put, being dragish looking means a woman who has masculine features. Now, if I said Misty and Bria look like men, well, that's another thing. But I didn't....

Much respect for you talking to me like an adult. If everyone did that, maybe they wouldn't get so "bent" when they see the water flowing in a way they disagree.

Misty looks very feminine as far as I am concerned and so does Bria. I'm sure the people talking smack dont look no better. It's one thing to attack her personality..I've heard she has been on here and wasn't nice or whatever. I dont know nothing about that and she hasn't done anything to me personally so I call it how I see it.

Saying they look "draggish" to me means they could be mistaken for men dressing up as women. Isn't that what drag means?

I tend to approach folks the same way they approach me so....no biggie.

Deadflow3r said:

sosgemini said:

Sorry folks, just cause she has "light skin" and "good hair", don't mean she is attractive. Look at that latest pic of her. She's just as drag in the face looking as Bria. In fact, I'd say Bria is more interesting looking this Misty Twelve Year Old. Actually, Misty has the same oddness that the twins got going on in their face. And Anne Hathaway...big facial features that just don't add up.

That is all...

Neither woman is a perfect beauty. I think the reason that Bria's looks got dogged so much is because her personality was not very pretty. So far Misty has not done anything that I have heard of that seems underhanded, catty and just plain childish.

How does Bria come across as catty, and childish then? You say she has an unpretty personality but how do you judge that? Just by pictures? In her interview she came across really down to earth and nice and maybe nervous. Sometimes people get nervous by cameras and they either don't smile or shy away. I think her way of dealing with shyness is giving a forced smile perceived to be smugness.

sosgemini said:

lavender1983 said:

Calling Misty or Bria "Drag in the face" is just one of the examples of uneccessary harsh criticism.

I don't need to address your other post cause there's nothing really there for me to disagree with, I get your point but don't neccessarily agree that I (or others) have breached or reached a point of extreme.

And I don't see what's wrong with saying a woman is a bit draggish in the face. America's Next Top Model uses it every other show. I think it's offensive to the LGBT community that a woman would take offense to being compared to a draq queen. Simply put, being dragish looking means a woman who has masculine features. Now, if I said Misty and Bria look like men, well, that's another thing. But I didn't....

Much respect for you talking to me like an adult. If everyone did that, maybe they wouldn't get so "bent" when they see the water flowing in a way they disagree.

Um, you're only getting away with using "draggish in the face" here because there's not a lot of gay people here. That's actually offensive towards the LGBT community. I've called people on it before. It's not okay. Not towards a woman and not in the company of transgendered people (or drag queens).

^^^ Get the fuck out of here. Seriously, on ANTM, its gay people who say that. Fuck, I am gay. there's nothing offensive about saying that. And FYI: Within the LGBT political community, which I am part of, Drag and transgender having nothing in coming. So to even bring up the transgender community is a reach!

And now you know and knowledge is power!

[Edited 3/3/11 20:00pm]

lavender1983 said:

Saying they look "draggish" to me means they could be mistaken for men dressing up as women. Isn't that what drag means?

That's not what I meant when I used it.

sosgemini said:

^^^ Get the fuck out of here. Seriously, on ANTM, its gay people who say that. Fuck, I am gay. there's nothing offensive about saying that. And FYI: Within the LGBT political community, which I am part of, Drag and transgender having nothing in coming. So to even bring up the transgender community is a reach!

And now you know and knowledge is power!

[Edited 3/3/11 20:00pm]

If you're gay, then you should know better than to use "drag in the face" as an insult. If you don't, you need to expose yourself to more people cuz that's a sheltered way of thinking.

Spinlight said:

sosgemini said:

^^^ Get the fuck out of here. Seriously, on ANTM, its gay people who say that. Fuck, I am gay. there's nothing offensive about saying that. And FYI: Within the LGBT political community, which I am part of, Drag and transgender having nothing in coming. So to even bring up the transgender community is a reach!

And now you know and knowledge is power!

[Edited 3/3/11 20:00pm]

If you're gay, then you should know better than to use "drag in the face" as an insult. If you don't, you need to expose yourself to more people cuz that's a sheltered way of thinking.

