AzureStar said:

Whew...had me worried there.

I haven't talked to Ben about it, but I imagine that the GD will come back after the Celebration. Maybe with some new guidelines, etc.

So...I take that as a big, fat no. No way to open up the GD to those of us who can't be there with all of you? Well...it was worth a shot. It'll be cool if it opens up afterwards. It's just really slow around here without it.

AzureStar said:

No, I'm not gonna un-do anything that Ben has done.

Personally, I think there should be a general discussion forum...and another "Way Off Topic" forum...

Neither forums posts would appear on the main page.

There would be a warning about the "Way off Topic" forum that would state that it is less moderated, and should be treated as such. Enter at your own risk kinda thing.

People had to know that this kind of stuff was coming. Come on, we were getting so many complaints all the time, and then when we try to settle things down, we get insulted, argued with etc.

What did they think was going to happen?

For something pronounced as "dead", there's an awful lot of activity here.

The org lives!

kevin said:

You have a great idea! That would be great... I would frequent the "way off-topic" forum.

I have a question for Matt.

Why wasn't Oceana's account deleted? she was sending a lot of abusive orgnotes to people, you must have had complaints, yet her account was not deleted, how come? She sent orgnotes to practically everyone who uttered her name.
These orgnotes upset alot of people yet her account remained ?
I wonder how come shes so quiet now?

kevin said:

WHAT IS THIS HOME PAGE YOU SPEAK OF

kevin said:

Well, part of the problem is who is doing the complaining?

Some people feel they know what is "good for the Org" and use the report message function as part of their personal politics.

What is missing in this regard is the kind of transparency that would avoid that behind the scenes bullshit. Maybe complaints should be made public like our posting history, so we can see if certain people just like to complain about everything or if it's motivated by something other than good will or common good.

Or just abandon the feature altogther and run it as you see fit. Why should that have effected how you run your own site?

It seems weird that it was not the boards themselves but the back room dealings that were the most work, if I am hearing you right.

kevin said:

I like this idea...unfortunately, there will still be those who will complain about what's being discussed in those forums anyway. They can't resist the urge!

Zthe9s said:

You'll have to ask Ben that one... until very recently (i.e., the aftermath of the Shausler controversy), I'd didn't have the ability to delete/restrict accounts. Actually, I don't even remember hearing about any problems with her.

2the9s said:[quote]

kevin said:

No, not really. The problem is that we have to address every one of those concerns...regardless.



I don't care about anyone's "personal politics". People may alert us to something that they don't agree with, and ultimately WE (as in Matt, Ben and I) make the decision.




Hmm..Seems like Matt already tried that, and people slammed him for it.



Not true.
When we are forced to read through crap that we really don't care about anyway, it gets very tiring...

kevin said:

And by "address" you mean take into consideration, to the best of your ability, who is doing the complaining the nature of the complaint etc, no? Or does it mean that every complaint gets automatically addressed the way the complainer wants it?




That's a snitch system. If you don't care about "personal politics," amd let me rephrase that to be less provocative as "human interaction," then that tells me the decision made, no matter what it is, is an ill-informed one because you are not aware of the actors involved. Nothing to be proud of. Why didn't you address my point about posting people's complaint record?




No, he got slammed because he made a bad decision. Let's be frank. Shausler goes but other shit stays. If this was some kind of symbolic gesture, as has been alluded to, a new attempt to crack down etc., it was a poor way to do it. And "deal with it" is as childish a response as I have seen. If you aren't able to tell, the dominant feeling here seems to be confusion, not regret.



That's nice to hear. And we are the ones overreacting.

2the9s said:

Yes, you are. It's just a website, and THIER'S at that. Forget about it.

Blabitty Blabitty Blah!
Gooble di Gooble di Goo!

U're all whining and bitching about NOTHING!

It's a fucking message board!

There's other ones still up and running 4 ur viewing and posting pleasure!

Quit bitching, get a life!


whiners

2the9s said:

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about this.
There are 4 ways that we have to deal with things.
1) monitoring the threads ourselves...very VERY tedious.
2) getting orgnote complaints.
3) getting personal e-mails.
4) getting complaints via the "Report" option.

Every one of those complaints has to be investigated, and have a decision made as to whether the complaint is valid or not.



Yes it is a combination of "Beat walking" and listening to informants. Yes, it wastes our time to have to read through threads that we care nothing about, and determining whether someone has crossed a line or not.

It takes time.





Maybe it was a mistake, but the fact remains that he made a decision on his own, and he was still slammed, and insulted by people for it.



What's nice to hear? What is overreacting?

That 80% of the discussion that goes on in the General Discussion area doesn't interest Ben, Matt or myself? Why is that so hard to understand?

You do realize that we created a "Prince" site right???

We just allowed general discussion for those that didn't want to talk Prince 24/7...which is fine...but I don't necessarily have the same "outside" interests as the other 7,000 people on this site - but I am still forced to read it because it is my "job".

IceNine said:

check out the hip forums icenine. they have a "random thoughts" forum along with other nice goodies. i like it over there too. it's like the general forum x100

the hip forums free speech site

kevin said:

What makes you think I don't understand it?




But it's important to recognize that it was not the policy that was slammed but the particular decision. The insulting was unfortunate, but frankly it was an insulting manner in which he chose to close the thread.



It's not. That number is probably the same for everyone who visits here. The issue was with people who slammed or abused others, right? Calling the eighty percent that you don't read "crap" when you are the moderator doesn't sound very moderate. It sounds like you are overreacting to the consequences of a forum that you designed by taking it out on the posters.



I also realize that Prince created one, but I sure as hell don't go there. I wouldn't even be allowed to have this conversation there.



