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I wonder why this happened, it's strange [Edited 10/31/04 3:51am] | |
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. [Edited 10/23/04 12:14pm] | |
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Pej has been deleted!? Certainly not right compared to other individuals around here. 2010: Healing the Wounds of the Past.... http://prince.org/msg/8/325740 | |
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. [Edited 10/23/04 12:14pm] | |
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I don't see the problem with what EWM wrote. No Candy 4 Me | |
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. [Edited 10/23/04 12:14pm] | |
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mrbungle said: BanishedBrian said: I don't see the problem with what EWM wrote.
He baits people a lot with forms of racism that you might not see due too your ethicnal background but this is just an assumption. I usually just ignore him and his ignorant views and the way he handles them but I can see how it really gets under a lot of peoples skin. Personally he doens't have the mental capaticy nor has he even come close to some of the racism I've delt with in my life. I think his ways of badderging people are so childish and it only reflects upon his personality. He has a lot of issues in life and it's sad to see how he's handling them. He must not be happy with the person he is and it shows. I feel sorry for him but that doesn't change the fact that Pej and Pejman accounts shouldn't have been deactivated unless EVM's account was as well. I briefly looked at the threads that you mentioned (and I may have missed the particular places you're talking about) but I don't understand how his posts are racists. They are just extremely jack booted conservative. EWM isn't the only person I've come in contact with who thinks we should just bomb Syria and Iran. If anything, most of the time EWM seems to get hostile are in response to posts that are the typical anti-US/anti-Bush hate that passes for political discourse on this board. I support Kerry, but when I'm on this board, I actually feel sympathy for Bush (and other than when I'm posting here, that is never the case). EWM is just responding in kind to the put downs made in this forum of his political point of view. No Candy 4 Me | |
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the "pej" and "pejman" accounts have NOT been deactivated. both accounts were temporarily banned. big difference between a two-day slap on the wrist and the deletion of someone's account. | |
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. [Edited 10/23/04 12:15pm] | |
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mrbungle said: Anxiety said: the "pej" and "pejman" accounts have NOT been deactivated. both accounts were temporarily banned. big difference between a two-day slap on the wrist and the deletion of someone's account.
so the accounts were deactivated for a few days, correct? as for the slap on the wrist doesn't that same slap need to be given to someone else? for doing what? No Candy 4 Me | |
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. [Edited 10/23/04 12:15pm] | |
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BanishedBrian said: mrbungle said: He baits people a lot with forms of racism that you might not see due too your ethicnal background but this is just an assumption. I usually just ignore him and his ignorant views and the way he handles them but I can see how it really gets under a lot of peoples skin. Personally he doens't have the mental capaticy nor has he even come close to some of the racism I've delt with in my life. I think his ways of badderging people are so childish and it only reflects upon his personality. He has a lot of issues in life and it's sad to see how he's handling them. He must not be happy with the person he is and it shows. I feel sorry for him but that doesn't change the fact that Pej and Pejman accounts shouldn't have been deactivated unless EVM's account was as well. I briefly looked at the threads that you mentioned (and I may have missed the particular places you're talking about) but I don't understand how his posts are racists. They are just extremely jack booted conservative. EWM isn't the only person I've come in contact with who thinks we should just bomb Syria and Iran. If anything, most of the time EWM seems to get hostile are in response to posts that are the typical anti-US/anti-Bush hate that passes for political discourse on this board. I support Kerry, but when I'm on this board, I actually feel sympathy for Bush (and other than when I'm posting here, that is never the case). EWM is just responding in kind to the put downs made in this forum of his political point of view. In this day and age if someone was to say nukes should be dropped on New York where Evil White Male resides it wouldn't be percieved as a form of terrorism? If a middleeastern were to say such a thing towards America I would think Homeland Security would be on that individual like flies on shit. Just my  | |
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probably on my quick glance into those threads the essential lines escaped me, so I have a question to the mods (of course no one is answerable to me or any other orger, it's just that I would like to get the complete picture): what exactly was/were the decisive post(s) or msg(s), that lead to PEJ's banning? [Edited 9/20/04 11:58am] Vanglorious... this is protected by the red, the black, and the green. With a key... sissy! | |
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There will never be a real discussion of the hypocrisy and racism on the Org. | |
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Before threads like this even get started, the culmination of posts that have offended you from EWM should have been reported to the mods, where they could have been looked over and dealt with. In reality, we're not exactly getting flooded with complaints about EWM making racist remarks. Likewise, after looking over the posts you pointed out, I really don't see anything malicious or overtly racist. Most of them are just short remarks defending his right to an opinion.