Please, stop. I happen to be dear friends with a major transgender advocate. It was she who shared that the trasnsgender and draq circles are not one in the same. Again stop, I am one who pushes not to use the N-word on this site. Ask anyone who visits the non-music forum. The last thing I would do is say anything that was incensitive but we cant make up things simply to win an arguement over weither Misty is attractive or not. You actually hurt a movement when you bring up a petty arguement such as this.

sosgemini said:

JCinNYC2003 said:

sosgemini said:

^^^ Get the fuck out of here. Seriously, on ANTM, its gay people who say that. Fuck, I am gay. there's nothing offensive about saying that. And FYI: Within the LGBT political community, which I am part of, Drag and transgender having nothing in coming. So to even bring up the transgender community is a reach!

And now you know and knowledge is power!

[Edited 3/3/11 20:00pm]

I would disagree with some of your points here. Transgender can encompass a range of different gender expression, from drag to cross dressing to full-out transexuals. So they're not unrelated completely. But I think the issue that gets such a strong reaction is using drag as a reference point to question a woman's attractiveness, as though she's not "all woman". Even on ANTM there's a difference when Miss J calls a contestant dragish while putting on an affected voice- it's meant as a putdown, unlike when a contestant is praised for having handsome features. The gist of the more negative comments about Misty, and not all made by you, seem to call her out as inherently not 'feminine'. And while some may have that opinion, and it's difficult to imagine why, it can read as mean spirited as calling someone out over their weight or skin color. Just my $.50.

See, and this is where I was initially until I had a healthy and productive conversation with my dear transgender friend. As an activist who hosts our local Trangsgender day of rememberence she shared that drag queens do not self-identify as trasgender and therefore are not part of the transgender movement. Plus, drag is a form of expression that is not tied into gender. We now have female draq queens (who some dress as men and some as women).

I still cant wrap my head around this whole subject because there are some male drag queens who live their days in drag (yet who have declared they have no interest in gender reasignment) and who use female restrooms and respond to only "she" yet who refuse to be considered transgender. It's all soo new, fluid and yes...confusing. But in the end, if you don't consider yourself a part of a movement, you can't be forced.

Real interesting conversation this has turned into and while I see your point about Miss J (and other's here), I am still not ath the point where I can conceed that stating a female has dragish features is a putdown. We say men have feminine features all the time as description. I will acknowledge that some due use it as a putdown but I wasn't nor do I think everyone here was either.

Good conversation though...

sosgemini said:

JCinNYC2003 said:

sosgemini said: I would disagree with some of your points here. Transgender can encompass a range of different gender expression, from drag to cross dressing to full-out transexuals. So they're not unrelated completely. But I think the issue that gets such a strong reaction is using drag as a reference point to question a woman's attractiveness, as though she's not "all woman". Even on ANTM there's a difference when Miss J calls a contestant dragish while putting on an affected voice- it's meant as a putdown, unlike when a contestant is praised for having handsome features. The gist of the more negative comments about Misty, and not all made by you, seem to call her out as inherently not 'feminine'. And while some may have that opinion, and it's difficult to imagine why, it can read as mean spirited as calling someone out over their weight or skin color. Just my $.50.

See, and this is where I was initially until I had a healthy and productive conversation with my dear transgender friend. As an activist who hosts our local Trangsgender day of rememberence she shared that drag queens do not self-identify as trasgender and therefore are not part of the transgender movement. Plus, drag is a form of expression that is not tied into gender. We now have female draq queens (who some dress as men and some as women).

I still cant wrap my head around this whole subject because there are some male drag queens who live their days in drag (yet who have declared they have no interest in gender reasignment) and who use female restrooms and respond to only "she" yet who refuse to be considered transgender. It's all soo new, fluid and yes...confusing. But in the end, if you don't consider yourself a part of a movement, you can't be forced.

Real interesting conversation this has turned into and while I see your point about Miss J (and other's here), I am still not ath the point where I can conceed that stating a female has dragish features is a putdown. We say men have feminine features all the time as description. I will acknowledge that some due use it as a putdown but I wasn't nor do I think everyone here was either.

Good conversation though...

