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Printableanthonyspeaks said: TrevorAyer said: ive been checking out wendy and lisa on u tube this morning and realizing how awesome they are ... prince use to be a great song writer for sure and he did a lot of cool stuff with out much of their imput ... but i think something happened when he dumped them ... maybe he felt threatened ... listening to what they wrote post revolution and what he wrote post revolution .. i am sorry to say but they sound better ... musically harmonically the funk the lyrics ... there is just so much more going on ... prince is still playing the 3 chord blues in a lot of his songs ... they are still pushing the boundaries of music and poetry ... it reminds me of when i saw prince in montreal on the symbol tour .. he had this spot light and did this solo guitar solo ... no band just him on guitar run thru a delay ... he kept playing the simplest and not really interesting guitar lick making the echo ... i wasnt really impressed ... actually disappointed it was so bad ... and he kept saying to the crowd "can i play guitar?" and waiting for the cheers which he got ... looking back i think the dumping of the revolution was a spiritual turning point for the worst .. sure sign o the times was pretty good .. but knowing a lot of that music was worked on with the revolution and then he just kind of cut them out of the picture gives it a different feel ... the previous albums are so alive and full of love and joy and life ... after that it gets a little cold sounding ... even with lovesexy there is an emptiness to the spirituality ... prince chose his ego over the beautiful family god had provided him ... he chose to judge and to serve himself and not the art ... this may be part of the reason he couples an album like rainbow children with songs like mellow mellow where he is singing about a vibrator ... it doesnt really make sense to me .. the whole spiritual bent and then he throws in that sort of fetish material ... prince definately has some good ideas ... but i think he may have lost himself along the way ... lost in the money and ego he is always saying he is not that into ... running away from who god intended him to be .. sorry if that is harsh
I am getting SO tired of people romanticizing Wendy, Lisa and the Revolution and how Prince has lost his way without them and somehow needs them to validate his talent and vision. Prince did do some great work with them and he's done some great work without them, as well. Why is it that one of his most prolific periods in making music was when he parted ways with them? SOTT. Remember, most of Wendy and Lisa's input was taken out of those songs they are credited for. Camille and Madhouse also came out of that period. Also, why can't an artist grow? Could the Revolution have really pulled off the performances in the SOTT movie? I kinda think Sheila E. was being considered for the drums as far back as Purple Rain (Appollonia 6, "A Million Miles"). Mark and Fink were the only ones invited to stay, probably because they had the ability to go where prince needed them to go musically. But i digress. I feel like Prince grew artistically and that growth could not be nurtured and fulfilled by the Revolution. That's like saying that Miles Davis' first great band was his only great band. Sure, as an artist you will be influenced by those around you, but eventually you will outgrow that particular situation and move on toward the next avenue of creative interest and challenge. I think that is what Prince did and still does. I would love to hear some, if not all, the unreleased material he did with Wendy and Lisa; I know it's probably some good stuff. I'd also like to hear the unreleased material Prince did with Andre Cymone and Dez Dickerson; these guys were integral ingredients in the formation of the Time. One thing I've recognized throughout the years is how Prince will work with a certain band members and create stuff aside from the band. Andre & Dez, Wendy & Lisa, Eric Leeds, Levi Seacer, Morris Hayes, Kirk Johnson and Rhonda Smith, John Blackwell & Rhonda Smith etc. These are probably people who have inspired him. Those people are definitely given credit for their input now more so than early in his career and i think management is responsible for that. Again, I digress. My point is people need to stop limiting Prince to his work with the Revolution. It's not fair to Prince as an artist nor is it fair to the art he is sharing with his audience. People need to just sit back and enjoy the ride and stop second guessing a situation that they're not even a party too. You think Dr Fink and Brownmark were the only ones invited to stay b/c they were the only ones who could hang with him musically?!?! Man o man. Wendy & Lisa were fired b/c they had informed Prince that they were quitting the band during the Parade tour. They were fed up b/c of how bloated the band had become all of a sudden. And b/c the backup dancers were acting like total pigs. The only member of The Revolution who was replaceable was Bobby Z. There is such a thing as musical chemistry and Prince had that with those set of musicians. Even Dr Fink is on record as saying that when Prince fired Wendy & Lisa he lost musical input that could not be replaced. You think Levi Seacer compares to Wendy & Lisa?!?! Prince's output from 80-87 was by far his best. That's not longing for the past its just an undeniable fact. the music knows what your motives are when you are making it