This thread is actually in the wrong forum, as it is about Prince.org practices and policies than it is about Religion and Politics as a whole. | |
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. [Edited 10/23/04 12:15pm] | |
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Tom said: Before threads like this even get started, the culmination of posts that have offended you from EWM should have been reported to the mods, where they could have been looked over and dealt with. In reality, we're not exactly getting flooded with complaints about EWM making racist remarks. Likewise, after looking over the posts you pointed out, I really don't see anything malicious or overtly racist. Most of them are just short remarks defending his right to an opinion.
With all due respect, why should posts have to be reported to moderators? Don't you guys read all this stuff? There has been some pretty racial/homophobic stuff in this forum and others that clearly is offensive but it wasn't deleted or threads locked.This thread is actually in the wrong forum, as it is about Prince.org practices and policies than it is about Religion and Politics as a whole. | |
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mrbungle said: Tom said: Before threads like this even get started, the culmination of posts that have offended you from EWM should have been reported to the mods, where they could have been looked over and dealt with. In reality, we're not exactly getting flooded with complaints about EWM making racist remarks. Likewise, after looking over the posts you pointed out, I really don't see anything malicious or overtly racist. Most of them are just short remarks defending his right to an opinion.
This thread is actually in the wrong forum, as it is about Prince.org practices and policies than it is about Religion and Politics as a whole. This thread deals with race, religion and politics so I would have to disagree with you on where it belongs. As for EWM I don't think you know the true feeling or the true word of minority. Try having a shot gun pulled out and told your going to be taken out. Now take it further while you are talking to the police officer who just with your luck happend to come when he did that same guy tells your girlfriend that he's going to get your foriegn boyfriend. If you look at EVM's words they are racist and they breed racism. Those who defend him are either one of two: racists as well or ignorant. With words like "We should bomb them all" all of those people. If you happen to be of that race that means you're included which isn't close to the word civilized and it's racists which is breaking the rules set by this web site and no form of disclipine has taken place at all. What does that lead me to believe: a few different things can be true: EWM has friends who are just as racist as himself but they are better about not showing their true feelings. These same people must have some authority on this website and that's why he hasn't been suspended or banned. The people who govern this website are extremely ignorant to racism due to their lack of a foriegn born non white person who is in charge. I'm curious to hear Cborgman's true feelings about EWM and his racist or homophobic views Those who defend this man are ignorant or racists and that is a remark or an opinion that is my right to say. EWM isn't or hasn't gone forward with this type of opinion but rather one of a TRUE racists, antagonizer, and manlipulator of the truth besides be a crybaby.[/b] I want to believe you're ignorant to the issues in front of us Tom and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't change the problem. Simple: EWM is the reason why Pej's accounts have been suspended for 48 hours. He baits people into these remarks and then he cries about it and does this. He's smart like this but again it's still racism. [Edited 9/20/04 12:38pm] This thread is questioning how the site is moderated, with regards to EWM's remarks. If you are offended by a comment like "we should bomb them all" you have the option of complaining to a moderator via the Report function. I'm not insensitive to someone being hurt by a comment like that. I hate racist behavior, both in my day to day life, as well as seeing such comments on here. There may be remarks that you might pick up on as being racist, that some of us may overlook, perhaps because we come from different backgrounds. But that doesn't instantaneously qualify us as racist or in cahoots with EWM. I don't moderate P&R, in fact I seldomly visit it. Many of us were assigned to the forums that we read and participate in frequently. Let's be realistic here. I do not read every single post on this site daily, across every forum. It is entirely unfair to allude, speculate, or suggest that I or any one of us moderators are racist and intentionally showing favoratism to EWM based on the few circumstances you mentioned above. If you were regularly using the Report function as these comments panned out, we WOULD as a whole, be more aware of that problem. Starting a sensational thread which is bound to erupt into a flame fest among orgers and draw more people into your ongoing arguments with EWM, as opposed to notifying us directly, is what I am dissagreeing with. | |
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TheOrgerFormerlyKnownAs said: Tom said: Before threads like this even get started, the culmination of posts that have offended you from EWM should have been reported to the mods, where they could have been looked over and dealt with. In reality, we're not exactly getting flooded with complaints about EWM making racist remarks. Likewise, after looking over the posts you pointed out, I really don't see anything malicious or overtly racist. Most of them are just short remarks defending his right to an opinion.
