The Time: Cool, Ice Cream Castles
Prince: I Wanna Be your Lover, America
Headhunters: God Make Me Funky
Rick James: You and I
Marvin Gaye: Got To Give It Up Parts 1&2

There's a ton of superlong funk tunes. I'm trying to build something that goes on and on like that. But I just keep coming up with overlong uninteresting stuff.

My latest thing is in it's infancy, I did some experimenting - trying to push the song to 10 minutes and just add stuff, let it go, see what happens, but man. It's just not interesting enough. Gotta learn how to STOP playing.

Do you guys ever try to compose a 8 or 9 minute jam?

Excellent challenge.

I suppose you can have a very complex and layered intro that builds and builds bringing in each instrument/vocals one at a time. That could run you 1-2 minutes

Next, some complex verse's that run you about 10 bars.

After that, a great hook chorus that changes slightly each time.

Another complex verse

Chorus

Long bridge that showcases some soloing.

Back to chorus

3-4 minute vamp that just has to JAM.
During this, have some slick spoken parts in the background. You pull some witty stuff out all the time.

That just sounds like you're just stretching each part out, extra long.

If you listen to Cool - the back half is it's own variations on a theme - there's the fast horn run jam, the guitar solo, the singalong, etc, that isn't prevalent in the first half, (pop record) part of the song. Same with America. Well, no, America just has 37 oddball solos in there.

"You And I" is another good example though, where the second half turns into a jam, breaking out from the first, (pop radio) half of the song.

So, to do a 2-minute intro, 1-minute verse, etc, would make the song seem even more boring, unless of course, the name of your band is Pink Floyd.

Just my opinion. Stretching the song wont work. I think I have to actually work some MORE on the same song and come up with interesting variations. Dang. Well - actually, I've been doing that all year, re-doing my older songs, differently. So, really, it's just a matter of taking them and re-assembling them. Or something.

I write this as much for myself as for you, as I have tried to do long songs without much success, as well.

I think that there are a couple ways of doing it.
You can make it like Crystal Ball, which seems like several songs melded into one.

Or it can be more like Come, which seems more like the same groove throughout.
Come is stretched way out, so the chorus doesn't come until several minutes into the song.
Of course he also stretches it out with solos, and the aforementioned "talking parts" (or licking in this case). Prince does much talking on those extended songs.

I think a long song might have to seem boring in places, but those parts can lead to something exciting, justifying them. Music happens over time. It can't be all peaks. It takes a valley to appreciate the peaks. Music is about where the journey takes you.

Shine on You Crazy Diamond is another example. The song starts almost out of nowhere. It takes a long time to get started. But when you get to the end it is rocking. (sorry I know you're talking about funk) Again, the "boring" parts are justified because they take you somewhere.

Hey Jude (only seven minutes, but still long) repeats the end over and over ad infinatum. It doesn't seem boring to me because of the intensity of the performance.

Try listening to techno for ideas. Techno does a great job of stretching out music, and it does it in a different way than more traditional music. One intstrument's part might change and the rest of the music changes around it gradually, rather than verse chorus verse.

I think in the end, you need to have the material to justify the length. There's a reason most pop songs are short. They're easier to write and listen to.

we are fighting for a interesting 3 minutes song, let alone a 9 minutes


ah serious, try to break the time and then go back to the song, then you change the keys then come bacxk to the song, then you break the time and change the key and then go back to the song, then you play diminute chords and scream from the top of you lungs, then you hit the crash 100 times in three seconds and do some power chords, then you hit the keys liek pricne did on purple rain then everything stops and i don´t know what i would do, but it does not matter it would be a mess anyway

I just listened to your "Life Can Be So Nice"
I had to listen quiet because I'm at work, but it sounded pretty good.
A great choice for a cover. I've thought about doing it too, you bastard!
I like that it sounds so different from the original.
Do you do it all yourself?

If I was going to extend that song, I would do the whole song, as you did. At the end I would do something kind of like the end of "I could never take the place..."

I would base it on the last part of the song (you know--the two note theme, like "jaws" in reverse).

I would remove all the instruments except a bit of cymbal and kick drum. Then slowly add a couple of instruments, bass, guitar (probably a clean guitar). Maybe some instrumental flourishes here and there from synth or percussion. Or incorporate a new instrument into the rhythm (like synth as a snare)

I would eventually add a snare maybe just on every other 4.
With a guitar solo and maybe some vocal references to the main part of the song, gradually I would increase the frequency of the snare.

