I'm against taking action against such a user as much as I am against banning users altogether (especially because they only come back with new names, history has shown).

When someone shows consistently that they're not engaging in good-faith discussions but are instead taking obvious steps to troll and bait, folks who really view this as a marketplace of ideas should call them out.

Let the marketplace handle it. Yes, I know how that sounded...

Why is there an excessive need to ban people and would there be discussion with the person, directly, before banning them?

Janfriend said:

This is simply not the case...if it were, half the peeps here would be banned. Really... half.

Truth is, we discuss til our mouths bleed...

June7 said:

Well, my POV is different, based on experience. I'm not a mod, so

I think the moderation of this site is getting out of control.
I wish it would take a more libertarian approach and let the users sort out and figure out what's true/false/rumour or otherwise. UGH!
I personally feel the ONLY moderation this site should concern itself with is EXTREME cases of hate against any one individual or group and anything blatantly illegal. Everything else should be of no concern.
but that's just me.

Janfriend said:

your personal experience? we've already had *that* discussion haven't we?

sosgemini said:

Well, MY personal experience tells me that sometimes people have a hard time getting the chip off their shoulder... I used to be one.

Shorty said:

i agree to a certain extent...the deletion of threads that aren't extremely offensive should stop, i think. why not just lock them?

evenstar3 said:

or better yet...why not just leave them alone?

Shorty said:

i can understand the need to lock a thread that's gotten out of control & turned into mostly flaming or whatever, but deleting it just causes more drama, IMO.

evenstar3 said:

right...I can understand if it's gotten to that point to but you had said "the deletion of threads that aren't extremely offensive"
to me threads that are not extremely offensive should be left alone.

There's only so much time the site should spend dealing with a particular problem.
Come ON!!
This is a volunteer organization folks.
Having site rules, and enforcing them, makes this a civilized place.
There are orgers I like who have been banned.
Rule of thumb, don't antagonize the mods. Learn from the initial situation and move on if you want to stay here.

Back to topic:I recently presented data in a forum where another orger was unbelievably off on a statistic. Myself and another orger, who obviously likes history, discussed the data and sources. I stated clearly I didn't want anyone to have a misconception of the actual facts.
The other inaccurate orger never refuted us, nor persisted with the misinformation.
I once had Keats and Proust mixed up on a forum with "age at death". I was quickly corrected and logged on and said You're Right! my mistake. I was glad I was corrected.

sosgemini said:

If you call that a discussion. I am responding to this thread based on what I know and have experienced, just like everyone else. I don't see a problem with that. I didn't say specifics, but then again I shouldn't be made to be afraid to

Janfriend said:

no, you shouldnt...but when you talk about experience the only thing i have to go off of us the one time i moderated your actions...so i basing my question on that...

and that's why i asked you for clarification...i'd be more then happy to discuss your experience and how you feel it relates to the current situation because from my perspective, how things went down, are totally different then how i feel you are portraying them...

but if im misreading or misunderstanding your initial statement feel free to correct me...thats why my original statement was a question and not a statement.
[Edited 5/2/07 22:32pm]

sosgemini said:

"Portraying?" Perception is reality and you and I will forever view that incident differently and therefore, our reality of it will always be different. Obviously you thought you were right and, obviously, I perfusely disagree. However, I have had to post on eggshells ever since due to attitudes of other mods. I'm not just talking about that though

One moderator thought they could read my mind and gave me a "warning" that made me feel I would be banned for nonsense. I wasn't disrespecting anyone and wasn't breaking rules. So, when there is a discussion about banning for this or that reason, I see nothing wrong with mentioning unfair banning and manipulation by other mods. My perception is that banning is the fave around here

xplnyrslf said:

exactly! they should spend LESS time on moderation in general.
"Having site rules, and enforcing them, makes this a civilized place." You're kidding right? that's like saying the only reason we live in a civilized world is because of the laws in place.