With all due respect, why should posts have to be reported to moderators? Don't you guys read all this stuff? There has been some pretty racial/homophobic stuff in this forum and others that clearly is offensive but it wasn't deleted or threads locked.This thread is actually in the wrong forum, as it is about Prince.org practices and policies than it is about Religion and Politics as a whole. No, I don't read every post on every thread of this site daily. | |
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Expressing the desire to "nuke" an entire country and people on this board is certainly a form of hate speech combined with trolling, as banned under the rules of prince.org.
The speech may not be directed at a particular orger or orgers, but it is aimed at entire nations of people (Iranian and Syrian people) and implies the desire to commit genocide on these peoples just to "get rid of the problem" that's bugging him. Considering the extreme nature of the speech this is also a form of trolling, or knowingly and unnecessarily riling up other people on this board, who may or may not be Iranians or Syrians or have family there, but nevertheless will very probably feel offended by such speech, just to get that reaction. In other words: EWM's particular conduct constitutes two clear violations of the prince.org rules: Do not post racist or 'hateful' material. [...] Making hateful comments, directed at a person or group, may get your account immediately suspended. We are extremely serious about this. prince.org is not a place for racial bigotry or hateful speech. Don't post trolls/ads/spam/get-rich-quick schemes/other junk. Don't make posts that are inflammatory just to get people riled up. -- [Edited 9/20/04 14:25pm] You are not my "friend" because you threaten my security. | |
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Tom said: TheOrgerFormerlyKnownAs said: With all due respect, why should posts have to be reported to moderators? Don't you guys read all this stuff? There has been some pretty racial/homophobic stuff in this forum and others that clearly is offensive but it wasn't deleted or threads locked.
No, I don't read every post on every thread of this site daily.  It was my impression that since there were so many of you guys now that somebody checked each thread. If I am wrong I apologize. | |
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EWM's tactics of baiting and insulting other orgers have been around for a long time. i wonder sometimes if there is a tendency to be lenient with right-wing orgers, since they are a minority around here. obviously, i can't say that for sure, but it would only be human. typically, the often very eloquent lefties on this board dish out their own beatings (read: reason) on these guys, and things work reasonably well.
it gets worrisome, though, when people get banned, temporarily or otherwise, for responding to baits of EWM's type. | |
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Oh shit yes, God knows I had my battles with EWM. An God knows I was shocked when I read his "solution" for Iran and Syria. I was probably the first to react to his msg on this notorious Iran thread. For many weeks I even had this infamous quote in my signature to expose his ignorance to anyone who cared. But did I ever consider it racist? To be honest, no. I don't think that's how EWMs mind worked here. Yes, this msg shows the highest possible degree of ignorance, an enormous lack of knowledge and understanding and a disturbingly simple "logic" that just prevents any ususal argumentation. That's how most attempts to debat with him go downhill fast. But racism in the classic understanding of the word I didn't see in his quote ...so far. I might be wrong of course. But his suggestion was not based on the fact that he would love to kill all Iranians or Syrians. He simply adapted Bush's pre-emptive strike doctrin and the urge for the United States to play world police, and took it to the top. Or rather over the top. But most of us know by now that his mouth is bigger than his actions, that inside he's rather a softie. He's running to get help from moderators when things get to hot. And vice versa? Hell no Tom, of course there's not a lot of reports about EWMs posts, most people simply don't care enuff to pay attention or don't take him seriously at all. And the ones around who still adress the ignorance exposed are man enough to handle issues on their own.
