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PrintableBlaqueKnight said: meow85 said: You seem to have read a whole lot that's not there into mine and other's posts. I am not against organized religions or churches, nor am I trying to eradicate organized religion. And yes, I do understand that over the years religious organizations have often been the biggest movers and shakers in terms of social justice and charity. But I fail to see how certain good works are supposed to eclipse support for a doctrine that sees certain people as not only lesser than the rest of society, but as directly responsible for that society's ills. How is preaching that one group is inherently more at fault a "fine detail"? God isn't just looking at a person's actions, but what's in their heart as well. If what's in a person's heart is negativity towards an entire group of people, is God going to be saying, "Oh well, you fed a few homeless people once, so you're all good with Me." Let me use Prussian Blue as an example. If you're not familiar, they're a white supremist pop duo consisting of twin 14 year old sisters. They preach racial superiority in their music and dismiss the Holocaust as "exaggerated", though unlike certain so-called "white pride" musical acts they never preach violence towards people of colour. Then Hurricane Katrina struck. They raised money and supplies to be sent to survivors, on the condition that only white people were recipients. Surely they really did mean well for those they stipulated their donations go to. If their actions speak louder than what's in their hearts, then using the same logic you and Desiree are using, their good deed of making donations to Hurricane survivors ought to be a-okay in the Lord's eyes. I find that very hard to believe. In my eyes, this is a very similar situation playing out -yet who but other racists would support Prussian Blue's "opinion"? And no, I don't understand why a person would choose their religion over their being. If this were a question of spirituality or of a personal relationship to the Almighty versus sexuality, that would be different. But it's not. We're talking about religion. Religion and God are not necessary for one another to exist. Often, they're even mutually exclusive. Religion really is, in the end, just a club a person can choose to participate in or not. If someone believes their spiritual well-being hinges on their membership to a certain club, I'd suggest they've got some deep problems to work out. God can't possibly care what you do on Sunday or who's offering plate you're filling. I know who Prussian Blue is - those two little misguided children. I'm not justifying any wrongdoings, I'm simply saying that its not nearly as simple as you are trying to make it out to be. Since I'm not familiar with this specific church, I'm not about to condemn them. Blanket Statements like "They hate gays" or "they hate blacks" are not enough for me to assume that everyone in the church feels that way. As I said, people are far more complex than that and deserve closer examination. If you believe religion is "just a club" you have a vast lack of understanding of it. Religion has existed in some form or another since the dawn of man. Its far more than just a "club". That's a vastly erroneous statement. Not everyone believes that all homosexuals are born gay. There is no solid evidence that all are. We know its the case for most but there are exceptions. Since homosexuality can be both a born and learned behavior, there is still a grey area and it is that grey area that a lot of people mull over undecidedly. Regardless, when it comes down to it people make their own choices. That is something you have to learn to accept in life. There are 6.6 Billion people on the planet and not all of us are going to agree. Most people have an understanding of good and bad because all people are different combinations of the two. People pick and choose their battles. Sheila picked hers. No matter what is said, she chose to try to do what she perceives to be something good. There is no harm in that. [color=red]For the record, I never try to guess what God wants or what's okay in God's book. I assume he could care less about my insignificant ass. He's got universes to deal with.[/color] And 6.6 billion (minus BKnight LOL) other people to worry about. If you're a Christian you believe Jesus died for all our sins and we're all about to get redemption so maybe we're arguing just for the sake of arguing which benefits no one! [Edited 9/25/08 17:06pm] | |
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DesireeNevermind said: Just as you say you did not attribute the whole black/gay comparison to me, I did not attribute political/calculation comment to you. I am making an assessment on past civil rights and socioeconomic movements which is my right to do and also responsiblity.
I don't think I've contradicted myself at all. Actually you keep contradicting yourself in your posts. You say everyone should have their right to think want they want, but then you say we should "shut this thread down" because you don't like what some people are saying. That's just one example. Moreover, you keep attributing thoughts are satement to people who haven't made them. I never said Sheila was a homophobe or anything of the sort. I posted her statement as an attempt to defend her. I don't think ANYONE on this thread suggested boycott or any such thing. You also presume to know the inner motivations behind people's statements (i.e. people who compare the gay rights struggle to Blacks' struggle in the US is "calculated and political"). You may think it's calculated but the person saying may just see it as a natural and logical comparison. Again, I think and hope that we agree on the larger points (against discrimination of all kinds.  |
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This poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)really kinda sums up this whole discussion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ey_came... "In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist; And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist; And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew; And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up." It's not about who "suffers more". It's the fact that when one group is discriminated against, it really affects us ALL. So when one minority group--be it religious, ethnic, sexuality, whatever---starts preaching intolerance or hate against another one, it is a bad thing and very shortsighted. |
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GaryMF said: This poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)really kinda sums up this whole discussion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ey_came... "In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist; And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist; And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew; And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up." It's not about who "suffers more". It's the fact that when one group is discriminated against, it really affects us ALL. So when one minority group--be it religious, ethnic, sexuality, whatever---starts preaching intolerance or hate against another one, it is a bad thing and very shortsighted. nice, cool i like | |
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GaryMF said: DesireeNevermind said: Just as you say you did not attribute the whole black/gay comparison to me, I did not attribute political/calculation comment to you. I am making an assessment on past civil rights and socioeconomic movements which is my right to do and also responsiblity.
