"My Father's gay" -George Costanza (Seinfeld)

Universaluv said:

Really, how? We are talking about a group of people who are following a certain way of thinking based on a scripture? + does it surprise you that the JW's would be against Gay Marriages? Please....I am happy our country (Canada) is following in the footsteps of liberal nations like The Netherlands....no I am not Gay, but am for people's right's.
[This message was edited Tue Sep 9 8:48:36 PDT 2003 by nunatak]

You are such a liar, papercrayons. Just because you can't chat over there any more you come over here and post lies? Since when does asking a question like "Gay marriage... thoughts?" make them anti gay? I chat over there all the time and have been there a lot when they talk about this and such topics and never once did any Paisley Park name say anything against anyone gay, white, black, Jewish or anything else. In fact, they always say everyone is welcome. It's just people like you who are mad that they got banned that make up stuff like this. Shame on you.

I would hope Prince & the NPGMC are not against homosexuals, but the faith he apparently follows is not to big on it. I can only imagine how many Gay friends Prince has from over the years...He must still have a few of them left in his circle?

nunatak said:

The topic is about whether these particular chat topics in the NPGMC are "anti-gay". Your post was a more general discussion about the doctrine of the JWs regarding homosexuality.

While I realize that there is at least a tenuous relationship between the two, your post goes off on a tangent, imo. Basically, I don't hold the NPGMC responsible for what is posted on the JW website.

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[This message was edited Tue Sep 9 8:58:52 PDT 2003 by Universaluv]

Sorry about that, didn't mean to get carried away. But the roots of these "POSSIBLE" views are there, I guess? Oh wll, I say live & let live...Let's hope being open minded and free thinking doesn't mean have a fence around it.

I've visited the club a couple of times since this thread popped up, and kept an eye out for any alleged homophobic or "inflammatory" comments - I found one very queer-friendly thread in the Knowledge forum, with only one comment that wasn't gay-friendly (and even though I seriously disagree with what the person said, I applaud their candor and willingness to dialog).

I would much rather someone come out and dispense an honest viewpoint that most of us would find ugly and intolerant, than fake the funk by going along with what everyone else is saying because they're afraid of being criticized. How else do you learn other than by putting your thoughts out there and challenging your worldview?






the "universaluv saved my life" edit
[This message was edited Tue Sep 9 11:40:20 PDT 2003 by Anxiety]

when has religion done any good?

goddamn opportunistic bullshit!!!

sorry for my reply, I've been contemplating a lot on religion lately, and after reading books like The Clash of Civilisations by Tariq Ali, A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn and Earth Is More Beautiful than Paradise by Khaled al-Berry, I changed my entire view on religion.

I grew up in a catholic family, but my parents weren't really practicing. These books have changed me into an agnost.

When I see the news, when I watch what's happening in Israel in the name of Jahweh/Allah, in India and Pakistan (read also Ali, it's mind-absorbing!), when I read or listen to speeches of George W. Bush, it's SICKENING. It's all in the name of God.

We don't even know who he is, and we can never possitively be sure that he exists, so why bother?! Jews and Moslims are slaughtering each other, and for what? They're worshipping the same damn God!! Jews grow up with the idea that they are the chosen people, that they are in fact superior to the rest. What the fuck? Jesus, who was a Jew, got prosecuted thx to Jews, who didn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah. This led Christians into hating Jews. Moslims, who do recognize Jesus (albeit as merely a prophet), follow another prophet, Mohammed, not recognized by Christians or Jews, who supposedly heard the commandments or whatever from Gabriel. One of the things Allah told Mohammed is that he and only he can have as much pussy as he wants to, the rest has to be monogamous.

Pakistan and India used to be a haven of peace, until a dude named Mohammes Ali Jinnah got the bright idea of creating a state for only muslims. The massacres on hindoes followed shortly after.

The Ottoman Empire, stretching from Egypt to the outskirts of Vienna, used to be a place of peace, prosperity and tolerance. The moslim majority in Palestine lived happily with Christian and Jewish minorities.

But in the name of God, we now have a relgious state, Israel, with a fascist policy of apartheid towards Palestinians... financed by Washington. Why? Because religious fanatics in the US await the building of the 4the temple and the coming of the Second Messiah (for the Jews the 1st!).