Janfriend said:

alright...well, lets try to figure out your situation right now. any other mods care to address janfriends concerns? some of the gd mods? come on folks...we can't come off as monolithic. who are the gd mods? luv4u? tom? june7?

Shorty said:

lets not get catty. the fact of the matter is that this site is not a free for all...there are rules that needed to be followed and creating a "welcome back thread" for an orger who is banned is usually used to bait the mods and further ruffle feathers.

would it be easier if we created a rule stating, "no welcome back threads for previously banned and returned users"? would that settle this issue?

and please...im being as sincere with my participation in this thread so lets try to refrain from emoticans that can be perceived as mocking each others views. k?

sosgemini said:

I'm not getting catty I speak open and honestly,so perhaps you were speaking on your own behalf.
I didn't say it should be a free for all...there ARE rules...too many in my opinion. See, I think it's moderators taking their role a lil too seriously that leads to abuse of power. I don't agree with the statement that "creating a "welcome back thread" for an orger who is banned is usually used to bait the mods and further ruffle feathers." No, I believe that it usually means "welcome back" and sometimes is used to ruffle feathers...and even if it's used to ruffle feathers....SO WHAT? Don't let it ruffle your feathers...ignore it. I feel that as long as they are not racially discriminating against your or making threats then they should be able to try to ruffle you if they want. I feel most of those threads would die a quick death but every time one of those threads gets deleted or someone is banned because of it only keeps the issue alive and makes it worse.

NO! I don't think it would be "easier" to make ANOTHER RULE and NO I do not think it would solve the problem at all. I don't think it should even be considered a problem...it should be a non issue.
I am being sincere too but PLEASE...how bout we try to refrain from being offended by silly emoticons? let's try to keep things in perspective. Why not get rid of all the emoticons if we're so worried about how they might be perceived? <- this should be perceived as this is all unbelievable to me

sosgemini said:

Are you asking me??? I honestly think if I called out names, this thread would be mysteriously deleted. To be honest, I don't post nearly as much as I used to because of a few of you mods

Shorty said:

i think your missing my point...when communicating with someone, the tone you take is huge...and if your being condescending or smarmy or catty or angry folks will get turned off and stop listening to you...its human behavior. so what's your goal here? to try to improve the org community? or scream against a wall?

xplnyrslf shared her perspective and instead of agreeing to disagree with her...you shot her down. and thats why i threw that statement out...i am all for civil and polite discussion of site rules but i'll be damned if im going to make an effort to talk to you if your not willing to be civil back...(i say that generally btw)...keep in mind that mods are not paid and some of us end up taking time from our actual paying jobs to communicate with you...and i'd much rather cut all the bullsh*t out and get to the meat of the issue.

now back to your specific concerns: re ruffling feathers...this is the deal with that. you antagonize a mod then others will...then folks will start questioning ever single action that that mod takes and then we mods end up having to spend eight hours of our day dealing with the blown out.

and let me flip this one statement around:

you said:

could it also be that some orgers take their role as antagonizers a lil too serious and that *that* leads them to being banned again?
[Edited 5/3/07 11:26am]

Janfriend said:

address the rule and not the specific mod and the thread wont get hidden. go for it.

sosgemini said:[quote]

Shorty said:

No...I'm not missing your point. If this were a real face to face converstation I would have said (asked) with a chuckle the same thing I posted here..but because you would have been able to hear my voice and see my facial expression I believe you would NOT think I was being condescending, smarmy, catty or angry...just being real with my emotions and questions. I'm not screaming at anyone so I guess I'm trying to improve the org community by standing up to the authorities who I feel sometime get a little carried away.


no..I didn't shoot her down...I asked her a question. civil and polite conversation....I think if you want to have a real conversation...it should be civil but doesn't have to be polite. I am being EXTREMELY civil...so be damned if you want to but that's got nothing to do with me.
exactly...the mods are NOT paid and should NOT take up time from their actual paying jobs to communicate with us...IF they do...they should not hold it against us, we did not force them to be moderators or to take it to a level in which it takes up too much of their time. What I'm saying is if some mods would just let a lot of petty stuff ride they wouldn't have to take up any extra time...they may actually decrease their mod time.



see...I disagree. I feel that If someone antagonizes a mod and that mod get's "ruffled" and bans/deletes/locks users and or threads THAT is what (IMHO) entices others to ruffle more feathers and start questioning every single action that the mod takes. I'm saying that if you guys back off...you won't be spending 8 hours dealing with anything.


perhaps but if antagonizing resulted in nothing...I think they wouldn't bother.

