Good idea. and keep locking all the other strays..

@Shorty!

I totally agree, things are a bit out of control.

It's a tough thing to discuss, I appreciate that. I know only too well from my own moderation disasters: when you put in mega-hours doing what you think is right to run the site, it is hard to accept it when someone criticises your actions or calls for improvements. It is too easy to shrug your shoulders and say "well, can't please everyone!", or to allow bruised pride and ego to get involved. Effectively, if someone is saying what you've spend many hours doing is shit, it is hard not to take that personally. It can be hard to recognise when your efforts are having the opposite effect you intended... when discussion on the site is really suffering as a result of over-zealous moderating.

And of course it is easy to criticise! It is much easier to sit here and pick holes at perceived problems and alleged injustices. However if we're sincere and level-headed about this, we can make some progress and improve things for the better. We need some ground-rules:

1. Moderators have to actually listen in this forum. All the other forums, you can dictatate as required, but in this forum, you're supposed to listen. As long as the posts here don't break Ben's site rules or T&Cs, they are valid criticism and up for debate. Moderating discussion on moderation is ONLY to be undertaken when necessary. Locking threads in the Site Discussion forum should be a last resort, not a convenient means of controlling discourse.

2. Everyone on both sides of the debate need to stop being so prickly and taking offence to every little thing. Look, when you're being critical and feeling frustrated, some sharp words can be exchanged on both sides but it is never personal. Grow a flame-proof hide and focus on what we all want: for the site to work better.

One thing I will say is this: since I posted yesterday regarding the ludicrous locking of threads and creation of a million mod-penned stickies yesterday in the Prince forum, I have received a VERY substantial number of Orgnotes and emails in support and agreement of views. We're talking about a pretty large percentage of the Orgs daily visitors. The question is - why are these people hesitant to post their views publicly, and instead using private communication? To my mind, that represents a lack of confidence in the Site Discussion forum, and in the whole process. Users don't feel that their views will be permitted here uncensored, users feel that mods will allow ego to play a factor resulting in locked threads / banned users / angry orgnote exchanges / hard feelings. Users feel that moderators treat criticism in this forum as something to be dealt with and dismissed, rather than really discussed. There's a lack of confidence that any improvement is possible, or that there is room for discussion without mods asserting control over every facet of the debate.

This is all conjecture on my part - I'm just trying to think of reasons why so many people seem to feel so strongly about these issues, yet feel disinclined to post them. Regardless of this though, I will re-state my views on the management of threads and sticky threads.
- I think for certain things, sticky threads are useful and practical.
- If a thread is to become sticky though, it is more considerate and beneficial to discussion to make a user-created thread sticky, rather than locking it and having a moderator create a new thread of their own which is sticky.
- On hot subjects such as a new album or tour, the forum needs to meet the needs of the users. There will be a wide variety of discussion from many different angles, so to simply lock everything down and restrict all discourse to a single , huge, monolithic thread is clearly NOT working.
- Further ambiguity and confusion is now present with the song-specific sticky threads. Can I still post about a song in the album-related sticky? Can I discuss and compare two songs in one song-related sticky? It's all too bewildering and rigid. Let the users decide how they want to discuss things.
- No one is arguing in favour of a million duplicate threads all saying "I just bought Planet Earth!". But in general, hands-off moderation is better. Let the "market" decide what threads are worth responding to. If a thread is interesting, it will grow.
- Moderating threads, locking them, removing posts, etc should only be undertaken when absolutely necessary (when there is content which breaks the site rules). To arbitrarily bend and reshape the forum constantly to meet whatever peculiar mental model is in the head of a particular moderator is to be avoided.
- Locking threads that contain valid, rule-abiding discussion is to be completely avoided. This whole idea of forcing users to restrict discussion to a single huge long thread, and then to proceed to arbitrarily lock that and create a new one when it "gets too long" is ludicrous, and it has the effect of cutting off strands of discussion. It is rude and inconsiderate towards the contributors of the thread. This whole "part 1" and "part 2" threads is evidence that the current approach is broken.

Yesterday when I visited the front page of the Prince forum, I saw:

1. Half the bloody page was taken up by multi-coloured bold text full of patronizing warnings about user conduct. Is it really necessary? Does anyone read it?

2. Every visible thread on that front page had either been created by June7 or locked by June7. Every thread I had been reading had been locked, and many of them were sufficiently varied in scope to justify their existence outside of the giant sticky "Planet Earth" thread. This is not a forum I'd feel comfortable posting on - when you come back later, who knows where your post will be, or which threads will be locked, or re-created as stickies, or locked to make way for "part 2" etc?.

Clearly something isn't working. The current approach is not conducive to discussion. Prince.org does have a lot of fluff, but if we should get one forum right, we should get the Prince one right. It isn't june7.org (no offence) but prince.org. Unless stuff breaks the rules or we have a hell of a lot of thread duplication, I say "hands off the thread".
[Edited 7/16/07 12:58pm]

good god Ian! I think I love you!
how come you are not STILL a moderator?