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LinnLM1 said: anthonyspeaks said: I am getting SO tired of people romanticizing Wendy, Lisa and the Revolution and how Prince has lost his way without them and somehow needs them to validate his talent and vision. Prince did do some great work with them and he's done some great work without them, as well. Why is it that one of his most prolific periods in making music was when he parted ways with them? SOTT. Remember, most of Wendy and Lisa's input was taken out of those songs they are credited for. Camille and Madhouse also came out of that period. Also, why can't an artist grow? Could the Revolution have really pulled off the performances in the SOTT movie? I kinda think Sheila E. was being considered for the drums as far back as Purple Rain (Appollonia 6, "A Million Miles"). Mark and Fink were the only ones invited to stay, probably because they had the ability to go where prince needed them to go musically. But i digress. I feel like Prince grew artistically and that growth could not be nurtured and fulfilled by the Revolution. That's like saying that Miles Davis' first great band was his only great band. Sure, as an artist you will be influenced by those around you, but eventually you will outgrow that particular situation and move on toward the next avenue of creative interest and challenge. I think that is what Prince did and still does. I would love to hear some, if not all, the unreleased material he did with Wendy and Lisa; I know it's probably some good stuff. I'd also like to hear the unreleased material Prince did with Andre Cymone and Dez Dickerson; these guys were integral ingredients in the formation of the Time. One thing I've recognized throughout the years is how Prince will work with a certain band members and create stuff aside from the band. Andre & Dez, Wendy & Lisa, Eric Leeds, Levi Seacer, Morris Hayes, Kirk Johnson and Rhonda Smith, John Blackwell & Rhonda Smith etc. These are probably people who have inspired him. Those people are definitely given credit for their input now more so than early in his career and i think management is responsible for that. Again, I digress. My point is people need to stop limiting Prince to his work with the Revolution. It's not fair to Prince as an artist nor is it fair to the art he is sharing with his audience. People need to just sit back and enjoy the ride and stop second guessing a situation that they're not even a party too. You think Dr Fink and Brownmark were the only ones invited to stay b/c they were the only ones who could hang with him musically?!?! Man o man. Wendy & Lisa were fired b/c they had informed Prince that they were quitting the band during the Parade tour. They were fed up b/c of how bloated the band had become all of a sudden. And b/c the backup dancers were acting like total pigs. The only member of The Revolution who was replaceable was Bobby Z. There is such a thing as musical chemistry and Prince had that with those set of musicians. Even Dr Fink is on record as saying that when Prince fired Wendy & Lisa he lost musical input that could not be replaced. You think Levi Seacer compares to Wendy & Lisa?!?! Prince's output from 80-87 was by far his best. That's not longing for the past its just an undeniable fact. As far as Mark and Fink, I feel they were the only ones suitable for the direction Prince was going. Wendy and Lisa's departure, be it termination or voluntary exit, they obviously couldn't hang with the changes. I do remember a Rolling Stone magazine article during that time period and they did seem less enthused about the expanding "Counter-Revolution". I kinda liked the expansion myself. And after listening to Wendy and Lisa's debut album(which still sounds remarkably relevant to this day) i felt like Prince should have done more work with them, possibly even an entire album with just the three of them. Prince definitely had a chemistry with Wendy and Lisa but i don't believe their absence was detrimental to Prince's music. What about N.E.W.S.? Damn near an hour of improvisation and it was completely overlooked and misunderstood. I think we also must remember that Prince had Warner Bros. to promote all of his material, which gave him a higher level of visibility. I will never buy into the opinion that Prince's best work was 80-87. Has anybody listened to the Lotus Flower disc? What about Rainbow Children? How about Xpectation? ONA? Also, how many artists have the ability to interchange bands within the same album? Prince continues to grow and experiment and produce innovative material and i believe his best work is in front of him. His 80's stuff is SOME of his best work but not all. Wendy and Lisa presence, while appreciated and sometimes missed, is and was not an end all to be all. He experimented before and after them. | |
