let's make a list of musicians who can't
read notation. I don't know any..
[Edited 11/28/04 12:59pm]

Paul McCartney and the songwriter in ABBA, Benny Anadersson

Phil Collins
Errol Garner
Luciano Pavarotti
Les Paul
Wes Montgomery
Django Reinhardt
George Benson
Jimmy Smith
Joe Pass ("I wish I had studied music and learned theory and everything just to expand...")

Just to name a few.

tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm

Prince
Slash
HEndrix
Nuno bettencourt

And, of course, those who can barely read at all:

Britney Spears
Courtney Love
Tommy Lee

A local musician in NJ who knows George Benson told me that he couldn't read music. I didn't believe him.

7salles said:

Where did you get the idea that Prince can't read music???

I'm pretty sure he can.

Prince can't read music. He has told that many times

Stevie Ray, Eddie Van Halen? Not positive on that one.

Stevie Ray admitted to Guitar World Magazine that he didn't even know the names of most of the chords he was playing. He had a music class in high school and didn't do well in it.

Eddie Van Halen stated in Guitar World that he couldn't read and that he believes that there are twelve notes in a scale - what you do with those notes is up to you. Though he studied classical piano. In fact, I just found his statement's in my copy of Guitar World Presents Van Halen:

VAN HALEN: I mean, I don't know what scales are - I just play what sounds rightto me. I never had a lesson in my life, So, this scale or that scale, I don't know. To me, you have 12 notes to work with, and whatever configuration you use is up to you.

GW: But didn't you study music theory as a kid?

VAN HALEN: I was supposed to. It takes too long to learn. I don't even like to read books! If I had to learn to read music, it would take forever.

artist08 said:

I'm guessing that not every musician means the same thing when they say they can't read music. I think the ability to 'read' in jazz and classical means being able to play a piece a prima vista (right away, without even having heard it). Which is somnething different than understanding basic notation, being able to figure out a melody or chord from it.

A lot of this seems bullshit that most of these players are saying they can't read music.

JesseDezz said:

Give me a fucking break.

Jem said:

You're schooled, right? You learned the scales by actually learning the scales. I don't know jack about scales. I know that there's 5 frets in a given region, one of which is the root fret, (where my index finger resides most of the time) and then there's certain spots on each string that will sound good depending on the song - minor, major, etc. I never ever EVER learned a scale. I play what I've played for 25 years now, and as each year goes by, I probably modify what I play slightly, based on accidents I've made that worked... incorporating those accidents into my "scale".

So. Go listen to Van Halen 1. And then go listen to their latest CD. You'll hear Eddie playing the exact same groupings of notes, in the exact same phrases, with a few modifications.

So. That would be how he plays the way he plays. His father was a classically trained clarinet player, so, I'm guessing that Eddie's got some advanced EARS that enable him to pick out some advanced runs, (series of notes) but he probably could only tell you "oh, that? I got that run from Beethoven's 9th, sort of in the middle where the violins go dadadadadaddadaaaadum"

But. Since you are schooled, and you practice, and you are very good at the style that you play, I get the feeling that you can't imagine anyone getting THAT good without learning scales.

And I'm exactly the opposite. I can't imagine that anyone can get as good as you only from learning scales and practicing written out music, more than just jamming along randomly to some old stones record.

So, you say Gimme A Fucking Break, I say Potato.

C'mon Otan, you must at least have picked up on terms like pentatonic blues scale?
Personally, I find scales useful tools when I'm figuring out stuff. After I've learned the song, I forget the scales I'm using.

But I think it's safe to say that guitarists tend to think in shapes on the neck (chords, patterns) rather than notes and scales. To me, a dorian scale is a shape that I learned a name for. Same for a 7#9 chord. The shape comes first in my mind.

hectim said:

I didn't say I never TRIED to learn them. I have a book/CD sitting on a shelf at home. Useless. And the Pentatonic scale - I know about it, and could probably come close to picking out the notes in that scale, but I don't "know it" know it - know what I mean? So, back to my statement, no, I don't know any recognized/trained scales. I know the Otan scale - which is:
E: 0-2-3-4-5
B: 0-2-3-4-5
G: (-1)-0-1-2-3
D: (-1)-0-2-4
A: (-2)-0-2-3
E: (-2)-0-2-3

where 0 is the fret that I lay my index across, and the negative ones, (-1, -2) are incidentals to make it sexy. Now, yeah, that's close to a pentatonic scale, and I play blues which is based around the pentatonic scale, but at no point did I sit down and LEARN the pentatonic scale. I sat down and learned guitar licks from Hendrix, SRV, BB, etc.

So then, again, when EVH says he never learned scales, do you understand why I can believe that? He learned how to play guitar on his own, without scales, etc.