All because of the goddamned religion! I get mere sick by watching television on a Sunday morning with people talking about what's happening in the world, who's suffering, etc etc, followed by refering to Marcus chapter this or Psalms chapter that and stating them as a law and a scientific truth! It's sickening to me.

If there is a God, we will NEVER EVER pPOSITIVELY know!!! Why? Because our minds aren't made to grasp it. (Like we can't explain where the universe ends... or starts for that matter.) We can't know, so why should we?

As an agnost, I do believe in the good in innocent people (look at children), the good in life (the good character of most dogs, and other animals), and the mistery of life (why do we love?...) I will NEVER become an atheist, because as much as I am sure we can't know anything about God, I know we can't positively know that there isn't a god. But if there IS, I'm sure this world has not become the way he wanted it. Like Nietzsche said: "God is dead, and you have killed him!"

I only know that I will never follow dogmatic bullshit. I will only love life and respect life.

And if Prince has really become a fundamentalist fascist, I will follow the example of my gay org-buddies and "jump the boat".

"The world only goes forward because of those who oppose it." - Goethe.

"Pakistan and India used to be a haven of peace, until a dude named Mohammes Ali Jinnah got the bright idea of creating a state for only muslims. The massacres on hindoes followed shortly after."

Actually the British rulers also insighted the partition of India.

deepabove said:

Thats not true.

katt said:

Well said

Ok. Took some time but by now I read the whole thread

The central question:

PaperCrayons said:


Well, I think they are doing it _very_ intelligently. It's kind of the way a psychiatrist guides you through a therapy: He must not openly display his true objectives. He offers the right questions to enable _you_ to "find" the answer. Doing so, the conclusion you have come to will be anchored much deeper.

Universaluv:


beautifulone7:


beautifulone7, you're right. To Universaluv: They could start discussions and launch chat topics by stating their objectives and giving some sensitive context explaining the question as well as their intentions. Instead the NPGMC omits the entire context. This doesn't shed any light but renders it's more and more obscure.

And even more...

theblueangel:


(btw...hi, blue! )

Yes, that's a fact. Same with critical remarks directed at Princely musicians vs. "unholy" musicians like Marilyn Manson. Obviously ironical remarks directed, for example, towards Larry G were deleted. A thread which included (besides positive and objective posts) numerous serious verbal attacks towards MM stayed entirely untouched. Welcome to the purple "unity".

m3taverse:




m3taverse, this is just what I assumed and thought. The key people administrating the site most obviously are JWs. An exception to this is pixius - the technical support guy from the designer's side (at least one person who kept his/her humour).

lovebird:


Yep. It's downright sad. It's sad that Prince has people like them on his payroll. But did you ever see Prince tolerate people around him he's not fully happy with? It's Prince who has to open his eyes.

So I don't think the question is if they (the JW-PP bunch) are "Gay Haters". The subject of matter is, they are on their quest to influence people. It's their mission. And who could be better suited than a highly acclaimed artist, known to the whole world? Even better, an artist who converted from the baddest of the bad to a baptized JW? With followers known for their loyalty? The instrument: A website. Accessible worldwide - if you paid the fee... by which they get your complete personal data record, address & credit card included.

It's only a guess... but who knows?

Anxiety:


Definitely right. Sometimes it reminds me of some kind of a sect (as which JWs are listed in Germany). You don't know what you sign there. You assume it's music and things like that you'll get... but that's the least. You don't know whom you give your personal data to - as long as you do not read several threads on here. Actually, would I have known about how dense the whole JW thing got... I would NOT have become a member.

Anxiety:


Another bunch of points to you, Anxiety. Some even do... though their real opinion is hidden even to themselves by the mask of religion. I remember one thread on NPGMC where a member was quite desperate because of the dilemma rousing from him being gay and his religious believes. Most people encouraged him to live his sexuality. Yet, one member (still know his/her name) said something like: "Well, it's your decision. And, for sure, I am not the one to judge anyone because of his sexuality. The day will come you will have to confess to Him."

That's the real sensitive and caring "love4oneanother" I expect in religious terms from (some) NPGMC (members, that is). I never experienced it explicitly from staff members. Yet, something tells me I could be even surprised how things really are.

