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PrintableJudasLChrist said: DesireeNevermind said: We will have to agree to disagree then. I don't think its a natural comparison at all and there are plenty of other groups that could have been chosen as a comparison but I think its like someone said earlier, the gays like other groups choose the black struggle/plight to bring seriousness to their own movement. Gays weren't forcibly removed from another continet and robbed of their language, name, culture, religion, laws, and freedom nor have they had their families split and sold off in bondage and forced to be subservient to a group who were already in the habit of discriminating against others (native americans). They never had separate drinking fountains, public lynchings, separate schools and medical facilities that were designed to be mediocre at best. Never been denied the right to vote, I mean jeez I could go on. I think when gays as a minority group try and say, "we've had it as hard as you" to black people how could they be taken seriously? Actually,gay and lesbian people and those perceived to be gay, such as transgendered folks, have had it quite bad throughout modern history. You want to say that gays have never been lynched? Have never been dis-included from their culture or religion? Have never been denied adequate health care and access to housing? Gay people have been through all of that and everything you say. Here's the rub, though: Black people are gay people, too. And the argument you are making, which is about slavery, doesn't hold, unless you want to deny that no slave was ever gay. And beyond that, white skinned people were slaves throughout history as well. Look at Cuba, and European serfdom. I think that white people, regardless of sexual identity, experience the benefits of white privilege. But what does white privilege matter when you have been fired from your teaching job because you are gay? Or someone beats you to a pulp and ties you to fence crucifixion style and leaves you to die? Or you find out that your happens-to-be-gay father's new psychopath neighbors are sic-ing their pitbulls on your father and his partner (your other father) whenever they come out of their house? It may be difficult to hear some white gay person who may oblivious to the conditions of white supremacy rant on about the oppression of sexual minorities. But you got to see it for what it is. Oppression of sexual minorities is as real as racism. I've heard black people get up in arms many times about comparing gay struggle and black struggle. I agree that the struggles are different and work different culturally sometimes, but the difference is not worth noting on a scale of "who suffers more". Often I see this resistance to acknowledge that gay struggle is on par with the struggle against racism to be a function of homophobia. The subtext is that somehow connecting Black liberation to gay liberation somehow brings black people down. Persons focused on gay liberation may invoke the perceived successes of the Civil Rights movement, and I think that makes sense. The civil rights movement is inspiring and speaks to the best of who we are as people. Also, it seems that people don't take gay struggle so seriously. They see it as a religious issue and not a civil rights issue. Comparing gay liberation to black struggle helps to reframe the the gay issue as a matter of civil rights. Most Americans are offended by racism, but are not as far along in interrogating their own discomfort with homosexuality. [Edited 9/23/08 12:23pm] We aren't talking about what's happened globally but what has happened in THIS COUNTRY. This started cuz Sheila is playing at this particular American church not some church in Uganda. And IT IS A SCALE of who suffers or more else why would gays feel the need to compare their struggle to that of blacks as opposed to women, native americans or immigrants - have these groups not experienced discrimination on a historic level? Your last statement about people not taking gay struggle seriously just affirms this point. How else do you get people to take a struggle seriously unless you compare it to a struggle they already take seriously. They don't compare their struggle to that of Jews and the Holocaust. This in my mind is a more accurate comparison since the Nazi doctrine specifically targeted homosexuals along with Jews and the mentally challenged, however if gays made this comparison there would be a backlash greater than what you may hear from Blacks. Most minority groups have benefited by using the civil rights struggle of blacks in this country to further their own cause/plight and yet many of these groups end up benefiting more than the blacks do. Just look at the statistics among all minority groups in terms of household income, education, incarceration, etc. As far as some gays being black, well yeah but what does that have to do with anything? You had some gays being white slavemasters - so what? There is even discriminatin of gays by other gays! I think when tackling discriminatin of any kind, you just can't base your argument or rationale on what some other group has experienced because it really isn't your experience. It pleases me none to say this but I do think in many people's minds comparing black liberation to gay liberation does bring black people down. I've heard both blacks and whites, particulary those defining themselves as christian conservatives make this argument. The best way to tackle discriminatin is not be piggybacking on what some other group has endured but rather approach it as a human and american issue. America is supposed to be the land of the free so why not challenge anti-gay groups, who often tout themselves as being patriotic, on this very point! To argue that you can't discriminate against gays b/c you can't do it against blacks doesn't bode very well. Kinda reminds me of Vicente Fox saying we need illegal immigrants b/c they do the jobs that even Blacks won't do. WTF? Like blacks are supposed to pick veggies and clean bathrooms? Back to Sheila, I could care less if she's gay, bi or asexual, I don't think she's praying away any gay but I do think she must on some level agree with that church that there is moral decay in America. She may need the money although I doubt they pay that well but someone ought to confront her on what she thinks about religion and homosexuality b4 we make our own assumptions. | |
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DesireeNevermind said: We aren't talking about what's happened globally but what has happened in THIS COUNTRY. This started cuz Sheila is playing at this particular American church not some church in Uganda. And IT IS A SCALE of who suffers or more else why would gays feel the need to compare their struggle to that of blacks as opposed to women, native americans or immigrants - have these groups not experienced discrimination on a historic level? Your last statement about people not taking gay struggle seriously just affirms this point. How else do you get people to take a struggle seriously unless you compare it to a struggle they already take seriously. They don't compare their struggle to that of Jews and the Holocaust. This in my mind is a more accurate comparison since the Nazi doctrine specifically targeted homosexuals along with Jews and the mentally challenged, however if gays made this comparison there would be a backlash greater than what you may hear from Blacks. Most minority groups have benefited by using the civil rights struggle of blacks in this country to further their own cause/plight and yet many of these groups end up benefiting more than the blacks do. Just look at the statistics among all minority groups in terms of household income, education, incarceration, etc. As far as some gays being black, well yeah but what does that have to do with anything? You had some gays being white slavemasters - so what? There is even discriminatin of gays by other gays! I think when tackling discriminatin of any kind, you just can't base your argument or rationale on what some other group has experienced because it really isn't your experience. It pleases me none to say this but I do think in many people's minds comparing black liberation to gay liberation does bring black people down. I've heard both blacks and whites, particulary those defining themselves as christian conservatives make this argument. The best way to tackle discriminatin is not be piggybacking on what some other group has endured but rather approach it as a human and american issue. America is supposed to be the land of the free so why not challenge anti-gay groups, who often tout themselves as being patriotic, on this very point! To argue that you can't discriminate against gays b/c you can't do it against blacks doesn't bode very well. Kinda reminds me of Vicente Fox saying we need illegal immigrants b/c they do the jobs that even Blacks won't do. WTF? Like blacks are supposed to pick veggies and clean bathrooms? Back to Sheila, I could care less if she's gay, bi or asexual, I don't think she's praying away any gay but I do think she must on some level agree with that church that there is moral decay in America. She may need the money although I doubt they pay that well but someone ought to confront her on what she thinks about religion and homosexuality b4 we make our own assumptions. I was very much talking about things that happened in the U.S. I guess the piggy-backing comment really bothers me. The fact is that gay liberation and black liberation are very similar movements. I believe that to be true. To deny this is most often a function of homophobia. All of our struggles are tied together. I believe that Dr. King said something like that. And Shelia is ... in the wrong for playing at this thing. | |
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JudasLChrist said: DesireeNevermind said: We aren't talking about what's happened globally but what has happened in THIS COUNTRY. This started cuz Sheila is playing at this particular American church not some church in Uganda. And IT IS A SCALE of who suffers or more else why would gays feel the need to compare their struggle to that of blacks as opposed to women, native americans or immigrants - have these groups not experienced discrimination on a historic level? Your last statement about people not taking gay struggle seriously just affirms this point. How else do you get people to take a struggle seriously unless you compare it to a struggle they already take seriously. They don't compare their struggle to that of Jews and the Holocaust. This in my mind is a more accurate comparison since the Nazi doctrine specifically targeted homosexuals along with Jews and the mentally challenged, however if gays made this comparison there would be a backlash greater than what you may hear from Blacks. Most minority groups have benefited by using the civil rights struggle of blacks in this country to further their own cause/plight and yet many of these groups end up benefiting more than the blacks do. Just look at the statistics among all minority groups in terms of household income, education, incarceration, etc. As far as some gays being black, well yeah but what does that have to do with anything? You had some gays being white slavemasters - so what? There is even discriminatin of gays by other gays! I think when tackling discriminatin of any kind, you just can't base your argument or rationale on what some other group has experienced because it really isn't your experience. It pleases me none to say this but I do think in many people's minds comparing black liberation to gay liberation does bring black people down. I've heard both blacks and whites, particulary those defining themselves as christian conservatives make this argument. The best way to