In the one heated debate over grammar and punctuation, it finally dawned on me that, the author was correct - if I'm needling a grammer, spling and punctu'ation, I probably ain't getting the message.

And you're absolutely right. The thing for me is the grammar, spelling and punctuation. The snob-elitist in me prevents me from "getting" the message. And yes, I can NOT get through the CD booklet in a Prince CD for the same reason. Love his music and eventually, I'll pick up the lyrics from listening, but I just can NOT read that crap.

Why is that? My parents were both English majors. They climbed their way out of backwoods farms to get an education and made damn-sure that they gave me what they'd learned. Therefore, it's almost impossible for me to read anything with crap-ass spelling, grammar, or punctuation errors.

Therefore, I beg you. Tell me how to leap this hurdle and appreciate your poetry with it's semi-ellipses (that would be TWO periods instead of ONE or THREE), your mispelled words, your absent punctuation. Please, tell me how to drink in the message when it's almost impossible to pick through the plethora of mistakes? And bear in mind, subconciously, every error I get to, my mother is clicking her tongue at you.

I'm sure the messages are meaningful. I know they mean a lot because of all the positive feedback I see in those posts. And honestly - the last thing I want to do is to put down your attempts at pouring out your soul, baring your heart to what can (seem to be) a hostile board at times. We're not hostile -- the criticism you see is constructive -- we want your poetry to excel. We want every musician to improve their craft so that everyone has music that reaches a million ears.

I WANT to be able to get through your poems. I WANT to get your message, but the errors, (intentional or ignored) prevent me from getting your message.

So, clearly and concisely, tell me how to appreciate poetry. Please try to refrain from ending a sentence with two periods. It's like claws on a chalkboard..

There are plenty of poems and lyrics out there that use correct grammar, punctuation and spelling. That's what editors are for, right? Certain typos are a HUGE distraction for me as well. It's like triping over a bump in the sidewalk. It interrupts the flow. It's no different than when an audio engineer hears a song and all they can pay attention to is the mixing mistakes.

In regards to that post, it has made me rethink why I come here. I'm going to take a break for the summer. I'll check in before school starts and will hopefully have some new music done to share.

My take is this. Whatever you do to convey the vibe of your work, is what it is. If I feel you through the written word, I feel you.

Correct "grammer" and punctuation when it comes to creative endeavors is optional in my opinion. It's called creative writing but if it's so unintelligible that I don't understand what is being conveyed, then that's a different story.

I think nit-picking things out of a poem should be left to the anal-retentive proofreaders of the world. To me it's like picking out the 3rd note of your guitar solo and saying it was flat or that your chord progression doesn't follow the correct order.

I agree with the statement that "you can't break the rules without learning them first" but at the same time some of the greatest things have been created by people without any formal education. If it bothers you, that's your issue not the person who created it.

B-hall took a gr8 fall down the hall to play sum ball

Thank you yamomma. That was beautiful. You are excused now.

whhhhhy? we be trippin' like dis all de time?

I'm not tripping. I'm not bashing bad grammar - I'm saying - I don't get poetry at all. That's all.

Sheesh...I've really been wanting to add my two cents as well, but didn't want to offend. However, I must agree that seeing the spelling, grammar and punctuation mistakes really puts me off as well. I don't know if any of you knew this but - I TEACH HS ENGLISH! That should tell you something right there! I've gotten tired of posting corrections to people who don't know the diffence between "your" and "you're" or "too," "to," and "two." (I don't know how many of you read my band's old message board where I bashed our drummer for his LOUSY spelling and typos, but tried to act like he was speaking for the band as a whole) When I looked at the aforementioned poem that's the first thing I noticed. Sorry, but it's true. For all of you aspiring writers out there, you should really learn about the four (or five for some) steps of the writing process. There is a proofreading and revising step and the LAST step is publishing, not the other way around. Please, don't be offended if someone tries to HELP you with spelling or grammar, either. There are lots of poets who've experimented with punctuation, stanzas, enjambment, capitalization, etc. They do this for a desired effect, though, not because they don't know HOW! Go ahead and take a look at the poems of ee cummings and you'll see what I mean. Thanks for speaking up, Beau. I can't wait for my free copy of your CD.

