I'm not understanding that after all the threads we've had, and discussion about this topic, that there is still moderation occurring where the mods in question don't inform those they're taking action on about what they've done? It seems so basic to me to simply tell someone why they've had action taken against them and follow up along those lines, and yet this kind of thing still continues.

i think the MOD here do a great job .....LET it GO.. i am sure it's hard with 3 good ppl online and 99 million fools

RipPoPtheregoMYTOP said:

oh no! i've said in this forum tons that there are mods who do an amazing job, i'm just questioning why this particular practice is happening- not all the mods are doing it/have done it by any means.

like i said let it go

RipPoPtheregoMYTOP said:

i don't see the problem with raising an issue, if you don't care why keep posting?

the mods here do a great job .all of em

RipPoPtheregoMYTOP said:

that's one opinion, however there are others.

evenstar3 said:

Perhaps it is not misuse at all

Perhaps there is yet another org glitch that makes the mandatory file we have to fill out not get sent - cuz we have to fill one out - really

I brought it up just now on the Mod/Ben mailing list ...

Mach said:

i can see how that would happen damn org bugs

thanks mach

evenstar3 said:

Recently- I HOPE it's okay to share this info ...

When the Org crashed for those several days and then came back up. On the Mod mailing list all the sudden missing posts from 2007 showed up - some weird glitch held them back then tossed them out

so again, it may not be misuse of moderation at all really

Mach said:

i'll second mach's theory...it's very possible that the lack of explanation could be a case of delayed reaction on the server's part. a lot of old sludge gurgled up in my e-mail inbox when the org server crashed and came back up, so it's a definite possibility.

I still think the permaban should be used only for spambots.

1 & 2 month bans should be used instead.

Spookymuffin said:

It seems that often times Perma banned orgers return in some fashion
( account ) or another which might be seen as proof that perma banning does not work 100% . It seems that some perma banned users come back and are allowed to stay - some arnt. I find that strange

I personally, though I understand the whys of it, do not see the perma ban as a successful tool

I do support Ben's choice in using it as a tool here on the Org though

I have noticed that there has been a huge lack of communication by some mods and other mods are very informative.
I guess it just comes down to the individual mod.

Spookymuffin said:

I second this... I miss my friend, he may have not been too popular, but I wish he were back. He was a trip and misunderstood... if they all come back in a month or two, that would be very nice.

Mach said:

I don't know of this situation ever taking place, nor do I condone it. If permabanned, all like accounts should/will be permabanned as well. If it is noticed that the user is back, that user is permabanned as well. If it is known that a permabanned member is back and nothing is done about it, that's news to me.

Not to say that it should be considered the best option to use, but, if used should be one that is made after careful consideration of the violations, facts and history. I myself have made errors in judgement on this very issue. It is with this in mind that I offer my opinion.

I've said it before though, it is a necessary evil.

June7 said:

Orgnote about the user at this time that was mentioned on our Mod page by sos, a perma banned orger with a questionable history that is posting in GD

MrsMdiver said:

Humans are human

Mod or not, we are all different

Mach said:

Yep.

Mach said:

Agreed, it needs to exist. I still think only for spambots though. I mean, it's just that I sit back and look at this place and I think:

"It's a Prince. Fan. Site."

Then I fail to see how anything can be serious enough, bar cyber-bullying and harrassment, to merit a permaban. Particularly given how closely-knit the community is. The permanent loss of a member always seems very unjustified to me, particularly an active one. A very harsh punishment is better. I really do think very long bans should be implemented in, rather than permabans. Could we have this issue raised with Ben? I would email him, but..well...we all know that goes nowhere.

Maybe ask it in the mods' google discussion group?

June7 said:

I can, despite my rage ages ago after my banning, see the need for the existence of a permanent ban for trolls, bots and spammers. I just think it is an incredibly serious tool to wield and can, rightly or wrongly, be used very easily as a tool to fix a very heated, complex situation, when perhaps just several varying-in-severity bans to the involved orgers, based on their records could be used.

.
[Edited 6/16/08 13:12pm]

Spookymuffin said:

But that's just it... how long and often should we continue to temp ban people. There has to be an end, a last resort. You can only say, "I'm telling you for the last time" so many "last times"! A promise of a "final action" must be in the mix, and a follow-through on those who wish to ignore the warnings must be utilized. If a threat of a permaban won't make them change their ways, how can a repetitive warning with no fear of an end result, help?

