Dear Ben,

My name is Ivy and I have been an active member of this community for over seven years. During this time, I have gained a reputation for being one of the more difficult, outspoken Orgers. I speak out when I feel there is an injustice here, even when people tell me to stop being so serious, this is not a democracy, etc. Regardless, this has been a place that I have come to love because of the sense of community here. I have made many friends.

My reasons for writing this are for many reasons:

The racism displayed is out of control. The same Orgers are drawn to race thread and do the same baiting and making offensive comments with no consequence.

The trolling is making it more difficult to enjoy the site.

The favoritism shown by mods is becoming more and more evident every day. Permanently banned Orgers who are friends/friendly with mods are allowed to stay while others are not. Permanently banned Orgers even post pictures of themselves here. I do not particularly care if this goes on but at least be fair about it. One stays, all stay. One goes, all go.

There are no uniform rules to the site. I do understand that what one person finds offensive, another may not and ultimately the mods have last word but what if more than one person finds something offensive? Can we have more hard and set rules? Can we have additional rules?

Mods are not responding to requests for the actions taken against Orgers.

I am just one person and I know what I say really doesn’t amount to a hill of beans but I am not the only person to feel this way. I love this place and always have. I do not like what it has become.

Stymie said:

I'm with you 100%...and might I add.

No one wants to come to a place where we are bound and shackled by rules or cernsorship. But rules and cencorship are what is needed to keep this a respectable place. We all agree with this, I'm sure. But it appears that hard rules are needed just as much for the moderators as they are for the regular joe. It's been said 1000s of times in the past. And I help devise and enforce policies and rules at my place of employment for over 1000 employees. It's difficult, and oft times down right annoying. But it's not impossible nor is anything set in stone. Just saying...

Co-

Racism is an issue in P&R for sure.
I woke up to a thread called:

Was There Ever A Time In Your Life That You (ALMOST) Hated White People From USA?

I was surprised how many replies it got.
Really, I cannot imagine that thread being posted regarding any other race.

Luckily the mods had sense to remove it.

hi Ben! just wanted to say that this is a really fun place to hang on the internet and, despite a few glitches here and there, one of the best fansites i've ever seen.

thanks again for your patience!
[Edited 5/28/08 6:34am]

SCNDLS said:

Co-co-
I don't post in areas like P&R because of all the racist talk over there and stuff like trolling is all over areas like P:M&M and all of it is disturbing. I hope Ivy's letter does not fall on deaf ears.
[Edited 5/28/08 8:10am]

This website is not a sanctuary.

Though it'd be incredible for this place to be a place which, solely, welcomed everyone with open arms regardless of personal differences, it's never going to happen--and wishing for it is a waste of time. This place is no different than real life in the regard that there are always going to be hateful people coming here for the purpose of hurting others.

Just like in real life, we've got to pick and choose our battles, and that means picking and choosing whom we want to acknowledge. We choose our friends as well. The moderators, even in perfect circumstances, do not have the means (technologically, time-wise, or effort-wise) to permanently ban assholes and/or moderate us in a way where we ALL seem fit as we ALL have different opinions on what is and isn't politically correct.

This place simply isn't paradise and wanting it to be anything other than what it is is a waste of time. We're all adults--let's spend our time worrying about the things we CAN change. Seriously, just like we must ignore racists in our personal circles in real life, we've got to do it on here. That goes for all other hateful people. Let them be miserable. Don't waste another moment of your time thinking you can either ban or change people who don't want to be banned or changed.

Co-sign to everthing said , especially the trolling , I've been giving P:M &M a wide berth for the last few weeks and will be for the foreseeable future , I simply dont enjoy it there anymore . Maybe in the future we'll have some new mods who actually care about the state of that section of the site and don't just see it as an inconvenient stop on the way on the way to the General Discussion forum . It's a shame .

moonshine said:

Moonshine, I couldn't have said it any better if I tried, especially the last part about GD. What this all comes down to is respect. It's been 9 years since I joined the org and while it's been rough here from the start, it's been steadily going further down the drain each year and now it's to the point where I don't enjoy coming here either. The whole site is just depressing. It's because I'm still a Prince fan that I come here but the lack of respect amongst orgers is just amazing and disturbing. I would hope that the mods here are more vigilant in going after those who make it a point to be disrespectful in all areas of this site. This site is too good for it to go in the direction that it's going and I hope that things will get better here soon.