tackle discriminatin is not be piggybacking on what some other group has endured but rather approach it as a human and american issue. America is supposed to be the land of the free so why not challenge anti-gay groups, who often tout themselves as being patriotic, on this very point! To argue that you can't discriminate against gays b/c you can't do it against blacks doesn't bode very well. Kinda reminds me of Vicente Fox saying we need illegal immigrants b/c they do the jobs that even Blacks won't do. WTF? Like blacks are supposed to pick veggies and clean bathrooms? Back to Sheila, I could care less if she's gay, bi or asexual, I don't think she's praying away any gay but I do think she must on some level agree with that church that there is moral decay in America. She may need the money although I doubt they pay that well but someone ought to confront her on what she thinks about religion and homosexuality b4 we make our own assumptions. I was very much talking about things that happened in the U.S. I guess the piggy-backing comment really bothers me. The fact is that gay liberation and black liberation are very similar movements. I believe that to be true. To deny this is most often a function of homophobia. All of our struggles are tied together. I believe that Dr. King said something like that. And Shelia is ... in the wrong for playing at this thing. Like I said, we agree to disagree. Don't be bothered hon, there will always be people of opposing views and its kind of what makes our country special, we don't always have to agree or see things the exact same way. I wouldn't want to live in a world of drones or a hivemind! I don't think ALL of our struggles are tied together and if they were thats about to be one big messy knot. MLK was good but I always fancied MalcX. Funny tho, they both mirrored each other in the end. Back to Sheila, what if she played in an effort to change the viewpoints of that church? We don't know truly her motives so we can't judge her flat out. I mean, as far as we know its just a performance, not like she's preaching at the podium. | |
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DesireeNevermind said: JudasLChrist said: I was very much talking about things that happened in the U.S. I guess the piggy-backing comment really bothers me. The fact is that gay liberation and black liberation are very similar movements. I believe that to be true. To deny this is most often a function of homophobia. All of our struggles are tied together. I believe that Dr. King said something like that. And Shelia is ... in the wrong for playing at this thing. Like I said, we agree to disagree. Don't be bothered hon, there will always be people of opposing views and its kind of what makes our country special, we don't always have to agree or see things the exact same way. I wouldn't want to live in a world of drones or a hivemind! I don't think ALL of our struggles are tied together and if they were thats about to be one big messy knot. MLK was good but I always fancied MalcX. Funny tho, they both mirrored each other in the end. Back to Sheila, what if she played in an effort to change the viewpoints of that church? We don't know truly her motives so we can't judge her flat out. I mean, as far as we know its just a performance, not like she's preaching at the podium. She's still supporting a group that's preaching hate and hiding behind their Book to support it. There is nothing in the world that can make that okay. This isn't a matter of opinion or belief, it's a matter of hatred and bigotry. If this were any other group the church was scapegoating for society's ills, no one would be defending their or Sheila's actions as a matter of "belief", and brushing it off as no big deal. [Edited 9/23/08 19:49pm] "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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meow85 said: DesireeNevermind said: Like I said, we agree to disagree. Don't be bothered hon, there will always be people of opposing views and its kind of what makes our country special, we don't always have to agree or see things the exact same way. I wouldn't want to live in a world of drones or a hivemind! I don't think ALL of our struggles are tied together and if they were thats about to be one big messy knot. MLK was good but I always fancied MalcX. Funny tho, they both mirrored each other in the end. Back to Sheila, what if she played in an effort to change the viewpoints of that church? We don't know truly her motives so we can't judge her flat out. I mean, as far as we know its just a performance, not like she's preaching at the podium. She's still supporting a group that's preaching hate and hiding behind their Book to support it. There is nothing in the world that can make that okay. This isn't a matter of opinion or belief, it's a matter of hatred and bigotry. If this were any other group the church was scapegoating for society's ills, no one would be defending their or Sheila's actions as a matter of "belief", and brushing it off as no big deal. [Edited 9/23/08 19:49pm] | |
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DesireeNevermind said: And IT IS A SCALE of who suffers or more else why would gays feel the need to compare their struggle to that of blacks as opposed to women, native americans or immigrants - have these groups not experienced discrimination on a historic level? Your last statement about people not taking gay struggle seriously just affirms this point. How else do you get people to take a struggle seriously unless you compare it to a struggle they already take seriously. They don't compare their struggle to that of Jews and the Holocaust. This in my mind is a more accurate comparison since the Nazi doctrine specifically targeted homosexuals along with Jews and the mentally challenged, however if gays made this comparison there would be a backlash greater than what you may hear from Blacks. Most minority groups have benefited by using the civil rights struggle of blacks in this country to further their own cause/plight and yet many of these groups end up benefiting more than the blacks do. Just look at the statistics among all minority groups in terms of household income, education, incarceration, etc.
So let's see, according to this post, it's all about who suffers MORE?? So if you're not the worst off you should just shut up and stop complaining?? And you assume that if gay rights compared their plight to Jews there would be a greater backlash?? Wow. No you're starting to sound not only prejudiced against gays but also against Jews. And the Black Civil Rights Movement in the 60's often compared their plight to the plight of the ancient Israelites("the Promoised land" etc.) so how ironic that you would make the above statemnt Did it ever occur to you that the reason people make the comparison to Black oppression is because they reprsent the LARGEST group in this country that has been discriminated against? Thus, it's a logical and sensible compariosn. It doesn't mean both groups experience the EXACT SAME TYPE of discrimination.... but discrimination is discrimination and if you are against one type, you should be against all types. Bottom line.....the sentiment that "if you compare gays to blacks it is an insult to Blacks" is just balatant homophobia. Period. And quite hypocritical. [Edited 9/23/08 22:43pm] [Edited 9/23/08 22:44pm]  |
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you guys have been sidetracked by the gay and black comparisons.
I still lets pin the evils of the world on the republicans and the evangelicals. 
Sheila i know youre here reading this thread, dingbats in the red states (bible belt) got us in this mess. | |
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GaryMF said: DesireeNevermind said: And IT IS A SCALE of who suffers or more else why would gays feel the need to compare their struggle to that of blacks as opposed to women, native americans or immigrants - have these groups not experienced discrimination on a historic level? Your last statement about people not taking gay struggle seriously just affirms this point. How else do you get people to take a struggle seriously unless you compare it to a struggle they already take seriously. They don't compare their struggle to that of Jews and the Holocaust. This in my mind is a more accurate comparison since the Nazi doctrine specifically targeted homosexuals along with Jews and the mentally challenged, however if gays made this comparison there would be a backlash greater than what you may hear from Blacks. Most minority groups have benefited by using the civil rights struggle of blacks in this country to further their own cause/plight and yet many of these groups end up benefiting more than the blacks do. Just look at the statistics among all minority groups in terms of household income, education, incarceration, etc.
So let's see, according to this post, it's all about who suffers MORE?? So if you're not the worst off you should just shut up and stop complaining?? And you assume that if gay rights compared their plight to Jews there would be a greater backlash?? Wow. No you're starting to sound not only prejudiced against gays but also against Jews. And the Black Civil Rights Movement in the 60's often compared their plight to the plight of the ancient Israelites("the Promoised land" etc.) so how ironic that you would make the above statemnt Did it ever occur to you that the reason people make the comparison to Black oppression is because they reprsent the LARGEST group in this country that has been discriminated against? Thus, it's a logical and sensible compariosn. It doesn't mean both groups experience the EXACT SAME TYPE of discrimination.... but discrimination is discrimination and if you are against one type, you should be against all types. Bottom line.....the sentiment that "if you compare gays to blacks it is an insult to Blacks" is just balatant homophobia. Period. And quite hypocritical. [Edited 9/23/08 22:43pm] [Edited 9/23/08 22:44pm] Not only are you getting way too heated but you're not even paying close attention to what's been posted. I will clarify for you what I can and then I gotta shut it down cuz this has strayed far off the whole Sheila topic. Okay, this post at least on my end is not about who suffers more. But since you are bringing it up. We all don't suffer the same - PERIOD! I as an american woman do not suffer the same as a woman from IRAQ or the Congo. Does that mean I ignore their suffering? Of course not! But I'm not about to compare my struggle with theirs or vice versa! Now please, don't be so petty as to call me prejudice just because I don't agree with you. By doing that you put yourself in the same category as that Church which you dislike so much. Plus my jewish and gay relatives wouldn't appreciate it. So you think the comparison between blacks and gays is logical and sensible because blacks are the LARGEST discriminated group? You just affirmed my earlier point about why gays chose the black plight to begin with. You go with what everyone else takes seriously. Blacks are the most visible minority and have endured the harshest long standing institutionalized discrimination in this country and in spite of that, much progress and success especially on the political front has been made. This isn't about logical/sensible but calculating/political. I will say it again, gays could have chosen any number of minority groups to compare their plight to but they chose the one that has the biggest bite and has garnered the most attention here and abroad! You mention the civil rights movement of the 60s being compared to the plight of the israelites. Another calculating/political choice but not necessarily logical and sensible IMO. Now while I don't agree with the comparison I understand why it was used - you have religious leaders heading up this movement and borrowing non-violent approaches from Ghandi - their best way to get thru to whites at that time was to use religion and the bible. Clarification needed - your last comment about Blacks feeiling insulted by a comparison between them and gays did not originate with me, i merely responded to it by saying its probably true and I base that on not only hearing others comment on the comparison thru various media outlets but also on Blacks being so heavily involved in religion and the church. And aren't we dealing with a Church here and Sheila's performance at it? Now getting back to Sheila.. For all those so ready and willing to condemn her for her performance, I say reserve judgement until you hear her say in no uncertain terms why she did it. Obviously there is something about this Church that draws her. Maybe she is planning on enlightening them, maybe they paid her a huge wad of cash or maybe their other deeds outshine their views on homosexuality. I don't no and at this point don't care cuz I have luv for the Chica and she's an awesome musician; the Church is damn lucky to have her. I'm sure she will provide some clarity later on and until then let's not hate on her. ~peace, deuces | |
