ive been checking out wendy and lisa on u tube this morning and realizing how awesome they are ... prince use to be a great song writer for sure and he did a lot of cool stuff with out much of their imput ... but i think something happened when he dumped them ... maybe he felt threatened ... listening to what they wrote post revolution and what he wrote post revolution .. i am sorry to say but they sound better ... musically harmonically the funk the lyrics ... there is just so much more going on ... prince is still playing the 3 chord blues in a lot of his songs ... they are still pushing the boundaries of music and poetry ... it reminds me of when i saw prince in montreal on the symbol tour .. he had this spot light and did this solo guitar solo ... no band just him on guitar run thru a delay ... he kept playing the simplest and not really interesting guitar lick making the echo ... i wasnt really impressed ... actually disappointed it was so bad ... and he kept saying to the crowd "can i play guitar?" and waiting for the cheers which he got ... looking back i think the dumping of the revolution was a spiritual turning point for the worst .. sure sign o the times was pretty good .. but knowing a lot of that music was worked on with the revolution and then he just kind of cut them out of the picture gives it a different feel ... the previous albums are so alive and full of love and joy and life ... after that it gets a little cold sounding ... even with lovesexy there is an emptiness to the spirituality ... prince chose his ego over the beautiful family god had provided him ... he chose to judge and to serve himself and not the art ... this may be part of the reason he couples an album like rainbow children with songs like mellow mellow where he is singing about a vibrator ... it doesnt really make sense to me .. the whole spiritual bent and then he throws in that sort of fetish material ... prince definately has some good ideas ... but i think he may have lost himself along the way ... lost in the money and ego he is always saying he is not that into ... running away from who god intended him to be .. sorry if that is harsh

I totally agree with what you are saying. I think some people in the Prince community are in complete denial when it comes to this topic! The music has suffered greatly since not only W&L, but even key memembers of The Time. What people don't understand is the reason why the first 9 albums were so great and that you could hear and see the muscial evolution in Prince's music is because of the great musicians he had around him. We believed in the "myth" of the one man band, but really all of it was a lie! Sure Prince can play all the instruments and was and is a "studio work horse", but folks we need 2 be honest with ourselves and realize Prince is only as great as the MUSICIANS he has around him! There is a reason why the music since Lovesexy hasn't been as great as the music before Lovesexy. Sure I will admit, there have been some gems over the years, but Prince's music hasn't been the same in quite some time, this isn't a complaint, this is fact. "Produced, Arranged, Composed, and Performed" was great marketing by Warner Brothers, but in reality, "Jamie Starr's a theif"...even Prince knows that.
Peace,
Aaron6ix

This thread will turn into a bloodbath before it is locked.

NouveauDance said:

Let the games begin!

before this thread degenerates... I'll say I agree with you, Trevor.

NouveauDance said:

Co-sign

duggalolly said:

I agree n co-sign as well

duggalolly said:

me too

Aaron6 said:

i can agree to a certain degree about the statement you made regarding the musicians around him but i just dont consider wendy and lisa (mainly wendy) to be those musicians. to me it seems like they wanted too much control over the music and if around the world in a day is any indicator of the direction they were trying to steer prince i am glad he ditched them before it was too late.

clearly he didnt need them to be successful and if you listen to the music from sign o'the times you can notice that instead of regressing he seems refreshed due to the new cast of characters in place around him.

check out a track such as the B-side la,la,la,he,he,hee. you cant tell me that w&l have put out anything that comes close to that type of funk and pure energy.

With the exception of "Adore" and "Housequake" SOTT was complete while he was with the Revolution in 86". And the Revolution was quite capable of playing funk just check out the live version of "America". Don"t get me wrong, Prince will always be #1 in my book, but you have 2 admit, the music has suffered over the years.
Peace,
Aaron6ix

Prince made so many great songs without them.

Did they improve Witness 4 The Prosecution?

I prefer the raw version without there input.

The music they made together was great and there albums post prince have all been enjoyable but Prince's post Revolution output towers over them.