I know this may or may not be the case but, sometimes people use improper grammer for style purposes. "If I Was Your Girlfriend" comes to mind as a good example.

I would like to see more poetry on this board so I thought I'd jump in with my two cents worth.When finishing high school I was studying English Literature, Metaphysical poetry.It was more like Physics, or Algebra. Poets like Shakespeare ,John Donne. (1572–1631),Andrew Marvell. (1621–1678)to name a few, really compressed their thoughts through language in a way which took some deep deciphering.I know they were from a different era, a different language really, but it's the type of stuff we had to read, and understand, or fail the exam.
Modern poetry, like modern Art, is a reflection of the society and environment we live in. Crass,capitalist, fast, and decadent are a few terms which come to mind and some of these elements naturaly come through into our Art.I also have [quote]tired of the "2 U's " & "B4's" "gr8's",as I have to decipher them, and it slows me down. Younger people who've grown up with this way of expression take it for granted as common usage, as they should.If you were to read poetry, without license , I don't know where you'd find it, maybe a technical manual?
Here's some example's from John Donne:



At first these extracts which are out of context, and just examples, sound like jiberish, to me. But I get the meaning after a few reads. So also with Modern poetry, Music, or Art.
Here's a description of Metaphysical poetry:
"which Reacting against the deliberately smooth and sweet tones of much 16th-century verse, the metaphysical poets adopted a style that is energetic, uneven, and rigorous."
"It has also been labelled the 'poetry of strong lines'. In his important essay, 'The Metaphysical Poets' (1921), which helped bring the poetry of Donne and his contemporaries back into favour, T. S. ELIOT argued that their work fuses reason with passion; it shows a unification of thought and feeling which later became separated into a 'dissociation of sensibility'.”
It seems, in my opinion after something has been done in a perfect way, the only course is to work at breaking down the rules which defined the Classic and perfect, in the way that music is becoming less rigid, as with painting, and writing.There's not the time or interest to go further with this, but I think the bottom line is if you don't wanna read something, you don't. Poetic License is disorientating, like jazz maybe ?

i think one has the right to write how they want, it is a form of expression, life i think is beautiful even with it's "mistakes" .

POOK said:

So then, to appreciate music,
you have to write a song?
To appreciate paintings,
you have to paint?

I disagree.

Lots of people appreciate
poetry who dont write it,
music who dont make it,
and paintings who dont paint it.

So there's my poem.

I agree with what Flux said about the rules and current times affecting the styles, and stuff like that... and yeah, exactly, to some degree, you can write whatever you want, however you want, it's art and by definition, art is creation. My concern is the attempt at being correct in their form, and just screwing up wicked.

The bad ellipses are the things that are making my nosehairs curl. The TWO periods. Are they ending a sentence with a period and just got a little carried away, or were they ending the sentence with an ellipses, and forgot to add the last one?

Or, wow! Are you creating a new grammatical punctuation? Because, well, that would be awesome, except in one poem, there's 2, 3, sometimes 4 dots in a row. Honest, if they showed consistency, I would absolutely see it as art and not ignorance. But, to that argument, "folk art" is art that's primitive and is without any formal schooling, right, so, then, this must be "folk poetry" I suppose.

And by all means, I'm not telling ANYONE to stop. I'm not saying "your message is wrong". It's the delivery of the message. But, as always, hey, that's just my opinion. Your message would reach more people if you followed the basics, or consistently ignored the basics. One or the other.

Your message would reach me.

It's your decision.
[Edited 7/25/05 6:33am]

beauhall said:

BO MISS POOK POINT

POOK ONLY MEAN MOST POET LIKE OTHER POET

SO THAT POET READ THEIR OWN POEM

POETRY FOR SELF

Pook is funny as helle

There is no such thing as propper grammar
because it does not exist and animate within the "human consciousness"...
Everything is meant to be "maleable"
and everything is meant to heal.....within this plane of existance

Don't mean to sound like the typical "cosmic trype" that happens around here occaisonally..... but

Beat poetry is not too far removed from what's happening
Because,
Every succeeding voice has to find its (quote in quote) own force for its own recognition...

Dig me?

(you probably won't respond--but I hope you do, and its still all Luv!)






J-

p.s. Big Ups to you and Dreamfirstborn!

For real!