I would slowly rebuild the song to it's original intensity or greater. Add some screaming & nice distorted guitar.

This part would start at about 4 minutes into the song. Will it make it to 10 minutes? I'm not sure, but it might be close.

otan said:

Oooh I feel your pain on this one. And this is really hard for me to do since I only throw chords together instead of really sitting down and trying to compose something. As of late, my stuff usually clocks in anywhere from 2:45 to no more than 4 minutes. The one thing I'm certain of is that there must be several breakdowns, each one unlike the other (i.e. solely bass and drums; bass, drums & horns) And most extended funk jams rely on a horn solo. In the case of "Cool" , the synth was the horn as far as Prince was concerned so he vamped from that. In the case of most of those extended jams you mentioned, the extended portion of those songs contain more percussion than the main theme. I think elements like congas, tamborines, etc make a huge difference in those songs.
[This message was edited Wed Jun 16 15:13:52 2004 by psykosoul]

George Clinton, one of the masters of the extended funk jam, only broke the 9 minute barrier occasionaly.

Funkadelic: Knee Deep (This clocks in at a staggering 15:21)
Parliament - Deep (9:09)


James Brown: Get Up I Feel Like Being A Sex Machine
This live version from the Sex Machine album ran 10:48

IMO, the most interesting long-form funk comes from instrumental jazz musicians where creative soloing and more complex orchestrations/arrangements are employed to keep the listener's interest.

Herbie Hancock is the artist that comes to mind immediately:
Palm Grease (10:37)
Actual Proof (9:40)
Butterfly (11:17)
Chameleon (15:38)
Sly (10:18)
Vein Melter (9:10)

tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm

Very good points... specially about the extended, relaxed soloing, as opposed to getting in, make a statement, and then get out.

I'll look into that. Good points folks.

Well, since our keyboard player quit the band (which is not really a big deal BUT we could only have one practice before our next gig) I decided to write some sort of band funk anthem, sort of Time-like, with the "call and answer" type chorus. I could only get about four interesting minutes out of it, but I was trying to keep it really simple so that we could practice it once and then play it out. I figured it'd be good to waste some time, do some soloing and intros, plus around here it'd be kinda unique. Now if I recorded with a live band it'd be so much easier to come up with 9 interesting minutes. I think that if you just compose two more mini-songs that will fit in your main one that 9 minutes is cool. Think of the end of Lady Cab Driver - that's the shiznit - and it's just talkin' and bangin' in a cab.

For me coming up with long jams is not a problem but then it has no structure.

So last weekend after writing down some of the music I've been working on to put a little structure to it, I've found that it makes the songs completely suck. It feels like I've taken a creative idea and tried to put it into a box that it didn't belong (if that makes any sense). Sterile is a word I would use in describing my recent efforts.

I'm going back to my nine-minute songs with no structure other than having a constant, repetitive groove that goes on for ten minutes. This is what's worked for me in coming up with new ideas and if people think the song sucks because of it, who cares.

this thread is kinda funny in a sense.



i never heard a nine minutes song without boring parts, but it´s all good cause it´s a JAM

Im crap at 5 minute songs, always end up doing 7-10 minute tracks. I just cant help myself lol

My latest song in the working is for my EP and its 14 mins long so far lol

7salles said:

Kinda like sex and "sport sex".

I'd like 2 give U some advice on creating a extended piece but all i'd say would be instumentalise; like Pink Floyd, or some of 'Carlos's' longer earlier track's,as i'm not 2 schooled on Clinton, Time & their longer funk stuff.Basically , a couple of themes which can bridge back into each other and 'breed', kind of three or four passages which have a logical coming back home structure musically is what i suggest Otan.Figure 3 or 4 'tags' which might be interchangeable within your general themes.So kind of a couple of songs which have a logical interchange musically.When you create such masterpieces as "life can be so nice", in the 3 to 4 minute solid punching Rock format i feel why do U want 2 change, but i see that having mastered this format, you'd get a bit of a longing 2 search out another style. You've so much talent i'm sure u'll come up with a classic soon! Breeding 3 or 4 dynamic passages which have a common bridge which melts each into the other is what i suggest.Good luck man!
[This message was edited Fri Jun 18 9:09:57 2004 by FLUX]

cloud9mission said:

Cool. You could name it "East".

heh. Just bein a smartass.

