CarrieMpls said:

I agree. That's why I've asked for clarity as to what constitutes baiting. It's unclear and it varies from mod to mod. That's why there are so many problems that come up because some mods hold some orgers to different standards while also allowing certain orgers more leeway in exactly the same scenarios.

MuthaFunka said:

And here you see the crux of why there may appear to be inconsistencies. You hit the nail on the head. What one person sees as bait, another doesn't. Ultimately, that's what we mods are here for. To be the one to make that judgement call. Honestly, we do the best we can.
But either way we call it, someone's gonna be unhappy with what we do.

Imago said:

You can hang out somewhere else, you know.

MuthaFunka said:

i think taking the responsibility to NOT engage with certain people is telling of one's self-control moreso than the person's environment. there are several people at my job who i choose not to engage in conversations with outside of what's absolutely necessary in order for me to do my work. why? because given past conversations, i can count on something unpleasant happening. and i don't want unpleasant. i don't want to get in any debates or arguments or prove i'm right and they're wrong about ANYTHING, i just want them to leave me alone. on the other hand, there are certain other people i can have very heated debates with, but it's okay because we understand each other's boundaries and there's trust there, so we can go at it and not worry about it getting ugly.

just because someone's standing in the middle of a field waving a red flag doesn't mean you're obligated to go charging at them.

CarrieMpls said:

But when there's nothing written on those exact infractions, how can the mods expect the orgers to "do right" when the mods can't even agree universally on those same infractions? See the dilema in that? There's too much ambiguous interpretation, and when 1 or 2 mods are usually the ones doing most of the interpretation, it can EASILY get slanted in favor or against particular orgers. That's when the shit gets all fucked up and the accusations of "favoritism" and "stalking" and "targeting" begin to surface like crazy.

Imago said:

And that's IT in a nutsack!

MuthaFunka said:

And the posts above that addressed that, Mars, Anxy and Mach's, define that out about as well as we're gonna get here.

Anxiety said:

But, you also have a boss to go to to deal with these issues in order to make your work environment better. Same thing here - they're called mods. Sure, we have the option of going elsewhere, but is that the end game to all of this? I should hope not.

CarrieMpls said:

True that. And that's also why threads like these will persist.

CarrieMpls said:

I enjoy watching you feed the cats and change their litter boxes

Imago said:

That's kinda creepy.

CarrieMpls said:

You should see what I enjoy watching Anxiety do

MuthaFunka said:

well, at work we have something better than bosses to go to - we have an HR department...which i think may be a more apt analogy. and a good HR person won't just hear someone say "JOE SCHMOE WAS JUST MEAN TO ME AND YOU SHOULD FIRE HIM!!!" chances are, there's a deeper story, and oftentimes the complainer isn't always 100% innocent in the matter. now, they might be 80 or 90 percent innocent, but it's that 10 or 20 percent that a good HR person has to look at to see the bigger picture.

some people just have it out for everyone. some people have very specific grudges. some people don't like other people because of their political or religious beliefs. some people are racists or homophobes or sexists or ageists. there are so many reasons for people to want to see other people get in trouble and be removed from a particular environment. sometimes it's as simple as a pissing match - who's gonna be the alpha dog? sheesh. you wanna be king of the mountain at my cubicle farm workplace? shall i polish your crown, sir?

I don't think the final result should be "go somewhere else". I do think, however, that when I slap someone on the wrist on this site for baiting or trolling, I've been doing this modding stuff long enough to know when it's going on, so for me, the burden of proof is on the person who posted the questionable comment to make me believe that their comment wasn't meant to be hurtful or malicious toward anyone. Sure, I could be wrong, and I *have* been wrong. But my track history of being wrong isn't what's kept me here for over five years, so I've come to trust my spidey sense on such things.

I can't speak for every mod or explain why every mod makes the decisions they do. I can only speak for my experience. I don't mod P&R or GD. I do know that there are ongoing situations that are very specific to those forums. Same with the forums I mod. I understand the "culture" of the forums I mod much better, and those who mod the other forums understand the "culture" of those forums better than I do. It's difficult to make a blanket observation about how the entire site is moderated when GD is so much different than P:M&M, which is so much different than P&R, and so on.

Not impossible, but difficult.

Anxiety said:

I dig most of your assessment, and that's why the "Get the instigator" was so effective at out site because it eliminates a lot of the "guess work" in dealing with squabbles. It's one sweeping rule that holds no favorites and no grudges. "You start it, it ends with you" regardless of who fired back or how many - case closed.

MuthaFunka said:

[snip - CarrieMpls - let's keep this general about the topic and avoid personal attacks, please!]

CarrieMpls said:

What I don't agree with is that ONLY the posts that are reported are dealt with. This is unfair. I have a newborn baby, I simply do not have the spare time here to sit and wait on threads for responses to my posts. I have a quick opinion and post it, then I have to leave for whatever reason and come back later. I've been accused of hit and run posting, and it's only because I can't spend a large amount of time here like some others can.

You guys need to look at what preceeds the posts that are reported. I don't have time to report every single thing that offends me. That's YOUR job.

Oh and btw, I have to leave now, so I'm not gonna be here to respond, doesn't mean I'm doing anything malicious.
[Edited 7/9/09 10:15am]

GetAwayFromMe said:

[snip - CarrieMpls - let's keep this general about the topic please!]

