imo it's a bit of an odd feature to find an invite-only bible study club on a music club website.
i find it odd that it's such an exclusive club too, by invite only and only for followers of jehovah god.
i find it odd because this eliminates most regular prince fans. loyal followers who have supported the artist in his endeavors through thick and thin.
you see at one time in his career prince symbolized intellectual, emotional and creative freedom. during those days he attracted a wide variety of people from all around the world because he was spreading a message everyone could take to heart
but now that he's narrowed down his vision to such a small part of the spectrum, most of us are left out in the cold at his concerts and at his club, where 'there ain't no room to disagree'
where are the buddhist studies? the hindu? the muslim? isn't there room for these people too? apparently not. room for their money and their membership fee, but not for them.
what a shame prince has lost the ability to celebrate the diversity of the world and its people and their thoughts, because imo that used to be one of his sources of strength.

What people seem to not realize or understand is the history within the bible. Through who's order and will is it that we have the things such as government, politics, etc? By what means are we breathing or existing or have the mental capacity to choose between right and wrong? People will have to ask themselves this question and make a choice on whichever way to follow. The bible gives great examples of secular history from the dawn of the Egyptian political system down to our very day! So to believe in the bible is to believe in governmental rule. Just as people are voting for a man to lead them, we are voting in the person Jesus who has been resurrected and has ascended into heaven. We believe in order, rules and regulations set forth by the commandments of the bible. The bible promises no more death, war, mourning, nor outcry of pain once the birth of the kingdom reaches the earth. What "man" can provide that may I ask? This topic is so off subject to the original post that I would say another thread should be started to continue in it.

The only reason why I mention black and white is because that Prince now is a practicing Jehovah's witness and that is how we see certain issues due to scriptural teaching. Once again people instead of "asking" they are "assuming" that they already know our beliefs in great detail. Far be it from us to tell someone what or who to believe in unless someone is truly interested. We are glad to share or explain our thoughts but many times the arguments get heated because of the above statement... People don't care or give a rat's "blank" about it! That is why I originally stated that had "I" been Prince I would have kept my beliefs "seperate" so to speak. Not out of shame but out of confusion. People on the org get bits and piece's of J.W. belief when it usually could take years of study to really understand. There is no way to understand the reasonings or logic on "the org". Trust me when I say that. Since people had followed every Prince move and step they of course still want to follow him. Continually I state that this is wrong.

I was a Prince fan prior to him being a witness and had not one "complaint" or gripe! Nor was I bitter at his choices in women, sex, religion, or whatever! I could care less if he was Mormon, Buddist, Catholic, Omish, etc! I just loved to hear or listen to his music. If some blatantly sexual song came on I usually turned it off! Usually! So why in the world are people tripping now?? I thought Prince was bi-sexual and all that other jazz but I could care less because it did not effect me! His lyrics were way out of line in some religious references but I could care less because I did not follow him. I listened to "the Music". And if I didn't like a particular album I did not purchase it! What is the freakin' deal folks? The former things that Prince sang about were way more dangerous to people and children in this world full of diesese's and AIDS then the things he now sings about.

XxAxX said:

That statement I find offensive! This political system that we have discriminates against my race daily! And had my race in bondage for years! It has oppressed and literally killed my relatives. My race doesn't even know it's origin due to a lot of the slave trade. Yes, certain things have changed but not that much! I am "still" discriminated against as a black male daily. I am "still" called nigger on the phone at my job when they hear the tone and inflection in my voice. Still followed and harrassed by the police. Cruelty abounds in this system and has always oppressed one race or another, so I will not just leave it with African Americans. This goes for racial oppression as a whole. I see affluent whites calling people from India "dot heads" and Muslims "terrorists"! And it is not going to stop! People are getting worse as with morality and everything else. When Jesus was on earth he stated to "pay Ceasars things to Ceasar and God's things to God." So he respected the government and did not break the laws or rules and regulations given by it unless of course it goes against the commandments of the bible such as "killing your fellow human being". That in itself is Satanic! Oh, I still dig u xxaxx but just speaking my mind.

christians should vote. if christians don't vote they will have no legal or political say. so, if one day your christian rights are stripped away it will be in part due to your lack of involvement in politics. if you believe god will look after you here on earth, then why don't you believe that god will send people to watch after you? jesus was incredibly political. everything he said, while obviously spiritual, was very political. i suggest you go back and read acts, romans, and the gospels all over again. this time without someone standing behind you telling you what it means. pray to god for understanding and clarity and then read...alone, by yourself.

