I can't believe this...

This afternoon I went to my friend's voice lesson. I thought, what the heck, maybe I'll take a few lessons a little later this fall and that'll help me sing my little songs a bit better. Until today, I considered myself an alto with a relatively miniscule range...

Well, guess what? I just found out that I am what he called a "lyrical soprano"... in other words, I could sing opera. Parts like "Aida." He's a retired opera singer himself.

I am in shock... shock... My range is something like 4 octaves.

I need a wee drinkie!

What do I do?

Has anything like this happened to any of you? It's just so weird. It's like those dreams where you suddenly discover an extra room on your house... How is it that I never knew I had this voice before???

The teacher told me that it's actually not a bad thing to start singing classical relatively "late," like I'm doing... Too many young singers damage their voices.

So there's a positive side to all of this.

That's awesome. What are you going to do? Start seriously pursuing opera? Do you like opera? I dunno. If somebody told me that I'd make a great opera singer, I'd thank them and continue down my original path, (only because opera ... whoo what a nap-inducer).

That's great. No it's never happened to me. I've always gone to vocal coaches only to find out that I have the voice of a frog.

That's been hit by a truck.

4 weeks ago.

beauhall said:

How about this Heiress, post a recording of yourself here and let us be the judge on whether this teacher just wants your money. If you have a passion for it, run with it regardless.

yamomma said:

He's a retired opera singer himself, a tenor, who coaches a bit for a hobby. He's a friend of a friend (whose father was, not incidentally, a baritone). So it's not really a question of money, because he won't make any off me. I have to do all the work and practicing myself at home. Besides, with the extreme frank honesty of an old man, he told my friend right in front of her that she didn't have the same abilities. And then explained why (breathing abilities, range, etc)...

I wish I could post a recording here! I don't have the slightest how & the other thing is... my connection is totally retarded. I can barely post here.

But look, what's funny is that I didn't even know I could hit any of those notes. That was the revelation here. I had never even TRIED before.

beauhall said:

I'm going to keep doing my same ol' thing, and learn to sing opera on the side, like a hobby. Then we'll see what happens.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Heiress said:

Really? A Lyric soprano? I'm a dramatic mezzo soprano myself...a "Delilah,Azucena,sometimes Carmen if you will..." you can start your training late...but not TOO late...like past your 30's there is really no point because your vocal chords have matured...I'm getting my degree in Vocal performance and I love vocal pedagogy(study of teaching singing) so if you have any questions I'll respond!I'm an opera nerd since that's what I do 24/7...feel free to send me a message anytime!

NikkiH said:

That's awesome! Cesar (the teacher) said "soprano lyrique" in French, thanks for the proper translation. Lyric soprano, that's it.

Right now I'm doing the breathing exercises he gave me to do; told me I was singing at about 40-50 % of my lung capacity, and that if I learned to breathe properly, my voice would come forward as it should without any special effort. His training was German, so those are the techniques he's showing me.

Just the little bit I've done these past few days has really made a difference. I'm just wondering what took me so long to get into all of this!

We'll talk opera. He suggested I learn Aida. Tell me, how much do you practice every day? I'm trying to work about an hour every evening, doing a lot of breathing, vocalizations, etc. I try to practice breathing throughout the day, when I think about it...

Heiress said:

Oh crap not a German technique teacher...ok...if you really want to do this...you need to find someone that teaches "heavy mechanism", there are some German techniques that work...but they encourage some bad things...like TOO much chord closure...which can give you a "froggy" sound...just read up on some things..I'll orgnote the addy of my pedagogy teachers afrticles on breathing and support and diction to help with your breathing issues.(By the way...it's not just your loungs that aid in breathing there is much more...just know hat noone can use 100% of their lung capacity or else their lungs would collapse... )Also,what aria are you working on from Aida? Did he tell you Aida is for a DRAMATIC not a LYRIC soprano? Though...I think he's just trying to get you warmed up...(Renee Flemming is a dramatic soprano,Kiri Te Kanawa is more of a lyric)I suggest investing in some good recordings of sopranos(old or new..Anna Moffo and Leontyne are amazing)and really doing some research along with your practicing...I practice and hour or more a day..on top of my voice lessons and coachings...and rehearsals...I just finished a summer opera program...I'll send you some mp3s if you want when I get the recording...we have some great singers in my school, including a soprano I did a scene with...your practice sounds about right...if anything hurts though...STOP!Don't push yourself too much in the beginning...

beauhall said:

Well it's not everyone's cup of tea...I mean it's not a nap inducer to me because I study it and know the stories...I mean...there's rape,murder,suicides and on the opposite spectrum..there's tons of comedy...all sorts of crazy stuff in opera..the problem is alot of people don't know the stories...they just hear a bunch of singing..which can be intimidating...