Shorty said:

I removed the "Welcome Back SureThing" thread... I let the author of the thread know, and when SureThing created another thread asking why the other thread was removed, I explained it to SureThing.

A thread welcoming back an orger who has been banned "again" as it was put, was created to put her consistantly bad behavior in the spotlight. Soon, all the "rule bashing" and "mod bashing" ensued. This is not healthy. It's not healthy for the site, the mods or the other orgers who choose to follow the rules. I removed the thread because I found it to be uncalled for and malicious. You may disagree - but, that is life. The two who brought it to my attention were given a reason.

Also in the new thread created, another mod was called out for removing the thread... I explained to SureThing that it was I who removed the thread and why. Was it fair to call out another mod for an action in a thread she had no ivolvement in? Was it fair for other orgers to chime in on that mod?

Another thing - No mod I know is quick to ban without good cause. Some offenses require a more severe action than others. Warnings are given, strikes issued, continuous bad actions can result in a temp ban. One or two days, or one or two weeks. In some rare cases - a permanent ban has occured. If Ben didn't feel these actions were necessary, then he would not have made them available for us to use.

Fact is, we are Moderators. We are moderating a site that sometimes has people on here for the sole purpose of disrupting an otherwise exceptional community. People need to be aware that if you "act up" to the point that negative attention is brought to you or put on others, then you need to be aware that action is going to be taken against you. Period.

I'm glad we can discuss issues like this, but let's not forget what this really is. It's a site that has rules and moderators who enforce the rules. Those who cannot handle that situation or any situation with authority figures will bring that behavior to this site. We will continue to do our jobs, and I know in doing so, will continue to piss people off.

Hopefully, we can just enjoy the site for what it is. A wonderful community of people who have a love for Prince in common - who also happen to have opinions on all kinds of matters from other artists to politics to love, divorce and other personal issues.

This is what I love about the site... these other issues... not so much.

Shorty said:

No, I wasn't kidding.
And yes, I believe that to be true.
Behavior is learned from parents, schools, church, society in general. It's not innate.
Without enforcing documented requirements and expectations, rules may as well not exist.

What I see is a disappointment with circumstances. It doesn't have anything to do with the site and is misplaced. I'm sorry, but I would have known better.
If there is a problem with site rules and enforcement, contact Ben.
Badgering moderators publicly is out of the question.
I've gotten my hand slapped multiple times. I don't take it to the rest of the community. And, when I was wrong I accepted it.
There are circumstances where I didn't agree with a mod on actions regarding others. This isn't it.

sosgemini said:

It's more about unwritten rules that mods make up like deleting goodbye threads not being able to badmouth or speak of disappointment about the org , without specifics

Janfriend said:

Uh... in case you haven't noticed, there's a thread about that every other day in this very forum...

Plus, if that's a main objective - then, why come here at all? If this site requires constant badmouthing or is such a disappointment - why do the same complainers (or so it seems) continuously come here?

People - no one has handcuffed you to this site... if it's that much of a drag, there's a whole world wide web out there for you to peruse.

June7 said:

No one said anything about it being the main objective and what you're talking about in this forum, I never see. I not in here everyday, but when I come here I don't see what you're talking about. Of course, I'm trying to not be specific


As for why do people come here? There are many forums and some people are attached to certain ones. That's why they come here. They like interacting with certain people. It doesn't mean they have to love everything about this place. That's one of the problems here, the "love it or leave it" attitude of the mods. We don't have to like everything you do in order to be here. That's borderline Totalitarian