The Whole Lovesexy Album, Pink Cashmere, The Future, Electric Chair, Sex, Scandalous, Still Would Stand All Time, Elephants and Flowers, Thunder, Diamonds And Pearls and I could go on and on.

minneapolisFunq said:

Though I love me some funk - the direction of ATWIAD, Parade, SOTT - etc are some of his most eclectic periods of music. Whatever it is that moved those in the direction they went I want more of.

the emphasis of wendy and lisa comes from seeing some of their recent work and just getting this refreshing AAAHHHH feeling like thats what i have been missing in prince work for some time ... dont get me wrong prince has GREAT ideas ... still does ... but take kiss ... that song came to life with outside imput ... diamonds and pearls money dont matter ... both improved with rosie but suffered with the cheesy npg .. imagine junk like hot wit u in the hands of wendy and lisa or the revolution ... i can almost hear it coming to life .. maybe a few of his real bad lyrics would not have made it .. it comes down to wendy and lisa ... he was close enough with them that i think they helped him keep the bar high and pushed him outside his comfort zone.. gave some of his most cheesy sentiments an authenticity and charm and poetry ... even susannah had the magic touch .. the family album is one of his best ... it may not be that wendy and lisa per se changed his lyrics or came up with a part ... but there was something in the relationship that kept prince alive and growing musically ... few others have brought that out in him but i think that is due to prince closing that door on intimate collaboration ... instead he has yes men and women around him ... wendy and lisa still retain a strong musical identity that has not degenerated ... prince on the other hand seems very lost ... i dont know that a recollaboration would improve ... if everyone has to tip toe around each other then it doesnt really work ... back then they were part of the upswing and were likely more fearless to express ... especially with susannah in the mix .. now i doubt it would be a true collab unless prince really lets loose on the reign

minneapolisFunq said:

Thank you...a lot of people think that anything with a fast tempo can be called funk.

W&L made some great contributions, but I'm also glad he ditched them before it was too late and they further emasculated his sound. ATWIAD type of music is not my preferred Prince sound either.

I don't have a problem with W&L devotees if that's their preference as long as they realize that it's only a preference and not a statement of fact. I personally don't care for their music even though I respect their talent, but I wouldn't go around saying that their material is substandard without Prince's input.

There are just as many people who prefer Prince's sound before and after W&L

babynoz said: before it was too late and they further emasculated his sound. ATWIAD type of music is not my preferred Prince sound either.[/quote]

And yet PLENTY of funk was there while they were there. People seem to forget that Lisa was around from VERY early on. I find it funny that people now pigeonhole ATWIAD as the "sound" that W&L brought to Prince, when it ids clear that they were around for so much more.

Zannaloaf said:

No. We said that ATWIAD was the "direction" they were going in at that particular time. Other than that we acknowledged that W&L made some great contributions...we just don't agree when people imply that they somehow "made" Prince. We're talking preferences here...not holy writ.

Lisa may have been around early on but her significant contributions didn't start the minute she walked in the door...it developed over a period of time. People appreciated them plenty, but some folks act like Prince would have been driving a cab and living at the Y if he hadn't worked with them. Musical taste is subjective.

We all have our favorite band members. All things considered I just don't see a reason to over or under estimate their importance based on my personal preferences.

Seems like people soon forget that David Coleman (Lisa brother)was locked in the studio by Prince for his birthday to record ATWIAD and was helped out by Johnathon Melvion (Wendys brother) but just saying

babynoz said:

i would say that PARADE and DREAM FACTORY were the directions they were headed ... ATWIAD still has pop life raspberry baret america the ladder paisley park ... all some of his tops work but if u hang up on 'did they play on the album' well no prince wouldnt let them but that does not negate their strong influence or fleshing it out more live .. w n l are the mascotts for a large family of influence that was top notch ... lisa definately influenced prince the moment they met .. thats like saying the first time prince heard miles davis it had no effect on him ... sheesh

When Wendy & Lisa were around Prince they made Prince seem more fascinating,sexy and enigmatic. The relationship between the 3 of them drew you in. W&L brought some fire to Purple Rain and added something great to ATWIAD and Parade.

babynoz said: No. We said...[/quote]

who is we?

I think everyone needs to realize that the success of Purple Rain killed, in some ways Prince's "rawness", but in other ways made him explore music in a way with W&L he hasn't done before or since. What the Dream Factory sessions and the Parade tour proved was that the MUSICAL possibilities were ENDLESS! Folks, no one knew that Prince with W&L "influence" could be so versatile during this time period. Up until this point, the "Minneapolis sound" was a predictable formula; add a funky bass line here, heavy on the synths and linn drums there, with a dash of Prince's korkie ways and ahhhh..., you have purple music.The music during the 85/86 time period was ahead of it's time at least by 10yrs. There is a reason why so many of us are still talking about how great and wonderful the music from SOTT is. That album is an example of the greatness of what Prince can come up with when he is "connected" with the right musicians and chemistry...W&L were major players in that connection.
Peace,
Aaron6ix

Zannaloaf said:

who is we?[/quote]

"We" is referring to myself and minneapolisfunq, who was the one using ATWIAD as an example.

TrevorAyer said:

Right now the Vikings are tied with the Bears in overtime, so Imma make this quick.