I'm surprised that you seem to think this idea was simply made up. Or that you can't see the connection between the two. Or why you think that it would not be offensive to a TG person to see you call a woman "draggish in the face"... JC did a good job of explaining the point I was trying to make (albeit I was doing it badly). I'm not even suggesting you are... whatever. You're perfectly fine with me! I'm just urging you to not use "draggish" as a descriptor. Nor should people on here be sayin Bria looks "trannyish" etc. Its demeaning to whole heaps of groups. Women, latinas, transpeople, drag queens, etc.

You certainly are going to sleep just fine regardless of my opinion, but I see we're both in the bay area and it wasn't until I moved here that I realized how many toes one can easily step on. I simply refrain from saying things like that at all (mainly because there's so many other ways to diminish people - why use any kind of slur?).

sosgemini said:

lavender1983 said:

Saying they look "draggish" to me means they could be mistaken for men dressing up as women. Isn't that what drag means?

That's not what I meant when I used it.

Ok then. I work in the fashion industry...with models in particular and I am quite hip to "handsome" or androdynous looking women. The industry loves them.

When someone calls Bria a "Tranny"..I dont think they mean it as a compliment.

sosgemini said:

Serena, I work in politics.

Now I understand your need to vent...

sosgemini said:

JCinNYC2003 said:

sosgemini said: I would disagree with some of your points here. Transgender can encompass a range of different gender expression, from drag to cross dressing to full-out transexuals. So they're not unrelated completely. But I think the issue that gets such a strong reaction is using drag as a reference point to question a woman's attractiveness, as though she's not "all woman". Even on ANTM there's a difference when Miss J calls a contestant dragish while putting on an affected voice- it's meant as a putdown, unlike when a contestant is praised for having handsome features. The gist of the more negative comments about Misty, and not all made by you, seem to call her out as inherently not 'feminine'. And while some may have that opinion, and it's difficult to imagine why, it can read as mean spirited as calling someone out over their weight or skin color. Just my $.50.

See, and this is where I was initially until I had a healthy and productive conversation with my dear transgender friend. As an activist who hosts our local Trangsgender day of rememberence she shared that drag queens do not self-identify as trasgender and therefore are not part of the transgender movement. Plus, drag is a form of expression that is not tied into gender. We now have female draq queens (who some dress as men and some as women).

I still cant wrap my head around this whole subject because there are some male drag queens who live their days in drag (yet who have declared they have no interest in gender reasignment) and who use female restrooms and respond to only "she" yet who refuse to be considered transgender. It's all soo new, fluid and yes...confusing. But in the end, if you don't consider yourself a part of a movement, you can't be forced.

Real interesting conversation this has turned into and while I see your point about Miss J (and other's here), I am still not ath the point where I can conceed that stating a female has dragish features is a putdown. We say men have feminine features all the time as description. I will acknowledge that some due use it as a putdown but I wasn't nor do I think everyone here was either.

Good conversation though...

I know this is way off topic but the whole umbrella concept is interesting. I'm not transgender so I'm only speaking from work and some personal experience. Transgender is an umbrella term in the same way that LGBT is an umbrella - it lumps groups together that might not have much in common socially but do politically. There are plenty of people who would argue that gay men and lesbians have very different political and social issues, much less bisexuals and tg, but for activism and political lobbying it makes sense to stand together.

Similarly transgender is kind of a controversial term because it can lump together groups that otherwise wouldn't identify with each other but politically can gain from lobbying as a community. Like if a non-discrimination law based on gender identity were ever passed, a married heterosexual man who cross-dresses to go to work would be protected from being fired in the same way a pre-op transsexual woman would. But other than that, the two people might never identify with each other socially in terms of gender identity, but have gender expression in common.

I've known of transgender women who, once they had gender reassignment surgery, didn't want to be know as transgender - just as women - and some who were very visible in the TG community (so it caused a lot of drama). A close friend of mine "came out" as transgender to her friends because, as she put it, even though she identified as a woman first, she recognized the political importance of self-identifying to raise awareness and deal with the stigma of being labelled. Underlying all this of course is the issue of passing. The more convincing a transgender woman can be, i.e. not be identified as anything other than female, the better in terms of not being stigmatized (or worse). That, again, is where some of the dragish references are meant to cut - with some drag, it's not always about passing as a woman but exaggerating feminity - so if you look dragish, then you're not passing. You were busted as a fraud.