And THAT is why I believe that taking lessons might colorize whatever style you might have inside you. Sure, the lessons got you playing better faster, but you never went through the process of finding odd notes that just sound good to you, despite whatever things you might have been taught in the past. Which of course makes trained guitarists cringe. And I'm not saying "Lessons ruin you". Just saying, I found what works for me, and it worked for EVH, Hendrix, SRV, etc.

I WISH I could play like Eric Johnson sometimes, but that's not my style.

I believe you
It's funny though, because I find that my realtive lack of education often stops me from playing the music i hear in my head. I just can't find those licks and chords, as soon as I try something I hear THAT and lose the sound in my head. Learning that a certain sound can be achieved by using an altered scale or a dominant flat 5 chord is for me a necessary means to translate what's in my head to the fretboard.

Me. I can read trumpet music though.

hectim said:

This is exactly why I'm going back to college. I have more ideas than I do ability to convey them, it's more than frustration for me.

To comment on the original post would be redundant, Otan's right about Eddie and everyone else is right about Prince, SRV and the list is endless. I don't think there's a right way or a wrong way when it comes to understanding music, everyone just has to find their own way.

I think I've just realized why I've out grown Van Halen. I love the old stuff and the reunion concert with Sammy was good I just couldn't relate to the music anymore.

typo - edit
[Edited 12/1/04 9:05am]

hectim said:

When I hear stuff in my head, I either go lay down the stuff onto a blank track on the recorder and then try to follow it on guitar, (or bass, or whatever I was intending for that line) OR I go up my medication.

Here's an exercise that may help to break you away from the "shapes and patterns" us untrained guitar pickers normally gravitate towards. Take any chord progression, or even a song you already know, to solo over. Before you touch the guitar, sing a short solo phrase you'd like to play, out loud. Find the notes. Initially keep the phrases short so that the melody is easily committed to memory. The act of singing the phrase gets the idea "out of your head" and makes it a reality quickly, without the impediment of the guitar.

This ability to sing/vocalize an idea was commented on by Leo Kottke referring to Joe Pass.
(this is part of a roundtable discussion with Leo Kottke, Joe Pass, Pepe Romero and Paco Peña)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I'd like to ask one more question related to learning. Often, guitarists band together around their common instrument and are very aware of what other guitarists are doing. Yet it often seems that the most innovative players are the ones who are listening to other instruments and taking their sources from outside the guitar. Do you think it's healthy for guitarists to focus heavily on the guitar?

PASS:

I say no.

KOTTKE:

I agree with Joe.

PASS:

I can't play you one Charlie Christian lick, and I come from that tradition. Or I may play it, but I can't say, "This is from that song he recorded in 1939." I listen to saxophone players, piano players, classical guitar players. I didn't listen to a whole string of jazz guitarists.

My point is that it's good to listen to guitar players but you shouldn't emulate one player. When you're young you're always impressed by one guy, and you say, "I want to play like him." If you play like Wes Montgomery -- Wes was the first one to play octave-style -- you could be even greater than Wes, but it doesn't make any difference. What you have to do is develop your own character in music, your own way of doing things.

KOTTKE:

When I ask Joe a question -- and I ask a lot of them -- about harmony or playing or something, he hums the answer, he vocalizes the answer; he doesn't play it. That means a lot to me.

http://www.guitarmusic.or...ja941.html



tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm

otan said:

Don't we all. He looks like he's a slave when he's playing live, but besides that, he's one of the most accurate players I've heard. The chords he's playing are pretty complex too. and beautiful.

there has to be a balance between playing by ear and being able to read music. I find that being able to read music actually helps me to know what I am hearing. For example, when I hear a minor chord progression and then it drops a third and then another third I can find it quickly and easily because I would know that the second chord was a major chord followed by a minor chord. I know this because I know theory.But I don't say this to mean bury your head in a book either. It helps you as a musician to get book and street experience in music.

otan said:

Otan, My Lawd i thought i was the only one man

talmuzic said:

Very good point Tal. A well balanced musician will overpower a self-taught OR a schooled one any time.

(damn. I gotta get my lern on)

Alan Holdsworth
Micheal Mcdonald ( pretty sure on this)
Lionel Richie ( saw him say that in an interview years ago )

As far as its worth, depends on the medium you are creating in, there are plenty of valid expressions that require it and just as many that don't. Niether path is more valid than the other. Some voices such as Jimi's are a great example of letting the creator create without the fingerprints on the brain as he put it.

talmuzic said:

You're right on point.