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jodi081630 said: meow85 said: She's still supporting a group that's preaching hate and hiding behind their Book to support it. There is nothing in the world that can make that okay. This isn't a matter of opinion or belief, it's a matter of hatred and bigotry. If this were any other group the church was scapegoating for society's ills, no one would be defending their or Sheila's actions as a matter of "belief", and brushing it off as no big deal. [Edited 9/23/08 19:49pm] They can't if they have even an ounce of honesty in them. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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DesireeNevermind said: GaryMF said: So let's see, according to this post, it's all about who suffers MORE?? So if you're not the worst off you should just shut up and stop complaining?? And you assume that if gay rights compared their plight to Jews there would be a greater backlash?? Wow. No you're starting to sound not only prejudiced against gays but also against Jews. And the Black Civil Rights Movement in the 60's often compared their plight to the plight of the ancient Israelites("the Promoised land" etc.) so how ironic that you would make the above statemnt Did it ever occur to you that the reason people make the comparison to Black oppression is because they reprsent the LARGEST group in this country that has been discriminated against? Thus, it's a logical and sensible compariosn. It doesn't mean both groups experience the EXACT SAME TYPE of discrimination.... but discrimination is discrimination and if you are against one type, you should be against all types. Bottom line.....the sentiment that "if you compare gays to blacks it is an insult to Blacks" is just balatant homophobia. Period. And quite hypocritical. [Edited 9/23/08 22:43pm] [Edited 9/23/08 22:44pm] Not only are you getting way too heated but you're not even paying close attention to what's been posted. I will clarify for you what I can and then I gotta shut it down cuz this has strayed far off the whole Sheila topic. Okay, this post at least on my end is not about who suffers more. But since you are bringing it up. We all don't suffer the same - PERIOD! I as an american woman do not suffer the same as a woman from IRAQ or the Congo. Does that mean I ignore their suffering? Of course not! But I'm not about to compare my struggle with theirs or vice versa! Now please, don't be so petty as to call me prejudice just because I don't agree with you. By doing that you put yourself in the same category as that Church which you dislike so much. Plus my jewish and gay relatives wouldn't appreciate it. So you think the comparison between blacks and gays is logical and sensible because blacks are the LARGEST discriminated group? You just affirmed my earlier point about why gays chose the black plight to begin with. You go with what everyone else takes seriously. Blacks are the most visible minority and have endured the harshest long standing institutionalized discrimination in this country and in spite of that, much progress and success especially on the political front has been made. This isn't about logical/sensible but calculating/political. I will say it again, gays could have chosen any number of minority groups to compare their plight to but they chose the one that has the biggest bite and has garnered the most attention here and abroad! You mention the civil rights movement of the 60s being compared to the plight of the israelites. Another calculating/political choice but not necessarily logical and sensible IMO. Now while I don't agree with the comparison I understand why it was used - you have religious leaders heading up this movement and borrowing non-violent approaches from Ghandi - their best way to get thru to whites at that time was to use religion and the bible. Clarification needed - your last comment about Blacks feeiling insulted by a comparison between them and gays did not originate with me, i merely responded to it by saying its probably true and I base that on not only hearing others comment on the comparison thru various media outlets but also on Blacks being so heavily involved in religion and the church. And aren't we dealing with a Church here and Sheila's performance at it? Now getting back to Sheila.. For all those so ready and willing to condemn her for her performance, I say reserve judgement until you hear her say in no uncertain terms why she did it. Obviously there is something about this Church that draws her. Maybe she is planning on enlightening them, maybe they paid her a huge wad of cash or maybe their other deeds outshine their views on homosexuality. I don't no and at this point don't care cuz I have luv for the Chica and she's an awesome musician; the Church is damn lucky to have her. I'm sure she will provide some clarity later on and until then let's not hate on her. ~peace, deuces I can't fucking believe you would actually defend a hate group like this. How can preaching hate and scapegoating an entire segment of the population possibly be outweighed by anything? So what if they spend their free time helping the homeless or whatever. It doesn't change the fact that they're preaching that an entire group of people is inferior and directly responsible for the wrongs in society. But I guess it's acceptable to hate homos. After all, it's their "opinion". Dumb fucks might as well hate redheads or lefties, for all the sense or good it makes. I can't forgive Sheila for this move. Even if she was ignorant of their bigotry, I wouldn't consider it an excuse. A person should always make sure they know who they're associating themself with. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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meow85 said: DesireeNevermind said: Not only are you getting way too heated but you're not even paying close attention to what's been posted. I will clarify for you what I can and then I gotta shut it down cuz this has strayed far off the whole Sheila topic. Okay, this post at least on my end is not about who suffers more. But since you are bringing it up. We all don't suffer the same - PERIOD! I as an american woman do not suffer the same as a woman from IRAQ or the Congo. Does that mean I ignore their suffering? Of course not! But I'm not about to compare my struggle with theirs or vice versa! Now please, don't be so petty as to call me prejudice just because I don't agree with you. By doing that you put yourself in the same category as that Church which you dislike so much. Plus my jewish and gay relatives wouldn't appreciate it. So you think the comparison between blacks and gays is logical and sensible because blacks are the LARGEST discriminated group? You just affirmed my earlier point about why gays chose the black plight to begin with. You go with what everyone else takes seriously. Blacks are the most visible minority and have endured the harshest long standing institutionalized discrimination in this country and in spite of that, much progress and success especially on the political front has been made. This isn't about logical/sensible but calculating/political. I will say it again, gays could have chosen any number of minority groups to compare their plight to but they chose the one that has the biggest bite and has garnered the most attention here and abroad! You mention the civil rights movement of the 60s being compared to the plight of the israelites. Another calculating/political choice but not necessarily logical and sensible IMO. Now while I don't agree with the comparison I understand why it was used - you have religious leaders heading up this movement and borrowing non-violent approaches from Ghandi - their best way to get thru to whites at that time was to use religion and the bible. Clarification needed - your last comment about Blacks feeiling insulted by a comparison between them and gays did not originate with me, i merely responded to it by saying its probably true and I base that on not only hearing others comment on the comparison thru various media outlets but also on Blacks being so heavily involved in religion and the church. And aren't we dealing with a Church here and Sheila's performance at it? Now getting back to Sheila.. For all those so ready and willing to condemn her for her performance, I say reserve judgement until you hear her say in no uncertain terms why she did it. Obviously there is something about this Church that draws her. Maybe she is planning on enlightening them, maybe they paid her a huge wad of cash or maybe their other deeds outshine their views on homosexuality. I don't no and at this point don't care cuz I have luv for the Chica and she's an awesome musician; the Church is damn lucky to have her. I'm sure she will provide some clarity later on and until then let's not hate on her. ~peace, deuces I can't fucking believe you would actually defend a hate group like this. How can preaching hate and scapegoating an entire segment of the population possibly be outweighed by anything? So what if they spend their free time helping the homeless or whatever. It doesn't change the fact that they're preaching that an entire group of people is inferior and directly responsible for the wrongs in society. But I guess it's acceptable to hate homos. After all, it's their "opinion". Dumb fucks might as well hate redheads or lefties, for all the sense or good it makes. I can't forgive Sheila for this move. Even if she was ignorant of their bigotry, I wouldn't consider it an excuse. A person should always make sure they know who they're associating themself with. You're not big on facts are you?  I'm not defending anyone exept Sheila and as far as I know she has not verbalized or exhibited hate for anyone. I don't know this Church or any of their participants to defend or condemn them. I no nothing about them saying that any group is inferior and directly responsible for the wrongs of society - you couldn't pin that on any one group PERIOD. You'd better post some facts and quotes from Sheila AND this Church before you go accusing them of such things.
A person should always make sure they know who they're associating themself with? Fair enough but easier said than done. I will add that you should always get full information (preferably from the entity) before you go accusing a person or group of open and outright maliciousness and hatred. And just so you know and understand, that last statement is recommendation for and a defense of EVERYONE! | |
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P.S.