Stymie said:

Ivy....I've gotten to the point where it doesn't matter anymore. I know that's not a good thing, but I'm tired.

Stymie said:

The follow is my opinion only and not necessarily the "official" views of prince.org.

I really must take issue with the suggestion that we tolerate racism on the site. Probably the quickest way to get a prince.org account permanently banned is to post a blatantly racist remark. We're extremely serious about that. The same goes for homophobic comments or other hate speech.

"Baiting" has been an issue, yes. In a handful of cases I've seen, it's questionable whether the poster was trying to start a flame war or simply expressing an unpopular opinion. Also, race is a sensitive issue, and discussions of race seem to provoke heated comments. (That's one of the major reasons why we have a separate Politics & Religion forum.)

But in situations where it's clear that the user is trying to stir up trouble, we won't hesitate to remove the offending post and impose sanctions against the user, which can include suspensions or a permanent ban. I've seen records of many such sanctions in the moderation logs, and I've imposed them myself at times. Genuine baiting is something that needs to be dealt with quickly and severely IMHO, in part because it provokes a slew of replies that require editing and/or removal, along with a large amount of moderator time and effort for the cleanup job.



If you see a permanently banned .orger who's returned to the site under another account, please report this to the mods. (Remember that we're unable to review every single post, due to the high traffic on the forums, and so we depend a great deal upon user reports.) Alternate accounts of banned users are subject to being banned on sight, period.

Lately we have had some criticism over perceived favoritism because of disparities in sanctions imposed against different users for similar behavior. Without going into too much detail, it's important to note that moderation decisions are made on a case-by-case basis, and they often take into account information that we typically don't make public, such as a user's history of past rule violations. Here's an example:

Let's say that two users, X and Y, have a pattern of engaging in the same type of behavior. They both get privately reprimanded, suspended, and eventually told that one more infraction will result in a perma-ban. X chooses to heed the warning, but Y doesn't and gets perma-banned as a result. This often provokes an outcry from users who call for the head of X and complain of favoritism, when in reality, X didn't get banned because he (finally) started refraining from the behavior that got Y booted for good. What seems like a double standard is actually nothing more than taking into account the individual circumstances surrounding each user.

* * *

I'm sorry if I seem dismissive of your concerns. We have room for improvement (and always will), but I felt these two issues strongly called for an alternative view from a mod perspective. I do hope that other mods -- and Ben -- will jump in and offer their . I'll address another one of your concerns in a separate reply.

Stymie said:

This is a challenge. In my experience, hard and fast rules -- even ones enacted with good intentions -- have a way of producing bad moderation decisions. (Exhibit "A" is the former three-strikes rule.) One reason is that they restrict the ability of a moderator to take into account the unique circumstances of each incident. Another problem is that they make it easier for troublemakers to exploit loopholes in the rules and then cry foul when they're sanctioned for something that arguably doesn't constitute a violation of the letter of the law.

Also, despite the site being a "benevolent dictatorship," on the whole, we're pretty laid-back. I think many users like that, and I fear that getting too strict with rules could drive folks away.

That said, I'm certainly interested in suggestions. Do you -- or anybody -- have ideas for specific rules that you'd like to see added? Is there certain conduct that you think should be explicitly forbidden? Sanctions that should be automatically imposed for certain conduct? Something else? Let's hear it!

matt said:

.. an example

.. i know P&R is a tough forum and not too many Moderators over there right now .. i dont understand why if a person doesnt like a topic, why are they posting in it to start trouble? at the top of the forum states rules..


Civility, respect and tolerance must be maintained at all times. Disagree if you wish, but do not attack other individuals on the basis of their beliefs.