If you're gonna play music that's more complex than 3 chord rock or funk on the one, some understanding of basic theory and chord forms can't hurt. It certainly would give you a clue as to what can be done solo-wise with chord progressions that have key center changes. Outside of that, you'd have to have an incredible ear and done a lot of listening and shedding. This must be what cats like Benson, Pass and other non-reading super players have done.

A look inside the mind of Janek Gwizdala (a young cat with these extra tools at his disposal)...

So you’re pretty strong on theory huh?

I’ve studied it a lot.

What are the most fruitful part of music theory for you-parts that come across in your playing or soloing?

Let’s see.. when playing over vamps you have to think of say, a Dmin7 like George Benson does, changing it into II-V’s in modulating different keys.

Dave Liebman’s chromatic lines and theory is very interesting. Displacing bebop lines by octaves. Take a regular II-V lick and pop a couple of notes up an octave or chromatically alter them a bit and get incredible lines. A lot of Coltrane things, patterns used musically with great time and phrasing, can be very useful. There’s so much stuff. Just Dm7 to G7 to C major. I mean you start there and get so many ways of approaching the final chord, never getting to it, and it sounding really hip. You can think about every chord as a minor chord, for instance.

That’s what Martino does, right?

Yeah, he’s known for that, but, see, that’s a great example of what I was saying before about the tradition. That’s from Dizzy an Charlie Parker, when they invented bebop. On a B flat major seven, they’re thinking G Minor seven. That association is how you get the bebop lines. The relative minor, the jazz melodic minor, you basically have what can be looked at as a B flat Lydian, from G to G, with the raised 5th , the F sharp. It’s that F sharp that gets you that bop sound. That’s G-A-Bflat-C-D-E-Fsharp-G. The chromatic approach to all those chord tones is be bop. Then there’s ways of playing in and out around it.

If I was going to tell people to investigate harmony, the Dave Liebman concept would be one, the concept of thinking from minor would be another, thinking of all chords as a minor chord.

Also the diminished access (as it was taught to me, there are many names for it) approach is another one. Take a II-V-I in C – that’s Dm,G7 to C Major- and build on the roots of each with a diminished. So, on the D Minor, you’ve got D-F-A flat, on the G, you get G, B flat and D flat, and leave that C major alone. On all the root notes you have from the diminished chord, make those the root of the II and the V. So now you have three possibilities. D Minor, F Minor and A flat minor seventh- going to G7, Bflat7 and Dflat7, as possible II-V routes to get to C. So you could play basic II-V licks F to B flat, but going to C Major as the I. Over the V you play Lydian dominant from the roots with the #4 and flat seven. That’ s giving you the basic notes of the G altered scale, which most people seem to think about nowadays as the A flat melodic minor from the G. It’s a way to play patterns on Fmin7, B flat 7 to C- or A flat minor 7 , D flat 7 to C.

By the way, there’s no use knowing any of this stuff without sitting and playing with someone. (laughs). And it’s all about the phrasing!

Yeah, I have that Scott Henderson video where he emphasizes that.

Oh, man . I have seen that as well! A friend of mine studied with Scott at GIT. It was the first thing he said to them, “ It doesn’t matter what notes you play. It’s all about the phrasing!” So of course, a kid in the audience says, “Bullshit!” So Scott pulls him up and says, “OK…you play a C major 7 vamp. I am going to play nothing but notes from the D flat major scale!” See, there are only a couple notes in there to emphasize- an F sharp , which gives it a Lydian thing and the C natural, the root, but he makes it sound great!

That brings up another thing I heard. Someone asked Gary Willis once about the difference between playing with Henderson and Holdsworth. His answer, to paraphrase, was that with Scott, at least, he’s very familiar and you kind of know what Scott’s going to play and it’s just amazing and incredible, but with Allan it get just so unpredictable, that it’s from another planet. I think that Holdsworth’s playing is the ideal to strive for. To me, he’s the closest thing, now, to Coltrane. I think his book, “Just for the Curious”, is amazing. It’s deep! His system of chord voicings is explained somewhat in there.

http://www.globalbass.com...izdala.htm
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm

newpowerboy said:

Really?? I used to read every article about him from 84 to 90 and I never remember himevery saying any such thing.

I'd be pretty shocked if he can't read it.

I knwo we can't go by this, but in the movie The Kid reads and writes music (Then again, in Glitter, so did "Billie", Maraih's character, and she has said she doesn't read music, although she has an amazing ear, but then again she doesn't play instruments)

So do you have a source? Cuz this is just shocking to me andI can't believe I would have missed this... (ps I have the Vault and all those books too).

Oh, and Prince studied music in high school, so he mustve learned theory and notation there,.

Why is it so hard to believe that Prince can't read music? Lots of musicians can't. It's been stated many times - he even says it in his first interview with his high school newspaper.