I don't think I've contradicted myself at all. Actually you keep contradicting yourself in your posts. You say everyone should have their right to think want they want, but then you say we should "shut this thread down" because you don't like what some people are saying. That's just one example. Moreover, you keep attributing thoughts are satement to people who haven't made them. I never said Sheila was a homophobe or anything of the sort. I posted her statement as an attempt to defend her. I don't think ANYONE on this thread suggested boycott or any such thing. You also presume to know the inner motivations behind people's statements (i.e. people who compare the gay rights struggle to Blacks' struggle in the US is "calculated and political"). You may think it's calculated but the person saying may just see it as a natural and logical comparison. Again, I think and hope that we agree on the larger points (against discrimination of all kinds. Well that's all you had to say really!  And I'm glad you didn't say Sheila was a homophobe, although I don't think I accused you in particular of saying that. I do recall saying the thread, e.g. several posts making her out to be that way. I did say shut it down b/c it seemed like she was being painted as such and unfairly IMO and I still feel that way when somebody insinuates that she espouses hate because she performed at a Church that supposedly espouses hate. Its not fair to her at all. Nobody can prove her to be such and nobody has even attempted - because they can't! However there are posts that she is wrong, wrong, wrong, how could she blah blah blah. Good grief, I feel for her that everything she does could possibly be so closely scrutinized and judged. I wouldn't want to be famous for that very reason.
I came to her defense and I questioned whether she or this Church are really hateful which I still don't think they are for sure and then the    crap started. It got out of hand and I participated by playing the advocate on a side that wasn't too popular save for me and Blaque and maybe somebody else but I just don't have the time to read all this stuff. There are far more interesting threads to me but shit I will visit this occasionally or for as long as it lasts, its been interesting.
I didn't say anybody on this thread suggested boycott. I asked a question about what does anybody on here that is so determined to be angry with her want to do. I asked the question, do you want to boycott, take out a full page add etc. But you glossed over that which I guess is easy to do if you are heated/aggravated and not thinking clearly. Not an intentional insult to you but come on, don't accuse me of saying something I didn't and don't say I accused you of something when I didn't. I don't presume to know the inner motivations of anyone but I make my own assessment on whats been stated in numerous discussions on the topic. Sometimes what people say speaks to their motivations, sometimes it doesn't. If I speak on what someone else says it doesn't mean I know 100% how they really feel, but if its relevant to the topic then its worth mentioning. Believe it or not there is a world outside this org where people talk about a variety of things including discrimination, politics, religion, minority groups, statistics, civil rights as well as tactics be they political or not and be they calculated or just winged that groups may use to make their point. If you watch the current campaign stumps, news or read the paper you will see alot of that being discussed right now. PPl get way too serious on here particularly when faced with an opposing view. I agree and disagree with people on any number of issues every day and at the end its all great dialogue and we are better for having communicated with one another. Doesn't mean we agree...but we are talking and that's better than not talking. 