I really do appreciate all the hard work the moderators voluntarily put in....and I understand that stickies can make things easier for them BUT what would also make things easier for them would be to step back a few steps.
as Ian put it,a more "hands off" approach to moderation.
so it may be a lil disorganized sometimes or things may go off topic but sooo what? it's ok...it's the natural flow of discussion...it's a good thing.
think libertarian.

I like it

RUHip2TheJive said:

You took the words right out of my mouth, if I don't wanna hear it or ruin the element of surprise I just go down to the threads I like and not have to wade thru the others, It's genius

I vote YAY! Makes it easier to go straight to the song I want to talk/read about.

After reading some of these posts, I’m not really sure I know what I’m voting on (big shock!)?

Of course the current methodology is easier and more organized. Yay! Yay! Three times over mother bleeping “Yay!”

But I thought this site was mainly for discussion, not for ease of operation and organization.

There are probably already at least a 100 completely different topics on this new album alone.

You won’t be able to talk to other people all on the same thread with all of these different topics; especially when your words just float off into space when a thread becomes to long or unruly.

But some rarely desire discussion (perfectly fine), so why would they care if long opinion/articles are removed?

Which is why the sticky song threads can be of great use for those who just want to chime in with a sentence or two about how they’re currently feeling. Stickies are brilliant for that!

And that’s why I think both methodologies can work.

If your topic deserves a thread, it deserves a thread. Moderators have been making those calls since day one.

But if you’re just posting one or two sentences about how “Lion of Judah” makes you feel, why on earth would you need a your own thread (outside of being completely obnoxious)? That’s what stickies are great for!

Ian makes some excellent points that should be read.

And a lot of people aren’t participating anymore. I’ve seen days where there are 5,000 people on the site, but only 125 actually identify themselves. Doesn’t seem like a good ratio. Why are people so shy about speaking publicly?

The Jerry Springer crowd is never embarrassed. And if you let them, they will gladly take over.

And I’ve got to say, the current moderators beat the hell out of me; that much should be obvious. But none of us know all the answers; especially not me.

But that’s precisely why we discuss. Collectively we’re pretty damn good. Individually? Only on brief occasions.

On the topic at hand, I don't care but y'all knew that already.

But isn't it GREAT to have Ian speaking for all of us?

I don't like it at all ,but I do understand why you have to do it .

I do have a side question to everything and it is directed to the original ORG folks?

What happened to the ORG? It used to be a place when we had excellent discussions about the world of Prince. Then around the "change" to what the format is now more "assholes" showed up.

Was the ORG invaded by AMP or did these folk just show up ?

i LOVE being able to discuss individual songs
GREAT idea
keep up the good work, y'all

I've got no problems with it.

I think it's a great idea and should remain a sticky for at least a week after an album is released. That way we can pick and choose which songs we want to talk about, it avoids multiple threads about the album and individual posts don't get lost as much as they do in the album thread.

I say keep it.

The track stickies are a great idea. Keep up the great work moderators!

The track stickies was a good idea. I just hope it's not too much work for you!

yeah, as long as they vanish after this album has been fully discussed.. then move on..

The forum is like a democracy... the most popular rise to the top, and the less relevant (for the time) just float away.... When you try to conform us all, it becomes like communism, good for the whole, but lacking in individuality - becomes boring, and futile activity. The whole excitement of prince.org and the new record is waning for me, because I dont want to post into those silos.

Before the stickies, I could go into Prince.org, and could instantly see, the subject, what is current discussion and what has been discussed the most. That was enough for me. I didn't need those stickies in the way, forcing us to post in those silo's of obscurity which i will never search through because it contains a multitude of unrelated subjects and opinions.

i used to love Prince.org, now I cannot use it..

Teacher said:

Well that was worth posting

Shorty said:

I was wondering this as well

Mach said:

Ask him why he won't answer.

Teacher said:

take it to a new thread.

sosgemini said:

Hey, I KNOW why he's not a mod anymore... don't need to ask.

I like it !! it's organized

utopia7 said:

Allow me to co-sign this mutha!

This may be a valid attempt to keep things organized but is a daft idea, ultimatley. What if Prince puts out a 19 track album? Are you going to put up 19 sticky threads? Make it one thread to discuss the album, anything else is just overkill and reeks of pathetic fandom which this site tends to steer clear of.

mplsmike said:

MartyMcFly said:

Me 2. But still people keep making the same thread over and over again

It's fucking stupid.

Say you want to seriously discuss the horn arrangments within a song on Planet Earth. Why lump it together with another thread which may also discuss:

The 99 other songs that the track purportedly sounds like;
Whether or not Wendy & Lisa are pregnant/lesbians/friends with Prince this week;
The hidden pseudo-religious message conveyed in the lyrics if you recite them backwards in a mirror;
"Is the poster above me Zelaira?".

You may as well have a 'Kiss' sticky or a 'Delirious' sticky or a 'Jughead' sticky.

It's fucking stupid.

Wall said:

I'd hate for this to have been the release of "Crystal Ball" or "Emacipation" 3 pages worth of stickies

It looks like people are still posting their threads anywhere they want to anyway, but nice try