basically when a christian doesn't vote for someone of christian values, the christian who didn't vote just made it that much easier to get a non christian in office.
[This message was edited Thu Jan 22 21:07:18 PST 2004 by SassyBritches]

SassyBritches said:

Christians have been voting for years. We elect Jesus as our King. And that ideology that someone is telling me what to say is idiotic. Jesus ran away when they tried to make him king of Rome. What does the "lords prayer" state again? Maybe a further study in scripture is needed on your part. I am not here to teach or defend my beliefs. Believe what you wish just as I will do the same. Resepect is and should be the motto always.

jojofran said:

but aren't christians supposed to represent God and christ on earth? and by representing, shouldn't we include them in every aspect of life? politics are a pat of human life, whether you take part in them or not. if you opt out you are simply letting another man rule over you. that is your political choice. and whether or not you see that as a political choice is irrelevant. it is your political option. however, if you participate in the electoral system, you can vote for jesus if you want to. you can vote for anyone who holds christian values thus including the Word in that part of your life.

most importantly there is nothing, anywhere at all, in the bible that suggests refraining from politics. perhaps your idea of modern politics is not the depiction of politics in the bible and maybe that is what's misleading you. if you can find me a verse (that is not being taken out of context) that tells me to refrain from voting, i will re-think my whole position.
[This message was edited Fri Jan 23 12:11:47 PST 2004 by SassyBritches]

enjoyniki said:

I want to go! Invite me!

I'm imagining the stoning scene from Life of Brian. . .Prince: "c'mon, y'all. . .I've invited the athiest poly queer chick from the org. . .stones are just $25 per bag. . ."

jojofran said:

i dig you too jojo. and it's okay if you speak out to me. i can take it and i like that we can argue a bit without hating. please remember, if i didn't dig you i wouldn't spend so muich time arguing with you. you see, i really feel that your church is wrong about a LOT of things and i feel that your mistake in following doctrines that are so wrong will harm you in the long run. it might even kill you, spiritually, imo

we've discussed other aspects of the JW doctrine in the past (disfellowshipping, no blood trasnsfusions, female subordination, etc.) and about these things we do not agree. that's okay. please understand that i feel as though i must 'witness' to you in an attempt to open your heart and help you see truth for your own sake.

about the not voting thing - hey i understand your race has suffered, mine has too. it is NOT a perfect system. but that does not give us an excuse to abdicate our responsibility to vote. we have a duty, whether we like it or not, to participate and to make sacrifices for what we believe in. i have no respect for people who sit around and 'watch' as things 'happen' to them. these people should be ashamed for their lack of participation, imo

your church has reaped the benefits of those who fought for freedom in the political arena. how hypocritical of the watchtower society to tell its followers to withdraw.. to turn its back on that which helped it grow.

hey jojo i'm truly not baiting - i just think that parts of the doctrine you adhere to is as wrong as can be and dangerous to you and the ones you love for that reason

ps: have a good day dear sorry to rile you but please THINK about it

Nowhere on the site does it say that only JWs would be invited to this study, IF it happens. It is Prince we're talking about. Jojo, I have much respect for you and those of your faith. I've PM'd Mr7 on a few occassions with questions and he has been very insightful. I wish people would ask questions instead of assuming things all the time. BUT, one of the sticking points for me is the non-participation of people of your faith in the political system. How do you expect to help eliminate racism in this country if you are not political?

beautifulone7 said:

I'm not sure about Eisenhower. I think what I heard was that he was a JW as a child, but not for very long. I don't know for sure.
For the record, the reason most people in the U.S. have freedom of religion is BECAUSE of JWs. JWs have won more precedent-setting court cases in this regard than anyone else I've ever heard of. That's where we've done the work to preserve our freedoms. Since you have no belief in the scriptures, a lot of what JWs do is not going to make sense to you. That's because we truly put our faith in God. And trust me, nobody's twiddling their tumbs waiting on God's Kingdom. Many JWs I know are also the busiest people I know . Busy trying to help others. Trying to teach others, teach their children, encourage others, feed others, LOVE others...you get the picture .
I realize we disagree here, but keep in mind that JWs are not blind or ignorant to what's going on in the world.
The big difference between you and I lies in our belief system. I, along with many other JWs know that there are many positive, good-hearted people in the political world who want to make things better for everyone. But no imperfect human can do that. Especially with a limited life span and constant changes in people's opinions toward life. JWs simply believe that the only ones who can bring a lasting solution to mankind's problems are Jehovah God and his son, Christ Jesus.