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anthonyspeaks said: TrevorAyer said: ive been checking out wendy and lisa on u tube this morning and realizing how awesome they are ... prince use to be a great song writer for sure and he did a lot of cool stuff with out much of their imput ... but i think something happened when he dumped them ... maybe he felt threatened ... listening to what they wrote post revolution and what he wrote post revolution .. i am sorry to say but they sound better ... musically harmonically the funk the lyrics ... there is just so much more going on ... prince is still playing the 3 chord blues in a lot of his songs ... they are still pushing the boundaries of music and poetry ... it reminds me of when i saw prince in montreal on the symbol tour .. he had this spot light and did this solo guitar solo ... no band just him on guitar run thru a delay ... he kept playing the simplest and not really interesting guitar lick making the echo ... i wasnt really impressed ... actually disappointed it was so bad ... and he kept saying to the crowd "can i play guitar?" and waiting for the cheers which he got ... looking back i think the dumping of the revolution was a spiritual turning point for the worst .. sure sign o the times was pretty good .. but knowing a lot of that music was worked on with the revolution and then he just kind of cut them out of the picture gives it a different feel ... the previous albums are so alive and full of love and joy and life ... after that it gets a little cold sounding ... even with lovesexy there is an emptiness to the spirituality ... prince chose his ego over the beautiful family god had provided him ... he chose to judge and to serve himself and not the art ... this may be part of the reason he couples an album like rainbow children with songs like mellow mellow where he is singing about a vibrator ... it doesnt really make sense to me .. the whole spiritual bent and then he throws in that sort of fetish material ... prince definately has some good ideas ... but i think he may have lost himself along the way ... lost in the money and ego he is always saying he is not that into ... running away from who god intended him to be .. sorry if that is harsh
I am getting SO tired of people romanticizing Wendy, Lisa and the Revolution and how Prince has lost his way without them and somehow needs them to validate his talent and vision. Prince did do some great work with them and he's done some great work without them, as well. Why is it that one of his most prolific periods in making music was when he parted ways with them? SOTT. Remember, most of Wendy and Lisa's input was taken out of those songs they are credited for. Camille and Madhouse also came out of that period. Also, why can't an artist grow? Could the Revolution have really pulled off the performances in the SOTT movie? I kinda think Sheila E. was being considered for the drums as far back as Purple Rain (Appollonia 6, "A Million Miles"). Mark and Fink were the only ones invited to stay, probably because they had the ability to go where prince needed them to go musically. But i digress. I feel like Prince grew artistically and that growth could not be nurtured and fulfilled by the Revolution. That's like saying that Miles Davis' first great band was his only great band. Sure, as an artist you will be influenced by those around you, but eventually you will outgrow that particular situation and move on toward the next avenue of creative interest and challenge. I think that is what Prince did and still does. I would love to hear some, if not all, the unreleased material he did with Wendy and Lisa; I know it's probably some good stuff. I'd also like to hear the unreleased material Prince did with Andre Cymone and Dez Dickerson; these guys were integral ingredients in the formation of the Time. One thing I've recognized throughout the years is how Prince will work with a certain band members and create stuff aside from the band. Andre & Dez, Wendy & Lisa, Eric Leeds, Levi Seacer, Morris Hayes, Kirk Johnson and Rhonda Smith, John Blackwell & Rhonda Smith etc. These are probably people who have inspired him. Those people are definitely given credit for their input now more so than early in his career and i think management is responsible for that. Again, I digress. My point is people need to stop limiting Prince to his work with the Revolution. It's not fair to Prince as an artist nor is it fair to the art he is sharing with his audience. People need to just sit back and enjoy the ride and stop second guessing a situation that they're not even a party too.  Stand Up! Everybody, this is your life!
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Aaron6 said: I think everyone needs to realize that the success of Purple Rain killed, in some ways Prince's "rawness", but in other ways made him explore music in a way with W&L he hasn't done before or since. What the Dream Factory sessions and the Parade tour proved was that the MUSICAL possibilities were ENDLESS! Folks, no one knew that Prince with W&L "influence" could be so versatile during this time period. Up until this point, the "Minneapolis sound" was a predictable formula; add a funky bass line here, heavy on the synths and linn drums there, with a dash of Prince's korkie ways and ahhhh..., you have purple music.The music during the 85/86 time period was ahead of it's time at least by 10yrs. There is a reason why so many of us are still talking about how great and wonderful the music from SOTT is. That album is an example of the greatness of what Prince can come up with when he is "connected" with the right musicians and chemistry...W&L were major players in that connection.
