Markland said:

Funny I could stir up so much emotion with my posts... LOL!! I probably will DIE laughing if I don't stop now!
[Edited 11/20/07 3:15am]

Anxiety said:

Anx, I recall quite well an old site discussion thread I can't be bothered to look up now where you insisted that the org was NOT a place of free speech and was NOT a democracy.

I think you're right: Ben pays the bills for this place, so it is his. We are his guests, but since we are, he is the one dictating the rules for the party. There are the site rules we all acknowledged when signing in, and they say:

Do not post racist or 'hateful' material.
This means no racist/homophobic comments, period. Discussions of racism itself in the proper forum are OK. Making hateful comments, directed at a person or group, may get your account immediately suspended. We are extremely serious about this. prince.org is not a place for racial bigotry or hateful speech.

Now, this doesn't exactly match free speech standards, but it surely is o.k. for the reasons listed above. However, making hateful comments at a person IS a violation of site rules, let it be me making such comments about you, the other way around, or anyone making hateful comments at Prince. Unless site rules are changed, it is an issue of moderation to keep things civil and take actions if such comments are made. Why is it allowed to have "Prince, fuck u" in a signature? Is a signature such as "EmancipationLover, fuck u" or "Anx, fuck u" allowed (I can't imagine)? Where in the site rules is it written that it is o.k. to post hateful material about someone in case that certain someone threatens to sue this website?

To come back to the free speech issue: the whole legal affair currently going on is not a fight for OUR free speech, it is a fight for BEN's right to have a website open where people can discuss Prince, so, in the end, it is about HIS right to free speech. Then it is his decision to set rules for this site, and we have to respect them, if they allow free speech on the boards or not. If we don't like these rules, we can't have an account here.

Oh, and btw, the ignorance and arrogance displayed by those who obviously think you need to be US-American to understand what "free speech" means is unmatched by anything I've read on this site in the past couple of years. Even the worst Creationist thread in P&R doesn't come close. I'm honestly shocked not only by some, but indeed by most of the comments posted on this thread.

pplrain said:

That wasn't emotional that was simple a surgical exercise in taking apart the points you made

I note you have singularly failed to address any questions put to you in posts and when your specious arguments are dissected revert to a pat reply as above

I guess you had to say something though and better that than defending the indefensible

Markland said:

You are correct, I reserve my right to do so. TY

pplrain said:

EmancipationLover said:

well, you're exactly right. there is not the same guarantee of free speech for posting on the org (or any moderated web forum, really) as you'd have from, say, creating a 'zine or (to a lesser extent) starting your own blog (which would still be somewhat moderated if you blogged through myspace, blogspot, etc.).

but since ben is paying to maintain this site, he has the right to establish the standards by which we communicate. if we don't like his standards, we would go elsewhere. since most of us DO feel like ben allows us to interact freely, the org is popular. so in a roundabout way, if i wanted to be REALLY contrary with you, i could say that we actually DO have a form of free speech on here - because if we thought ben was too much of a censoring fascist, we'd go elsewhere and his site would be a waste of his time and money.

but i won't be that contrary with you (unless - OOPS - i just was ).

in fact, mark me up for the "unnecessarily hostile remarks against prince SUCK" group, because it's disrespectful, immature, and just all around bad juju. i'm all for a playful barb or a clever jab at the man, but yeah. some of the stuff i've seen over the past few weeks...EEYOW. and believe me, we HAVE deleted the nastiest stuff.

HOWEVER: i think it's interesting that there's never been a complaint from prince's camp about hostile posts on his fansites, yet a pic of a prince-themed license plate is "harmful matter". what's all THAT about?

Anxiety said:

I think you might find that the nastiest stuff being posted is contrived

If I wanted to get grounds to control a website or have it closed, I would build foundations of concrete legally

I would get people to post highly controversial remarks designed to provoke adverse reactions from users and keep stirring the pot until it boiled over

The more provocative the contrived posts become the more adverse the reactions

Eventually you end up with sufficient abusive and potentially libellous material to go to court with

pplrain said:

You speak five languages but you didn't bother to learn the first amendment when you moved to the US? Great choice.

