I was checking the billboard concert section with a friend and we were amazed by how much income big bands generate. So my question is how much money u think an independent artist like Prince makes when on the road.

camilleisfunky said:

Millions- Prince has higher ticket prices than other indie artists.

Sure, but Prince is HARDLY an independant artist. His name and brand have been created by a huge corporation (hello? warner brothers?) so, even tho he's GONE independent, you can HARDLY look at his earnings as comparable to a regular independent artist.

Ani DiFranco - THAT would be a successful, self-made indie artist. Check out what she's pulling in on tours, I have no idea, but just suggesting it. As far as the indie artist that's NOT nationally recognized, going town to town in a rented bus, the income is pennies. Corporations own the radio airwaves, which therefore controls MOST public awareness. Public Awareness is what determines concert ticket sales. Ticket sales = artist income.

So, until the clear channel, and corporate music, stop owning every major radio station, and discontinues the practice of a minimal rotation list, indie artists will have to rely on word of mouth to earn a decent living.

Obviously, previously-corporate/currently-indie artists are exempt from this equation. They relied on corporations to sink millions into public awareness, media exposure, constant brand exposure, and then when they had enough money to want more money, decided to walk away from the corporate machine and declare that they could have done all this alone.

I HARDLY believe that Prince would be the icon he is, were it not for Warner Brothers. His music would have fallen on deaf ears eventually, like thousands of indie artists yearly. He wouldn't have had the money to do Purple Rain, the CD, much less, Purple Rain the movie. And THAT is what skyrocketed him into the public eye.

Just my pinion, y'all.

true...

You are RIGHT otan. You always know how to break it down. Touring costs money. I don't think artists really make any money from ticket sales, they make money off the merchandise, right? Or do I have it backwards?

VinaBlue said:

More money from merchandising AT the tour. Artist generally make JACK from the actual CD. Consider it no different than a flyer or business card to pull people into the gig, to pull people over to the merch table.

But yeah, artists DO make money on the road. But it's a hard game - tour to generate awareness to generate CD sales to generate awareness to generate ticket sales. That's why lots of bands tour incessantly before their huge breakthrough... DMB for instance. They were huge underground before Under the Table and Dreaming ... all from touring, word of mouth.

Of course, there's always the corporate-made-star, like Puddle Of Mud. That guy DID do it the way you read about in Cinderella stories - THREW, literally THREW his demo cassette at Fred Durst at a Lame Bizkit show. Fred got it, and HAPPENED to be looking into starting a label...

That's where you're in the right place, right time, and Faith and Belief and Commitment to your Craft have little to do with it...

well, except that, if Puddle boy didn't believe in himself, he wouldn't go chucking demos at people.

otan said:

Beau, don't be so jaded, the positive vibe brings the positive results. It's a fact and not just pertaining to music. You of all people will make a living with music, I know it. Start with changing that perspective.

IMO the live shows is where you are going to touch people and get a following. I've been drunk trying to get my equipment out of the bar at 3 AM with no pay. It sucks but if 2 people come up to me and say, I felt what you were doing. That's all I need because they're going to go tell their friends then all of them will be at the next gig. Keeping a good energy will come through in your music.

To the point of this thread, there's no comparison between independent artist and people with the majors.

T-shirts are expensive to produce when you're doing a small run. CD's are the same (unless it's you, a cdr and some labels).

How much money do you see from a bar owner when he's charging a cover and selling drinks like there's no tomorrow? Jack shit, that's how much but it doesn't matter. People will keep coming back if they feel your vibe. Then they tell two friends and so on, and so on.

When you have a following of people then you negotiate with people and do your own promotion. Who knows how far you can take this? Some of my favorite artists don't get played on the radio or promoted but their shows are packed (at $15 per ticket). How do you think this happens?

I understand what you're saying, but there's a difference between positive and realistic.

Realistically, VERY FEW people "make it" in music. I'm making good money right now, and if I weren't married with kids, sure, I could definitely push this into a sweet gig, but I'd never get big.

The thing to remember is that half the successful artists that made it are no different than lottery winners - a fluke... There have been what, 200 mousekateers, but only 3 are successful recording artists now? (Britney, Cristina, Justin). THOSE folks on that show are insane-crazy-driven... every one of them, and only 3 climbed to the top.

SO, from MY perspective, there's so very little room at the top. Stevie Ray Vaughan played 4 hours a night, touring bars all over the nation for 10 or 15 years straight, but he became huge only after David Bowie saw him get booed at a Jazz festival. Bowie put him on HIS record (Let's Dance, China Girl - that one) and THEN SRV's solo career started to go places OUTSIDE of small blues clubs.

