There seems to always be a lot of discussion about Wendy and Lisa's role in shaping Prince's music in the mid-'80s (and debate over whether that role is over- or understated). But there doesn't seem to be much discussion over Sheila's role in shaping his sound.

Obviously, Prince shaped Sheila's sound, creating the majority of the songs on her WB/Paisley Park albums. But her arrival to his camp on a full-time basis coincided with the change in his drum beats and programming and the presence of more horns, and her band members were often "borrowed" for Prince's band.

I love Wendy and Lisa and believe they contributed greatly to Prince's evolution as a musician during that time--but I'm thinking that Sheila had more influence, and did a lot more uncredited work.

Thoughts?

None of the above.

Graycap23 said:

Wendy and Lisa. IMO anyone who doesn't acknowledge it lives in a sonic bubble. Clearly , whether you like the albums or not, sounds on ATWIAD through some of Sign O' the Times have a very different feel from production, complexity and musical variety. W&L's solo projects also exhibit that feel and they grew it from there to the demanding career of producing, scoring films and tv they have today (plus their own work). Also Lisa worked on the Time records so there is influence there too. Andre Cymone had some influence as well as Levi Seacer, Jr. Listening to Andre's solo work my guess is he was def partly influential on Dirty Mind, and Levi helped shape the amazing sonics on Diamonds and Pearls. It is one of the better sounding cds imo - and I think he was turning the knobs back then. Heck Sonny and Mike B. pushed Princes rock side from the way they played. Say what you will, but every artist is influenced by those they surround themselves with. Unless they seal themselves off and believe their own hype - and then they get the kind of current output *someone* has had recently.
Just my opinion, but it's based on listening, not a blind devotion to having to believe Prince was never helped or influenced in his music.It doesn't diminish his work after all.
[Edited 1/9/08 15:02pm]

Thanks, Zannaloaf, that's a great response. I don't deny W&L's huge influence--and in fact I love the albums they're on--but I still think Sheila played a major role too. I've always imagined Prince's studio around that time to be like a musical commune, with ideas free-flowing back and forth and all the talent kind of gelling together. To my ear--and again, maybe this is just me--when Sheila laid down the beat for, say, "Sexual Suicide," which Prince then wrote a song around, she was leading him into a sound and a direction that permeated the proposed Crystal Ball project and the released SOTT. But that's not to diminish anything W&L did.

I agree with your point about "every artist is influenced by those they surround themselves with."

Graycap23 said:

Why not?

OBVIOUSLY-WENDY & LISA
SUBLIMINALLY-SHEILA E.

UNCREDITED-HELLA PEOPLE INCLUDING ANDRE CYMONE AT THE TOP OF THE LIST!!!!!

[Edited 1/10/08 6:32am]

woogiebear said:

Didn't prince say morris day influenced his drumming? Andre's style is all over the first few prince albums and his basslines are there too; i'm yours, uptown, why you wanna treat me so bad and feel for you are all based on andre's basslines.

W & L had more input than anyone prince has ever worked with; they co- produced some of parade and when they asked for credit and money for it; PRINCE FIRED THIER ASSES!

Wendy and Lisa- VERY influencial!

Sheila E- NONE she was Prince's so called "toy to mold" P WROTE the music that made her famous NOT Sheila!Sure she may of wrote a couple(maybe) if that. But other then that it was ALL PRINCE that made her music wise!

toots said:

So-called by whom?

I know Prince wrote most of the solo work she did back in the day (and said it in my initial post), but I'm talking about HIS work, not hers. It's not like Sheila was just called in to lay down vocals and then went home without any other involvement. She and Prince spent a lot of time together as collaborators.

Wendy and Lisa obviously influenced the songs they wrote or cowrote. That goes without saying. I'm talking about the longterm influence these three women exacted on Prince. And to me, it seems that Prince's style began changing significantly after Sheila joined his camp (both in horns and percussion, for example).

Not that I want to overstate Sheila's influence by any means. Believe me, I know what a genius Prince is in and of himself.

fcukthepolice said:

Agreed. I'm talking about the albums after PR, after Sheila was in the camp.



Agreed that their influence is all over Parade. But I'm not so sure that they had more influence than anyone Prince has ever worked with. Then again, that's hard to quantify.

fcukthepolice said:

YEAH.....PRINCE SAID MORRIS IS HIS FAVORITE DRUMMER. IT'S IN AN INTERVIEW IN MODERN DRUMMER A FEW YEARS BACK!!!!!

toots said:

I would hardly call sheila a toy.
She was and is very talented and was along for the ride. I would say she def brought a different vibe with her - even if live and not studio.
Plenty of respected singers never touch the writing or production- doesn't make them a toy. that's a pretty f*cked up thing to say about someone that busted her ass as hard a Sheila. How many prominent female percussionists you see before her?

Efan said:

It was my opinion so please get off my back.

In my opinion the most influential band members as far as challenging Prince as a songwriter, live performer and overall musician are Wendy and Lisa, Eric Leeds and Sheila E. Those 4 pushed Prince to grow musically and weren't afraid to tell him that something didn't sound right. You can't top Sheila E as a drummer/percussionist but as far as song writing, composing, or anything like that with Prince's sound she didn't have the same influence or share the same mind with Prince like Wendy and Lisa did. I honestly think that In This Bed I Scream pretty much answers your question.

That's not to take away from Dez, Andre, Rhonda or Fink or anyone. But I just feel that Prince respects the musicianship of Wendy, Lisa, Eric and Sheila the most. If he didn't he wouldn't have invited them all back through the years to play with him, it's pretty simple. As a musician I respect all the players he's had in the band, because I sure know that's a gig I would have given anything to have.

Zannaloaf said:

Um I was early teens...Yikes! so much for having a open opinion. Testy arent we? And so defensive about hardly knowing the lady yourself right?

