why does prince.org permit discussions of bootlegged tracks???

why not just shut down the threads where people are discussing stolen work?

it will never lead to anything good

XxAxX said:

why does prince.org permit discussions of bootlegged tracks???

why not just shut down the threads where people are discussing stolen work?

it will never lead to anything good

Lucky for us, discussing bootlegs breaks no laws. Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing.

Why shouldn't fans be able to discuss circulating material? It DOES lead to good things. Bootlegs have helped many fans keep their love of Prince's music going in times when he isn't releasing much.

Let's put it this way, if simple discussion of bootlegs was banned, I'd probably be done participating in this site...

I think the two or three people here who don't collect Prince bootlegs should just avoid clicking on the threads about them.

1) it's not illegal to talk about it

2) people want to talk about it

3) prince hasn't stopped the site from letting people talk about it

I am no lawyer, but from what i understand it's not Illegal to own or collect bootlegs for personal use

The sell of bootlegging is illegal

Some musical groups allow bootleg recordings

Ive head that bands like The Grateful Dead have sections for those who want to record

it will never lead to anything good

Sure it can lead to good

People here at the Org have been discussing bootlegs for years

There is always an appreciation thread for some outtake or what nots

As stated on the banner at the top of the Prince forum:

"ABSOLUTELY NO SOLICITING FOR BOOTLEGS.You want to discuss them? That's fine - but NO OFFERS TO COPY, NO REQUESTS TO COPY, NO "WHERE CAN I GET", etc. NO POSTING OF LINKS TO THESE SITES EITHER. Please be aware that the moderators here strictly enforce this rule."

***********

Discussion of bootlegs is allowed. Posting track lists is allowed as well as art work.

It is not allowed to create threads/posts to hint, tell, where to find/get. Or "I have not heard it", or any variation of hinting/asking/telling, etc.

Selling of bootlegs, to make a profit, is pirating as we all know. That is illegal. Selling of bootlegs in the Marketplace forum is not allowed. The org is not a site for selling/trading bootlegs. This could get you automatically perma banned with the swiftness.

XxAxX said:

why does prince.org permit discussions of bootlegged tracks???

Because many fans want to talk about it and Prince bootlegs are no trade or government secrets = it is not illegal to talk about them, nor does talking about bootlegs constitute copyright infringement. Unless you signed some non-disclosure agreement with Prince on it, you can talk about bootlegs.

why not just shut down the threads where people are discussing stolen work?

Because you may not, but many other people do want to talk about bootlegs. Because for many fans the bootlegs are an important part of why they appreciate and still follow Prince music. So therefore, as long as people are not offering bootlegs or linking to them, or telling where to find them etc, it is also not against the site rules to talk about it. And therefore discussion should not be shut down but allowed.

it will never lead to anything good

I don't see what you mean here. Even Prince himself talks about them. Do you suggest here that if people do not talk about it here in public, there will be no more bootlegging? (how about somewhere else or in private?)

Or do you even suggest that people who talk about it anywhere should be silenced? I am sure you know that would be illegal and also practically impossible, but I am not sure what you are trying to say here really.

[Edited 3/13/13 11:10am]

I forget if it was a written interview or something Prince said during a show somewhere in the mid-late 1990's

But he asked that people don't sell them, if they are going to get them to other people, to give them away (Love 4 1 Another)

Into the late 1980s and early 1990's Prince gave a lot of stuff(unreleased) to band members, friends, and employees. Before he decided to stop the Black album, he gave away copies to employees friends and bandmembers

thank you for your responses, i appreciate the feedback.

i asked because over the last few months, the discussion threads about bootlegs that i've noticed inevitably end up as distribution threads for bootlegs.

mind you, the distribution does not take place here on the ORG, but the bootleg threads are where folks hook up and make contact the more talk there is, the more people are drawn in to the discussion, the more someone says 'this trax rocked' the more others say 'where can i find it' and, you know that because of threads like that.

more people will find out about, access, and trade the bootlegs, than would have been the case had the thread not openly discussed the bootlegs.

