Graycap23 said:

sexxydancer said:

I'm going to assume neither of you are musicians.

Interesting question.

Since you say "prince's SOUND" I'd go with W&L, since they influenced his sound from PR through SOTT in terms of instrumentation (Lisa's brother influences some of the middle eastern sounds)and harmonies, exposed him to other genres etc. which showed up in his recorded sounds.

Sheila clearly influences his live performances via her band members who ended up in the Revolution/NPG, starting with Eddie M, then Levi, Boni, Miko etc.

In a way, she had a HUGE influence indirectly via Eric Leeds. He originally tried to audition for Sheila but she had already hired Eddie so he ended up with Prince, and we all know how huge an influence Eric had on P.

I also remember reading somewhere that being around Sheila got P to focus more on live drumming, almost in a competitive way. And that perhaps Tambourine and other songs were the result.

However, I wouldn't say I hear much latin or Sheila influences in his beats, then again I never heard Sexual Suicide.

On antoher note, I think it's interesting to think about what The Glamorous Life would have sounded like pre-Sheila, without all of her intricate percussion work, from the timbales to the cymbal crashes etc. It would not have been the same song!

If you listen to the extended album version you hear tons of subtle, complex percussion that really makes the song. Can you imagine what it might have sounded like as an Apollonia cut as it had been intended(and I"m not even talking about the vocals!)
[Edited 1/12/08 17:30pm]

Excellent post.

I've wondered too about how TGL would have sounded if done by Apollonia. I've always assumed that the hook from "Just as Long as We're Together" would have been played up more in a synth line than by horns, so it could have sounded similar to that. But that's just my speculation.

GaryMF said:

Bad assumption.

Efan said:

Thanks! What is "Just As Long as we're Together?"

Graycap23 said:

Interesting. Because it seems that musicians would be a bit more open and cognizant of the fairly obvious influences all 3 women have had musically on him.

One of the 2 people above (and not GrayCap) tends to blindly and automatically post on practically evey thread that mentions another related artist that "prince is great and better than everyone bar none" which is not a particularly open or musically aware attitude IMO.
[Edited 1/14/08 16:19pm]

Im starting to think its me your talking about.

If it is, Im truely sorry! I was only expressing what I was seeing at that age of 14,15,16(so long ago) when they were all in the hieght of the madness. I only stating what I can remember and thought at that time.

I do have some musical background not much.But I actually did like Sheila(dont remember a whole lot at that age,especialy 20 years ago)

My apologies again.
[Edited 1/15/08 2:20am]

Graycap23 said:

Interesting. Because it seems that musicians would be a bit more open and cognizant of the fairly obvious influences all 3 women have had musically on him.


[Edited 1/14/08 16:19pm]

GaryMF said:

I hear what u are saying but knowing Prince as I do, I think some these so called influences receive way more credit than they are DUE.

toots said:

I wasn't referring to you actually, and even if I were, no need to apologize. In fact, my post was probably kinda rude, so I should probably apologize.

But it's nice to meet someone on here who is polite for once!

GaryMF said:

I hear what u are saying but knowing Prince as I do, I think some these so called influences receive way more credit than they are DUE.

Graycap23 said:

Wait a sec here!

These "so-called" influences that you ARE talking about has had music around them since they were kids. ALL OF THEM AS A MATTER OF FACT!

Shiela's father was a well known musician and so were Wendy and Lisa'a fathers.They all knew HOW to read and write music well before they were with Prince. So you calling them "so-called influences" is VERY funny in my book.So really WHO isnt giving the credit where its supposed to be DUE is Prince, for stealing some of their songs and NOT giving them credit on a album, how would you feel about that, if the shoe was on the other foot?????



(me thinks you need to read up a bit more)
[Edited 1/15/08 13:45pm]

I hear what u are saying but knowing Prince as I do, I think some these so called influences receive way more credit than they are DUE.

No argument here. Here is my simple fact:
Prince: 30 years and 60 plus releases.
W&L: X number of years, NOT a single released that I can get into personally.
Sheila E, a few released where the ONLY songs I like were WRITTEN by Prince.

Graycap23 said:

First, I'm glad this thread is turing out to be a civilized discussion even if we don't all agree!

Second, Graycap, I don't mean to pry, but when you say "knowing" do you mean you actually know him personally, or you meant that you feel you "know" him from closely following his career, output over the years etc?

Third,

No one is going to disupte that Prince has been more successful as an artist etc.

I think the original poster was just asking who had more influence on Prince's sound, W&L or Sheila. An interesting quetsion related to what you bring up would be who has been commerically more successful, W&L or Sheila. Though I hate to even bring that up because I think both have bene equally successful, though in different ways.