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BlaqueKnight said: I know who Prussian Blue is - those two little misguided children. I'm not justifying any wrongdoings, I'm simply saying that its not nearly as simple as you are trying to make it out to be. Since I'm not familiar with this specific church, I'm not about to condemn them. Blanket Statements like "They hate gays" or "they hate blacks" are not enough for me to assume that everyone in the church feels that way. As I said, people are far more complex than that and deserve closer examination. If you believe religion is "just a club" you have a vast lack of understanding of it. Religion has existed in some form or another since the dawn of man. Its far more than just a "club". That's a vastly erroneous statement. Not everyone believes that all homosexuals are born gay. There is no solid evidence that all are. We know its the case for most but there are exceptions. Since homosexuality can be both a born and learned behavior, there is still a grey area and it is that grey area that a lot of people mull over undecidedly. Regardless, when it comes down to it people make their own choices. That is something you have to learn to accept in life. There are 6.6 Billion people on the planet and not all of us are going to agree. Most people have an understanding of good and bad because all people are different combinations of the two. People pick and choose their battles. Sheila picked hers. No matter what is said, she chose to try to do what she perceives to be something good. There is no harm in that. For the record, I never try to guess what God wants or what's okay in God's book. I assume he could care less about my insignificant ass. He's got universes to deal with. What difference does it make if homosexuality is a choice or if it's inborn? You (and for that matter, people on the pro-gay side as well) keep going back to that point as if it means something. Who cares if being gay is nature or nurture? Would, assuming it was, gayness being a choice then validate anti-gay sentiment or legislation? Or shouldn't the focus be that an entire part of society is being decried as sinners worse than all others, and in this church's case, responsible for the downfall of society? Religion is just a club, no matter how old it is. Why should or would God have any concern about what sect or denomination or religion's walls you park your butt in on Sunday? If God does indeed have bigger concerns, then why would whether or not a person attends church matter? If God is in your heart and all around you, why ally yourself with a certain religion at all? Every person in the world is capable of a close connection with the Creator, and they don't need religion to do it. Religion is a man-made organization. I'm not saying that that makes it bad or false, just unnecessary. Religion and faith, or religion and spirituality, or religion and God, are simply not the same thing. Individual people are complex, but this particular church's stance is clear-cut. They think gays are evil, and responsible for society's ills. They've said so themselves on their website, and so more likely than not also preach that from the pulpit. Where's the complexity or grey area there? How is that not evidence that they hate gay people? "Love thy neighbour" only works if you actually do. There is nothing loving about scapegoating and baiting. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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Wow. I've stayed away from this thread until now giving serious thought to what it means to me as a long time fan and a gay man. I'm saddened and disappointed that Sheila and her family would choose to participate in this event, thereby giving their implicit approval to the hateful agenda. Using prayer and blessings as validation for that hate is reprehensible and offensive. Equally offensive is saying that somehow this statement is not anti-gay: "We must stop affirming the homosexual lifestyle as an accepted behavior within society."
After serious reflection, I have decided that I will no longer support the work of the Elevate Hope Foundation. I have tried to take the approach voiced on this thread that the good that comes can outweigh the bad, but I shudder to think of the gay kid who seeks help from EHF and in turn is further traumatized simply because of who she is. At this point, given the cavalier justification that was posted on sheilae.com, I believe that supporting EHF is no different from giving money directly to any other anti-gay group. Sheila, if you're reading this, I genuinely thank you for 25 years of joy that you have given me through your music and talent. Best wishes on your continued journey with Christ. http://elmadartista.tumblr.com/ http://twitter.com/madartista | |
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what is the Elevate Hope foundation? Is that Sheila's own charity foundation that she started? | |
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SoulAlive said: what is the Elevate Hope foundation? Is that Sheila's own charity foundation that she started?
Yes, that's her charity, formerly known as Lil Angel Bunnies. | |
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madartista said: Wow. I've stayed away from this thread until now giving serious thought to what it means to me as a long time fan and a gay man. I'm saddened and disappointed that Sheila and her family would choose to participate in this event, thereby giving their implicit approval to the hateful agenda. Using prayer and blessings as validation for that hate is reprehensible and offensive. Equally offensive is saying that somehow this statement is not anti-gay: "We must stop affirming the homosexual lifestyle as an accepted behavior within society."
After serious reflection, I have decided that I will no longer support the work of the Elevate Hope Foundation. I have tried to take the approach voiced on this thread that the good that comes can outweigh the bad, but I shudder to think of the gay kid who seeks help from EHF and in turn is further traumatized simply because of who she is. At this point, given the cavalier justification that was posted on sheilae.com, I believe that supporting EHF is no different from giving money directly to any other anti-gay group. Sheila, if you're reading this, I genuinely thank you for 25 years of joy that you have given me through your music and talent. Best wishes on your continued journey with Christ. Well, done. I think you summarized very well the thoughts and views of many of Sheila's fans, myself included. Cheers.  | |
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simm0061 said: madartista said: Wow. I've stayed away from this thread until now giving serious thought to what it means to me as a long time fan and a gay man. I'm saddened and disappointed that Sheila and her family would choose to participate in this event, thereby giving their implicit approval to the hateful agenda. Using prayer and blessings as validation for that hate is reprehensible and offensive. Equally offensive is saying that somehow this statement is not anti-gay: "We must stop affirming the homosexual lifestyle as an accepted behavior within society."