This is a snippet from the article where Mayor Coss declines to speak at this Church event: ...on the site, included the removal of God from society; "so-called social problems" like violence, rape and abortion; disintegration of the traditional family; a spirit of selfishness; Supreme Court decisions on abortion and separation of church and state; and the "homosexual explosion." "Enough is enough," it says. "The comparisons of Sodom and Gomorrah to the United States are, unfortunately, accurate. We must stop affirming the homosexual lifestyle as an accepted behavior within society." Martin said Monday that he respects Coss' decision and is sorry for including the line about a "homosexual explosion" when "sexual immorality" would have been more accurate. He said he does not advocate a "hate message," but "will not compromise the word of God" that says "marriage is between a man and a woman." IN THAT ARTICLE, I DIDN'T SEE ANY HATEFUL QUOTE FROM SHEILA E AND I REALLY DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING HATEFUL FROM THE CHURCH. IGNORANT? SURE, BUT HATEFUL NO. MAYBE THERE IS MORE OUT THERE ON WHAT THEY HAVE PREACHED BUT SOMEONE ELSE CAN GO LOOK IT UP. WHAT'S CLEARLY EXPRESSED IS THAT THEY DON'T LIKE THE SUPREME COURT UPHOLDING ROE V. WADE OR SUPPORTING GAY MARRIAGE, ALTHOUGH I THOUGHT THE LATTER WAS ON A STATE BY STATE BASIS. SORRY FOR THE CAPS, KEYBOARD STUCK. I DON'T SEE HATRED BUT JUST THEIR OWN OPINIONS BASED ON THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEF AND FREEDOM OF RELIGION IS PROTECTED. NOW I FOR ONE DO CONSIDER RAPE AND VIOLENCE CONTRIBUTING FACTORS TO A DISINTEGRATING SOCIETY BUT THIS ARTICLE DIDN'T ADDRESS THAT PORTION NOR DID THE MAYOR. SO ONE CAN INFER THAT IF THE CHURCH DIDN'T SAY HOMOSEXUAL EXPLOSION ( WUTEVA THAT MEANS) THEN THE MAYOR WOULD HAVE SHOWN UP TO SPEAK. NOW THAT IS MORE TELLING THAN SHEILA PERFORMING. IF I WERE THE MAYOR I WOULD HAVE APPEARED AND LET ALL ATTENDEES KNOW WHAT I STOULD FOR AND CALLED THE CHURCH ON ANYTHING I DISAGREED WITH. | |
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DesireeNevermind said: GaryMF said: So let's see, according to this post, it's all about who suffers MORE?? So if you're not the worst off you should just shut up and stop complaining?? And you assume that if gay rights compared their plight to Jews there would be a greater backlash?? Wow. No you're starting to sound not only prejudiced against gays but also against Jews. And the Black Civil Rights Movement in the 60's often compared their plight to the plight of the ancient Israelites("the Promoised land" etc.) so how ironic that you would make the above statemnt Did it ever occur to you that the reason people make the comparison to Black oppression is because they reprsent the LARGEST group in this country that has been discriminated against? Thus, it's a logical and sensible compariosn. It doesn't mean both groups experience the EXACT SAME TYPE of discrimination.... but discrimination is discrimination and if you are against one type, you should be against all types. Bottom line.....the sentiment that "if you compare gays to blacks it is an insult to Blacks" is just balatant homophobia. Period. And quite hypocritical. [Edited 9/23/08 22:43pm] [Edited 9/23/08 22:44pm] Not only are you getting way too heated but you're not even paying close attention to what's been posted. I will clarify for you what I can and then I gotta shut it down cuz this has strayed far off the whole Sheila topic. Okay, this post at least on my end is not about who suffers more. But since you are bringing it up. We all don't suffer the same - PERIOD! I as an american woman do not suffer the same as a woman from IRAQ or the Congo. Does that mean I ignore their suffering? Of course not! But I'm not about to compare my struggle with theirs or vice versa! Now please, don't be so petty as to call me prejudice just because I don't agree with you. By doing that you put yourself in the same category as that Church which you dislike so much. Plus my jewish and gay relatives wouldn't appreciate it. So you think the comparison between blacks and gays is logical and sensible because blacks are the LARGEST discriminated group? You just affirmed my earlier point about why gays chose the black plight to begin with. You go with what everyone else takes seriously. Blacks are the most visible minority and have endured the harshest long standing institutionalized discrimination in this country and in spite of that, much progress and success especially on the political front has been made. This isn't about logical/sensible but calculating/political. I will say it again, gays could have chosen any number of minority groups to compare their plight to but they chose the one that has the biggest bite and has garnered the most attention here and abroad! You mention the civil rights movement of the 60s being compared to the plight of the israelites. Another calculating/political choice but not necessarily logical and sensible IMO. Now while I don't agree with the comparison I understand why it was used - you have religious leaders heading up this movement and borrowing non-violent approaches from Ghandi - their best way to get thru to whites at that time was to use religion and the bible. Clarification needed - your last comment about Blacks feeiling insulted by a comparison between them and gays did not originate with me, i merely responded to it by saying its probably true and I base that on not only hearing others comment on the comparison thru various media outlets but also on Blacks being so heavily involved in religion and the church. And aren't we dealing with a Church here and Sheila's performance at it? Now getting back to Sheila.. For all those so ready and willing to condemn her for her performance, I say reserve judgement until you hear her say in no uncertain terms why she did it. Obviously there is something about this Church that draws her. Maybe she is planning on enlightening them, maybe they paid her a huge wad of cash or maybe their other deeds outshine their views on homosexuality. I don't no and at this point don't care cuz I have luv for the Chica and she's an awesome musician; the Church is damn lucky to have her. I'm sure she will provide some clarity later on and until then let's not hate on her. ~peace, deuces I'm sorry if I attributed the comment about Blacks being insulted by being compared to gays to you. Nevertheless, your post contains many contracitoins in itself (not about who suffers more, than saying who did suffer more etc.), and you have no idea what I think of the Church so you're jumping to lots of conclusions, such as the "political/calculated" assumnptions. It's not a huge leap that if we're taling about discrimination in the US, that people would thnk of discrimination aainst blacks. To assume it's calculated is just that. your assumption. you and i are probably on the same page on some of this (I hope)..... like everyone suffers differently but all suffering is wrong. i also am not hating on Sheila. Rather than this particular group that is espousing hate. I was the one who posted Sheila's response from her website to try and defend her. |
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DesireeNevermind said: meow85 said: I can't fucking believe you would actually defend a hate group like this. How can preaching hate and scapegoating an entire segment of the population possibly be outweighed by anything? So what if they spend their free time helping the homeless or whatever. It doesn't change the fact that they're preaching that an entire group of people is inferior and directly responsible for the wrongs in society. But I guess it's acceptable to hate homos. After all, it's their "opinion". Dumb fucks might as well hate redheads or lefties, for all the sense or good it makes. I can't forgive Sheila for this move. Even if she was ignorant of their bigotry, I wouldn't consider it an excuse. A person should always make sure they know who they're associating themself with. You're not big on facts are you? I'm not defending anyone exept Sheila and as far as I know she has not verbalized or exhibited hate for anyone. I don't know this Church or any of their participants to defend or condemn them. I no nothing about them saying that any group is inferior and directly responsible for the wrongs of society - you couldn't pin that on any one group PERIOD. You'd better post some facts and quotes from Sheila AND this Church before you go accusing them of such things.
A person should always make sure they know who they're associating themself with? Fair enough but easier said than done. I will add that you should always get full information (preferably from the entity) before you go accusing a person or group of open and outright maliciousness and hatred. And just so you know and understand, that last statement is recommendation for and a defense of EVERYONE! This is directly from their website, on a page detailing what's wrong with America why they're holding a revival: . Homosexual " Explosion" Enough is enough. The comparisons of Sodom and Gomorrah to the United States are, unfortunately, accurate. We must stop affirming the homosexual lifestyle as an accepted behavior within society. http://www.revivesantafe....what_vital Is that vague to you, for some reason? How is that in any way defensible? This "church" is a hate group. Sheila's own response failed to address what they've said, and silence is as good as complicity. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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DesireeNevermind said: P.S.
This is a snippet from the article where Mayor Coss declines to speak at this Church event: ...on the site, included the removal of God from society; "so-called social problems" like violence, rape and abortion; disintegration of the traditional family; a spirit of selfishness; Supreme Court decisions on abortion and separation of church and state; and the "homosexual explosion." "Enough is enough," it says. "The comparisons of Sodom and Gomorrah to the United States are, unfortunately, accurate. We must stop affirming the homosexual lifestyle as an accepted behavior within society." Martin said Monday that he respects Coss' decision and is sorry for including the line about a "homosexual explosion" when "sexual immorality" would have been more accurate. He said he does not advocate a "hate message," but "will not compromise the word of God" that says "marriage is between a man and a woman." IN THAT ARTICLE, I DIDN'T SEE ANY HATEFUL QUOTE FROM SHEILA E AND I REALLY DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING HATEFUL FROM THE CHURCH. IGNORANT? SURE, BUT HATEFUL NO. MAYBE THERE IS MORE OUT THERE ON WHAT THEY HAVE PREACHED BUT SOMEONE ELSE CAN GO LOOK IT UP. WHAT'S CLEARLY EXPRESSED IS THAT THEY DON'T LIKE THE SUPREME COURT UPHOLDING ROE V. WADE OR SUPPORTING GAY MARRIAGE, ALTHOUGH I THOUGHT THE LATTER WAS ON A STATE BY STATE BASIS. SORRY FOR THE CAPS, KEYBOARD STUCK. I DON'T SEE HATRED BUT JUST THEIR OWN OPINIONS BASED ON THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEF AND FREEDOM OF RELIGION IS PROTECTED. NOW I FOR ONE DO CONSIDER RAPE AND VIOLENCE CONTRIBUTING FACTORS TO A DISINTEGRATING SOCIETY BUT THIS ARTICLE DIDN'T ADDRESS THAT PORTION NOR DID THE MAYOR. SO ONE CAN INFER THAT IF THE CHURCH DIDN'T SAY HOMOSEXUAL EXPLOSION ( WUTEVA THAT MEANS) THEN THE MAYOR WOULD HAVE SHOWN UP TO SPEAK. NOW THAT IS MORE TELLING THAN SHEILA PERFORMING. IF I WERE THE MAYOR I WOULD HAVE APPEARED AND LET ALL ATTENDEES KNOW WHAT I STOULD FOR AND CALLED THE CHURCH ON ANYTHING I DISAGREED WITH. "Homsesexual explosion" is deliberately incendiary language. It's very clear that this one group is being pinned as a cause of society's downfall by this so-called church group just by nature of their existing. This is not a matter of "religious beliefs". Religious people are, unfortunately, free to think fags are dirtevilnasty all they want, in spite of how wrong that is. But the wording of their message is clear, and amounts to hate speech. How can you not think what they've said is hateful? How can you defend this? What is wrong with you, that you think this is somehow okay? "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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meow85 said: DesireeNevermind said: P.S.
