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PrintableOldFriends4Sale said: chopchop20 said: I'm saying, Bobby Z does not have a standout on any Prince record -- or anyone elses for that matter. Sorry, I'm not 45 so I missed him live back in '86, but still the guy is serviceable at best. Prince said, "...he pays attention like no other drummers do" -- not a ringing endorsement for his skills, basically saying he's a good metronome. And yes, Prince used a lot of drum machines that kept to similar patterns. BUT make no mistake about it, Drums were the most distinctive element of the Minneapolis Sound era. Prince arranged music around the beat and he used bass guitar in a non-traditional funk way (not a lot of low-end). He was very creative in that aspect and that's why the sound has translated so well to Hip Hop that we're hearing today. But again, that was all Prince not Bobby Z. Again, if U listen 2 Prince's earliest albums, the music is really simple as far as the drum work. I mean it's tight and has the beginnings of a Prince sound but the linn nor electric drumming was used until the Controversy album Trust me on this one I have hear Bobby live and have live show from the early years on up, and Bobby does the album + more, songs like Sexuality, funked up Head Sheila did no better years later during the Lovesexy show, During the 1999 & Purple Rain tour there was a combination of live drums, electric drums and the programmed linn (that clap and nock nock sound) Not even Sheila could immitate that and had to use the linn and some electric drumming to duplicate the album sound as close as possible. Prince concerts were very rehearsed and 'predictable' 4 him to be able to do what he wanted I've heard a good number of SOTT & Lovesexy shows and the routine is almost the same show after show (with the more spectacular Sheila E on drums) She had her solo spot light that most of the time just felt like filler, the best was from the SOTT movie and that probably because we can see what's happening. Ok the thing to me is that drums played a very prominent role in Prince's sound starting with Controversy (like you said). And as far as we know, the programming and sound design was was mostly Prince doing his own thing. How can we say that Booby had any influence on that, especially since it does not come across on record. MAYBE he had a hand in things behind the scenes. And you pointed out that Prince drew inspiration from rehearsals, so maybe those ideas were translated to tape. Dr. Fink, BrownMark, and Lisa were top-notch musicians, technically. Lisa was good, but better at composing and arranging. It's harder to tell about Bobby because he seemed to have a very limited role compared to the others. | |
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I read a quote a while ago that music changes when the beat changes. And back in his heyday, Prince was ahead of everybody on the beats. Up until 808 songs like "Rock the Bells", arguably Prince was hipper than hip hop. And he showed that he still was up to the challenge with the "Ballad of Dorothy Parker.
As he grew as a musician and started taking questionable liberties with song structure particularly in the 90's, he kind of buried the beat. His songs were either stale or just sprawling messes of excess half the time. Though in the early 90's he was heavy into drum looping with the NPG, but it wasn't the same. Prince needs to strip it back down -- lock him in the studio with a drum machine, a keyboard, and a rhythm guitar. And ban all horn players from the studio, he'll be good again. A lot of today's music is borrowing heavily from his old sound and arrangement techniques, so he should just take these kids to school. He could start by remixing "Wonderful Ass" and have a hit tomorrow. | |
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chopchop20 said: Again, this was 99.99% Prince, not Bobby Z. In the studio, yes. You're totally trying to discredit any input which Bobby performed at a concert. | |
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chopchop20 said: I read a quote a while ago that music changes when the beat changes. And back in his heyday, Prince was ahead of everybody on the beats. Up until 808 songs like "Rock the Bells", arguably Prince was hipper than hip hop. And he showed that he still was up to the challenge with the "Ballad of Dorothy Parker.