EmancipationLover said:

This makes no sense whatsoever imo.
Ben just provides the technology, we post the stuff that Prince wants removed. Ben gets a bunch of legal papers because of that and suddenly it's his problem and not ours?

Anxiety said:

Anx, I have a question in regards to Hate Speech Vs Free Speech. Now my question may be offensive to some but please bear with me, I am a little... no I should say very confused about it. Please do not be offended.

Prince as we know is a openly straight man, he has in fact said he is NOT gay (homosexual). People on these board have called him all types of names here's a few: BITCH, CUNT, PUSSY, and some other names.
What if say I called him a FAGGOT, would that be considered Free speech?
[Edited 11/20/07 17:24pm]

pplrain said:

[Bait, name calling snip - luv4u]

pplrain said:

if you're asking me, i would say it's a matter of context. are you just calling him that out of anger or shock value, or are you calling him that to make some bigger point?

let's say you're just being juvenile and you wrote it because you thought it would be funny and piss people off. i'm not terribly well-versed in the legal definition of what is "hate speech", but i would assume that if prince were to take action against you, it would be your burden to prove that what you wrote was not intended to cause harm to him. that's my guess, anyway.

Anxiety said:

I can only imagine the word "faggot" would hurt Prince deeply just as much as any of the other hurtful words (bitch, cunt, pussy) people are currently labeling him in these forums. I just want to know Ben's conduct codes in relation to "free Speech" and what he would term offensive and not and how he determines the degree of offending it could do.

pplrain said:

you know, this is a community-run web site. the moderators are all volunteers, and the members of the org are strongly encouraged to report what they believe to be inappropriate postings. if you think anyone - even PRINCE - personally expects ben to sit around all day looking at every thread and making sure nobody calls prince a nasty name, then i want some of what you're drinking.

Anxiety said:

I just feel the codes of "Free Speech" are too lax, but that is just me

I am currently drinking coffee... yummy and NO, you shall have none! j/k!
[Edited 11/20/07 18:56pm]

pplrain said:

for someone who feels free speech is too lax, you sure like to say whatever comes to mind.

Anxiety said:

I have questions, I just feel sad for Prince. It surely is not good to be in the public eye and yes you cannot control what people say.

Anxiety said:

pplrain likes free speech, as long as its something he/she/it doesnt object to

Like any criticism of he who must not be named

Wow, now I can't even tell anyone that they're ignorant.

It starts already.

gemini13 said:

Do me a favor and please get a life ! You don't have to reply to every one of my posts!

Markland said:

I have critiqued his work on many posts and all my posts are not in praise of him. If you don't know me please refrain from the attacks.

pplrain said:

pplrain, i say this with the utmost sincerity, you are coming off like Cindy Sheehan. IMHO, this has nothing to do with defending Prince during this fiasco and everything to do with you enjoying the attention you are earning from defending him. Your justifications for Prince's actions are so unbelievable that you now have zero credibility in many people's eyes. Please don't take offense cause this is all just my perspective...but your arguments are just don't hold muster.

pplrain said:

[Keep it civil. You two need to stop - luv4u]

sosgemini said:

I am not a lawyer to defend Prince, please. I am just asking a question.

pplrain said:

Did I claim you are one? Nope...you claim to only be asking questions...but are you asking questions to actually learn other's perspectives cause it doesnt feel that way to me...It feels like you are trying to make a point...So how about you just make your point rather then bait folks with hypotheticals? I can respect someone for stating their feelings but that's not what you are doing.

m3taverse said:

That's not what I meant nor what I wrote.

WE have to fight for BEN's right to free speech. How much of that he wants to give to us while running this place is his decision. As we know that he is quite generous with it, we should feel motivated to do so.

sosgemini said:

As per your previous post you think that I have ADD and so I am asking questions ?? I am not seeking org "fame" rather than an answer to a question.
This thread is very well hidden in the recesses of the backroom forum of the org. So quit telling me what you think I am thinking...

My question still remains the same from my first post and I still do not have the answer. How offensive does a word or comment have to be made to be considered "hate" speech rather than "free" speech and thus banned in the org?
I am not going away until I get this answer, so please tell me. TY
[Edited 11/21/07 1:36am]

Ok it looks like the fams are emerging from M+M and spreading .....the end is nigh