Attn: Dan Hendrickson, Re: complaint # 57023295

Hello - my name is Andrew Gadek and I filed this claim against the NPG Music Club in late 2003 because I believed that they were not giving me the full benefit of membership by kicking me out of the discussion forum part of the site (which is also where certain events are announced, such as member pre-sales for concerts)...and I paid the $25 membership fee just like everyone else.

Mr. Hendrickson was kind enough to develop this complaint, and he received a response by email from info@npgmusicclub.com - I received a copy of this response in the mail a few weeks ago.If you do not have this on file, I would be happy to fax a copy for review. The response is only signed "NPG Music Club" - which actually is another complaint I have...there are no names over there, so nobody is accountable for anything. There isn't even any way for a member to get in touch with an employee of the club (even anonymously, by email for example) if they are having a problem accessing the site.

In the response, which was emailed to Dan Hendrickson on 1/5/04, "NPG Music Club" stated among other things that, "his membership to the rest of the site is still active." She or he then concluded by saying, "We felt it was in the best interest of the club that we ban Mr. Gadek from the forums and chat areas of the website. He is free to use the many other areas of the site, as always."

This was true for most of January, but at some point towards the end of January, my log-in ID and password for the general site stopped working suddenly. I do not understand why they would tell you that they were allowing me to use the rest of the site (again, that I paid for) and then turn around and do the exact opposite. Like I said, there is no way for me to get in touch with anyone from the Club to ask them why my membership has now been revoked.

When I received the response in the mail I went onto a Prince fan community website that I frequent called www.prince.org - interestingly, "NPG Music Club" mentioned it in his/her response to my complaint, writing that "He continues to use hurtful and abusive language about the club on another public Prince fan site, www.prince.org (Look up any posts by theblueangel and it will be quite obvious)."

I am confused as to why it is any of the Club's business if I post on other web sites, not to mention WHAT I post on other sites. Prince.org is a non-profit, fan-run website with a thriving online community of Prince fans all over the world, and I have made many good online friends on there over the years -- plus they are consistently WAY ahead of Prince's "official" subscription service in terms of news about upcoming releases or concerts or things of that nature...and since I was kicked out of the discussion forums at NPG Music Club in July, 2003, I post solely on the Org now (before that, I posted on the Org as well as at the Club).

I don't know if this is why my membership was revoked (please keep in mind that when I filed the original complaint my full membership had NOT been revoked, so this is a new development which prevents me from accessing any of the membership benefits) - I wish I could tell you exactly why they decided I couldn't use any part of the site (in addition to banning me from the discussion forums, which has been the case for 7 or 8 months now). However, when they kick a member out, they don't send an email or any other kind of communication to let that member know that this action was taken and why.

Is it acceptable for a company to deny service that has already been paid for by a customer because they find out that the customer has been sharing the information he/she has learned from the filing of the complaint with the BBB with other customers and potential customers on a public website? It seems incredibly wrong to me. They want absolute iron-fisted control over what kinds of viewpoints are posted at their site...well, I think that's extremely sad and narrow-minded, but it's their right (although as I said in my original complaint, I think they should offer a refund when they decide to kick someone out of a part of the site such as the discussion forums...especially since there are no specific rules, just vague generalizations of "creating unity" and being respectful. Therefore, it all comes down to whether or not the moderators like a particular member...again, doesn't seem right to me.)

Sorry to go off on a bit of a tangent. I was satisfied with their response in terms of the fact that they seemed to recognize that I paid for a service and there is no reason to deny me the membership privilege of buying an advance ticket to a concert in my area, for example. Now that Prince is supposedly going to announce a US tour any day now, I'm realizing that in order to get good seats I'll have to sign up for the club again and pay the $25 fee again...I know they'll let me in then, but I don't think it's right that they get away with this. I feel that they are basically taking advantage of the fact that I am a huge fan of Prince's music (as they well know, because when I was allowed to post on their site I contributed to many threads regarding Prince's music and was generally enthusiastic...I've always loved the music.) They figure that if I really want the advance tickets, I'll sign up again, and they'll get another $25 out of me...and if I don't sign up again, too bad for me.

This is without a doubt the most disgustingly arrogant organization I've ever had interaction with. I have never filed a BBB complaint about any other company. I worked for years in the customer service departments of various financial companies, so I guess maybe I'm being unrealistic to expect their customer service reps (i.e. the moderators, who are anonymous and call themselves PaisleyPark1 through PaisleyPark9) to adhere to basic customer service principles.

I would like to request that the BBB ask the NPG Music Club why they did not do what they said in their response to my complaint. They repeatedly said in that communication that I was still able to access all other areas of the site. They also copied and pasted some sections of their Terms and Conditions, and I have reviewed those tonight...and I firmly do not believe that I have breached any of these (beyond the original allegedly "disrespectul" posts back in July '03 that caused them to kick me out of the forums. I haven't been IN the club since then, so how could I have done something to warrant being denied access to the pre-sale ticket opportunities that I paid for?). Essentially, the information that they told you is completely inconsistent with their actions since I discussed the ongoing complaint on the Org.

Of course I post descriptions of my correspondence with them (directly or indirectly, such as the response emailed to Mr. Hendrickson at the BBB) on Prince.org -- I feel that it would be wrong for me to not let people know what actually goes on. There are plenty of people who post on the Org who have generally positive comments about the Club...and there are also many people who have been kicked out of the discussion forums and tend to be a bit more realistic in terms of The Club. I feel that if the club wasn't so vague in terms of what type of actual "new music" it will provide for the paying customers, much of the ill will that the club has generated with many of its members would dissipate. Of course, since they don't offer refunds, I guess it is financially more advantageous for the Club to be as vague as possible.