in my opinion, the only person who should be distributing the music is the person who composed it.

obviously, i'm an old fart and my thinking is totally, like, analog. but, oh well. thanks for listening.

i hope the ORG does not ever, in the future, face charges regarding being a third-party distributor is all

XxAxX said:

thank you for your responses, i appreciate the feedback.

i asked because over the last few months, the discussion threads about bootlegs that i've noticed inevitably end up as distribution threads for bootlegs.

mind you, the distribution does not take place here on the ORG, but the bootleg threads are where folks hook up and make contact the more talk there is, the more people are drawn in to the discussion, the more someone says 'this trax rocked' the more others say 'where can i find it' and, you know that because of threads like that.

more people will find out about, access, and trade the bootlegs, than would have been the case had the thread not openly discussed the bootlegs.

in my opinion, the only person who should be distributing the music is the person who composed it.

obviously, i'm an old fart and my thinking is totally, like, analog. but, oh well. thanks for listening.

i hope the ORG does not ever, in the future, face charges regarding being a third-party distributor is all

How and for what? You do realize Rolling Stone Magazine reviews bootlegs? As has been stated, reviews and discussions are legal and that is all the org allows. There is no "third-party" distribution going on. Sure, the discussions provide all the key words someone who knows their way around a search engine would need to find the tracks, but, the org is not responsible for that. It's one of the prices of free speech I'd say...

djThunderfunk said:

XxAxX said:

thank you for your responses, i appreciate the feedback.

i asked because over the last few months, the discussion threads about bootlegs that i've noticed inevitably end up as distribution threads for bootlegs.

mind you, the distribution does not take place here on the ORG, but the bootleg threads are where folks hook up and make contact the more talk there is, the more people are drawn in to the discussion, the more someone says 'this trax rocked' the more others say 'where can i find it' and, you know that because of threads like that.

more people will find out about, access, and trade the bootlegs, than would have been the case had the thread not openly discussed the bootlegs.

in my opinion, the only person who should be distributing the music is the person who composed it.

obviously, i'm an old fart and my thinking is totally, like, analog. but, oh well. thanks for listening.

i hope the ORG does not ever, in the future, face charges regarding being a third-party distributor is all

How and for what? You do realize Rolling Stone Magazine reviews bootlegs? As has been stated, reviews and discussions are legal and that is all the org allows. There is no "third-party" distribution going on. Sure, the discussions provide all the key words someone who knows their way around a search engine would need to find the tracks, but, the org is not responsible for that. It's one of the prices of free speech I'd say...

okay, but the only thing i did the other day was mention, on a thread devoted to a bootleg, that i had not yet heard the tune and i was sent the link. right now, like it or not, the ORG could be considered to be functioning as a distribution center. it's a fine, dangerous line to walk. just my 2c

luv4u said:

As stated on the banner at the top of the Prince forum:

"ABSOLUTELY NO SOLICITING FOR BOOTLEGS.You want to discuss them? That's fine - but NO OFFERS TO COPY, NO REQUESTS TO COPY, NO "WHERE CAN I GET", etc. NO POSTING OF LINKS TO THESE SITES EITHER. Please be aware that the moderators here strictly enforce this rule."

***********

Discussion of bootlegs is allowed. Posting track lists is allowed as well as art work.

It is not allowed to create threads/posts to hint, tell, where to find/get. Or "I have not heard it", or any variation of hinting/asking/telling, etc.

Selling of bootlegs, to make a profit, is pirating as we all know. That is illegal. Selling of bootlegs in the Marketplace forum is not allowed. The org is not a site for selling/trading bootlegs. This could get you automatically perma banned with the swiftness.

XxaxX doesn't have a comprehension problem. This is not what she's asking about.

She's posing a larger question about why we allow the disccusions at all.

In other words, I think she's either postulating that the discussions promote

bootlegging, or that that at the very least, may get the org in hot water.

I don't think she was confused about the actual rules.