GetAwayFromMe said:

My job as a mod isn’t to read every single post on every single thread. If it were, none of us would have signed up for the job. We don’t have time for that.

Perhaps when you report a post, you start with the first in the series and note that it goes on for about x amount of posts. That would help us tremendously. As much context as you can put into the report will help us understand why someone thinks a report breaks the rules, or why it may constitute as “bait”.

As for the hit and run posting, I really don’t know what you’re talking about and I’m not sure how it pertains to this discussion.

CarrieMpls said:

I think many orgers misunderstand this and do think we have/make the time to read every post on every thread

We have lives, work, family and all the same things others who post on here have

Sometimes days go by and I do not read a single thing here
Sometimes I read a lot - other times a little bit

SOMETIMES I am JUST an orger enjoying p.org - NOT Mach the Mod

MuthaFunka said:

See what I mean. Mine wasn't even a personal attack. This is the exact issue at hand.

MuthaFunka said:

Am I an asshole if I say "Get over it"? Because that's what I want to say here.

I snipped your post because it was in response to the other. Both were taking it off topic, away from the general topic of the thread.

I appreciate your suggestion of ONLY dealing with the instigator and I think Anxy has done an excellent job of explaining why we deal with all sides of a situation. I would say I agree with his approach and explination of why we handle it that way.

CarrieMpls said:

No, that wouldn't make you an asshole, but that would be defeating the purpose of this very thread - to combat and clarify what baiting is. My comments weren't a personal attack but it was attached with that very comment. That's all I was pointing out.

MuthaFunka said:

aahhh... gotcha. Yeah, that was sloppy editing on my part.

CarrieMpls said:

And I was thinking "She probably just rubber stamped it without realizing it wasn't a personal attack just to keep the thread moving".

oh my god.

TAKING A LITTLE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN WORDS IS NOT A CRIME, PEOPLE.

don't lay it all on the mods' feet.

don't start with the "they started it!!!" routine.

sometimes, just freakin have the stones to say "you know what, things got a little heated, i went on blast mode, i'm sorry about that."

don't worry about what the other person did. don't take us to task for not being diligent enough or what-the-hell-ever.

OWN YOUR WORDS. OWN YOUR EMOTIONS. if you have a child and they just walk up to a stranger and punches them in the junk, do you blame the stranger for having genitals or do you apologize for your child's behavior? if you can take responsibility for a child, what's the big challenge in taking responsibility for what comes out of your own mouth or what your fingers type on a web forum?

it's not always *your* fault, sure...but i'm a hell of a lot more inclined to listen to someone who apologizes for their part in a flame war than i am to listen to someone who's 100% "THEY! THEY! THEY!"

nobody's perfect, but damn. every now and then, just take a minute to consider YOUR part in whatever fracas has you hot under the collar.

(and i'm not talking to anyone specifically...i mean a generalized, generic "YOU"...i mean EVERYONE.)


rant over,
anx

Anxiety said:

I thought that I had tried to own responsibility up above, but got snipped anyway. I was under the false impression that the mods were looking at threads thoroughly because well, that's what they have the job for, correct?

I'm really not trying to be mean, but if you volunteer for a job and then complain when you're asked to do the job, ummm, I just don't see why you get mad at us when we want you to perform.

So, the moral of the story is to not depend on the moderation? To moderate ourselves, and to allow bias to take over? Hmmm...

GetAwayFromMe said:

I would say the moral of the story is absolutely to moderate yourselves. I couldn't have said it better myself.

I'll say it again.

MODERATE YOURSELVES!!!!!

We'll ALL be happier if there's nothing for the mods to do. Cause that means everyone is following the freaking rules.

And I'm not sure where you get that we don't moderate things that aren't reported. I mentioned above that we do that all the time. Only that if you see something that you think should be dealt with, report it. If something you think should be snipped or moderated isn't yet, it's most likely cause we haven't seen it. It could be because we disagree about whether it breaks the rules or not too. But you won't know unless you report it.

And no, we don't go through every post with a fine-toothed comb. That's why we have a report feature. We depend on the community to help us out.

Anxiety said:

Which is another perfect example of employing the "Snip/Ban Instigator Only" rule once it's apparent that it's getting outof hand.

CarrieMpls said:

What is the point of having moderators if the moderators themselves are telling us to moderate our own shit? LMAO!

What I said was that you guys ONLY MODERDATE WHAT IS REPORTED. THIS IS UNFAIR.

Scenario for you: If I am disliked by a certain number of individuals, they can report every single post I write, making it SEEM like I am something that I am not. And since you guys don't read everything, you've just admitted, there is no way you could possibly moderate correctly, because you're relying on some maybe not so honest people who are TRYING to get other people banned. So I ask again, what is the point of having moderators in the first frickin' place if you're not really moderating every thread!!!!

I so don't get this place....it's like the blind leading the blind here sometimes. If you could see the look on my face right now, I am absolutely dumbfounded by the lack of responsibility on the part of moderation. Can I be a moderator?

Jesus, you can't say anything around here anymore. Or at least, I can't. But that's because I've been reported more than some, eh?

Anxiety said:

All I'm sayin is it doesn't hurt to spay, neuter, and de-claw some of the cats and send them outside to catch rats from time to time.

Besides, if the situation were flipped, wouldn't like to get moderated good and hard from time to time? I think you know the answer to that already.