The key to this is the same with Classical or Jazz pieces.

Each part (ch, v, pre ch, br, etc..) must have a definable yet unique musical theme. So when its reached, the listener recognizes it. Otherwise you'll lose them. You develope each theme individually and the song as a whole as it progresses. Evolving Dancing and jamming around the common themes of each part, making them sound different, yet the same....thats the artsy, hard part. The balance of not going to far and loosing the listener and no doing enough and boring them?.....

Hope I dont sound like a know it all. This is just theory, always easier said than done.

Littlewing said:

Littlewing and Flux win the awards for best approach to the solution.

Word.

Otan, very nice topic!
I remember I loved when Prince jammed with himself for some time, like on ´I´m yours´ , ´Just as long as we re together´ and ´I wanna be your lover´ (not to mention When doves cry and I could never take the place of your man).
I missed it on Musicology....only on ´Pimp´ we have this taste...

hey otan now thats a challange we are willing to take.


stay tuned...


Blue Jesus
@ The Download Society

Otan:

I just checked out "Life can be so nice", and I have to say that's one of the BEST remakes of a Prince cover that I've heard! It's original and splashy, and you're doing it YOUR way.

I've never been fond of remakes in the past because most people tend to do it just like the original artist... and I'm like "Hey... if you do it like the artist did, what's the friggin point?"

So YOUR version impressed the hell out of me!

DO the damn thing, bro!

--Julian--

THE HARDEST THING I FIND IS KEEPING THE PASSION .SOME MORE 'CHALLENGE' TYPE THREADS LIKE THIS COULD BE REAL INSPIRING; LET'S KEEP PUTTING 'THE ENVELOPE ON THE TABLE' AND SEE WHERE WE CAN PUSH IT.THANKS 4 THE MENTION OTAN, EVERYBODY HAD GOOD IDEAS I RECKON.I THINK YOU KNEW THE ANSWER 2 YOUR QUESTION BY THE TIME YOU HIT THE" POST NEW TOPIC ", BUTTON ; BUT WAS GOOD 2 SEE YOU MIGHT OF ACTUALLY GOT LOST YOURSELF 4 A MICROSECOND!

Oh - no Flux, there is no answer really - I'm just looking for ANYTHING to make an interesting 9-minute funksploration thing. Dynamics, variety, variations on the theme - these seem to be the things I can take with me to try to get it on... whereas, the idea of 7 minutes of soloing - that's just not that interesting to me. I could do it I imagine, but it would be pretty self-spanking, and not much more than that.

Thanks for the compliment Julian.

otan said:

Reading this i just got a flash of those 20 minute drum solo's we endured in the 70's

Jason has a few long funk jams. Adventures of Fo Fo is one of them, I think.

I think with funk you gotta find a way to hypnotise folks and to me that starts with the beat. James has some amazing moments that are far from complex but make you wish they would never stop cause you just get sucked in. P-funkalso had some amazing moments which usually revolved around a bassline that just hooked you in for the journey. You want folks to feel it with the entire body. Throw in some texture and I think you gotta be real free and natural with it. To capture folks for that length it has to be the real deal, if your thinking too hard I don't know if it will work. Almost like a meditation....


I love what Miles did on Man With A Horn, that album is simple and raw as hell but I can listen to it endlessly. It puts me in a different place.

The best way to do it is to pass from 8 and don´t go beyond 10. Myabe it will end up in 9.

I wanna change my advice to.. :use 1 chord on the Guitar like A7th, B7th, or E7th, or a 9th, or "the Jimmy Hendrix chord", but just 1 if you can.Get a hypnotic thing happening as Kevlar suggested, use Bass like in 'musicology', and transfix people into a voodoo groove.Seems 2 ways 2 go; Pink Floyd -classical Rock, type arrangement, or minimilist cajun voodoo.The Emphasis is on Funk, not 9 minutes isn't it...

FLUX said:

Hey, do you mind if I use that?

Slave2daGroove :said
* (C)Flux 2004(just kidding!)
No, Go For it Man !