OdysseyMiles said:

I think you just answered my questions. Nevermind.

TheOrgerFormerlyKnownAs said:

Cool!

SassyBritches said:

wasn't jesus was a political activist himself?

OdysseyMiles said:[quote]

beautifulone7 said:

Freedom of religion is guaranteed in the first amendment which was adopted over 100 years before JW's came into existence. I'm no expert on constitutional law but who are you comparing JW's too in terms of winning more "precedent-setting court cases"? This seems like a monumental task in terms of gathering information regarding court cases from the local to national level in city, state and federal courts, etc. If JW's gather that information, like any other group it wouldn't surprise me if the statistics put them at the forefront. But please don't provide the statistics because I really don't care and won't be frequenting this thread anymore.



That's a pretty bold and arrogant statement and why I tire of talking with JW's. Did I say I have no belief in the Scriptures? And for the 500th time, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH MY FAITH IN GOD? The Biblical Scriptures ARE NOT the only way to know God. God reveals itself to humans time and time again and this has been recorded over and over which is why we have different religions. There are MANY paths to the TRUTH.

I have a different interpretation of the word belief. I don't take the Scriptures literally so I guess in your world that means I don't believe them word for word. How can you quote a word or words that were spoken thousands of years ago as fact? Do you remember word for word what you said 2 weeks, 2 years or 20 years ago? I don't think so. So how can you believe 2000 years ago words? It is all INTERPRETATION. The society of Biblical times was set up differently, words and concepts they used do not even exist in the English language so any "accurate translation" can only be "accurate" based upon the ideals of the interpreter. Therefore, my "belief" in the Bible lies in the interpretation of the words on a metaphysical level, no different really than the Qu'Ran, Bhagavad Gita, writings of Native American spiritual leaders, etc. THEY ARE ALL THE SAME. There are certain universal truths that appear time and time again so the fact that I don't "believe" in the Scriptures doesn't make me any less of a person, as the tone of your post implies.

Finally, faith in a supreme power has nothing to do with the words of man. Didn't you say man was imperfect? If so, how can you put faith in the Bible? The Bible was written by men, you know.



I meant twiddling their thumbs in terms of not actively participating in the political process. Lots of people help, teach, encourage, feed and love others while still actively participating in formation and implementation of the very laws that govern how they live. Please do not attempt to put JW's on some pedestal in this regard.



I did not mean to imply that they were.



Well if you understand our belief system is different, why do you and all JW's persist in the fact that your's is right? I don't beleive man is imperfect because man was made in the image and likeness of God and God is only good. End of story.



God is within you as is the Christ presence. All you have to do is be open to that.

And with that...goodnite folks.
[This message was edited Fri Jan 23 11:54:52 PST 2004 by beautifulone7]

XxAxX said:

jesus was one of the biggest political activists EVER. that's why i don't get groups of christians who try to alter the bible's words so that it excludes participation in government. there is nothing in the bible that suggests refraining from involvement in the political world we live in. we are supposed to support people of our faith in all ways. the only way one can defend this position is by taking things out of context and changing the words. that is the only way. period.

theblueangel said:

My new FAVORITE .Orger!!! A+++

Okay, firstly I would like to say that I am sorry for possibly sounding angry yesterday. I was truthfully a little flustered and tired after work. Yeah I got called a racial "slur" yesterday at the job and it incenses me that in 2004 some folks are still calling my people "ni**er". Anyway, I am going to try to make it a little clearer in respects to government. When Jesus was tempted by Satan while he was on earth the last temptation he used against him was to bow down and do an "act of worship" to him and he would give him what?...

ALL THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD SINCE THEY WERE IN FACT GIVEN TO HIM. Matt 4:8 thru 10

That being said, all the kingdoms or governments or powers that be are being invisibly ran by the unseen rulers of the world Satan and his demons. Satan stated that he would give Jesus those governments to mislead him off of his path. Did not Satan enter into Judas at the "last supper"? Jesus knew this but the disciples did not. Satan was actively plotting or seeking to destroy the future king long ago and probably thought he suceeded when Jesus died. Jehovah already had a plan for his son to be King of his "own" kingdom in due time. You see it takes a lot of knowledge and deep meditation on what is going on. The reality is not visible to the human eye just as we cannot see the air or wind. They are spirit creatures that have been cast out of heaven, 1/3rd of the heavens mind you for their rebellion against Jehovah god.

