Honestly though, if I had to pick on single person who I believe was relied on, professionally and personally, it would be Sheila E.

Do you think it's because he's never relied on someone or other so much to help him write music?

P used to work with Lisa way before Wendy was ever in the picture. I think it was a mistake for P when Wendy joined. Lisa understood Prince, musically and as a person. Lisa really KNEW Prince, the man and before he was a "star". So the things P got from Lisa fit more with what P was already doing anyway. Plus I think she was more of a nuturing type spirit than Wendy was. Also, I think Lisa was content in being the keyboard player in P's band. Wendy seemed totally different. So by P relying on them more and more, largely because he was doing UTCM, writing and directing, plus being the star of the film. He would leave some things for Lisa and Wendy to finish. Wendy just seemed to be way more aggresive and more on the thing "Listen Lisa, we can use this as a stepping stone. So we need to be involved in as many songs, writing and producing, as we can for when we break free from this little runt." That's just how I always saw Wendy. I just see her always in Lisa's ear, tugging and pulling on Lisa's arm and shit. That's how I envisioned Wendy. You could tell Lisa and Prince were close. I just think the dynamic when Wendy joined changed. I never felt they had THAT big of an impact on P's music as the hype or legend suggests.

Se7en said:

Pur-lease. Sheila had virtually no input in Prince's music, hell, she didn't have much input in her own music while she was with him (and when she really went solo, it was blergh). Whereas W&L actually "fleshed out" Prince songs.

blackguitaristz said:

Wow. Just out of curiosity, is this just based on speculation or actual knowledge? Cuz it sounds a lot like the plot of Purple Rain .

I think from previous posts you know some of the guys from back then so just wondering if this was based on insider knowledge or just your gut feel.
[Edited 9/21/08 21:00pm]

GaryMF said:

A little bit of both actually. But mostly, my gut feel. Dig, I'm not trying to upset folks on here who are Wendy lovers cuz I know there are many. There isn't anybody on here who digs Lisa more than I do. Or dug her longer that I have. Most people on here talk of Lisa and Wendy like they were joined at the hip and shit. Like they were one entity. Many fail to realize that Lisa had her hand in P's thing long before anybody had even heard of Wendy. People are always saying how much better P's music got after Purple Rain. Me personally, I don't hear all of this. I can't stand the ATWIAD album as a whole. And all of that was Prince's doing. Those are Prince's songs. I know about the title track but that was it. Wendy didn't write Condition of the Heart or Paisley Park or Pop Life. That's just an example. She didn't have anything to do with She's Always In My Hair. Same with Parade. That's really the only album P let Lisa and Wendy do their thing. Mountains and Sometimes It Snows. Cool songs. Oh yeah, Chris Tracy's Parade. They were involved in Strange Relationship on Signs but still, it's a Prince song. As much as P is a control freak, he didn't all of a sudden wake up one morning and was like "Fuck it,...I'm going to let Wendy take over and put shit in my songs!". Like I stated earlier, P was very busy with UTCM and that's the most Lisa and Wendy together got to put their imput in Prince's thing the most. Most of the shit they cut where they had major input didn't even get released. If P was THAT on fire about that stuff, more than just one song would have ended up on Signs. It would have been on Lovesexy, etc. My point is, they weren't running shit like people give them credit for. P looked to them to help tidy up songs that P basically didn't want to be bothered with because he was off doing other shit.
[Edited 9/21/08 21:35pm]

blackguitaristz said:

I was just wondering what you were basing your comment on. I know about Lisa pre- PR etc.....

I am the RARE ORG member who actually takes a middle-ground on the W&L thing.

In other words I think the music the 3 of them did was great, but I also respect what they each did on their own as well. My favorite Prince music probably is from 1999-Parade though. so some is solo, some with W&L.

The crazies are the ones who are like: "Prince is nothing without W&L" just as much as the ones who are like "W&L are NOTHING! They had no input and their lack of hits post Revolution are proof!"

blackguitaristz said:

Wow. Just out of curiosity, is this just based on speculation or actual knowledge? Cuz it sounds a lot like the plot of Purple Rain .

BartVanHemelen said:

Whoaaa! Sheila may not have done a lot of writing for Prince's stuff....(though she did co-write most of Madhouse 16, plus we'll never really know how much she actually co-wrote on her 1st 2 albums but she did get actual credit at ASCAP so it wasn't like the credits for The Family album!)..... Still she had a HUGE influence on him in 2 ways:

1. Drums & Percussion.

First, can you even imagine what the Glamorous Life--song and album--would have been like without her percussion on it??? The song itself really gets going with all the intricate percussion and rhythmic stuff on the album version after the vocals drop out.

Second, it's been documented (see The Vault) that when Sheila started playing the drum kit more regularly (i.e. not just latin percussion), that got Prince very competitive and he wanted to start getting better on the skins (I think Tamborine might be a result of that)

2. Band Members

Many of Prince's best members actually came from Sheila's own band or were musicians she hooked him up with. This goes back to Miko, Bonnie, Levi and includes Rhonda, Kat Dyson and Renato too.