As he grew as a musician and started taking questionable liberties with song structure particularly in the 90's, he kind of buried the beat. His songs were either stale or just sprawling messes of excess half the time. Though in the early 90's he was heavy into drum looping with the NPG, but it wasn't the same. Prince needs to strip it back down -- lock him in the studio with a drum machine, a keyboard, and a rhythm guitar. And ban all horn players from the studio, he'll be good again. A lot of today's music is borrowing heavily from his old sound and arrangement techniques, so he should just take these kids to school. He could start by remixing "Wonderful Ass" and have a hit tomorrow. I agree with this train of thought If U listen to most of the drumming from 4U - Batman it's pretty simple and songs like Tambourine, isn't really spectacular as much as it's most a drum song stripped of everything else (worked for a song about masturbation) Sheila E on Pop Life wasn't because she was 'more spectacular' as much as it was probably just Prince Sheila Wendy Lisa and some other in the studio, the drumming is very simple straight forward The drumming on Life Can Be So Nice is not much different than on Sexuality and Bobby actually added more of a tight jungle beat to the song live Dance On (Lovesexy) was probably hard to keep up with live, because Sheial didn't even do a good job when they did it in concert. Like you said, strip it down again, because to much drum work takes away from Prince's music. I do love Everywhere(Rainbow Children) but even it is a straight beat from beginning 2 end. Prince started adding way too much big band feel and just looses me at times especially with the big brass sections | |
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chopchop20 said: OldFriends4Sale said: Again, if U listen 2 Prince's earliest albums, the music is really simple as far as the drum work. I mean it's tight and has the beginnings of a Prince sound but the linn nor electric drumming was used until the Controversy album Trust me on this one I have hear Bobby live and have live show from the early years on up, and Bobby does the album + more, songs like Sexuality, funked up Head Sheila did no better years later during the Lovesexy show, During the 1999 & Purple Rain tour there was a combination of live drums, electric drums and the programmed linn (that clap and nock nock sound) Not even Sheila could immitate that and had to use the linn and some electric drumming to duplicate the album sound as close as possible. Prince concerts were very rehearsed and 'predictable' 4 him to be able to do what he wanted I've heard a good number of SOTT & Lovesexy shows and the routine is almost the same show after show (with the more spectacular Sheila E on drums) She had her solo spot light that most of the time just felt like filler, the best was from the SOTT movie and that probably because we can see what's happening. Ok the thing to me is that drums played a very prominent role in Prince's sound starting with Controversy (like you said). And as far as we know, the programming and sound design was was mostly Prince doing his own thing. How can we say that Booby had any influence on that, especially since it does not come across on record. MAYBE he had a hand in things behind the scenes. And you pointed out that Prince drew inspiration from rehearsals, so maybe those ideas were translated to tape. Dr. Fink, BrownMark, and Lisa were top-notch musicians, technically. Lisa was good, but better at composing and arranging. It's harder to tell about Bobby because he seemed to have a very limited role compared to the others. Right drums did play an important role, but very simple, not in a spectacular way: Lady Cab Driver, 777-9311, Let's Work, Head, Sign o the Times, those songs never changed from beginning 2 end as far as the drum work, but it was a specific sound we may associate with Prince music. But even on Controversy the linn wasn't used much I think only on Private Joy, then you hear much more on 1999 & Purple Rain, songs like Purple Rain, I Would Die 4 U, Baby I'm a Star were organic-live drumming by Bobby Z and he really shined on PR also America(maybe you'll get to hear him let loose on this song during the PR tour) Mountains and you have 2 get a hold of the live shows from 4U-1983 pre Purpe Rain & the post PR shows:Parade Bobby is drumming on Ball(Dream Factory turned to Eye No-Lovesexy) same beat live on Power Fantastic, the Family rehearsal sessions with the Revolution From my understanding about Prince introducing the linn and electric drumming, Bobby was right along side him learning it when Prince was learning it, for live shows, Bobby Z like his brother is very a experience studio technician so for him to have influence in Prince's early music is no big deal Like we've been saying song with the heavy linn usage can't be played live without mess up, (by any drummer) once Prince got the pattern he wanted it was just looped. Sheila E had to use it a lot in the SOTT & Lovesexy shows, to keep that Minn sound and stay true to the album cut | |