This is a snippet from the article where Mayor Coss declines to speak at this Church event: ...on the site, included the removal of God from society; "so-called social problems" like violence, rape and abortion; disintegration of the traditional family; a spirit of selfishness; Supreme Court decisions on abortion and separation of church and state; and the "homosexual explosion." "Enough is enough," it says. "The comparisons of Sodom and Gomorrah to the United States are, unfortunately, accurate. We must stop affirming the homosexual lifestyle as an accepted behavior within society." Martin said Monday that he respects Coss' decision and is sorry for including the line about a "homosexual explosion" when "sexual immorality" would have been more accurate. He said he does not advocate a "hate message," but "will not compromise the word of God" that says "marriage is between a man and a woman." IN THAT ARTICLE, I DIDN'T SEE ANY HATEFUL QUOTE FROM SHEILA E AND I REALLY DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING HATEFUL FROM THE CHURCH. IGNORANT? SURE, BUT HATEFUL NO. MAYBE THERE IS MORE OUT THERE ON WHAT THEY HAVE PREACHED BUT SOMEONE ELSE CAN GO LOOK IT UP. WHAT'S CLEARLY EXPRESSED IS THAT THEY DON'T LIKE THE SUPREME COURT UPHOLDING ROE V. WADE OR SUPPORTING GAY MARRIAGE, ALTHOUGH I THOUGHT THE LATTER WAS ON A STATE BY STATE BASIS. SORRY FOR THE CAPS, KEYBOARD STUCK. I DON'T SEE HATRED BUT JUST THEIR OWN OPINIONS BASED ON THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEF AND FREEDOM OF RELIGION IS PROTECTED. NOW I FOR ONE DO CONSIDER RAPE AND VIOLENCE CONTRIBUTING FACTORS TO A DISINTEGRATING SOCIETY BUT THIS ARTICLE DIDN'T ADDRESS THAT PORTION NOR DID THE MAYOR. SO ONE CAN INFER THAT IF THE CHURCH DIDN'T SAY HOMOSEXUAL EXPLOSION ( WUTEVA THAT MEANS) THEN THE MAYOR WOULD HAVE SHOWN UP TO SPEAK. NOW THAT IS MORE TELLING THAN SHEILA PERFORMING. IF I WERE THE MAYOR I WOULD HAVE APPEARED AND LET ALL ATTENDEES KNOW WHAT I STOULD FOR AND CALLED THE CHURCH ON ANYTHING I DISAGREED WITH. "Homsesexual explosion" is deliberately incendiary language. It's very clear that this one group is being pinned as a cause of society's downfall by this so-called church group just by nature of their existing. This is not a matter of "religious beliefs". Religious people are, unfortunately, free to think fags are dirtevilnasty all they want, in spite of how wrong that is. But the wording of their message is clear, and amounts to hate speech. How can you not think what they've said is hateful? How can you defend this? What is wrong with you, that you think this is somehow okay? Read the whole thing again and carefully please! They are attributing society's downfall to a bunch of people not just gays. If you support abortion rights, divorce, gay marriage and probably the democratic nominee...in their minds you are contributing to society's downfall. In this, they are ignorant and that's where I think Sheila can do some actual good. There is a big difference between hateful language which conotates physical and mental abuse and obliteration of a group and language that basically says I don't like you. If you disagree with this Church as you clearly do and you call them names, how is that not also hateful. Political incorrectness goes both ways and soon we will live in a society where no one can say anything about anybody or group. Speaking of which, why the hell would you use the word fag? Thats is more incendiary than homosexual explosion. SHAME ON YOU!!! | |
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GaryMF said: DesireeNevermind said: Not only are you getting way too heated but you're not even paying close attention to what's been posted. I will clarify for you what I can and then I gotta shut it down cuz this has strayed far off the whole Sheila topic. Okay, this post at least on my end is not about who suffers more. But since you are bringing it up. We all don't suffer the same - PERIOD! I as an american woman do not suffer the same as a woman from IRAQ or the Congo. Does that mean I ignore their suffering? Of course not! But I'm not about to compare my struggle with theirs or vice versa! Now please, don't be so petty as to call me prejudice just because I don't agree with you. By doing that you put yourself in the same category as that Church which you dislike so much. Plus my jewish and gay relatives wouldn't appreciate it. So you think the comparison between blacks and gays is logical and sensible because blacks are the LARGEST discriminated group? You just affirmed my earlier point about why gays chose the black plight to begin with. You go with what everyone else takes seriously. Blacks are the most visible minority and have endured the harshest long standing institutionalized discrimination in this country and in spite of that, much progress and success especially on the political front has been made. This isn't about logical/sensible but calculating/political. I will say it again, gays could have chosen any number of minority groups to compare their plight to but they chose the one that has the biggest bite and has garnered the most attention here and abroad! You mention the civil rights movement of the 60s being compared to the plight of the israelites. Another calculating/political choice but not necessarily logical and sensible IMO. Now while I don't agree with the comparison I understand why it was used - you have religious leaders heading up this movement and borrowing non-violent approaches from Ghandi - their best way to get thru to whites at that time was to use religion and the bible. Clarification needed - your last comment about Blacks feeiling insulted by a comparison between them and gays did not originate with me, i merely responded to it by saying its probably true and I base that on not only hearing others comment on the comparison thru various media outlets but also on Blacks being so heavily involved in religion and the church. And aren't we dealing with a Church here and Sheila's performance at it? Now getting back to Sheila.. For all those so ready and willing to condemn her for her performance, I say reserve judgement until you hear her say in no uncertain terms why she did it. Obviously there is something about this Church that draws her. Maybe she is planning on enlightening them, maybe they paid her a huge wad of cash or maybe their other deeds outshine their views on homosexuality. I don't no and at this point don't care cuz I have luv for the Chica and she's an awesome musician; the Church is damn lucky to have her. I'm sure she will provide some clarity later on and until then let's not hate on her. ~peace, deuces I'm sorry if I attributed the comment about Blacks being insulted by being compared to gays to you. Nevertheless, your post contains many contracitoins in itself (not about who suffers more, than saying who did suffer more etc.), and you have no idea what I think of the Church so you're jumping to lots of conclusions, such as the "political/calculated" assumnptions. It's not a huge leap that if we're taling about discrimination in the US, that people would thnk of discrimination aainst blacks. To assume it's calculated is just that. your assumption. you and i are probably on the same page on some of this (I hope)..... like everyone suffers differently but all suffering is wrong. i also am not hating on Sheila. Rather than this particular group that is espousing hate. I was the one who posted Sheila's response from her website to try and defend her. Just as you say you did not attribute the whole black/gay comparison to me, I did not attribute political/calculation comment to you. I am making an assessment on past civil rights and socioeconomic movements which is my right to do and also responsiblity. I don't think I've contradicted myself at all. I maintain that I do not think the black/gay comparison is an accurate or adequate one, I do not think that Sheila E is a hate monger and I am not so sure this Church espouses hate either. I also maintain the right to reserve judgement on either until more info comes in. Maybe its because of the whole 9/11 disaster and Bush bullshit, but I just don't feel the need or have the desire to jump to conclusions about anything anymore. And on issues as serious as what we're discussin here I just need more info before I go accusing somebody of being hatefilled cuz that is strong terminology that should not be used lightly. If it is that easy to accuse Sheila or this Church of preaching hate then how easy will it be to accuse you or I? And once the accusation is made, what next? What do you guys want to do? You want to boycot, take out a full page add, stalk Sheila and call her names? I mean before this thread I'm sure alot of people on here adored her and now you say she preaches hate. The way people will turn on one another so quickly never ceases to amaze me. This thread IMO is getting to be a bit of a Mob mentality. Lets hate they Church cuz they say there is moral decay and they threw gays in the mix and let's hate Sheila E cuz she's performed at one of this Church's events. Guilt by association and we don't even have all the facts on the association in place. Kind of like Obama and Ayers. Ayers did sometihng stupid and dangerous decades ago and has an unfavorable opinion on the USA and Obama gets blamed for it just cuz they worked on some totally unrelated effort decades later! You guys will have to start the SHEILA IS A HOMOPHOBE thread without me cuz I'm not buying it. | |
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DesireeNevermind said: Just as you say you did not attribute the whole black/gay comparison to me, I did not attribute political/calculation comment to you. I am making an assessment on past civil rights and socioeconomic movements which is my right to do and also responsiblity. I don't think I've contradicted myself at all. I maintain that I do not think the black/gay comparison is an accurate or adequate one, I do not think that Sheila E is a hate monger and I am not so sure this Church espouses hate either. I also maintain the right to reserve judgement on either until more info comes in. Maybe its because of the whole 9/11 disaster and Bush bullshit, but I just don't feel the need or have the desire to jump to conclusions about anything anymore. And on issues as serious as what we're discussin here I just need more info before I go accusing somebody of being hatefilled cuz that is strong terminology that should not be used lightly. If it is that easy to accuse Sheila or this Church of preaching hate then how easy will it be to accuse you or I? And once the accusation is made, what next? What do you guys want to do? You want to boycot, take out a full page add, stalk Sheila and call her names? I mean before this thread I'm sure alot of people on here adored her and now you say she preaches hate. The way people will turn on one another so quickly never ceases to amaze me. This thread IMO is getting to be a bit of a Mob mentality. Lets hate they Church cuz they say there is moral decay and they threw gays in the mix and let's hate Sheila E cuz she's performed at one of this Church's events. Guilt by association and we don't even have all the facts on the association in place. Kind of like Obama and Ayers. Ayers did sometihng stupid and dangerous decades ago and has an unfavorable opinion on the USA and Obama gets blamed for it just cuz they worked on some totally unrelated effort decades later! You guys will have to start the SHEILA IS A HOMOPHOBE thread without me cuz I'm not buying it. Where are you getting all of this? This thread is very reserved and respectful, imo. People are criticizing the church--I still don't see why that's unfair--and criticizing Sheila for participating, but I haven't seen "boycott" thrown around. Or people saying Sheila preaches hate. I think you're exaggerating the response, and it's unfair, because it's elevating it to a level that the opposing side has not gone to. People saying they're disappointed in Sheila are not exactly going over the top in their responses. As for awaiting more information on this from Sheila and the church and reserving any judgment until then, my guess is this is all we're gonna get. Sheila posted a brief message on her website, the event has come and gone and she played it, and the only remaining thing about it is this here thread. | |