.. and yet, people will still come and attack the Bible and what they dont like, if u dont believe, then dont even post, but it's like people have something to prove by commenting bad posts and 'want' to fight.. and they whine and cry and have to say it in 20 threads a week .. to prove what to who? .. we already know your opinion, so why are you saying it in 20 different threads? if u dont like a thread, leave the thread alone.. if u dont like church, the Bible, just move on... "Happy Birthday Israel" thread couldnt just stay on celebration, no, .. all other nonsense comes into the thread.. and it's a Birthday thread .. just sayin' folks have something to prove cause they have no self restrain to just move along ..which is what is wrong anyway.. no self control (and yes, even i have blown up in threads, but i learned to move on and let it go.. i dont have to state my opinion in 20 different threads..) ..my question is... if people have a pattern of this behavior, (of being confrontational always on subjects they shouldnt be posting on) .. shouldnt they be censored? cause really, people refuse to be mature enough to move along, maybe a Moderator can help them... this is not about 'controlling' people either... if a person really wants peace, then they should 'show it' and move along.... (i have a candidate in mind to vote for, for president.. does that mean i jump in every thread of the opposing candidate to bait? but this is what people are doing)


Civility, respect and tolerance must be maintained at all times. Disagree if you wish, but do not attack other individuals on the basis of their beliefs.

I have only been posting in P&R since 2003 so I am not a long time veteran in the forum like some others but as I have said recently, I have noticed a change as of late.

Maybe it is just me but when I started in P&R back then I could disagree with someone and express my opinion. Now it seems that there is a strong divide. If you do not agree with someone it becomes personal and the fact that it is an open forum gets lost.
I do not think there is anything the mods can do about this if ppl are going to judge someone solely on who they believe should win the election or what religion they are.
I have taken advice from mods that have told me to take things up in orgnotes when I feel that someone is being unfair or misunderstanding me. That worked long ago and I have gotten to know some great ppl better that way.
I have found as of late that some ppl are so busy judging one another on one issue or what they "believe" someones intentions are to bother getting to know that person's true opinions as a human being.
I used to enjoy contributing to many of the threads in P&R but lately I feel that there is so much judging and hating going on that my true opinion and feelings will be lost because of what ppl think my intentions are.
I guess that is the price you pay when you post on an open forum. There have been times that I have been unfairly judged for things I have said or ppl that I associate with. That is fine. I am still me and I will still make sure that when I do post my opinion that I think about being respectful towards others as I have done since day one in P&R.
I think that the mods can only do so much to control the hate and accusations.
If ppl do not want to keep an open mind and appreciate our differences and our similarities then the forum will continue down the same path.

Thanks for giving us a place to discuss politics and religion. It has been lots of fun at times and I have gotten to know some great ppl on this website.
I appreciate that more than anything.

matt said:


I am sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree. I do believe it is tolerated for whatever reason and like I said before and in reports to mods, the same people keep doing the same thing and they are still here. I will not name nmaes but one Orger in non-Prince has made more than one racist thread and is still here. Perhaps mods just disagree with what racism is?

matt said:


I agree.

matt said:


I disagree again. Twelve people can say a user is baiting and a mod will disagree thus shutting the process down.


If you see a permanently banned .orger who's returned to the site under another account, please report this to the mods. (Remember that we're unable to review every single post, due to the high traffic on the forums, and so we depend a great deal upon user reports.) Alternate accounts of banned users are subject to being banned on sight, period.

The part just cracks me up. Sorry, Matt.

I have reported permanently banned Orgers and guess what? They are still here. Mods sticky threads about them and everything. But if it's a person that particular mod doesn't like, they are banned again with the quickness whether they are behaving or not.



I do believe that is the case sometimes and I am not aware of what warnings a user might get so I am gonna go along with what you said here.

* * *

I do not feel you are disminssive at all and I do appreciate you taking the time to even respond.

...either that or doing something more worthwhile with our time.

matt said:

Laid back? Somethings are willy nilly and somethings are vice-grip tight.