XxAxX said:

djThunderfunk said:

How and for what? You do realize Rolling Stone Magazine reviews bootlegs? As has been stated, reviews and discussions are legal and that is all the org allows. There is no "third-party" distribution going on. Sure, the discussions provide all the key words someone who knows their way around a search engine would need to find the tracks, but, the org is not responsible for that. It's one of the prices of free speech I'd say...

okay, but the only thing i did the other day was mention, on a thread devoted to a bootleg, that i had not yet heard the tune and i was sent the link. right now, like it or not, the ORG could be considered to be functioning as a distribution center. it's a fine, dangerous line to walk. just my 2c

Hmmm...

On one hand I think: Okay, that was an individual. Not the site.

On the other hand I think: Someone was just trying to be nice to you.

I dunno. I am not, and do not want to be, a mod...

XxAxX said:

djThunderfunk said:

How and for what? You do realize Rolling Stone Magazine reviews bootlegs? As has been stated, reviews and discussions are legal and that is all the org allows. There is no "third-party" distribution going on. Sure, the discussions provide all the key words someone who knows their way around a search engine would need to find the tracks, but, the org is not responsible for that. It's one of the prices of free speech I'd say...

okay, but the only thing i did the other day was mention, on a thread devoted to a bootleg, that i had not yet heard the tune and i was sent the link. right now, like it or not, the ORG could be considered to be functioning as a distribution center. it's a fine, dangerous line to walk. just my 2c

The org didn't send you that link. Plus, you participated in a discussion you now think shouldn't be allowed.

What is the issue, meaning the "fine, dangerous line to walk" here really, when that kind of thing can happen and does happen just as easily on facebook, twitter and also e-mail. Heck you can even send somebody a link by the phone or analogue letters. And if you know how to google, well. Would all those media be functioning as a "distribution center" too? Surely you don't think so.

Also, only sending a link isn't the same thing as actual distributing or copying. Somebody still had to have made the bootleg available to the public on some server and the one receiving the link still has to click on it and then decide to download it. Did you click on it?

I think making the claim here that the org is a "distribution center" that facilitates bootlegging is much more dangerous than just talking about bootlegs. Prohibiting discussion on it, which is a form of prohibiting free speech, wouldn't change a thing really, other than that the org could be shut down just for talking about something and/or that anybody's privacy could be invaded just because some people share links with eachother, but can do it just as easily somewhere else. You might as well close down all the other media that people can do this on and/or let copyright owners invade everybody's privacy wherever then as well.

Following the line of thought you bring up: Perhabs closing or at least vigorously controlling the entire internet on what everybody says and links to would be best. And then only Prince himself should be allowed to ever talk about bootlegs again.

This is not sarcastically meant, but seriously.

[Edited 3/15/13 11:53am]

I also wanted to say/ask this:

The premise of this thread is that bootlegs are wrong and discussion on it leads to (more) bootlegging = copyright infringement = "stolen work".

But are ALL bootlegs really THAT wrong, or does it matter whether somebody does or doesn't pay for it? I know that legally it doesn't make much of a difference; it's still infringement, but normally it will be judged and punished less harshly than when the bootlegging was for commercial purposes.

I am also pretty sure Prince realises that, no matter how much he dislikes and tries to fight bootlegging he can't stop it from happening. He couldn't even stop it from happening in the analogue age of the 80's and 90's so he for sure can't stop it now in the digital age. It also seems to me that he hates bootlegging (much) more when people pay for bootlegs than when they don't. And understandably so. Perhabs he even sees that it promotes his work, in the way that it has helped give him many loyal fans over the decades who would pay for whatever he releases himself.

So shouldn't that be factored in here too?

This is also a serious question, not meant to be sarcastic or anything negative, because I know you aren't either, but that you mean what you say/think.

[Edited 3/15/13 11:54am]

imago said:

luv4u said:

As stated on the banner at the top of the Prince forum:

"ABSOLUTELY NO SOLICITING FOR BOOTLEGS.You want to discuss them? That's fine - but NO OFFERS TO COPY, NO REQUESTS TO COPY, NO "WHERE CAN I GET", etc. NO POSTING OF LINKS TO THESE SITES EITHER. Please be aware that the moderators here strictly enforce this rule."