NikkiH said:

Hey yeah... he said i was a lyric on the "heavy" side. That's why he thought I could handle Aida, but thought, say, Tosca (a definite dramatic) could be a bit tough for me.

I don't have the music for it yet, he said he had to retrieve it from another place. In any case, there's a few other things I'm working on right now... like finding a piano (I've been playing a bit at a friend's, and recognize that it's not enough to get me back in practice), and waiting to see about a regular singing job. I'll see Cesar again sometime in September (oh yeah, did I mention I have this thesis to finish as well, before then?)...

So one thing at a time.

What's "heavy mechanism?" Heck, I'm still getting the breathing from the diaphragm bit down right now.

Heiress said:

There is no such thing as "breathing from the diaphragm" your abdominal diaphragm is an involuntary muscle...in other words you cannot use it to breathe with... :-)The reason your tummy bulges when you breathe the right way is because of your abdominal muscles(rectus abdominus) expanding outward.(And there is alot of other stuff too...but I won't go into it!) "Heavy Mechanism" is the Italian technique of opera singing...it's what they teach at my school...we learn all about the different nooks and cranies that produce sounds...you can get a keyboard...it doesn't have to be a piano...and since you're writing a thesis...ever talk to anyone from your schools music department? Maybe you could use a practice room?

NikkiH said:

heh heh, seems like italian vs. german is the eternal opera debate. especially in europe.

as for the "diaphragm breathing" expression - it's a difficult idea to express. but that's how the old guy said it. as for heavy mechanism... any books you could recomend, for starting notions of all this?

i absolutely must have a real piano (IMHO). this is something, i believe, will work itself out at the right time. i just have to hang in there.

never thought to ask about about a music room at U Paul Valery! I'm only in there now & then (i study independantly)... for the time being, w/ a toddler, i'm somewhat tied to the house. but i know the only way i'm going to practice like i should is if i have one at home where i can chill and work on my composing... opera-singing-wise, i may be a savage, but my background is classical piano, and i'm eager to get back to it (now that i may indeed be doing music for a living with a local band).

Heiress said:

Well I had two pedagogy textbooks..one is really great but out of print so my teacher had to make us copies( ) and the other one is called "Singing:the mechanism and the Technic" by William Vennard...you could also go the tsmp.org and click on the choir section and read articles by David Jones that's my Ped instructor...it might alos benefit you to by an aria book...you can find those on amazon...I understand the piano thing...my mom's a pianist...the key weight of some keyboards really suck! I was just saying if your were only gonna use it for voice then just get something temporarily...I love that we're having this discussion...I feel like an opera nerd alone in the world right now!

NikkiH said:

well, i appreciate your feedback a great deal! opera is a whole new world for me. i mean, i've been singing for 20 years, but opera's the only use for a 4 or 5 octave range, right? does anyone ever ask you to use that stuff singing country? not much.

i'm trying to get tickets for Carmen in September.

Heiress said:

Carmen is one of my favorite operas! I think because there is a mezzo lead for once...which is rare...

Hey Heiress! Wish you lived in the states! I'm looking for a new lead vocalist!!

NikkiH said:

mezzo looks like fun to sing.

tell me, while i can still pick your brain... what's the exact difference between lyric and dramatic, soprano-wise?

jojofran said:

yeah jesse, that's too bad! well, i guess i'll be keeping busy here.

how about fantasy - does she sing?

Heiress said:

it's more of a color difference than a scale difference..."dramatics" have darker,warmer voices,and lyrics have lighter voices

NikkiH said:

ok, as i suspected. that Cesar talked a lot, skipped subjects, recounted anecdotes... i missed a thing or two in all that. now i think what Cesar was trying to say is that i need to work on my lung power in order to fully assess my possibilities. that's where the talk of dramatics & the like came in...

hey, tell me about a mezzo. now mezzo meaning "half," it's a lower register, right? what are the qualities of a good mezzo voice? (i sing down as far as low C, on a good day, without sounding too froggy)...