Moreover, Eric (my favorite band member) actually only came to P's attention because he auditioned for Sheila's PR Tour band but she had already hired Eddie. The rest, as they say, is history!
[Edited 9/21/08 21:09pm]

Again,..what I'm saying isn't at all about was P's music better before or after Lisa and Wendy. I can give a fuck about all of that. Where I was coming from is what I stated in my previous posts. Just my opinion. Many people didn't even like Prince UNTILL Wendy joined the band. And then it was Prince himself that promoted them as Lisa and Wendy. And that was only to capitalize on their characters in the film. Again, Lisa was already there. Had been there for 3 years. What, P didn't realize Lisa could write untill Wendy showed up?

Good call.
Does anyone REALLY think that Prince was nothing without W&L as some people suggest in this thread?? That keeps coming up. I happen to like a lot of the music that came out when Lisa ...and then Wendy and Lisa were involved with Prince. I happen to think it is because when you have some people that you trust with some actual artistry - and let then do their thing a bit, it helps what you are doing. That also doesn't mean i think they wrote it or had a direct involvement so much as artists can spur each other forward creatively if they really synch. Which these three- and Sheila too- did.Plus, as with most artists, it's easier to give direct critical feedback when they are still working to attain success rather than having already had it. Who is going to be straightforward with a guy who makes sure you are employed?

See that's where we differ. As a whole, I never liked ATWIAD or Parade. I liked a few songs on each album but that was it. So if anything, where Lisa and Wendy was suppossed to have been all up in P's music, I liked that era the least. My fave period of P's was from his second album up to Purple Rain. With 1999 being the best. So I'm a Rude Boy. And that's what Purple Rain represented; the last of that era from Prince. Purple Rain is basically the Glam version of Dirty Mind, Controversy and 1999 all rolled up into one. But THAT'S the Prince I always favored.

blackguitaristz said:

Actually, now that you mention it.... I don't really love ATWIAD or Parade as whole albums myself. I almost never put them on and listen to them. I like specific songs from each (More Parade ....i.e. Kiss, Mountains, Girls and Boys).

If I could only have one Prince album ever it would probably be 1999.

Gotta have the full version of DMSR!

Do you think it's because he's never relied on someone or other so much to help him write music?

BoySimon said:

We will never, ever know for sure who of Prince's associates had more or less influence on his sound at any given time because Prince ain't talking. By many accounts he has given credit where none was due and has also done the reverse.

You are making an assumption based mostly on heresay.

If I had to guess, (which is all you're doing) I could argue that Prince's musical relationship with Andre Cymone was every bit as significant if not moreseo than those two ladies. W&L devotees tend to forget that Prince was exposed to and experimenting with different directions in music long before they came along.

I also strongly disagree with the myth that his most creative period was the W&L era. While I don't discredit their many interesting contributions, Prince has exhibited some incredible creativity pre and post W&L, nostalgia nothwithstanding.

As musical collaborations go, one of the best Prince has had over the years has been with Claire Fisher, who almost no one ever mentions. He's added lots of interesting textures to Prince's music and he's never even met the guy...explain that?

BoySimon said:

We will never, ever know for sure who of Prince's associates had more or less influence on his sound at any given time because Prince ain't talking. By many accounts he has given credit where none was due and has also done the reverse.

You are making an assumption based mostly on heresay.

If I had to guess, (which is all you're doing) I could argue that Prince's musical relationship with Andre Cymone was every bit as significant if not moreseo than those two ladies. W&L devotees tend to forget that Prince was exposed to and experimenting with different directions in music long before they came along.

I also strongly disagree with the myth that his most creative period was the W&L era. While I don't discredit their many interesting contributions, Prince has exhibited some incredible creativity pre and post W&L, nostalgia nothwithstanding.

As musical collaborations go, one of the best Prince has had over the years has been with Claire Fisher, who almost no one ever mentions. He's added lots of interesting textures to Prince's music and he's never even met the guy...explain that?

I think Purple Rain would've been just about the same without Wendy. Without her though, I don't think ATWIAD or Parade would sound at all like what we know now. Based on his steady evolution over Controversy, 1999, and PR, I think his next album would've been more like Purple Rain II.

Se7en said:

Well, I think ATWIAD would have sounded the same without Wendy. Like I stated in an earlier post, damn near all of the songs were written by P alone. He credits America to the whole band but P wrote that guitar riff and there isn't much else to it. Fink MIGHT have came up with that keyboard melody and because they were jamming on it and P was in a giving mood, he just credited it to the whole band. And the title track probably would have happened because Lisa's brother came up with the music so P would have heard it and dug it anyway. The rest of the album is all Prince. I agree with u on Parade..to an extent. Also like I mentioned earlier, besides Chris Tracy Parade, Mountains and Snows In April, everything is P's. I think his follow up to PR wouldn't have been PR2 just like PR wasn't 1999 Pt2. I think P would have kept The Dance Electric for himself. That song to me is definately P's follow up to PR. I think that would have been the name of his album. She's Always In My Hair would have been on there as well. THAT'S the direction I think P would have went.

blackguitaristz said:

So true, I WISH he had done that... The Dance Electric would have been MASSIVE if Prince had done it....MASSIVE! (It's there in God vocal, it SHOULD have been Prince). Do you think he was really desperate to make amends or whatever with Andre, and that's why he gave him Dance Electric? Maybe he thought it was so good it would make Andre a really big star in his own right too? How successful WAS that for Andre, did it get in the charts and stuff? Or maybe, he just really did want to go in another direction completely....ah well!
[Edited 9/24/08 3:42am]