After serious reflection, I have decided that I will no longer support the work of the Elevate Hope Foundation. I have tried to take the approach voiced on this thread that the good that comes can outweigh the bad, but I shudder to think of the gay kid who seeks help from EHF and in turn is further traumatized simply because of who she is. At this point, given the cavalier justification that was posted on sheilae.com, I believe that supporting EHF is no different from giving money directly to any other anti-gay group. Sheila, if you're reading this, I genuinely thank you for 25 years of joy that you have given me through your music and talent. Best wishes on your continued journey with Christ. Well, done. I think you summarized very well the thoughts and views of many of Sheila's fans, myself included. Cheers. Here here.... Well said. I do wonder though what one of her employees thinks of all this, especially since she is a lesbian (the employee, that is). Come to think of it, I do believe she posts on this site also....Hmmmmm, all I wonder...The truth is all we need, the truth will set us free! "Life is a Bowl of Cherries, but this is just the pits" | |
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madartista said: Wow. I've stayed away from this thread until now giving serious thought to what it means to me as a long time fan and a gay man. I'm saddened and disappointed that Sheila and her family would choose to participate in this event, thereby giving their implicit approval to the hateful agenda. Using prayer and blessings as validation for that hate is reprehensible and offensive. Equally offensive is saying that somehow this statement is not anti-gay: "We must stop affirming the homosexual lifestyle as an accepted behavior within society."
After serious reflection, I have decided that I will no longer support the work of the Elevate Hope Foundation. I have tried to take the approach voiced on this thread that the good that comes can outweigh the bad, but I shudder to think of the gay kid who seeks help from EHF and in turn is further traumatized simply because of who she is. At this point, given the cavalier justification that was posted on sheilae.com, I believe that supporting EHF is no different from giving money directly to any other anti-gay group. Sheila, if you're reading this, I genuinely thank you for 25 years of joy that you have given me through your music and talent. Best wishes on your continued journey with Christ.  Thank you.
I'm not sure what saddens me more about this: That Sheila's as good as given a nod of approval for this group's bigotry, or that there are people defending it as their "opinion" and a "small detail". 
Homophobia is alive and well, kids. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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Interestingly, the statement on SheilaE.com that I had posted a few days ago is no longer up there.
Not sure if that's because the event is over, or the "controversy" of this thread. Maybe I'm in denial, but I'd like to think that she was not aware of the Revive group's hateful statements on their own website. I just find it hard to believe that Sheila or Lynn would knowingly support anti-gay groups. |
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What did your statement say? [Edited 10/2/08 6:32am] | |
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SoulAlive said: What did your statement say?
[Edited 10/2/08 6:32am] It wasn't "My" statement. I posted the statement that was up on SheilaE.com. It's in reply #31 of this thread. |
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GaryMF said: SoulAlive said: What did your statement say?
[Edited 10/2/08 6:32am] It wasn't "My" statement. I posted the statement that was up on SheilaE.com. It's in reply #31 of this thread. Oh  | |
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GaryMF said: Interestingly, the statement on SheilaE.com that I had posted a few days ago is no longer up there.
Not sure if that's because the event is over, or the "controversy" of this thread. Maybe I'm in denial, but I'd like to think that she was not aware of the Revive group's hateful statements on their own website. I just find it hard to believe that Sheila or Lynn would knowingly support anti-gay groups. I find it hard to believe too. I wonder why she took the statement down. | |
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Sheila knew full well what kind of party that was.
Look at the old news from July 28th on her website. http://www.sheilae.com/wh...ndex.shtml 07/28/08 - Helpline TV
Sheila E. appeared on Helpline TV with Morris Cerullo on July 26, 2008. Past episodes of Helpline TV can be watched online at Helpline TV on Demand. 
You wouldn't expect a TV Evangelist to give anything away for free (other than false promises and hope) but a quick search of the Helpline TV website reveals this: https://www.helplinetv.co...t=1&page=1 I Was 'Gay' - The Testimony of Stephen Bennett
This is the testimony of Stephen Bennett, wherein he tells you what God says about homosexuality, how no one is born 'gay,' and through Jesus Christ, complete change is completely possible! Stephen presents the Gospel and gives you an opportunity to pray and receive Christ, as well as find out further information on the subject of homosexuality. Our FREE gift to you! 
I feel sorry for Sheila if the rumors are true and she's found it difficult to reconcile her bisexuality with her new-found faith, to the point of associating with vile hate-mongers. Sad, sad, sad. You can call me Wex. | |
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