I would suggest a three mod "panel" before anyone is banned, for instance. Many times, mods' personal feelings about someone get in the way of them being impartial. Some of the mods are personal friends of mine but have no problem in warning me or giving me a kick in the head if I need it.

I suggest there actually be a grievance process. I should not have had to write this thread in order to be heard. Of course I know Ben is super busy but to tell Orgers ot contact him and never heard from him is not cool.

I suggest that mods actually respond to orgnotes about warnings to Orgers. I have been warned twice with the mod offering no explanation.

I suggest there be a uniform rule on avatars and profile pics. I had a avatar be denied (no nudity, by the way) and later would see avatars with tits and ass.

I suggest when things are reported as racism or whatever, that the Orgers say why they feel that way and if a mod disagrees why they feel it's not. In the times I have reported something, I have no idea of the outcome.

This is off the top of my head. I am sure other people have suggestions as well.

JDInteractive said:

I do plenty of worthwhile things with my time and coming here to the Org is the thing I do to escape that for a little while. I see zero wrong in asking to make things better here when I'm here. Sorry you think I'm a loser with no life.

noimageatall said:

I'm tired, too but I felt I had to say something.

Stymie said:

You have every right to do so

Bomb the P&R section

shanti0608 said:

Was it right before or right after you took the time to notice that there were white orgers as well as black orgers that had an answer to that question? And did you also notice that the orgers that answer that thread understood the correct context of that question better than you? [snipped - June7]

Given the circumstances that P&R is suppose to be the forum to discussion "politics" & "religion", that thread of my was the perfect opportunity to find out how my fellow orgers of all skin colors were able to overcome and/or resist the temptation of those kinds of sin known as "racism" & "hatred", both subjects that are a political & spiritual problem.

But sadly, there were some people [bait snipped - June7] that blew the whole purpose of that thread out of context and demanded for any mods to lock or remove it.

And to make matters far worse, one of the people that wanted that thread remove is also one of the same small group of orgers that has made it an everyday habits of using flame baits to potential ruining even the most positive and/or most educational thread because they don't agree with people that don't seen things the way they do.

#1: If anyone has a problem with one of my threads OR one of my posts, they need to be man or woman enough to tell me directly by reply to my post and/or tell me via orgnotes so I can be giving a fair opportunity to explain myself. It doesn't make any sense to keep telling mods only your side of the stories like it "final law" and not give the other person the fair opportunity to explain his/her side of the story right before any mods is rush to make any final decisions on anything.

#2: We're all "mature" adults here and we need to act like "mature" adults. Posting flame baits on threads that you don't like isn't acting like an adult at all. That is acting like a child that loves to cry & whine because nothing is going his/her way.

And that's all I need to say on the matter. However Ben and the mods decides to handle the situation is their business. I'm just happy for the long 4 years of membership that I have in prince.org & hope it doesn't end on a controversial note.
[Edited 5/30/08 2:39am]

Stymie said:

Well said Stymie.

matt said:

I have one: prince.org needs to have an universal rule on the definition of free speech.

TonyVanDam said:

For the record and I am sure the mods could attest. I did not report the thread. I replied on the thread with my opinion about it and moved on.
I just found it interesting because I know that that same thread title would have caused an outrage if it had "blacks" instead of "whites" in it.
That is all I was saying.
Double standards.

I am entitled to my opinion as well.
Don't go pointing fingers and making allegations about me.
Thanks!
Nice how you followed your own advice there.

[Edited 5/30/08 3:43am]

TonyVanDam said:

would you like to elucidate just why you felt it was necessary to try and bait the three of us here? i say bait only because you don't really back up just why you single us out here. i'd answer more of your post, but i have to go to my graduation. maybe later

Tony, shanti, and evenstar...

Can we please not get personal on this thread? Please?

Adisa said:

Your right. Clearly a waste of my time expressing my opinion. Sorry I replied back to HIM!
Won't happen again.
I guess that is what orgnotes and report buttons are for.
Good day!

shanti0608 said:

TonyVanDam said:

[bait snipped - June7] isn't worth it edit
[Edited 5/30/08 8:04am]