Wolf

(hm, this was my very first _looong_ post on here!)
(hey, stymie! sorry - you're almost the only one I did NOT quote... )

Thank U wsenges for taking the time to read this post and posting your very much insightful response.

if The NPGMC are not honest with there true intentions WHO are they?

"The devil will come dress as light"- A paisleypark moderator

beautifulone7 said:

I guess I'm confused at why raising a "question" expresses a lack of tolerance. Raising a question is asking for feedback from others rather than the other way around.

AnimalKingdom said:

I think the point they're trying to make is that there aren't any questions about topics like "What does the Bible say about heterosexual marriage?" By drawing attention to the gays and lesbians in such a way as to bring them and only them up as a topic for discussion, it hints strongly of an intolerance for those groups.

And why are you surprised? You know for a fact that Prince is the same man who chastised a woman for wearing a skirt he thought was too short. He's become a prude. If his new bride gets any sex in between Bible study sessions, it's probably only missionary position and then back to the scriptures.

doomboogie said:

I can turn on CNN and see a debate about whether gay marriage should be legalized or whether homosexual bishops should be appointed. These are current affairs that are in the news. Heterosexual marriage is not. Encouraging discussion about current affairs, even those that involve homosexuals, doesn't seem to automatically equate to homophobia imo.

Universaluv said:

By drawing attention to it at all, you are casting it as abnormal behavior. Encouraging discussion on the censorship-prone NGPMC site? You've got to be kidding, right?

doomboogie said:

Attention has already been drawn to it. It's not like noone was talking about the recently appointed gay Bishop or the recent court decision regarding gay marriage. People are talking about and debating these subjects all over the place. Heck there is a serious discussion about amending the U.S. Constitution to prevent gay marriage. Should people just bury their heads and pretend its not an issue so as not to possibly imply something abnormal? You'll find yourself with an amended Constitution with that attitude.

Personally, when it comes to controversial subjects I advocate more discussion rather than less, even on the NPGMC.


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[This message was edited Wed Sep 10 11:55:51 PDT 2003 by Universaluv]

Anxiety said:

Here's the deal ... I think you could enter as a gay person, but naturally your ambition must be to study God's ways and work to live your life accordingly…
Don't expect JWs to compromise on their premise that the Bible is God's manual for the universe, word for word.

As for other faiths, or other anything for that matter... My impression is that the JW denomination has developed, into its dogma, mechanisms for protection against detraction and "unbalance".
These mechanisms on the one hand consist of the Bible "prophesizing" that you will be challenged in your faith by "apostates" (thereby realizing the effect that each challenge has the potential of re-enforcing the faith), and on the other it offers ways to separate oneself from all that might detract... JWs can be "shunned" if they act against God and his rules (ignored, even by JW family and friends), higher education for JW children is discouraged, "no one man can be ruler" so all government institutions are a falsehood and likely the work of the devil, so of course they don't vote and limit their exposure to media relaying false messages. Etc. I don't know enough about this, but I think JWs see themselves, at least in aspects, as separated from society at large.

Anyways, I don’t foresee JWs warming up to the Gay-JW-is-OK concept any time soon.

... How is that when we join a internet community regarding Prince And the New Power Generation's Music, we get bomb barded with the idea's and rituals of a piticular religous organization. How is it that the points and views of The NPGMC, which is designed to supply music and information on Prince & THE NPG for the FANS, how and why has it become a vessal for the Jahovah's Witness preaching and practices. and back to the main subject... and if they want to have discussion on serious related issues why don't they have topics regarding how to prevent child abuse, drug abuse, homelessness, why do they consistantly make a point out of pointing out Homosexuals, and also in the NEWS section when they placed a news item regarding Beyounce saying that she was hot looking like Tina Turner and that she should hook up with IKE what kind of mentallity is that. isn't Ike the man who beat the shit out of Tina Turner. Are they Saying that Because Beyounce looks like Tina Turner she should get the shit beat out of her like Tina Turner?