She WAS his "toy" because HE WAS trying to mold her into his personal female persona of himself, think about it for just a second will you. Even I saw this back in the 80's(the same style of clothes, the hair, makeup) . Let alone any female he meets today, if THEY let him do it! WAKE UP!


For the record: I was in my early teens people. SO please your guilt trips arent getting to me.
[Edited 1/11/08 13:46pm]

toots said:

Uh...relax. Why are you so uptight?

I'm talking about Prince's music, but you keep bringing up Sheila's look and her albums. That's not the point.

And for the record, lots of us were in our early teens back then. No one's interested in taking you on a guilt trip.

EverlastingNow said:

This was a great post. Thanks for writing it.

Efan said:

That responce from you got me a bit uptight thanks. Secondly you WANTED peoples opinions when making the thread(read your first post on this) and then you get testy about it when they have a different opinion about it. I can see this when your posting especially the one above this one (they are agreeing with you).

Prince's music WAS relayed into Sheila's. He WAS trying to mold her into his "toy" and that IS my point which you are obviously missing.
[Edited 1/11/08 14:11pm]

blue22 said:

I know what you mean. The first time I heard "One Day [I'm Gonna Make You Mine]," I thought it sounded way too much like Vanity.



Very interesting points. Thanks.

toots said:

That wasn't my quote; that's someone else's. I do want people's opinions, and thank you for sharing them. But if I disagree with you, I'm not stifling debate; I'm just disagreeing with you.

blue22 said:

I dont think she was a bad person BEFORE Prince. I would of wanted to hear her songs before she met him. Nor did I ever say she was a bad person. I think Prince was trying to mold her into HIMSELF when she was with him musically. He wanted too much control and control over her music.

ok - apparently you mis-wrote what you meant to begin with. Calling someone or referring to them as a toy is disrespectful. Saying you feel someone is being molded into something is kinda different. Had you said that you would not have gotten my response.
And how do you know who I do and do not know?
[Edited 1/11/08 15:22pm]
[Edited 1/11/08 15:23pm]

Zannaloaf said:

WHY does it matter if you do know the person or not, its a board and everyone here is entitled to their opinion either good or bad. If you do say KNOW her like you say you do, you would already know she is prolly already used to the criticism rather good or bad right?

And if I or ANYONE for that matter called her a "toy" THAT would be my opinion or theirs if they so choose I AM entitled to my opinion. You cant tell me or anyone on here HOW or WHAT to think, YOU are not me or them. And you dont therefore pay my bills either.The "toy" reference is tame compared to what people in my town used to call her back in the 80's.

Toy can also be refered to someone trying to bend them to do what the other wants them too as well.

Rather disrepectful or not(being called a toy) she is in the entertainment business and prolly has heard worse then that.

So lay off me okay.
[Edited 1/12/08 6:54am]

toots said:

gotcha.
No standards apply to what you say because everyone else does it and she's used to it. Now I'm clear.
I also never said I know her or you can't have an opinion - or what to do. I called it disrespectful. That's hardly laying into you. Just my opinion, whch I'm also entitled to.

toots said:

By your definition, Sheila was no more a toy than Wendy and Lisa or any other associate, for that matter. The Time, The Family, Jill Jones, Vanity 6, Apollonia 6--they were all his "toys" if that's what you want to call them. Wendy and Lisa were his toys just as much, and for as many years, as Sheila--he orchestrated how W&L did their hair, dressed, everything--even the whole "Is the water warm enough?" part was controlled by him.

But what does that have to do with their abilities as musicians?

Efan said:

That I agree as well. Please bare with me on what Im trying to say here,and to answer your question:

The way I see it with the albums:

Wendy & Lisa: He(Prince) DIDNT help them on their album and yes I KNEW they were either let go/or fired(noone still knows what actualy went on),they did it all on their own. Sure they had outside help from a few people and it was not Prince. But they did it on their own. They help him write a quite a few songs maybe more. I remember them being credited on a few albums(when they were with him).

Sheila: Had major help from Prince on the two albums I can recall(The one with Glamous Life,I can remember the album name sorry, and Romance 1600). I cant remember Sheila help writing songs from that era unless she did write Erotic City with him(cant remember sorry)

As for the sounds I think Wendy & Lisa had alot to contribute( I remember them writing more) then Sheila. You can correct me if I am wrong. Bu that is wha tI saw from my eyes.

Im not saying she isnt musically talented, that she is!

Interesting question.

Since you say "prince's SOUND" I'd go with W&L, since they influenced his sound from PR through SOTT in terms of instrumentation (Lisa's brother influences some of the middle eastern sounds)and harmonies, exposed him to other genres etc. which showed up in his recorded sounds.

Sheila clearly influences his live performances via her band members who ended up in the Revolution/NPG, starting with Eddie M, then Levi, Boni, Miko etc.

In a way, she had a HUGE influence indirectly via Eric Leeds. He originally tried to audition for Sheila but she had already hired Eddie so he ended up with Prince, and we all know how huge an influence Eric had on P.

I also remember reading somewhere that being around Sheila got P to focus more on live drumming, almost in a competitive way. And that perhaps Tambourine and other songs were the result.

However, I wouldn't say I hear much latin or Sheila influences in his beats, then again I never heard Sexual Suicide.

On antoher note, I think it's interesting to think about what The Glamorous Life would have sounded like pre-Sheila, without all of her intricate percussion work, from the timbales to the cymbal crashes etc. It would not have been the same song!

If you listen to the extended album version you hear tons of subtle, complex percussion that really makes the song. Can you imagine what it might have sounded like as an Apollonia cut as it had been intended(and I"m not even talking about the vocals!)
[Edited 1/12/08 17:30pm]

GaryMF said:

Excellent point!