Many people do not get the realization of this and think that a man can change the world or society. Politicians are not all bad. Some truly want to make things better. Trust me we read up on a lot of things and are glued to everything that happens within society. Satan has been, as the bible puts it, "misleading the entire earth". So that being said or written we are to be careful about being drifted into thinking that man can change things in which ultimately means.. "Satan can change things" since the scriptures did point out vividly that he controls all of the kingdoms of the world. The bible also states that "mankind is not meant to lead his own footsteps". So this is a biblical teaching. J.W.'s didn't make this rule up for it's followers. Everyone can embrace these teachings and study them.

XxAxX said:

Xxaxx, one thing that I can tell about you is that you are sincere. And I love that, I absoloutely do. I respect and understand your concern and worry and know that it is genuine and out of love. That is why I do listen to your words and put myself in your shoes, pumps, whatever.. Thank you for your thoughts, however I will say this that prior to me being J.W. I was a lot of things. You name it and I was probably in it or studying it some way, shape or form. I "still" am studying other philosophy's to understand other peoples perceptions and beliefs. This along with prayer has kept me "open" and not closed-minded. The bible says to "search" 1 Peter 1:10. I never take anything as absoloute truth without thoroughly researching and praying for understanding. J.W.s will all tell you to search for "yourselves" and study secular history before making a dedication.

Xxaxx we go through the same problems everyone else does on this planet. From the bills to relationship issues, sickness, heartache, depression, etc. We just try to put absoloute faith in God and his kingdom first. Granted we all are not successful and stumble and fall, some fall harder than others, but the key is to get back up and try again. And as you can see I will discuss my belief if people truly ask about them in sincerity. If a Muslim were to discuss their beliefs I would ask them questions or that of anyone else because I am thirsty for knowledge on a whole lot of issues. I like the Org for that aspect! Take away the bickering and arguing and you got a nice group of folk here! Love ya!

you are in no way worshipping someone simply because you voted them into office. you are not claiming this person as your god. when you have a leader in the kingdom hall, are you worshipping that person? no, they simply lead the group. at work, you have a supervisor. do you worship that supervisor? no, but they lead the way (hopefully, lol). there are politics involved in how your kingdom hall elder was chosen. there are politics involved in how that supervisor was chosen. there are politics involved in how our president (and senate, house, mayors, etc.) is chosen, also.

SassyBritches said:

Sassy, think for a minute. Jesus is not almighty God, he is an appointed king of the most high! We do not worship Jesus! We worship Jehovah God. It says in the bible to keep on seeking the kingdom of God, not the kingdom of man. Ugh! Re-read the things I stated and comment on them if you would. That is the main reason people are confused. Bouncing around from this to that. You have to first let one thought sink in before dealing with another.
[This message was edited Fri Jan 23 19:04:32 PST 2004 by jojofran]

jojofran said:

but in the kingdom of god there is an hierarchy just as there should b here on earth. once the paradise is at hand, there will be no need for government because we will finally liv eby a theocratic order. but, right now, we need a man made government. anything else would be anarchy. surely, god does not want this. if there needs to be a man made government, shouldn't the One who made man be represented in it? if christians don't partake in this government, who do you think will?

SassyBritches said:

Since the bible says the ruler of the world is Satan and even Satan himself told Jesus that he has the power over the kingdoms of the world, why would you vote for any indiviual who would be invisibly influenced by such power? The bible states:

Ephesians 6:12 We have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.

jojofran said

a wrestling? meaning a fighting back against the wicked spirit forces?

is the doctrine of turning one's back on the process of politics another one of charles taze russell's inspired interpretations? because how else could anyone who has studied the bible could ever in a million years fail to understand the example jesus himself set...

jojo, jesus himself took part in the political process and died for what he believed in. he died fighting against the 'wicked spirit forces'. imo the jehovah's witnesses have 'fallen for' satan's lies about having power over this domain and have given up the good fight before it has begun
[This message was edited Sat Jan 24 14:07:01 PST 2004 by XxAxX]

hehehe. moderators gonna have to move this discussion into the p&r forum. ooops. sorry Dansa. . .

KingSausage said:

I know, he's tha shizzle fo' rizzle.