Is Prince Really Dead 2 Us and his Image and body of work (execpt that which is of course owned by TIME WARNER)
now property of a pictular religous organization, that has no tolerance for gays lesibian, and bisexuals and all others that are not following conventional relationship practices?
[This message was edited Wed Sep 10 13:21:06 PDT 2003 by sexaftertaste]

Universaluv said:

Why is attention being drawn to it on Prince's site in the first place? Isn't it supposed to be a music club? Did you really pay $25 to discuss and debate the "right" type of sexuality and have your comments deleted if they aren't in line with what Prince and his people think (although from your point of view here, I'm guessing you're in no danger of that)?

Prince's new approach to life clearly has a religious and narrow minded slant on many issues, homosexuality looks like it's on that list. ITt's also clear that JWs are in no way gay-friendly. Watch and see as other similar issues are brought up for discussion just to see how much things have changed at Church Paisley.

Prince doesn't "run" that site...ah-hem...

doomboogie said:

Whether or not the NPGMC should have chat topics about things other than music is another issue entirely, imho. They do. The question was whether some of these subjects were homophobic.

You really are guessing about my views. I haven't offered my views on "the right type of sexuality" either here or on the NPGMC. And not that it matters, but I've made more than a few patently sacrilegious comments in the NPGMC chat without incident.

I suppose that I naively responded to the subject of the thread. Whether the NPGMC has posted homophobic chat topics as per the three examples cited.
My mistake.


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[This message was edited Wed Sep 10 15:23:11 PDT 2003 by Universaluv]

Rob Halford Vs. Prince..10 rounds? Anyone?

Universaluv said:

And then, why does something that's normal for someone else have to become a political, religious, or moral issue for Prince and his zealots?

June19 said:

if Prince doesn't run that site and the Jehovah Witness do... then are we not donating $25 dollar to a church to be apart of it congregation.. and if so isn't that false advertising. and isn't false advertising ILLEGAL.

and if we are now apart of that congregation, because we willfully join believing it was a music club, supplying them our names and address's along with credit card info.. is that info being enter into some data base that keeps us on file as members of this religion. making there existance more "creditable" because we are expanding there congregation by willing joining into there organization.

if i remember someone said something about this a few months ago as a what if question, being deleted because it seem to far fetch.

One more thing... IF it is true that The NPGMC is a Religious Forum and U are consider a member.. How do U feel about being part of a Organization that does preach the abomination of HOMOSexuals, Lesbian, & BiSexauls. Amagine if u are one of these mentioned and u find out that u are on a data base where it says that u are affilated with Anti-Gay Rights. Doesn't that make a Hyprocrite out of U?

thats like being on trial for a hate crime against a gay and a U say that u don't hate gays and that u are gay and then the prosicuting attorney shows papers that says that u actually belong to a group that practice the abonination of gays... so how can u be gay and be apart of a group that practice's the abonination of gays, there for causing u to be convicted of a crime by the misleadings of an organization that u believe to be one thing yet turns out to be another. Are u a hyprocrite or are u a victim of a more serious crime.
[This message was edited Wed Sep 10 16:25:31 PDT 2003 by sexaftertaste]

doomboogie said:

I guess in a perfect world everyone would tolerate everyone else's lifestyle. Unfortunately, I don't think that's the world we live in yet.

Like it or not, the issues originally brought up in this thread are still a source of considerable political, religious and moral discord in our society at large. One way of dealing with the intolerance that still exists is to get people with different viewpoints talking to each other. That doesn't guarantee that everyone will become more enlightened, but, imo, it's a start.

Kind of like how you and I are having this discussion. Or do you disagree?


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[This message was edited Wed Sep 10 22:41:49 PDT 2003 by Universaluv]

Universaluv said:

I have to say that this is one of the best threads I have seen on this site. Too bad such a conversation could not take place over there.

I have to say that I'm beginning to consider the club boards in context of their limitations, and the fact that however censored it is now, it's liable to become even moreso tomorrow.

Prince is an insecure control freak, and his winged monkeys get off on what little bit of authority they're granted as purple cyber-bouncers.

If I wanna know where there's gonna be an event where I can hang out with alla ya, the club is great for that. New product? Okay, I'll hang there. Every once in a while I might even put some effort into a conversation thread. But I never expect much more from the club than perhaps the opportunity of giving the man some of my money in exchange for something that MIGHT be semi-cool.

Meanwhile, if a man who used to wear lip gloss and rouge with his little police cap wants to tell me about my sexuality, I'll be listening...and waiting for the punchline.