I give the girls credit where credit is due and if you prefer their sound that's fine...I don't. By the time Prince cut them loose I was ready to move on as well.

It's all well and good to have a preference and an opinion but....



and



and



These statements are examples of pure unadulturated sentimental hyperbole and are utterly subjective. It's clear that you still harbor resentment after all these years toward Prince for dumping the girls and you're entitled to your feelings but subjective opinions should be presented as such.

W&L don't move me, but the difference is that I realize it's just a matter of taste. Therefore I don't see the need for me to make over the top judgements about their motives, spirituality, etc.

toots said:

Great post. It's a reminder that Prince's influences have always been wide and varied. Sometimes even from those he never even worked with. For every person who prefers the W&L era, there's somebody who has a different preference...no worries.

TrevorAyer said:

TrevorAyer said:

I am getting SO tired of people romanticizing Wendy, Lisa and the Revolution and how Prince has lost his way without them and somehow needs them to validate his talent and vision. Prince did do some great work with them and he's done some great work without them, as well. Why is it that one of his most prolific periods in making music was when he parted ways with them? SOTT. Remember, most of Wendy and Lisa's input was taken out of those songs they are credited for. Camille and Madhouse also came out of that period. Also, why can't an artist grow? Could the Revolution have really pulled off the performances in the SOTT movie? I kinda think Sheila E. was being considered for the drums as far back as Purple Rain (Appollonia 6, "A Million Miles"). Mark and Fink were the only ones invited to stay, probably because they had the ability to go where prince needed them to go musically. But i digress. I feel like Prince grew artistically and that growth could not be nurtured and fulfilled by the Revolution. That's like saying that Miles Davis' first great band was his only great band. Sure, as an artist you will be influenced by those around you, but eventually you will outgrow that particular situation and move on toward the next avenue of creative interest and challenge. I think that is what Prince did and still does. I would love to hear some, if not all, the unreleased material he did with Wendy and Lisa; I know it's probably some good stuff. I'd also like to hear the unreleased material Prince did with Andre Cymone and Dez Dickerson; these guys were integral ingredients in the formation of the Time. One thing I've recognized throughout the years is how Prince will work with a certain band members and create stuff aside from the band. Andre & Dez, Wendy & Lisa, Eric Leeds, Levi Seacer, Morris Hayes, Kirk Johnson and Rhonda Smith, John Blackwell & Rhonda Smith etc. These are probably people who have inspired him. Those people are definitely given credit for their input now more so than early in his career and i think management is responsible for that. Again, I digress. My point is people need to stop limiting Prince to his work with the Revolution. It's not fair to Prince as an artist nor is it fair to the art he is sharing with his audience. People need to just sit back and enjoy the ride and stop second guessing a situation that they're not even a party too.

What Trevor says in the 1st post is 100% correct.

Landonfunkmonkey said:

All of those releases, with the exception of "Elephants and Flowers" (which was written when Wendy & Lisa were still in Prince's camp), just prove Trevor's point - the music post-W&L is seriously lacking. Prince needed them around - if only to compete with and bounce ideas off of. He had no one to challenge him after they were gone. Never been the same - or as good.

anthonyspeaks said:

oh i agree that it goes beyond wendy and lisa ... lets not forget claire fisher as well but i think my point is that he grew and grew until the end of the revolution ... then something happened ... he stopped growing ... got less interesting more arrogant and more self centered .. there was a significant change in the music from that point forward not for the better ... still good but gradually devolving till we get albums filled with songs about sex toys and sex positions that are just corny and colabs with really bad rappers and prince trying to rap really bad and the thing i really miss ... is the turn of a phrase that used to just get me ... its gone ... they say it takes a village to raise a child well i think prince was raised by that group and then he said i dont need u anymore screw you ... but he did need them .. still does ... he searches for replacements but those people dont know him like the time or the family or wendy and lisa or dez or even vanity ... he needs to go home so we can hear that in his music again .. give the respect due to those that helped him get to the top .. yeah i think success went to his head and it shows in his post revolution work

anthonyspeaks said:

I don't think most people are romanticizing it. I , for one, just notice an overarching drop in experimentation after they left. That is NOT to say there was none, or that he didn't have other great music. But I can say that my opinion is that he definitely lost something with their departure. It could simply be timing, it could simply be that they were in a position to be honest with him where many others probably have not been. Once you achieve a certain amount of success it is nice to have old friends you can bounce ideas and thoughts off - people who are free to speak their mind. Many of those people are long gone as far as I can tell. Again- it might not even be the Revolution era input- more that he trusted people to say what was what and not just settle for a paycheck.