Heiress said:

Yeah it just means a lower singer... I found a encyclopedia article that explained it perfectly..."A mezzo-soprano (meaning "half soprano" in Italian) is a female singer with a range usually extending from the A below middle C to the A two octaves above (i.e. A3-A5, middle C = C4). Mezzo-sopranos generally have a darker (or richer) vocal tone than sopranos, and their voice type sits between the soprano and the contralto. The terms Dugazon and Galli-Marié are sometimes used to refer to light mezzo-sopranos, after the names of famous singers. A castrato with a mezzo-soprano range was called a mezzo-soprano castrato.

Mezzo-sopranos typically sing secondary roles in operas, with Bizet's Carmen and Rosina (in Rossini's Barber of Seville) as the most notable exceptions. Typical roles for mezzo-sopranos include "witches, britches, and bitches", a common expression that summarizes their function in opera. Witches are the old hags, nurses, and wise women that are seen in operas, such as Azucena and Ulrica. Britches are breeches roles, males roles typically played by mezzo-sopranos, such as Cherubino and Octavian. Bitches are the sultry seducers that lead men astray, such as Carmen, Venus, and Dalila.

Some roles designated for soubrette sopranos are also often sung by mezzo sopranos. This gives the roles a fuller and more dramatic quality, which often suits them well. Such roles include Despina in Cosi Fan Tutte and Zerlina in Don Giovanni. Other roles designated for dramatic sopranos walk a fine line between soprano and mezzo territory. Mezzos quite often play Santuzza in Cavalleria Rusticana, Lady Macbeth in Verdi's Macbeth, and even Isolde in Tristan und Isolde. These examples are simply proof that the line between soprano and mezzo soprano is not clearly defined." So what do you mena by low c? Like C below middle c or middle c?

NikkiH said:

I mean, I can sing an octave below middle C. I sing a lot of country songs originally written for men... because I have this rich lower voice, I've always assumed I was an alto. Just never had a reason to sing the high stuff. Weird though that now I know it's there, it just comes out.

Yes, just in mere casual reading on the subject I have noticed an ambiguity between the mezzo & the "regular" soprano. I suppose there are all kinds of voices within these categories, and a lot depends on the individual singer.

I didn't get tickets to Carmen, by the way. My friend said they were already sold out. But on the other hand, it's lovely to see, she said, that opera can compete with soccer in this town - there's apparently a game the same night.

This is such a fun discussion; thanks for having it with me. By the way, what are your future artistic plans - what would you like to do with that mezzo?

Heiress said:

Well that sucks that you didn't get tickets... Well actually I'm thinking about going to grad school for ethnomusicology and performance and eventually getting my doctorate...I might do pedagogy though because I love teaching voice.

NikkiH said:

so you'd like to perform and teach? that's ideal. in my case, anyway, when i just teach and nothing else, i feel a bit as if i don't really have a life. i need something to fuel the teaching, you know, to make it more human. i used a lot of music and theatre work with high-schoolers.

some voice would be great for teaching english to adults... modulation and tone, for achieving a better accent.

hey - i went on wikipedia and looked up voices - i saw a lot of overlap between roles & categories...

but how about this "wagnerian" soprano voice? is this a rare thing?

Heiress said:

A Wagnerian is basically a dramatic soprano that can sing loud for extraordinary amounts of time I mean...one soprano is supposed to sing all of the Ring cycle of operas night after night after night over a Wagnerian orchestra...which is loud as h@ll...I'm talking singing for 4 hours at a time night after night really loudly...yes...it's rare...

NikkiH said:

but oddly enough, it's kind of a stereotype of what an opera singer is. i mean, it's exactly the sort of thing that came to my mind. the large, loud opera singer w/ the braids and horned hat.

Heiress said:

Yup,Brünnhilde from Die Walkure...is what you are thinking of which is a Wagnerian soprano

NikkiH said:

exactement. which in a way, makes otherwise competent singers who know little about opera believe that they couldn't possibly sing it, because they don't have wagnerian lungs.

NikkiH said:

I'm a classically trained violinist, and while I do find classical music sometimes a snooze (and I'm pretty familiar with it), I find it much more fun to play than to listen to. The reason being that it's more complex and interesting to work with and challenging and in many ways has more meat to it than other genres of music. I play violin in a rock orchestra, but I really miss playing classical because it's simply more intricate and rewarding and uses my skill.