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Efan said: DesireeNevermind said: Just as you say you did not attribute the whole black/gay comparison to me, I did not attribute political/calculation comment to you. I am making an assessment on past civil rights and socioeconomic movements which is my right to do and also responsiblity. I don't think I've contradicted myself at all. I maintain that I do not think the black/gay comparison is an accurate or adequate one, I do not think that Sheila E is a hate monger and I am not so sure this Church espouses hate either. I also maintain the right to reserve judgement on either until more info comes in. Maybe its because of the whole 9/11 disaster and Bush bullshit, but I just don't feel the need or have the desire to jump to conclusions about anything anymore. And on issues as serious as what we're discussin here I just need more info before I go accusing somebody of being hatefilled cuz that is strong terminology that should not be used lightly. If it is that easy to accuse Sheila or this Church of preaching hate then how easy will it be to accuse you or I? And once the accusation is made, what next? What do you guys want to do? You want to boycot, take out a full page add, stalk Sheila and call her names? I mean before this thread I'm sure alot of people on here adored her and now you say she preaches hate. The way people will turn on one another so quickly never ceases to amaze me. This thread IMO is getting to be a bit of a Mob mentality. Lets hate they Church cuz they say there is moral decay and they threw gays in the mix and let's hate Sheila E cuz she's performed at one of this Church's events. Guilt by association and we don't even have all the facts on the association in place. Kind of like Obama and Ayers. Ayers did sometihng stupid and dangerous decades ago and has an unfavorable opinion on the USA and Obama gets blamed for it just cuz they worked on some totally unrelated effort decades later! You guys will have to start the SHEILA IS A HOMOPHOBE thread without me cuz I'm not buying it. Where are you getting all of this? This thread is very reserved and respectful, imo. People are criticizing the church--I still don't see why that's unfair--and criticizing Sheila for participating, but I haven't seen "boycott" thrown around. Or people saying Sheila preaches hate. I think you're exaggerating the response, and it's unfair, because it's elevating it to a level that the opposing side has not gone to. People saying they're disappointed in Sheila are not exactly going over the top in their responses. As for awaiting more information on this from Sheila and the church and reserving any judgment until then, my guess is this is all we're gonna get. Sheila posted a brief message on her website, the event has come and gone and she played it, and the only remaining thing about it is this here thread. But people are not just saying they're dissappointed and they sure aren't being reserved. Several posts have insinuated if not outright said that Sheila is associating with and thereby promoting a group that espouses hate. Calling her a homophobe (and the word has already been used) is just around the corner unless we shut it down now. I just take exception with tossing the word hate, a very serisous word with very serious connotations, around because it is unproven with Sheila and this particular Church and I've taken exception with other comparisons but hey, water under the bridge cuz nobody is about to change their mind and that's okay with me. I have to say though, if that mayor hadn't declined - we wouldn't even have this thread. Nobody would know NOTHIN'! And whose to say that Sheila won't have further comment? Depends on if the reaction is bigger than what's been expressed here. The whole title of the thread is misleading cuz Sheila's not praying on anything, she's just doing what she's always done - perform! Like I said, they're lucky to have her. | |
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DesireeNevermind said: But people are not just saying they're dissappointed and they sure aren't being reserved. Several posts have insinuated if not outright said that Sheila is associating with and thereby promoting a group that espouses hate. Calling her a homophobe (and the word has already been used) is just around the corner unless we shut it down now. I just take exception with tossing the word hate, a very serisous word with very serious connotations, around because it is unproven with Sheila and this particular Church and I've taken exception with other comparisons but hey, water under the bridge cuz nobody is about to change their mind and that's okay with me. I have to say though, if that mayor hadn't declined - we wouldn't even have this thread. Nobody would know NOTHIN'! And whose to say that Sheila won't have further comment? Depends on if the reaction is bigger than what's been expressed here. The whole title of the thread is misleading cuz Sheila's not praying on anything, she's just doing what she's always done - perform! Like I said, they're lucky to have her. Well, if she's not a homophobe, she needs to drop out of this thing now. It's weird that you are trying to "shut down" the observation that someone might call her a homophobe before anyone actually does. Homophobia is what this entire topic is about. And thank God for the mayor having more balls than Shelia and actually standing up against hate and bigotry. During the AIDS crisis in the early 80s and 90s they used to have a salient saying: SILENCE=DEATH. It's still relevant in situations like these. | |
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JudasLChrist said: DesireeNevermind said: But people are not just saying they're dissappointed and they sure aren't being reserved. Several posts have insinuated if not outright said that Sheila is associating with and thereby promoting a group that espouses hate. Calling her a homophobe (and the word has already been used) is just around the corner unless we shut it down now. I just take exception with tossing the word hate, a very serisous word with very serious connotations, around because it is unproven with Sheila and this particular Church and I've taken exception with other comparisons but hey, water under the bridge cuz nobody is about to change their mind and that's okay with me. I have to say though, if that mayor hadn't declined - we wouldn't even have this thread. Nobody would know NOTHIN'! And whose to say that Sheila won't have further comment? Depends on if the reaction is bigger than what's been expressed here. The whole title of the thread is misleading cuz Sheila's not praying on anything, she's just doing what she's always done - perform! Like I said, they're lucky to have her. Well, if she's not a homophobe, she needs to drop out of this thing now. It's weird that you are trying to "shut down" the observation that someone might call her a homophobe before anyone actually does. Homophobia is what this entire topic is about. And thank God for the mayor having more balls than Shelia and actually standing up against hate and bigotry. During the AIDS crisis in the early 80s and 90s they used to have a salient saying: SILENCE=DEATH. It's still relevant in situations like these. Actually silence = death, originated as a phrase to address the holocaust and our (USA) lack of involvement in initially fighting that travesty; but hey it works for many situations and events in american history. I found/find it quite useful in addressing the Catholic Church's handling of the widespread molestation cases. This entire topic should not be about homophobia and Sheila should not be accused of homophobia b/c its unwarranted, unproven and unfair. Why should it not be about homophobia? B/c it dismisses the core of what this Church may or may not be about and it dismisses whatever awareness Sheila might be trying to raise either for them or to educate them. Has everyone forgotten the work she does with childrens charities and that she is a survivor of child rape? Or is that all nill cuz she performed at a Church that favors hetero relations? Is it okay that this Church allegedly wants to overturn roe v. wade. Is it okay that they allegedly supported the illegal war on Iraq? Is it irrelevant that they allegedly fight for tougher laws against child molesters? I brink these up to emphasize how little we care about anything else going on with this Church or with Sheila's involvement cuz all we heard/read was homosexual explosion/oppostion to gay marriage then BAM - ooh they're a hate group and oooh Sheila must hate too and she's so wrong for performing. That's just BullShit /Pendejadas (excuse my spanish). Everything else the Church allegedly stands for is overlooked and overshadowed the moment you interject gay. Sheila gets all this backlash because she performed there one time for a charitable event. The Church could still be bigots or ignorant but that's okay as long as its not about gay. For all we know, they may do a lot of charitable work for gay organizations Who Knows! I care about the whole picture, I want to know the whole story not just bits or pieces. And I won't accuse Shiela or anyone of preaching HATE unless I got some damn good evidence other than a one liner to back it up. Ive been a fan of hers too long and know people that have met and talked to her to think she's all of sudden stupid or a hate mongerer. Sheila is 50 years old and I would think at this point in her life with all she's seen and experienced - the choices she makes professional and personal are well thought out, planned, and not designed or intended to offend or hurt anyone or jeopardize her career. The thread is titled Sheila E to pray away the gay question mark not homophobia exclamation point. JUST BECAUSE WE DISAGREE, SHOULD NOT MAKE US ENEMIES.   | |
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meow85 said: jodi081630 said: How can she or anyone talk about acceptance and love for everyone, and involve themselves in a group like this.
They can't if they have even an ounce of honesty in them. Regardless of what you may believe, churches do a lot of good - both in communities and on a larger front. They are for the most part, some of the most charitable organizations on the planet. Whereas I can understand the disagreement with a lot of their doctrines, It is a vast overstatement to diminish the relevance of these organizations or try to imply that they do more harm than good. I think you guys need to gain more knowledge with regards to churches and what they do. Its not as simple as good/evil. People are far more complex than that, so the organizations they form are also going to be far more complex than that. Not all churches are the same. It seems to me like you are trying to wage a war on religion. If you think religion is going to go away, you are sadly mistaken and are fighting a losing battle. Religion has existed as long as man has. Its highly unlikely that its going to go away just because a small percentage of the population disapproves of it. Personally, I could work with right-winged, "evangelical" Christians to help the homeless or help significant causes even though I know that the primary structure of those churches are whites and they probably don't have a favorable opinion of "blaques" in general. Sometimes, the greater good outweighs the fine details. It doesn't mean I believe as they do or share their doctrine of faith. I think its unfair to hint that Sheila is being insincere by working with a Christian organization. Just because you value your own sexual identity over any faith doesn't mean that everyone else does. If you can't understand that, then perhaps you're not as open-minded as you profess to be. In my opinion, personal accomplishments outweigh personal attributes. | |
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DesireeNevermind said: This entire topic should not be about homophobia and Sheila should not be accused of homophobia b/c its unwarranted, unproven and unfair.