***********

Discussion of bootlegs is allowed. Posting track lists is allowed as well as art work.

It is not allowed to create threads/posts to hint, tell, where to find/get. Or "I have not heard it", or any variation of hinting/asking/telling, etc.

Selling of bootlegs, to make a profit, is pirating as we all know. That is illegal. Selling of bootlegs in the Marketplace forum is not allowed. The org is not a site for selling/trading bootlegs. This could get you automatically perma banned with the swiftness.

XxaxX doesn't have a comprehension problem. This is not what she's asking about.

She's posing a larger question about why we allow the disccusions at all.

In other words, I think she's either postulating that the discussions promote

bootlegging, or that that at the very least, may get the org in hot water.

I don't think she was confused about the actual rules.

yes. the above

Tremolina said:

I also wanted to say/ask this:

The premise of this thread is that bootlegs are wrong and discussion on it leads to (more) bootlegging = copyright infringement = "stolen work".

But are ALL bootlegs really THAT wrong, or does it matter whether somebody does or doesn't pay for it? I know that legally it doesn't make much of a difference; it's still infringement, but normally it will be judged and punished less harshly than when the bootlegging was for commercial purposes.

I am also pretty sure Prince realises that, no matter how much he dislikes and tries to fight bootlegging he can't stop it from happening. He couldn't even stop it from happening in the analogue age of the 80's and 90's so he for sure can't stop it now in the digital age. It also seems to me that he hates bootlegging (much) more when people pay for bootlegs than when they don't. And understandably so. Perhabs he even sees that it promotes his work, in the way that it has helped give him many loyal fans over the decades who would pay for whatever he releases himself.

So shouldn't that be factored in here too?

This is also a serious question, not meant to be sarcastic or anything negative, because I know you aren't either, but that you mean what you say/think.

[Edited 3/15/13 11:54am]

i think it's clear i stand against illegal distribution of stolen, copyrighted works of art. anything facilitating that mess, for profit or otherwise, is not good, imo.

the fact that the composer of the works in question publicly decries them is the only point that matters, imo. the 'fans' may justify the theft by claiming it helps prince, but really it's still theft

djThunderfunk said:

XxAxX said:

okay, but the only thing i did the other day was mention, on a thread devoted to a bootleg, that i had not yet heard the tune and i was sent the link. right now, like it or not, the ORG could be considered to be functioning as a distribution center. it's a fine, dangerous line to walk. just my 2c

Hmmm...

On one hand I think: Okay, that was an individual. Not the site.

On the other hand I think: Someone was just trying to be nice to you.

I dunno. I am not, and do not want to be, a mod...

it was not the site that provided the link, but the provision of the link arose from my action on this website, and would not have occurred but for the discussion about bootlegs.

XxAxX said:

Tremolina said:

I also wanted to say/ask this:

The premise of this thread is that bootlegs are wrong and discussion on it leads to (more) bootlegging = copyright infringement = "stolen work".

But are ALL bootlegs really THAT wrong, or does it matter whether somebody does or doesn't pay for it? I know that legally it doesn't make much of a difference; it's still infringement, but normally it will be judged and punished less harshly than when the bootlegging was for commercial purposes.

I am also pretty sure Prince realises that, no matter how much he dislikes and tries to fight bootlegging he can't stop it from happening. He couldn't even stop it from happening in the analogue age of the 80's and 90's so he for sure can't stop it now in the digital age. It also seems to me that he hates bootlegging (much) more when people pay for bootlegs than when they don't. And understandably so. Perhabs he even sees that it promotes his work, in the way that it has helped give him many loyal fans over the decades who would pay for whatever he releases himself.

So shouldn't that be factored in here too?

This is also a serious question, not meant to be sarcastic or anything negative, because I know you aren't either, but that you mean what you say/think.