<---still the founder and president of the BlueAngel Asslicker Association

XxAxX said:

Hmmm, or Xxaxx it could be the other way around. Some, in my opinion have got caught up in a web of deceit and lies about J.W.'s. Who were they taught by? Why do these certain people spend so much time trying to MIS-inform folk? When I left my former religion or religion's I just prayed for them to find the "truth" as I have. No bitter feelings. I didn't down play my old pastor or reverends. That is for God to decide or judge. That is like me and you having a disagreement and everytime someone mentioned "Xxaxx" I would verbally assault you and tell them of "my" displeasure with you. That is nutz! That would be a personal vendetta true? Well the same is with folk that are anti-J.W. If you don't believe what we say then hey, keep it between you and the "reason" why you have a beef.

But the things you write honestly shock me. Someone has to be telling a lie and someone has to be telling the truth. Our job as indiviuals is to personally make the decision for ourselves who is being deceitful by "usage" of the scriptures and PRAYER, not by battling back and forth. You see, when you are not affiliated with something and someone tells you a lie prior to "researching" yourself you are bound to be hesitant because of the fear factor involved. Who on this earth wants to be "tricked" or "fooled" into believing in something?? NOONE! That is why you can never go wrong with prayer to the Almighty when searching. Pray that he shows you the way, pray that you are not deceived, and pray that the reason you wish to know because you want to follow the truth. Trust no human, including myself, without prayer to God. Okay? Holla.


P.S. Jesus ran away when the people tried to make him king. He stated his kingdome was no part of this world.

i can see your point jojo. i don't believe the things i've said are shocking or are lies but i am sorry if i hurt your feelings or made it seem like i'm 'attacking' you. i admit i have negative feelings toward parts of the JW doctrine but that's because i honestly believe certain aspects (NOT all) of it are unhealthy for its followers.

you see i've researched the topic and i'm aware that this doctrine was in large part created by a man who lied about his ability to translate hebrew (lied under oath on the bible in fact) and to me it's 'shocking' that anyone would follow his 'new translation'. especially about something so vital as voting. you see, abstention from politics is not a mainstream christian concept.

in the end i do respect your right to do as you please even if i can't help wishing that you'd cast your vote for a candidate you feel will help the world. we need all the help we can get, jojo. these are desperate hours. but if you choose not to as a matter of principle that's your prerogative. i guess the rest of us will have to vote twice to make up for that

anyway i guess i better stop arguing this point. i risk hurting your feelings even more, which i really don't want to do, and anyway my argument doesn't have much to do with the NPGMC bible study club does it? talk about jacking a thread!

let me know if the NPGMC bible study club ever changes its name to 'spiritual' study club and includes followers of the qur'an, the talmud, the ramayana, the bahagavadgita, the kabbala, etc. for open discussions of spirituality. i know that's unlikely to happen in this phase of prince's life but i can dream anyway . . .

jojofran said:

yes, and at that time, the governments were not monotheistic. that verse does not support your claims that we need to refrain from politics. if anything, it says just the reverse. it states that we are in a battle of good and evil. in order to win the battle, one must fight the battle. getting anti-christs out of governing offices is a start. but in order to get them out, we must put christians in. if christians don't vote how will this happen? once again, show me something in scripture that clearly states...without having to add, assume or switch words around...that we should not partake in a poltical system.

SassyBritches said:

All it takes is a little thought and you have your answers to your own questions. Listen, I am not here to try to convince you. I can try to explain, but if your mind is already made up to believe your theory then good for you. Pray to God to show you the answer or to give you a better understanding then me. The bible has foretold of the destruction of the governments of the world by the "kingdom of God". I don't twist the scriptures at all. Read the prophecy of Daniel and it will tell you of the world powers from Egypt down until our time. It will state that the kingdom of God will "crush" the kingdoms of the world. So now, which kingdom of the world do you want to advocate or vote for prior to it's being crushed or destroyed by God?

jojofran said:

i absolutely agree that it only takes a little thought. the kingdoms of the world will be crushed, i know. but how? what is the description in daniel? this is important. and, just to clarify once more, if i am trying to vote for the christian politician...the one who supports christian ideals...then i AM advocating God's kingdom. i think you're missing that HUGE point. the bible doesn't tell us to refrain from government. your interpretation of what is written may suggest that but you can't get to that conclusion unless someone tells you that that is what it means. if you simply read the words (without reliance on someone else's interpretation) than you can understand that there is no mention of refraining from poltical activity.

it was nice discussing with you but i can not continue to repeat myself. i'm glad we had the chance to discuss this.