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OldFriends4Sale said: chopchop20 said: Ok the thing to me is that drums played a very prominent role in Prince's sound starting with Controversy (like you said). And as far as we know, the programming and sound design was was mostly Prince doing his own thing. How can we say that Booby had any influence on that, especially since it does not come across on record. MAYBE he had a hand in things behind the scenes. And you pointed out that Prince drew inspiration from rehearsals, so maybe those ideas were translated to tape. Dr. Fink, BrownMark, and Lisa were top-notch musicians, technically. Lisa was good, but better at composing and arranging. It's harder to tell about Bobby because he seemed to have a very limited role compared to the others. Right drums did play an important role, but very simple, not in a spectacular way: Lady Cab Driver, 777-9311, Let's Work, Head, Sign o the Times, those songs never changed from beginning 2 end as far as the drum work, but it was a specific sound we may associate with Prince music. But even on Controversy the linn wasn't used much I think only on Private Joy, then you hear much more on 1999 & Purple Rain, songs like Purple Rain, I Would Die 4 U, Baby I'm a Star were organic-live drumming by Bobby Z and he really shined on PR also America(maybe you'll get to hear him let loose on this song during the PR tour) Mountains and you have 2 get a hold of the live shows from 4U-1983 pre Purpe Rain & the post PR shows:Parade Bobby is drumming on Ball(Dream Factory turned to Eye No-Lovesexy) same beat live on Power Fantastic, the Family rehearsal sessions with the Revolution From my understanding about Prince introducing the linn and electric drumming, Bobby was right along side him learning it when Prince was learning it, for live shows, Bobby Z like his brother is very a experience studio technician so for him to have influence in Prince's early music is no big deal Like we've been saying song with the heavy linn usage can't be played live without mess up, (by any drummer) once Prince got the pattern he wanted it was just looped. Sheila E had to use it a lot in the SOTT & Lovesexy shows, to keep that Minn sound and stay true to the album cut You have a deeper perspective because you witnessed a lot of the live shows. That's cool and i respect your insight. I always thought that the first few Prince albums had a more "traditional" funk, drum "feel" -- especially songs like Head, which is one of his best, straight up dance beats IMO. The stuff that followed after was slightly robotic, but it worked really well. And his manipulation of sound on the drums and keyboards too was awesome. Prince was always a studio genius 1st to me, followed by his musical genius ability to fuse different genres and make them unmistakably his own. I think he started spending too much time out out of the studio. I read an interview with Tommy B from the NPG back in the early 90's where he said that they tended to rush things in the recording stages without spending a lot of time on the actual sounds/programming of the synths and drums. And I can definitely tell. I think when he went through the whole "symbol" phase, other producers started sounding more like "Prince" than the man himself and probably so to this day when you listen to Timbaland (various songs), TM Juke (Electric Chair), Neptunes (Wanna Love You Girl by Robin Thicke) | |
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Right drums did play an important role, but very simple, not in a spectacular way: Lady Cab Driver, 777-9311, Let's Work, Head, Sign o the Times, those songs never changed from beginning 2 end as far as the drum work, but it was a specific sound we may associate with Prince music. True, but Prince really emphasized the drum in his songs, not unlike hip hop -- which was kinda unique and added a lot to his "sound". Even out of the context of dance genres.... "Let's Go Crazy" has a very repetitive drum track that does a great job of propelling the song which is slightly different than traditional rock. I think that's why it still rocks til this day, just makes you wanna move. LOL | |
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chopchop20 said: Right drums did play an important role, but very simple, not in a spectacular way: Lady Cab Driver, 777-9311, Let's Work, Head, Sign o the Times, those songs never changed from beginning 2 end as far as the drum work, but it was a specific sound we may associate with Prince music. True, but Prince really emphasized the drum in his songs, not unlike hip hop -- which was kinda unique and added a lot to his "sound". Even out of the context of dance genres.... "Let's Go Crazy" has a very repetitive drum track that does a great job of propelling the song which is slightly different than traditional rock. I think that's why it still rocks til this day, just makes you wanna move. LOL Yeah we are saying the same thing, when I say simple, I mean it wasn't all that big, songs like Let's Work, 777-9311, Ballad of Dorothy Parker, Sign o the Times, the Beautiful Ones, Lady Cab Driver are simple yet very distinct, | |
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