[Edited 3/15/13 11:54am]

i think it's clear i stand against illegal distribution of stolen, copyrighted works of art. anything facilitating that mess, for profit or otherwise, is not good, imo.

the fact that the composer of the works in question publicly decries them is the only point that matters, imo. the 'fans' may justify the theft by claiming it helps prince, but really it's still theft

With the games Prince plays (pretending his own new online venture, 3rdeyegirl.com, is not authorized and is spreading bootlegs, when in fact, it is his newest retail outlet), I would NOT say Prince's opinions on the matter are clear. In fact, I would say he is just as contradictory on this subject as he is on just about everything else he says.

^ i know. that's quite true, what you say about the schedule of releases being a bit quirky. i'm still waiting for him to actually release 'down'. and i have really mixed feelings because i want to find the illegal download and rock out. which i won't talk about here even though I won't do it.

i just don't want to see the ORG shut down or threatened because of this

XxAxX said:

^ i know. that's quite true, what you say about the schedule of releases being a bit quirky. i'm still waiting for him to actually release 'down'. and i have really mixed feelings because i want to find the illegal download and rock out. which i won't talk about here even though I won't do it.

i just don't want to see the ORG shut down or threatened because of this

I don't either. But, the only way that could happen with the current rules on the org is if the owner of the site felt that it wasn't worth the money, the time or the effort to prove in court that no law is being broken. Which, iirc, is exactly what happened with Housequake.com.

If things were to go down like that here, what remains of Prince's long-time fanbase would dwindle to nearly nothing, no?

XxAxX said:

Tremolina said:

I also wanted to say/ask this:

The premise of this thread is that bootlegs are wrong and discussion on it leads to (more) bootlegging = copyright infringement = "stolen work".

But are ALL bootlegs really THAT wrong, or does it matter whether somebody does or doesn't pay for it? I know that legally it doesn't make much of a difference; it's still infringement, but normally it will be judged and punished less harshly than when the bootlegging was for commercial purposes.

I am also pretty sure Prince realises that, no matter how much he dislikes and tries to fight bootlegging he can't stop it from happening. He couldn't even stop it from happening in the analogue age of the 80's and 90's so he for sure can't stop it now in the digital age. It also seems to me that he hates bootlegging (much) more when people pay for bootlegs than when they don't. And understandably so. Perhabs he even sees that it promotes his work, in the way that it has helped give him many loyal fans over the decades who would pay for whatever he releases himself.

So shouldn't that be factored in here too?

This is also a serious question, not meant to be sarcastic or anything negative, because I know you aren't either, but that you mean what you say/think.

[Edited 3/15/13 11:54am]

i think it's clear i stand against illegal distribution of stolen, copyrighted works of art. anything facilitating that mess, for profit or otherwise, is not good, imo.

the fact that the composer of the works in question publicly decries them is the only point that matters, imo. the 'fans' may justify the theft by claiming it helps prince, but really it's still theft

Yes it's clear, but I was hoping that you would be open to reason and reality also. I remember back in the day late80's/early 90's there were fan networks also. Simply friends who would share tapes with eachother. Out of joy and love for the music. Not to "steal" anything. I am sorry to see that you are so rigid and negative. There is a lot of grey in this issue, also in the legal area and I hope one day you will see it. In the meantime I hope you will not do any more damage that may take the org down.

XxAxX said:

^ i know. that's quite true, what you say about the schedule of releases being a bit quirky. i'm still waiting for him to actually release 'down'. and i have really mixed feelings because i want to find the illegal download and rock out. which i won't talk about here even though I won't do it.

i just don't want to see the ORG shut down or threatened because of this

So you do understand.

Why di you have to go public and didn't think it would be better to

send a orgnote to the moderators or Ben about your worries.