It's complicated, but interesting.

JCinNYC2003 said:

sosgemini said:

See, and this is where I was initially until I had a healthy and productive conversation with my dear transgender friend. As an activist who hosts our local Trangsgender day of rememberence she shared that drag queens do not self-identify as trasgender and therefore are not part of the transgender movement. Plus, drag is a form of expression that is not tied into gender. We now have female draq queens (who some dress as men and some as women).

I still cant wrap my head around this whole subject because there are some male drag queens who live their days in drag (yet who have declared they have no interest in gender reasignment) and who use female restrooms and respond to only "she" yet who refuse to be considered transgender. It's all soo new, fluid and yes...confusing. But in the end, if you don't consider yourself a part of a movement, you can't be forced.

Real interesting conversation this has turned into and while I see your point about Miss J (and other's here), I am still not ath the point where I can conceed that stating a female has dragish features is a putdown. We say men have feminine features all the time as description. I will acknowledge that some due use it as a putdown but I wasn't nor do I think everyone here was either.

Good conversation though...

I know this is way off topic but the whole umbrella concept is interesting. I'm not transgender so I'm only speaking from work and some personal experience. Transgender is an umbrella term in the same way that LGBT is an umbrella - it lumps groups together that might not have much in common socially but do politically. There are plenty of people who would argue that gay men and lesbians have very different political and social issues, much less bisexuals and tg, but for activism and political lobbying it makes sense to stand together.

Similarly transgender is kind of a controversial term because it can lump together groups that otherwise wouldn't identify with each other but politically can gain from lobbying as a community. Like if a non-discrimination law based on gender identity were ever passed, a married heterosexual man who cross-dresses to go to work would be protected from being fired in the same way a pre-op transsexual woman would. But other than that, the two people might never identify with each other socially in terms of gender identity, but have gender expression in common.

I've known of transgender women who, once they had gender reassignment surgery, didn't want to be know as transgender - just as women - and some who were very visible in the TG community (so it caused a lot of drama). A close friend of mine "came out" as transgender to her friends because, as she put it, even though she identified as a woman first, she recognized the political importance of self-identifying to raise awareness and deal with the stigma of being labelled. Underlying all this of course is the issue of passing. The more convincing a transgender woman can be, i.e. not be identified as anything other than female, the better in terms of not being stigmatized (or worse). That, again, is where some of the dragish references are meant to cut - with some drag, it's not always about passing as a woman but exaggerating feminity - so if you look dragish, then you're not passing. You were busted as a fraud.

It's complicated, but interesting.

Good info! And I think most within the drag community see themselves as entertainers first and foremost and for the most part, non-political. A lot of them seem to live within the "court" system. They get their social fix from going from one Court event to another. From a political perspective, it's been a challenge for me to get these people to realize the importance of political organizing. The funny thing is, the court system was created following Stonewall and it was originally created too fight for political justice. Now, it's more a non-profit fundraising mechanism which is not healthy for the LGBT fight for equality cause your most engaging and charismatic public speakers can be found in our Courts.

Anyhoo, that's why I said calling a woman "draggish" as a nono is a made up arguement because those within the drag community wouldn't take offense. They are, for the most part, entertainers and they live to be "exaggerated". I like that explanation of yours, exaggerated feminity.

NightGod said:

[img:$uid]http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2084/9118410/23615037/395207548.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo72/sanmeul/jump.jpg[/img:$uid]

Maytiana said:

Deadflow3r said:

Neither woman is a perfect beauty. I think the reason that Bria's looks got dogged so much is because her personality was not very pretty. So far Misty has not done anything that I have heard of that seems underhanded, catty and just plain childish.

How does Bria come across as catty, and childish then? You say she has an unpretty personality but how do you judge that? Just by pictures? In her interview she came across really down to earth and nice and maybe nervous. Sometimes people get nervous by cameras and they either don't smile or shy away. I think her way of dealing with shyness is giving a forced smile perceived to be smugness.

My remark has nothing to do with her few appearances in 2009. It has to do with things that happened both here and on Housequake from 2008 on. I wrote extensively in a thread titled "PRINCE AND HIS PROTEGES ON THE ORG?" prince.org/msg/5/344279.