Peace, Aaron6ix I agree with most of this. I love the MPLS sound, but by the end of the Purple Rain period, it was already everywhere else, with solo projects from previous band members and those influenced by the sound and copy-cat artists. I actually think a 'Purple Rain II' would've been great (there's a few threads about that in the main forum, search them out for fantasy tracklists - stuff like All Day, All Night and 100 MPH, Prince did still had his own distinctive and un-copyable version of the MPLS sound post-Purple Rain). But that sound couldn't go on forever without getting stale, and as stated above, Prince actively wanted to explore new territory for himself. So whilst some may 'blame' W&L for watering down Prince's sound (or whatever charge it is they bring), Prince was going in these directions any way, it wasn't just W&L he was taking input from Sheila and Eric and later Levi and it goes on. He was taking in all this stuff, because it suited where HE wanted to go. He threw the curveball of ATWIAD on purpose, not because W&L had hypnotized him. Prince no doubt heard the other artists biting on his heels and he took a left turn and put out stuff like Kiss and Girls & Boys, which was still 'funky', but had a completely different sound to the 83/84 material. So he was always ahead of the game. This ability to stay ahead of his competition and put out something almost undefinable other than "Prince" is what makes Prince the era-defining artist he is and not just another pop star, he one of those artists that carriers the torch. And the people he had around had a significant input in that, without them he still had it, but with them he was all the stronger for it. That's why some fans think he's missing that kind of input now, and look back at the mid-80s as something special, because that was a time when this kind of melding of talents and ideas was at it's zenith, with Wendy & Lisa, Dez, Sheila, Eric, et all. He captured it for a bit with the 93-95 era NPG, but I don't think Prince allowed the kind of input much after 1987 that he had with those people who were around before and just at the height of his mid-80s mega-fame, which was a shame for the NPG and is still a shame for most of his recent output. Maybe his band members have something to offer, but they don't have the kind of relationship with Prince that allows the kind of input those around in the 80s had. Great shame indeed. . [Edited 12/30/09 11:24am] | |
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NouveauDance, I couldn't have put it better myself!  From 78" until 87" anyone who followed Prince's career could see the musical evolution in progress and it was very exciting to witness. That's why it was hard for me to except Lovesexy because from 88" up until today we have TOLERATED Prince's musical output! Like I said before, Prince is number one in my book, but we have to admit, the musical evolution stopped once key musicians were fired or "left" on their own. W&L, Dez, Andre, various members of The Time helped make Prince what he was and is...GREAT! "Produced, Arranged, Composed, and Performed by Prince" is a myth people, the above musicians mentioned helped make the myth a reality...
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Trevor, I was about to post a new thread on Wendy and Lisa and then I saw your thread. I have been a long time Prince and the Revolution fan, but this is my first time listening to a Wendy and Lisa album--Eroica--and I am amazed and delighted by how great they are! What terrific songwriters and singers! Their voices remind me of early Heart songs that were so wonderful...even some of the sounds! I feel like I've made a new discovery for women singers...I hope they continue to put out new albums... I just bought White Chimneys off Amazon...can't wait to hear it! Much LUV 4 Wendy and Lisa! | |
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I'm keen on hearing their white chimneys but there wasn't much feedback on this forum for the album. small circles, big wheels!
I've got a pretty firm grip on the obvious! |
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Rightly said: I'm keen on hearing their white chimneys but there wasn't much feedback on this forum for the album.
Great record imo. VERY different direction for them. You can actually listen over at their site. As far as those bringing up ONA, NEWS, Rainbow Children and especially LotusFlower - these records all suffer from amazing talent with little direction. I'm sorry to say that the fusion/jazz/rock compositions are weak as hell - tho the playing may be good. I grew up listening to BANDS who were full of amazing talent but also interacted and wrote with each other, that is what made them great. "Lotus" was a bust imo. Retreads galore that brought nothing new to Prince's career and seriously damaged the "minneapolis sound" with overly loud linn drums and weak melodies. Sort of a weak Prince rip off which made me feel even more strongly that the sound came from good old fashioned collaboration (even if not as obvious as most bands collaborate). I'm seriously not going to stack any of his new material against "Girl", "17 Days", "Alexa De Paris", "Tambourine", "New Position" and songs like those. THAT was groundbreaking stuff. Prince still has the raw talent to take those kind of risks but needs to do something to kick himself in the ass. Like McCartney hiring a producer to tell him what was rubbish on his last cd. I am certainly not implying it be W&L or any former band member. But I believe whole heartedly it was trusted fellow musicians that drove him forward; where today he is in an old school rut in need of a push. That is IF he wants a push. Because as much as I'd like to hear it, I also recognize that I HAVE some amazing material that I can enjoy any time I want and some people never produce that kind of sheer genius material. So it's all kind of theoretical at this point. |
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Rightly said: I'm keen on hearing their white chimneys but there wasn't much feedback on this forum for the album.
I rarely use the word genius but Wendy & Lisa I feel deserve it more than most musicians out today. The White Flags of Winter Chimneys album is the perfect example of what their day job scoring has done for their music! There's not one note or emotion out of place on that album. If you don't have it GET IT!! lol  Prince may be the purple Yoda, but Wendy & Lisa and Eric Leeds also sit on the Jedi Council. | |
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