XxAxX said:

^ i know. that's quite true, what you say about the schedule of releases being a bit quirky. i'm still waiting for him to actually release 'down'. and i have really mixed feelings because i want to find the illegal download and rock out. which i won't talk about here even though I won't do it.

i just don't want to see the ORG shut down or threatened because of this

you should format your computer to remove all signs of the link you were sent in case prince sues you. i would also remove the hard drive and put an eletric drill through it just in case, and then never return to the internets ever again, just in case you see something else you don't like

XxAxX said:

^ i know. that's quite true, what you say about the schedule of releases being a bit quirky. i'm still waiting for him to actually release 'down'. and i have really mixed feelings because i want to find the illegal download and rock out. which i won't talk about here even though I won't do it.

i just don't want to see the ORG shut down or threatened because of this

So you consider this thread here mentioning the link that was sent to you by someone in a PM a good idea then ?

[Edited 3/18/13 9:01am]

Tremolina said:

XxAxX said:

^ i know. that's quite true, what you say about the schedule of releases being a bit quirky. i'm still waiting for him to actually release 'down'. and i have really mixed feelings because i want to find the illegal download and rock out. which i won't talk about here even though I won't do it.

i just don't want to see the ORG shut down or threatened because of this

So you do understand.

Why di you have to go public and didn't think it would be better to

send a orgnote to the moderators or Ben about your worries.

Yeah this thread is a much bigger risk to get the org shut down than the discussing of bootleg material....

[Edited 3/18/13 8:50am]

XxAxX said:

Tremolina said:

I also wanted to say/ask this:

The premise of this thread is that bootlegs are wrong and discussion on it leads to (more) bootlegging = copyright infringement = "stolen work".

But are ALL bootlegs really THAT wrong, or does it matter whether somebody does or doesn't pay for it? I know that legally it doesn't make much of a difference; it's still infringement, but normally it will be judged and punished less harshly than when the bootlegging was for commercial purposes.

I am also pretty sure Prince realises that, no matter how much he dislikes and tries to fight bootlegging he can't stop it from happening. He couldn't even stop it from happening in the analogue age of the 80's and 90's so he for sure can't stop it now in the digital age. It also seems to me that he hates bootlegging (much) more when people pay for bootlegs than when they don't. And understandably so. Perhabs he even sees that it promotes his work, in the way that it has helped give him many loyal fans over the decades who would pay for whatever he releases himself.

So shouldn't that be factored in here too?

This is also a serious question, not meant to be sarcastic or anything negative, because I know you aren't either, but that you mean what you say/think.

[Edited 3/15/13 11:54am]

i think it's clear i stand against illegal distribution of stolen, copyrighted works of art. anything facilitating that mess, for profit or otherwise, is not good, imo.

the fact that the composer of the works in question publicly decries them is the only point that matters, imo. the 'fans' may justify the theft by claiming it helps prince, but really it's still theft

Yes it may still be theft but I personally know so many of Prince fans who would not have ever become big fans of him and/or stopped being fans of him years ago if it was not for bootlegs. They all bought a lot more official releases because of bootlegs that got/kept them interested in his work. And payed for concert tickets because of that as well. And I never met one single fan who did not become at least more of a fan of him through bootlegs. As Prince apparently cares so much to be number 1 at the bank he should thank Jehova that bootlegs exist IMO.....

Tremolina said:

XxAxX said:

i think it's clear i stand against illegal distribution of stolen, copyrighted works of art. anything facilitating that mess, for profit or otherwise, is not good, imo.

the fact that the composer of the works in question publicly decries them is the only point that matters, imo. the 'fans' may justify the theft by claiming it helps prince, but really it's still theft

Yes it's clear, but I was hoping that you would be open to reason and reality also. I remember back in the day late80's/early 90's there were fan networks also. Simply friends who would share tapes with eachother. Out of joy and love for the music. Not to "steal" anything. I am sorry to see that you are so rigid and negative. There is a lot of grey in this issue, also in the legal area and I hope one day you will see it. In the meantime I hope you will not do any more damage that may take the org down.

XxAxX said:

^ i know. that's quite true, what you say about the schedule of releases being a bit quirky. i'm still waiting for him to actually release 'down'. and i have really mixed feelings because i want to find the illegal download and rock out. which i won't talk about here even though I won't do it.

i just don't want to see the ORG shut down or threatened because of this

Why do you want to do that if you consider it morally wrong???? I don't get that at all....