It's also UNSAID. No matter how many times you bring it up, it won't change the fact that YOU are the only one saying it. | |
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meow85 said: DesireeNevermind said: We will have to agree to disagree then. I don't think its a natural comparison at all and there are plenty of other groups that could have been chosen as a comparison but I think its like someone said earlier, the gays like other groups choose the black struggle/plight to bring seriousness to their own movement. Gays weren't forcibly removed from another continet and robbed of their language, name, culture, religion, laws, and freedom nor have they had their families split and sold off in bondage and forced to be subservient to a group who were already in the habit of discriminating against others (native americans). They never had separate drinking fountains, public lynchings, separate schools and medical facilities that were designed to be mediocre at best. Never been denied the right to vote, I mean jeez I could go on. I think when gays as a minority group try and say, "we've had it as hard as you" to black people how could they be taken seriously? You're trying to compare a holocaust that lasted hundreds of years to just discrimination which in and of itself has been experienced by almost everyone. Every minority group has experienced hate crime, been denied housing and employment and yes its flat out wrong but you argue. As for the whole marriage thing, well at the end of the day its just a civil union/contract and I think the religoius groups have deemed marriage this holy sacrament so that's why they fight so hard for it in some states. With the divorce rate being what it is and the whole underground polygamy...its a wonder why anybody wants marriage period! I suggest you pickup a goddamned book and educate yourself on the subject before you start rattling off about how gay people haven't faced anything near as bad as black people, or any other group. Fact: In 2008 in North America, queer people are routinely denied adequate medical care. It is perfectly legal in several states to fire or refuse to hire a person based on their sexual orientation. Fact: Until 2003 sodomy was a punishable offense in the state of Texas, and yes, it was enforced with large fines and even jailtime. Fact: Until the early-to-mid 1970's bars, clubs, and other establishments catering to a gay clientele faced systematic harassment from police and other authorities. Fact: It was only in 1973 -35 years ago! -that the APA declassified homosexuality as mental illness. Before that decision, queer people were often forcibly admitted into asylums and given schock treatments and lobotomies in attempts to "cure" them. Fact: At the end of the 2nd World War, when the Allied forces stormed the remaining prison camps and freed prisoners, those marked by the Nazis as gay with a pink triangle were left by the Allies to finish out their total sentences. Fact: The suicide rate in gay youth is almost double what it is in the non-gay population, as a direct result from the discrimination and harassment they face for who they are. Fact: People who identify themselves as gay -and even many who are not but are wrongly identified as such by others -face daily the threat of harassment and violence. Even so-called gay neighbourhoods in bigger cities are not a safe haven. Every queer person knows one of their own personally, either themself or someone they are close to, that has been the victim of anti-gay violence. The perpetrators' crimes are rarely taken seriously by authorities, even when the crime results in the death of the victim. Fact: Organizations calling themselves churches like Westboro Baptist, who protest at funerals of fallen soldiers and AIDS patients, are rarely if ever reprimanded by or interfered with by the authorities. They have the right to spew their hate message of "God Hates Fags" as a religious freedom, and use the Bible (specifically, Leviticus and Paul's letters) to justify themselves. Fact: During the height of the AIDS explosion in the 80's, anti-gay discrimination and scapegoating reached ludicrous heights. Even Ryan White, a kid who'd contracted the virus through donated blood, and his family faced death threats, harassment and violence for being a "dirty fag". Fact: In many parts of the world today, homosexuality is an offense punishable by death. The execution is often carried out in the most brutal way possible. This goes a hell of a lot deeper than you seem to think it does. What I gave heere are only the examples I could think of off the top of my head. Tell me again how comparing the experience of gay people to other minorities isn't comparable. I'd be thrilled to hear how you think this is any different. WTF? 2008? I do believe that most state Constitutions, particularly my fav - California make it illegal to discriminate against someone based on their sexual orientation - GO LOOK IT UP. 2003 texas/ that law was not enforced for many decades and you know that! They even forgot it was on the books. don't play dumb, you also know that it was illegal for both straight and gay couples. your fact #3 - where and what bars/clubs? that's too damn vague to post your fact #4 - i believe it was more than 35 years ago that the APA classified it as mental illness - but in any case, what evidence to you have to support this widespread shock treatment and lobotomy? you can't randomly force that on someone -never could unless they're own health and safety were at risk. BTW they did that to mentally handicapped and ppl professing psychic powers so this wasn't a target of homosexuality. fact #5 - true and yes, I even brought up the Nazi doctrine against homosexuals and consider it a more valid argument against gay discrmination. your fact #6 -suicide rate has gone down considerably across the board and there is even question about the real reason for suicides among todays youth e.g. predisposition to depression and side effects of medication. suicide is often a very complicated issue with varying causes. your fact #7 - Westboror Baptist - everyone knows they are off the Grid and they have even lost tax benefits because of their antics. they even protest at the funerals of dead soldiers in protest of the war. They pretty much don't like anybody and I don't think anybody likes them. Hope your're not comparing all churches with that one. fact #8 - horrible time in history and people were freaking out over a disease that killed rapidly and was debilitating with no apparent root cause. wasn't just the gays, but immigrants like hatians were catching hell too. your fact #9 - these parts of the world that carry out executions of gays are moreso your muslim and third world nations who in fact will execute not only if you're gay, but if you have a learning disabilty, do not marry who you are sworn too, do not practice the accepted and dominant faith, if you are a woman, if you have sex outside of marriage or associate with someone of another ethnic group or class. Iran, India, Congo, Rwanda to name a few. I ONLY ADDRESS AND IN SOME CASES CHALLENGE YOUR LIST OF FACTS TO LET YOU KNOW THAT I'M AWARE OF IT ALL ALREADY AND TO POINT OUT THAT THESE SOCIAL ISSUES IMPACTED OTHER GROUPS NOT JUST GAYS. BUT WHEN BLACKS WERE TARGETED IN THIS COUNTRY- BELIEVE ME IT WAS JUST ABOUT THEM. LOOK INTO THE MANIFEST DESTINY DOCTRINE. | |
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this is soooo much a general discussion thread not really fitting for a prince related topic but hey i tried to keep it about Sheila and i actually enjoyed the debate a little bit LOL
 
We all just need to be good people in our own right. Everyone's entitled to their own views and interpretations but at the end of the day none of this affects our economy or the future of our planet. Shot out to Miss E. | |
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DesireeNevermind said: meow85 said: I suggest you pickup a goddamned book and educate yourself on the subject before you start rattling off about how gay people haven't faced anything near as bad as black people, or any other group. Fact: In 2008 in North America, queer people are routinely denied adequate medical care. It is perfectly legal in several states to fire or refuse to hire a person based on their sexual orientation. Fact: Until 2003 sodomy was a punishable offense in the state of Texas, and yes, it was enforced with large fines and even jailtime. Fact: Until the early-to-mid 1970's bars, clubs, and other establishments catering to a gay clientele faced systematic harassment from police and other authorities. Fact: It was only in 1973 -35 years ago! -that the APA declassified homosexuality as mental illness. Before that decision, queer people were often forcibly admitted into asylums and given schock treatments and lobotomies in attempts to "cure" them. Fact: At the end of the 2nd World War, when the Allied forces stormed the remaining prison camps and freed prisoners, those marked by the Nazis as gay with a pink triangle were left by the Allies to finish out their total sentences. Fact: The suicide rate in gay youth is almost double what it is in the non-gay population, as a direct result from the discrimination and harassment they face for who they are. Fact: People who identify themselves as gay -and even many who are not but are wrongly identified as such by others -face daily the threat of harassment and violence. Even so-called gay neighbourhoods in bigger cities are not a safe haven. Every queer person knows one of their own personally, either themself or someone they are close to, that has been the victim of anti-gay violence. The perpetrators' crimes are rarely taken seriously by authorities, even when the crime results in the death of the victim. Fact: Organizations calling themselves churches like Westboro Baptist, who protest at funerals of fallen soldiers and AIDS patients, are rarely if ever reprimanded by or interfered with by the authorities. They have the right to spew their hate message of "God Hates Fags" as a religious freedom, and use the Bible (specifically, Leviticus and Paul's letters) to justify themselves. Fact: During the height of the AIDS explosion in the 80's, anti-gay discrimination and scapegoating reached ludicrous heights. Even Ryan White, a kid who'd contracted the virus through donated blood, and his family faced death threats, harassment and violence for being a "dirty fag". Fact: In many parts of the world today, homosexuality is an offense punishable by death. The execution is often carried out in the most brutal way possible. This goes a hell of a lot deeper than you seem to think it does. What I gave heere are only the examples I could think of off the top of my head. Tell me again how comparing the experience of gay people to other minorities isn't comparable. I'd be thrilled to hear how you think this is any different. WTF? 2008? I do believe that most state Constitutions, particularly my fav - California make it illegal to discriminate against someone based on their sexual orientation - GO LOOK IT UP. 2003 texas/ that law was not enforced for many decades and you know that! They even forgot it was on the books. don't play dumb, you also know that it was illegal for both straight and gay couples. your fact #3 - where and what bars/clubs? that's too damn vague to post your fact #4 - i believe it was more than 35 years ago that the APA classified it as mental illness - but in any case, what evidence to you have to support this widespread shock treatment and lobotomy? you can't randomly force that on someone -never could unless they're own health and safety were at risk. BTW they did that to mentally handicapped and ppl professing psychic powers so this wasn't a target of homosexuality. fact #5 - true and yes, I even brought up the Nazi doctrine against homosexuals and consider it a more valid argument against gay discrmination. your fact #6 -suicide rate has gone down considerably across the board and there is even question about the real reason for suicides among todays youth e.g. predisposition to depression and side effects of medication. suicide is often a very complicated issue with varying causes. your fact #7 - Westboror Baptist - everyone knows they are off the Grid and they have even lost tax benefits because of their antics. they even protest at the funerals of dead soldiers in protest of the war. They pretty much don't like anybody and I don't think anybody likes them. Hope your're not comparing all churches with that one. fact #8 - horrible time in history and people were freaking out over a disease that killed rapidly and was debilitating with no apparent root cause. wasn't just the gays, but immigrants like hatians were catching hell too. your fact #9 - these parts of the world that carry out executions of gays are moreso your muslim and third world nations who in fact will execute not only if you're gay, but if you have a learning disabilty, do not marry who you are sworn too, do not practice the accepted and dominant faith, if you are a woman, if you have sex outside of marriage or associate with someone of another ethnic group or class. Iran, India, Congo, Rwanda to name a few. I ONLY ADDRESS AND IN SOME CASES CHALLENGE YOUR LIST OF FACTS TO LET YOU KNOW THAT I'M AWARE OF IT ALL ALREADY AND TO POINT OUT THAT THESE SOCIAL ISSUES IMPACTED OTHER GROUPS NOT JUST GAYS. BUT WHEN BLACKS WERE TARGETED IN THIS COUNTRY- BELIEVE ME IT WAS JUST ABOUT THEM. LOOK INTO THE MANIFEST DESTINY DOCTRINE. Your entire statement here is pure ignorance. One wonders what your agenda is to deny the social realities and mistreatment of gay people. Not only am I against Homophobia, I'm against stupidity. | |