W&L have built a successful career doing film and TV scoring (Big Love, Carnivale, Crossing Jordan), while Sheila has been an in demand session player, and has musical directed lots of other artists on the road (not to mention the Magic Hour). I think Shiela aslo owns or co-owns a recording studio, not to mention founding her charity and all her charitable work.

Anyway, I think in my other post I already commented on how in a similar way they each influenced P's sound but in different ways.

And to the myopic readers, that does NOT take away from Prince's talent or ability ..... in fact it probably only enhances is reputation since it means he's able to absorb these influences and use them to make something even better.

There seems to always be a lot of discussion about Wendy and Lisa's role in shaping Prince's music in the mid-'80s (and debate over whether that role is over- or understated). But there doesn't seem to be much discussion over Sheila's role in shaping his sound.

Obviously, Prince shaped Sheila's sound, creating the majority of the songs on her WB/Paisley Park albums. But her arrival to his camp on a full-time basis coincided with the change in his drum beats and programming and the presence of more horns, and her band members were often "borrowed" for Prince's band.

I love Wendy and Lisa and believe they contributed greatly to Prince's evolution as a musician during that time--but I'm thinking that Sheila had more influence, and did a lot more uncredited work.

Thoughts?

toots said:

No argument here. Here is my simple fact:
Prince: 30 years and 60 plus releases.
W&L: X number of years, NOT a single released that I can get into personally.
Sheila E, a few released where the ONLY songs I like were WRITTEN by Prince.

I think too much is made of Wendy and Lisa supposedly growing Prince's sound. They contributed what they contributed and once they were gone Prince's sound was totaly different. It's not like he had new talents or deeper understanding or anything. Still, I get your point that they co-wrote a lot of damn good songs.

Sheila, a talented percussionist and drummer, was basicly a girlfriend who could play her own instrument on stage. There is little evidence that she influenced Prince siginificantly as a songwriter or producer. You cannot distinguish her first and third albums much from the music cut on Appolonia and Vanity. Her second album sounds like it was recorded in the psych ward, with Sheila doing her best Prince and Morris Day impressions! There is no genuine latin jazz on any Prince/Sheila E. albums, just a ton of horns and percussion on otherwise by-the-numbers Prince songs. I see no reason to think she might have done more uncredited when she's barely an influence or persona on her own records. She played percussion and looked sexy... and that's about it! I see her as Prince's close friend and another skilled musician along for the ride.

Like I said earlier, I hear u.....I just don't agree. I'd say that neither really had that big of an impact on Prince's sound. Eric Leeds? That's another story.....

Graycap23 said:

Totally agree about Eric (but as I said earlier, he only met Eric cuz he applied to Sheila first! ).

But I also want to pat us on the back again.... we are showing the orgsters how to disagree without being obnoxious!

funksterr said:

Well that kinda proves the point that they did influence his sound while they were there.



I agree with most of this, esp the bold part. Though I do think she influenced him via the band members he picked up from her (Eric, Boni, Miko, Cat, Levi etc.)....and I read in DMSR or somewhere that once she started becoming a drummer (i.e. not just percussionist) this encouraged Prince to get better on the drum kit too to compete with her in a friendly way.
[Edited 1/15/08 15:24pm]

EverlastingNow said:

This was a great post. Thanks for writing it.

I really don't get the Wendy and Lisa thing. I have all of their work, I've sat down and listened 2 it it great detail. There is just NOTHING there. I really WANT 2 like them but their material does not move me in any way, shape or form.

Graycap23 said:

so? And other people like them a lot. That really isn't the point of this thread...your particular take on their material doesn't mean they didn't have an influence.

When was your time of knowing Prince? Were you there for Purple Rain? You hanging in the studio while the projects were being made? If so - then I'll give you some credit. Otherwise you have no first hand knowledge. And if you worked for him or knew him at some other point that means your probably heard the bragging about not needing anyone else. Again - all you really have to do is open your ears to the material and you can feel the various influences through the years. Not just W&L - but certainly them too. As I've said previously, you can feel the lack of musical "influence" (or maybe "inspiration" is more palatable to people) or respect for other opinions in Princes material today.

My opinion... with a bit of experience thrown in;)

I really don't get the Wendy and Lisa thing. I have all of their work, I've sat down and listened 2 it it great detail. There is just NOTHING there. I really WANT 2 like them but their material does not move me in any way, shape or form.

Graycap23 said:

As much as I love W&L, I would agree with you for the most part, except for Song About (which moves me every time because as long time fans, we know what it's about) and SOng About.

I like their other stuff but to be honest don't play it often (and I haven't heard Girlbros so I can't comment on that)

Zannaloaf said:

I completely missed your point. I'm sure u had one.