BUT, at the time, there were probably THOUSANDS of blues guitarists touring hard and heavy. While SRV may have put a shot in the blues genre, it was partially from getting the nod from Bowie, who HAPPENED to release a commercially successful record that year.

ALL this rambling is to say, sure, grow the fan base, yes, keep the positive outlook. BUT, don't make your life's plans around being huge. I would LOVE to see some "DRIVEN" episode on Mickey Mouse Club members that were bigger than Britney and Justin, who's futures seemed DEFINITELY destined for glory, and now they're selling tap shoes... all because they didn't plan for any alternate success: failing to be realistic.

I love playing. In my mind, I AM successful. I HAVE achieved all that I want.

Anything else at this point is sprinkles on the cake.
[This message was edited Thu Jul 31 13:56:23 PDT 2003 by otan]

otan said:

This is all that matters.

I want more. Maybe even a family but music-wise, much more.

I also want to get my music finished so I'm out.

As a ‘solo’ independent, touring can pay. If you have to split your nut between 3 others in a band of four, it gets whittled. If as a band you get on an established tour as an opening act - it either pays or at least, pays for your expenses and allows you EXPOSURE. An indie can’t buy exposure like that - don’t even think of the $. And, if you are fortunate enough be offered this opportunity, better be ready with product to sell. Otherwise...you’re just a tourist, passing thru.

Merchandise is a huge income generator for established artists. But for the cult act or local bar band...it’s hard work selling your wares, whether it be off your web site or out the back of your van. The ‘independent artist’ still conjures the image and lifestyle of struggle. Artists tend to sacrifice more than others for the love of their craft and as an indie living solely from your art - without support, can be tough and you best have a day job and no family to support. But it’s also relative to the amount of work you put into it. And support is where it’s at. If you see a band on tour that you really like and they’re selling T-shirts - heck if you want to see this band record or see them again and can afford the t-shirt - buy it. SUPPORT!

I think independent Artists are about to see a healthy SURGE of new interest from the consumer for music/art. Obviously the internet is an open window to sample new music, new artists and independents like never before. Conventional radio as we know it today is losing ground. It’s losing listeners through boredom and sponsors/commercial clients because hello!! ain’t nobody listening to you anymore. I can find better exposure elsewhere. No radio, less exposure and the so called established musicians/artists, to a certain extent - join the Independents. Everyone is thrown into the same matrix. Yes the established can hire big dollar web designers and pick up sponsors - but so can indies set up a site as good or better and CAN get sponsors. Sponsors will look at anything that is creating a buzz;just have to create the buzz. Remembering too that the web alone is insufficient and you still gotta get out there and make some noise - anywhere and anyhow you can.

So...bringing it back to the idependent, touring and making money...touring is only one important element in getting you to where you want to go. It’s not going to make you rich but nonetheless it's important ...and I’ll echo Otan on this one. If you’re doing what you love and are comfortable with what it’s providing (or not providing)... that is your success.

Ain’t nuphin’ to it but to do it.

well said

Slave2daGroove said:

Nope, T-shirts are only $2.95 a shirt, short run:

http://www.295guys.com/main.shtml

CD's are only about a buck a piece, short run. (1000 units)

Sell em for $10.

theSpark said:

I couldn't sell these 100% cotten shirts and sleep at night. Then 504 shirts as a minimum is over $1,500 that I don't have laying around.

Combine printing flyers, cds, posters, $1,500 for T-shirts and you could easily invest a few grand.

My point is that bands don't make shit when they're starting off. If they don't have day jobs that pay the bills where will they get three grand to invest in promoting it? First they need to get a following so they have people to sell the shit to, then they can spend money promoting themselves.

OR be like Creed and have a bar owner hock everything to make your demo, become your manager, put all their money behind you. If you're talented, it can happen.

I had a bar owner offer me $3000 towards a CD. I just never got it together enough at the time, and then decided it was cheaper to make it at home. And then the rhythm section wanted money from ME to record on MY cd. Jackasses. It got really messy. In the end, I had my CD, but no band worthwhile to promote the disc.

And here I am now, playing sideman and avoiding all that crap for awhile.

Or a Mom that will lend you $1,500 for t-shirts. We're on our second short run and I can tell you... 250 t-shirts at $5.50 sold at $20 is not a bad return and with your web site addy and name...dayum good walking billboards. Hey you can grab a little sponsor on your t's too...just put their tiny logo on the upper sleave and charge them $500 and reduce your costs even more.

VERY good point Red.

You wanna be my mama for awhile?

Otan said: You wanna be my mama for awhile?[/quote]

Would U let me tuck U in. HA!