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BlaqueKnight said: meow85 said: They can't if they have even an ounce of honesty in them. Regardless of what you may believe, churches do a lot of good - both in communities and on a larger front. They are for the most part, some of the most charitable organizations on the planet. Whereas I can understand the disagreement with a lot of their doctrines, It is a vast overstatement to diminish the relevance of these organizations or try to imply that they do more harm than good. I think you guys need to gain more knowledge with regards to churches and what they do. Its not as simple as good/evil. People are far more complex than that, so the organizations they form are also going to be far more complex than that. Not all churches are the same. It seems to me like you are trying to wage a war on religion. If you think religion is going to go away, you are sadly mistaken and are fighting a losing battle. Religion has existed as long as man has. Its highly unlikely that its going to go away just because a small percentage of the population disapproves of it. Personally, I could work with right-winged, "evangelical" Christians to help the homeless or help significant causes even though I know that the primary structure of those churches are whites and they probably don't have a favorable opinion of "blaques" in general. Sometimes, the greater good outweighs the fine details. It doesn't mean I believe as they do or share their doctrine of faith. I think its unfair to hint that Sheila is being insincere by working with a Christian organization. Just because you value your own sexual identity over any faith doesn't mean that everyone else does. If you can't understand that, then perhaps you're not as open-minded as you profess to be. In my opinion, personal accomplishments outweigh personal attributes. Yes, Christians may do some good work and they should be commended for that. That doesn't mean we don't hold Christians and Christian churches accountable when they promote, uphold or participate in bigotry. | |
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DesireeNevermind said: meow85 said: "Homsesexual explosion" is deliberately incendiary language. It's very clear that this one group is being pinned as a cause of society's downfall by this so-called church group just by nature of their existing. This is not a matter of "religious beliefs". Religious people are, unfortunately, free to think fags are dirtevilnasty all they want, in spite of how wrong that is. But the wording of their message is clear, and amounts to hate speech. How can you not think what they've said is hateful? How can you defend this? What is wrong with you, that you think this is somehow okay? Read the whole thing again and carefully please! They are attributing society's downfall to a bunch of people not just gays. If you support abortion rights, divorce, gay marriage and probably the democratic nominee...in their minds you are contributing to society's downfall. In this, they are ignorant and that's where I think Sheila can do some actual good. There is a big difference between hateful language which conotates physical and mental abuse and obliteration of a group and language that basically says I don't like you. If you disagree with this Church as you clearly do and you call them names, how is that not also hateful. Political incorrectness goes both ways and soon we will live in a society where no one can say anything about anybody or group. Speaking of which, why the hell would you use the word fag? Thats is more incendiary than homosexual explosion. SHAME ON YOU!!! Mentioning abortion rights or divorce does nto single out any particular social group. Mentioning the "homosexual explosion" clearly does. THAT is the difference. My use of the word fag is allowed both in that I am a queer person myself, and that it was clearly meant as a criticism of the language used by anti-gay groups. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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BlaqueKnight said: meow85 said: They can't if they have even an ounce of honesty in them. Regardless of what you may believe, churches do a lot of good - both in communities and on a larger front. They are for the most part, some of the most charitable organizations on the planet. Whereas I can understand the disagreement with a lot of their doctrines, It is a vast overstatement to diminish the relevance of these organizations or try to imply that they do more harm than good. I think you guys need to gain more knowledge with regards to churches and what they do. Its not as simple as good/evil. People are far more complex than that, so the organizations they form are also going to be far more complex than that. Not all churches are the same. It seems to me like you are trying to wage a war on religion. If you think religion is going to go away, you are sadly mistaken and are fighting a losing battle. Religion has existed as long as man has. Its highly unlikely that its going to go away just because a small percentage of the population disapproves of it. Personally, I could work with right-winged, "evangelical" Christians to help the homeless or help significant causes even though I know that the primary structure of those churches are whites and they probably don't have a favorable opinion of "blaques" in general. Sometimes, the greater good outweighs the fine details. It doesn't mean I believe as they do or share their doctrine of faith. I think its unfair to hint that Sheila is being insincere by working with a Christian organization. Just because you value your own sexual identity over any faith doesn't mean that everyone else does. If you can't understand that, then perhaps you're not as open-minded as you profess to be. In my opinion, personal accomplishments outweigh personal attributes. You seem to have read a whole lot that's not there into mine and other's posts. I am not against organized religions or churches, nor am I trying to eradicate organized religion. And yes, I do understand that over the years religious organizations have often been the biggest movers and shakers in terms of social justice and charity. But I fail to see how certain good works are supposed to eclipse support for a doctrine that sees certain people as not only lesser than the rest of society, but as directly responsible for that society's ills. How is preaching that one group is inherently more at fault a "fine detail"? God isn't just looking at a person's actions, but what's in their heart as well. If what's in a person's heart is negativity towards an entire group of people, is God going to be saying, "Oh well, you fed a few homeless people once, so you're all good with Me." Let me use Prussian Blue as an example. If you're not familiar, they're a white supremist pop duo consisting of twin 14 year old sisters. They preach racial superiority in their music and dismiss the Holocaust as "exaggerated", though unlike certain so-called "white pride" musical acts they never preach violence towards people of colour. Then Hurricane Katrina struck. They raised money and supplies to be sent to survivors, on the condition that only white people were recipients. Surely they really did mean well for those they stipulated their donations go to. If their actions speak louder than what's in their hearts, then using the same logic you and Desiree are using, their good deed of making donations to Hurricane survivors ought to be a-okay in the Lord's eyes. I find that very hard to believe. In my eyes, this is a very similar situation playing out -yet who but other racists would support Prussian Blue's "opinion"? And no, I don't understand why a person would choose their religion over their being. If this were a question of spirituality or of a personal relationship to the Almighty versus sexuality, that would be different. But it's not. We're talking about religion. Religion and God are not necessary for one another to exist. Often, they're even mutually exclusive. Religion really is, in the end, just a club a person can choose to participate in or not. If someone believes their spiritual well-being hinges on their membership to a certain club, I'd suggest they've got some deep problems to work out. God can't possibly care what you do on Sunday or who's offering plate you're filling. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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meow85 said: You seem to have read a whole lot that's not there into mine and other's posts. I am not against organized religions or churches, nor am I trying to eradicate organized religion. And yes, I do understand that over the years religious organizations have often been the biggest movers and shakers in terms of social justice and charity. But I fail to see how certain good works are supposed to eclipse support for a doctrine that sees certain people as not only lesser than the rest of society, but as directly responsible for that society's ills. How is preaching that one group is inherently more at fault a "fine detail"? God isn't just looking at a person's actions, but what's in their heart as well. If what's in a person's heart is negativity towards an entire group of people, is God going to be saying, "Oh well, you fed a few homeless people once, so you're all good with Me." Let me use Prussian Blue as an example. If you're not familiar, they're a white supremist pop duo consisting of twin 14 year old sisters. They preach racial superiority in their music and dismiss the Holocaust as "exaggerated", though unlike certain so-called "white pride" musical acts they never preach violence towards people of colour. Then Hurricane Katrina struck. They raised money and supplies to be sent to survivors, on the condition that only white people were recipients. Surely they really did mean well for those they stipulated their donations go to. If their actions speak louder than what's in their hearts, then using the same logic you and Desiree are using, their good deed of making donations to Hurricane survivors ought to be a-okay in the Lord's eyes. I find that very hard to believe. In my eyes, this is a very similar situation playing out -yet who but other racists would support Prussian Blue's "opinion"? And no, I don't understand why a person would choose their religion over their being. If this were a question of spirituality or of a personal relationship to the Almighty versus sexuality, that would be different. But it's not. We're talking about religion. Religion and God are not necessary for one another to exist. Often, they're even mutually exclusive. Religion really is, in the end, just a club a person can choose to participate in or not. If someone believes their spiritual well-being hinges on their membership to a certain club, I'd suggest they've got some deep problems to work out. God can't possibly care what you do on Sunday or who's offering plate you're filling. I know who Prussian Blue is - those two little misguided children. I'm not justifying any wrongdoings, I'm simply saying that its not nearly as simple as you are trying to make it out to be. Since I'm not familiar with this specific church, I'm not about to condemn them. Blanket Statements like "They hate gays" or "they hate blacks" are not enough for me to assume that everyone in the church feels that way. As I said, people are far more complex than that and deserve closer examination. If you believe religion is "just a club" you have a vast lack of understanding of it. Religion has existed in some form or another since the dawn of man. Its far more than just a "club". That's a vastly erroneous statement. Not everyone believes that all homosexuals are born gay. There is no solid evidence that all are. We know its the case for most but there are exceptions. Since homosexuality can be both a born and learned behavior, there is still a grey area and it is that grey area that a lot of people mull over undecidedly. Regardless, when it comes down to it people make their own choices. That is something you have to learn to accept in life. There are 6.6 Billion people on the planet and not all of us are going to agree. Most people have an understanding of good and bad because all people are different combinations of the two. People pick and choose their battles. Sheila picked hers. No matter what is said, she chose to try to do what she perceives to be something good. There is no harm in that. For the record, I never try to guess what God wants or what's okay in God's book. I assume he could care less about my insignificant ass. He's got universes to deal with. | |
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