However, I still didn't see any of PEJ's posts that would deserve a banning. But since the ban is just for 2 days we can get over this I hope, we're already halfway through. 
. [Edited 9/20/04 14:52pm] Vanglorious... this is protected by the red, the black, and the green. With a key... sissy! | |
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mrbungle said: Hopefully this doesn’t get deleted or moved because the issues are relative to any member and all regions of posting. I want to say hello to those who I’ve met on this great site because you are good people. I feel lame for this next sentence considering I usually laugh at those who write it but I need to get some work done so I need to take out any distractions that I have with this work. I need to bar myself from this site for at least a month because it’s so addicting and I’m not getting the concentration I’m needing and it’s a very important time for what I’m trying to achieve so I’m taking out as many distractions so I can focus.
I just wanted to write a letter to point out a few areas of hypocrisy and racism that plague the prince.org message boards. Under different circumstances I wouldn’t have said anything at all but with all of the favoritism that goes around I felt that it was time to say something. A while back there were some issues with racism that took place on prince.org. A few of the members who were involved were banned from the site but some were allowed to stay on the site and with time and the fact of dealing with some backlash these members settled into the posting section going about their business as if they weren’t involved in the problems. Due to the issues that had happened the Prince.org website went through a change with all members agreeing to the new rules and procedures of the prince.org forum. Besides this many new moderators were brought in to monitor the messages getting relayed in and around the board. Recently the tone of some conversations has crossed those rules that were presented and accepted for forum privileges. I can deal with this to a certain level but with that the boards still need to be fair. This is an area where the boards haven’t been coming through at all. There have been countless times where I’ve had threads switched from the general board to politics and religion when it wasn’t warranted. My posts didn’t have anything to do with politics or religion and I’ve wondered why they were moved. I even sent org notes to those mods that changed rooms but I didn’t get any response. I usually just blew it off but this last situation that I see has caused me to write this post because the rules are the rules and if they want to follow these rules correctly then some changes needs to occur. My issues: A member recently has been banned from the site and due to the fact that another member hasn’t been banned it shows a complete lack of standards for rules, favoritism, hypocrisy, and tolerance for racism. Here are some threads that point out some racism that shouldn’t be tolerated: http://www.prince.org/msg/105/112285 http://www.prince.org/msg/105/112766 http://www.prince.org/msg/105/103846 If you go through this and see how the tone is of Evil White Male you can see many of the rules that are part of this community are broken. To start, he is flaming another member or baiting him to a point where most people would be extremely frustrated with the attacks. If you look at these threads you can see the complaints I have with Evil White Male. I haven’t been very vocal about these issues but under the circumstances that the account of Pej and Pejman have been terminated for his altercations with Evil White Male I feel the need to say something. I don’t understand how EWM is tolerated and I don’t see how his account has been suspended or even terminated under the rules that have been given to everyone on the Prince.org message forums. This is just one issue with hypocrisy and favoritism that shouldn’t be allowed on the site. I really don’t have time to post any more and if anyone seems to think I’m off here please let me know how I’m off and how the boards. If anyone disagrees that the Mods don’t favor their friends or themselves when it comes to posting please show me how I’m wrong. If this forum keeps following these practices then the site loses its appeal to people who aren’t even Prince Junkies like me. This site has a very good community that I would hope my community would be close to it in regards to members and the amount of interaction. Hats off to the creator and those who have built this site into what it is. The problem is the site isn’t keeping up to the standards of the rules and this is causing problems that take away from the community which could lead to some sort of exodus. My new online community similar to friendster or myspace Cybertribes.net: Online music news, personal profiles, music contests, video chat, message boards, news of the strange, classifieds, movie reviews and more to come in about a month. Good of you to have pointed out racism and double-standards. I've seen racist posts appear on here from time to time, but they have been very swiftly deleted, which is a good thing. As for EWM, consider this for a moment: the guy calls himself Evil-White-Male. You should know what to expect, right?