I pity you.

2the9s said:[quote]

kevin said:

The alternating questions:

"And by "address" you mean take into consideration, to the best of your ability, who is doing the complaining the nature of the complaint etc, no? Or does it mean that every complaint gets automatically addressed the way the complainer wants it? "




I understand that people didn't like the decision. People may not always agree with the decision...but making us spend hours explaining ourselves, and being insulted in the process isn't going to help anything.

In retrospect, Matt probably should not have stopped discussion on that thread...but come on, it wasn't the end of the world either.



Hmmm..Ok, I doubt that 80% is crap. But I can guarantee you that there is legitimate CRAP in some of these discussions. People were trying to post the most annoying, insulting, and disgusting things they could get away with...and that is crap.



I understand that as well, but you must understand what the main thrust of this place is about. Ben has a hard time making new features, and enhancing this place when he has to police the users.



No need to pity. I am just explaining why it can become very tedious for us...and why sometimes things that don't seem that big of a deal to some people end up "getting under our skin".

kevin said:

Okay, I'm willing to settle on 78% crap and 26% of that 78% is by me!

I'm sorry Kevin, I just miss the GD. I'm a fucking baby. Sue me.
[This message was edited Thu Jun 20 14:13:49 PDT 2002 by 2the9s]

2the9s said:

Zthe9s said:

What!!??

2the9s said:

Awww...9s, its only temporary...it'll be back in one form or another (I hope).

wild. imo this place still rocks.
we're an actual community.

2the9s said:

You may think it was a bad decision. That's your opinion, and there's probably not much I can do about it. But I stand by my decision, and many org'ers expressed their support of it, both on the forums and through orgNotes to me.

It wasn't a matter of locking Shausler's thread while letting worse stuff stay. It was about increasing the level of moderation, and Shausler's thread had the misfortune of being one of the first I read. I have nothing against Shausler personally.



It wasn't.



Can you suggest a better response for folks who just can't be satisfied?

Re: "Deal with it"

How about, " I know you may be feeling like this is a bad deal but lets work together to make this a kick arse forum from here on forward."

There are easy ways of diverting attention Matt. The other day you assummed that I being ultra-sensative...Now, let me make an assumption about you: You dont like to be told what to do. You hate to admit your wrong. You have minor social issues and a difficulty explaining how you feel...in a nutshell, a tech guy!!

Why do I think all this? Its all in your writing style..And its not a bad thing at all. Funny thing is, a lot of large corporations give training now on socializing with IS/IT Departments. So much payroll was being wasted on inter-office squabbles that some H/R nut found a way to make profit off of the issue by training how to deal with them.

I digress, the whole reason I bring this up is because you, as a moderator, really need to work on how you address people. I know, i know...people here can get really hectic, but that only places a bigger importance on how you address these people when you are taking actions like the other day...ive made comment about this before and you refused to realize that your words could be percieved as harsh...i understand that, we all hate to admit we that we fault..but trust me on this...K? Cause, if the moderation gets stepped up, and the same type attitude is displayed, this place might start to see a fewer and fewer visits...already (minus the GD) I am starting to be bored during the work day...I need to do something while at work...and I would hate to have to search for another playground.

-nmh

btw: IMHO

SkletonKee said:

Tech guy? No. Well, I took "Introduction to Computing" in college because I wanted an easy "A", but aside from that...



I think that, for the most part, I conduct myself in a reasonable manner, both online and offline. Did I get a bit harsh at times over the past few days? You betcha. But I've been affiliated with the prince.org (and before that, PPML) staff for about five years, and you seem to be judging me based on the past few days, a time when this site blew up like it never has before. And aside from the stuff that everyone saw, we had some behind-the-scenes tasks to keep things running as best we could that took a fair amount of time.

And, yes, you're absolutely right that I don't like being told what to do.

I'm sure you mean well, but honestly, I don't think we're going to see eye-to-eye.

Anyway, I'm tired and I'm cranky, and I have to drive to Minneapolis tomorrow, so I'm signing off. Feel free to reply, and I'll get back to you, if need be, on Tuesday.

matt said:

I realize you're talking to skeletonkee here Matt, but I just wanted to respond: yes, I agree that you conduct yourself in a reasonable manner -- for more than the most part: I've chatted with you; I've seen how you moderated on the old board, and now here. I've always been impressed. I don't mean that to sound patronizing. I wish all you guys would particpate on the boards more. (Yeah, yeah I know, you have lives :::: ). Now that would set a tone!

But yes I was judging you on the past few days when I said that it was a bad decision. That's why I didn't mean it personally. It seemed somehow uncharacteristic. Like I said, I think it confused people more than anything.

As for a better response for folks who can't be satisfied, I've found that telling them to do what you want or you will urinate in their sauna works remarkably well!

Have a safe drive, you lucky bastard!




[This message was edited Thu Jun 20 21:18:22 PDT 2002 by 2the9s]

matt said:

interesting bit *o* info i learned through an h/r training course: for every negative it takes twenty positives to balance out the effect...so, its pretty easy to ignore all the good things that one does, when the most recent issue is negative...so, to be honest, I never really noticed your moderation prior to this situation...which probably speaks volumes to how affective you have been in the past...

at anyrate, your over at Paisley having a hoot right now and this issue is dying a nice healthy death...hopefully this discussion will do good for all parties involved...the waxing of logic is a wonderful thing...

out!!

2the9s said:

uhhh...uhhh...yeah, humor...works great...

2 words stated a LONG ass time ago: THREAD LIMITS

I say 1 a day for these tricks, maybe 1 every 2 or 3 days...

I've been away, don't know what the hell happened in here but I'm glad I missed the drama...