I just reviewed the Terms and Conditions again, and the only rule that I can see that they could conceivably claim I broke is as follows:

"Use of the Club's Name Without Permission. The names "NPG Music Club" and "NPG", as well as the other names used by the Club, may not be used by you without the Club's written permission."

I suppose they could say that since I typed the words "NPG Music Club" on a public website, I violated copyright law...while I'm not a copyright lawyer, I'm fairly certain that a company does not have the right to tell a customer they are not allowed to discuss the level of customer service they received with other members and prospective members. I would be happy to forward you a copy of the full T&C agreement if that would be helpful - just let me know.

I apologize for the ridiculously long email...I have been meaning to send this for a couple weeks, but have not had time to sit down and go through it again. At this point it's more about the principle of the thing...it would certainly be easier to just pay another $25 and not have to worry about it...but $25 isn't free, and I'm just a regular guy who works 40 hours a week plus as much overtime as my agency allows - all that just to pay rent and utilities and student loans, etc. - and I will gladly spend money on Prince again when a concert or new CD is for sale, but I would rather not be ripped off by a company who claims that they believe in "Love4OneAnother."

I greatly appreciate your response and would be happy to clarify any of the facts in this email or the original complaint, # 57023295.

Thank you very much for all of your help,
Andrew Gadek
ajgadek@yahoo.com
1132 _____ Blvd
Columbus, OH 432xx

cc: info@npgmusicclub.com
cc: dhendrickson@bbbmnd.org

theblueangel said:

Way to go, Blue. I'm looking forward to PurplePisser No 9's pseudo-illiterate response.

That cllub is only good for getting tickets dude...

Do something else with your hard earned money.. Prince always has bad business practices .. its not secret.. crash n burn every time

For such a long letter, that is screamingly coherent!

Theblueangel i know your not going to like me saying this but people have still been having problems when the club On the 31st December everyone had there memberships extended for the coming year for free, maybe your password may not have been reset. If you have loging problems here is the email address login@npgmusicclub.com

Also a Microsoft security update has been causing people problems when they try and enter the club, try this address www.npgmusicclub.com/members

I hope this helps you and you get this resolved soon, now dont get angry with me or i will just have to use my on you

Katt, I ain't mad atcha! In fact, I really appreciate the information and suggestion....I had heard something about a Microsoft patch that was affecting people's ability to log in, but thought that you just had to click on the other link..;

Anyway, I'll definitely email that address and see what happens.

I don't think it's right that it's up to another member to be kind enough to offer advice about things like this....they have all my contact information, after all.

But yeah....I'd be happy to find out that I'm not gonna get fleeced out of another $25.

Thanks, Katt!!!

whats
that
song?
P
sings

none'yo
business

JC said:

stop

me

JC said:

JC, I've been meaning to ask you where you got that avatar from and who is it?

Of course!!


You sure aren't a copyright lawyer blueangel!

The Club's rule that you may not "use" the names "NPG Music Club" and "NPG", as well as the other names used by the Club, without the Club's written permission, is a ridiculous rule, not in line with the law, and unenforcable. Fact of the matter is that a name can't be copyrighted. If that would be the case NPG could sue me just for writing their name in this post. A name can however be trademarked (which is a different type of intellectual property right than copyright) . And the NPG names are trademarked. However, a trademark right only gives the owner of that trademark the right to prohibit the use of the name for commercial purposes. E.g. : one company can not use the trademarks of another on its own products without permission from the trademark owner.

So, NPG has no case against you based on trademark, unless you have used their names without their permission for commercial purposes.

They may have a case based on copyright violation when you have reproduced, publicly displayed and distributed copyrighted works from the NPGMC. Emails, forum posts and other texts are usually copyrighted. Doing that without permission risks copyright violation complaints and ultimately perhabs even a case. However, when you only cite these texts, name the source and use it for lawfull purposes they can't harm you. Besides, a court case over an email correspondence, without confidentiality value, is trivial and will likely be tossed out by a court. The BBB however may take those kind of actions in account when assessing the merit of your complaint. So watch what you do with texts coming from or written by the NPMGC (as I told you before).

btw: this is not legal advice!

Prior to the Microsoft "security update", you could write a URL to a password protected area of a web site that automatically included the username and password.

It would look something like this:

http://yourusername:yourpassword@www.website.com/protectedarea/

The NPGMC was using this method on some areas of their site. Thats why they had to create that second link at the entrance.

Blue... you RULE!!!

I love ya for that letter and the energy you put into the whole thing. Let's kick some PP's ass!

Wolf

katt said:

Katt my friend!

Are you saying that membership is now free for 2004?

1. Where is this stated? I haven't heard a thing.

2. What music have we received in 2004?

theblueangel said:

Dude, I love the points you make, but this response rambles! You might look like an obsessive!

ACK!! I've been exposed as the obsessive/compulsive weirdo that I am...back to my bat cave! ;

I think it's hilarious that I sat here and typed that whole thing out, heh. What a waste of time!

SquirrelMeat said:

PaisleyPark9 told us all:

U r a member 2day just the same as u were yesterday and just the same as u will b 2morrow. So in fact, yesterday, 2day, and 2morrow become the same day and the counting of time ceases 2 matter.

Check out the many threads at the club.
Who knows how long its going to last, just going to enjoy it while it lasts.
[This message was edited Wed Feb 18 14:33:48 2004 by katt]

katt said:

But then again the club didn't begin until April so is it really free? 1 year = $25 and it hasn't been a year yet.

katt said:

Tom said:

True True