June7 said:

This problem I can understand, but I do feel giving someone say, a 6-month ban with a warning of the next one being a 12-month (virtually permanent!), will mean that a) they spend enough time away from the site to potentially get bored of it and simply leave of their own volition, and b) be a far stronger incentive to be good rather than, say, a 2-week ban.

Also, I raised this before, but more as a side-thought, however this time perhaps we could actively discuss it, but what about permanent banning from certain forums? i.e. Banned from P&R, but not GD? I think that would be a truly effective way of stopping GD minor issues resulting in larger, lengthier bans due to someone's P&R rep - we all know politics and debates get heated, especially with the mix we have here - so this may prove an effective solution?

I have brought up on the Mod list ~

What about a perma ban type option for the Forum in which an orger can NOT
( chooses not to ) behave in

Let's take spookymuff ( JOKE here peeps ! ) we could perma ban him from GD where he is such a nasty bad boy but continue to allow him to post in P&R where his posts are brilliant

Just a thought/idea

OMG Ben ...

great minds

Mach said:

I don't go in P&R anymore.

But yes, I really think that might be the best solution.

Not naming names, but we do know of several (not just one) orgers who are hell in P&R, but totally fine in GD - so why permanently ban them from the whole site?
[Edited 6/16/08 14:23pm]

ya know, i'm going to borrow from the wisdom of my dearly departed mother, who once ended an argument about the death penalty by yelling in my face "WELL IF WE DON'T MURDER ANYONE, IT'S A MOOT DAMN POINT FOR BOTH OF US, OKAY?!?"

and while she could have worded it more in more genteel terms (it would have been much less entertaining), she did have a point.

don't behave like an ass and you won't get banned.

don't behave like an ass repeatedly and you won't get permabanned.

it's really not terribly difficult.

i know we get into some heated discussions on here and tempers can flare high and wide. lord knows, i am aware of this.

but there's a point where, ya know what, this may "only" be the internet but you're still interacting with other people, and you have to act like you have some home training, common courtesy and respect.

i'm not saying we all have to be emily post, but come on now.

how hard is it to just fucking be NICE?

spooky, i do "get" a lot of what you're saying, but i still think it works both way. whether the mods soften our ban structure or not, we still expect people to behave like they have some sense. you know?

Anxiety said:

I completely get what you're saying too. I think where the problem arises from people having differing opinions of what "being an ass" entails. Permabans are surprising to individuals because much of the time they weren't aware of having crossed such a serious line as to be permabanned. On the flip side of the coin, I know that many permabans come after repeated warnings and temp bans, but there will always be that small percentage who are taken aback/overly-severely punished.

I don't think it's a softening of the banning structure that's being called for either, but rather a re-organisation. The jump from 2-week ban to permaban seems just too great for me, when you consider how active, and how involved (even in a relationship, etc) some users are with this site.

Perhaps even some private email correspondance could be held with such individuals prior to their receiving a permaban if they are facing one imminently (one last chance to justify themselves and swear to never do it again - mod would then have email evidence as justification for permaban if said user reoffended, etc). I still prefer more tiers being introduced though. I do think a 6-month ban would be a more suitable deterrent. Or a permaban from a specific forum.

Spookymuffin said:

i think it would be...interesting...if we could permaban people from a specific forum. i don't know if it would work or if it would be a complete mess, but i wish we had that capability, just to see how it would work out.

personally, i take permabanning VERY seriously. if someone thinks i'm being overly capricious or arbitrary in a moderation decision, i wanna hear about it. and 99% of the time, when someone challenges a decision i make, even if it's a minor locked thread issue, i do what i can to explain my decision and/or hear out the complaints.

i'd like to think all of us mods do that. i don't think any of us throw around permabans like they were lawn darts at a sunday barbecue. i think we all want people to be able to interact with each other openly and we want to do as little as possible to hinder that process, cuz it goes against the whole concept of "community". and "community" is kinda the whole schtick of the org, when it comes right down to it.

i think there are extremely valid reasons for permabans, some of which have been offered on this very thread. still and all, maybe this is a good time for us mods to revisit what those reasons are.

Anxiety said:

I'm glad this may go somewhere. I'm not criticising the mods' use of it - I don't think it is over-used, or used willy-nilly, but I do think its severity as a next step is something that needs to be evaluated. It is a necessary tool, but one that I feel really should be a last resort with many users here.