Lighten up a little, Bungle. Without EWM and a few others of his ilk (like that Austrian guy above) this place'd be like a burnt out Christmas tree. [Edited 9/20/04 15:13pm] There are three sides to every story. My side, your side, and the truth. And no one is lying. Memories shared serve each one differently | |
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I think its just a problem with how to deal with this board. The mods one day may lock a thread and the next day leave hateful threads and posts up.
Its more about balance than anything. | |
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Abrazo said: Considering the extreme nature of the speech this is also a form of trolling, or knowingly and unnecessarily riling up other people on this board, who may or may not be Iranians or Syrians or have family there, but nevertheless will very probably feel offended by such speech, just to get that reaction.
In other words: EWM's particular conduct constitutes two clear violations of the prince.org rules: Do not post racist or 'hateful' material. [...] Making hateful comments, directed at a person or group, may get your account immediately suspended. We are extremely serious about this. prince.org is not a place for racial bigotry or hateful speech. Don't post trolls/ads/spam/get-rich-quick schemes/other junk. Don't make posts that are inflammatory just to get people riled up. -- [Edited 9/20/04 14:25pm] That's rich. What else do you ever do ... with your daily anti-American rants.... "...all you need ...is justa touch...of mojo hand....." | |
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I think the core problem is whether we prefer to debate the issues raised or the propriety of each other's opinions. It's hard sometimes because we're all so passionate about our beliefs. But sometimes we all fall into the trap of personalizing the debate.
Since my time here, I have tried extremely hard to focus on the issues raised in the threads and not the orgers who post on them. I always try my best to concede points where necessary and make counterpoints where appropriate. Many times, this has worked. I have had very frank and free-flowing exchanges with orgers with different views on different things, including teller, IATT, BanishedBrian, Supa, Aerogram, Abrazo, POOK, and Byron. But on occasion, I found myself the subject of childish ad hominem attacks with little or no justification whatsoever, that bear no relation to the issue being debated. One of those flamers has posted on this thread. He knows who he is. In any event, most times I have restrained myself, but sometimes I have definitely lost my cool, and apologized to the orger when an apology was due. I even posted, long ago, an org Compact outlining certain ideals we should follow on this thread. Teller and a coupla others responded. EWM's views and debating tactics, such as they are, are well-known. Those who can't handle them shouldn't engage him. But at the same time, EWM and anyone else should be able to take whatever they dish out: be it an honest opinion or a personal insult. I don't know what PEJ did to get "suspended," but I am curious. Anyway, I find it saddening that increasingly, many substantive posts on here get lost in personal exchanges. We should remember what Thomas Paine said. When the tongue or pen is unleashed in fury, it is the person, not the subject that becomes exhausted. Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016
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mrbungle said: I don’t understand how EWM is tolerated and I don’t see how his account has been suspended or even terminated under the rules that have been given to everyone on the Prince.org message forums. This is just one issue with hypocrisy and favoritism that shouldn’t be allowed on the site. I really don’t have time to post any more and if anyone seems to think I’m off here please let me know how I’m off and how the boards. If anyone disagrees that the Mods don’t favor their friends or themselves when it comes to posting please show me how I’m wrong.
more to come in about a month. 
I absolutely agree with you. The guy has proven himself to be a cretin on many occasions, but it's let slip by because the mods don't want to seem like they're getting rid of a guy just cause he's adamantly conservative. But it's more than that...he simply doesn't seem like a very nice person which is why I avoid him these days instead of wasting my intellect trying to battle him. There has always been injustice in this place, but I guess it can be hard to moderate such a big site. I will say though that he is an obvious trouble-maker who should have been dealt with a long time ago more severely. . [Edited 9/20/04 16:03pm] | |
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Rhondab said: I think its just a problem with how to deal with this board. The mods one day may lock a thread and the next day leave hateful threads and posts up.
Its more about balance than anything. I agree with that and the problem seems to be that the moderator who deactivated PEJ is one who is never around anyway, Matt. As for saying EWM is racist I think you're giving him more credit than he deserves.
But as others have said above: in balance, what PEJ said was nothing compared to the things EWM has said. | |
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