Well I'm certainly not gay,lesbian or bisexual but I find such topics as "What do the Scriptures say about Homosexuality" and "Gay Marriage" rude and and insulting to such individuals. They express a lack of tolerance and are serve absolutely no purpose on a close-minded site like the NPGMC. I could not even believe such a topic was put up in the chat (again) and then in the forums (again) and expressed my thoughts accordingly. At this point in the year, considering all the Bible quote that have been rained down upon us, I'm wondering are such topics created to deliberately insult and piss people off to the point that they leave the club? No rational conversation will be had, but I don't think that means NPGMC is against GLB's, just that they don't tolerate them very well.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

i don't really know if i would or not. would have to cross that bridge when i came to it, but i hope i never have to.

beautifulone7 said:

i am really not one of those "either you are for us or against us" people, but i do think that there is a tremendous differeance between allowing and encouraging decidedly negative discussions to go on and just tolerating alterante sexuality.

i really have no problem if people don't agre with my life, they are free to do so, and i have several friends that disagree with my life. more power to em. but the moment someone tries to tell me that i should not be, or god hates it, or try to tell me how to live my life, it is crossing a boundary.

if people want to read the bible to themselves and misinterpret scriptures to fit their disgust, go for it. but bloody well don't read them to me. i don't give a shit what the bible or the koran or any other books says about it. i don't tell people they need to become athiests, and they bloody well shouldn't tell me i i need to become a heterosexual, cause the odds are really strong that neither will occur.

cborgman said:

i am really not one of those "either you are for us or against us" people, but i do think that there is a tremendous differeance between allowing and encouraging decidedly negative discussions to go on and just tolerating alterante sexuality.

quote]

I was trying to say that I think the NPGMC falls into the category of "allowing and encourageing decidedly negative discussions to go on".

Just to add my blathering to the mix, one of the things that upset me the most about my experience with the club this year(and increasingly about some of Prince's lyrics from, say '98 on, starting with The War) was the fact that intelligent posts that were deemed critical were deleted, while idiotic, homophobic posts were routinely left up.

Would anyone argue at this point that Prince isn't at the very least following the basic tenets of JW doctrine? When I saw him in concert last year, he said he had just come from Kingdom Hall. On the Watchtower website, homosexuality is listed under "Lesson 10- Practices That God Hates." Even when I was being raised in a fucked-up Roman Catholic church, I don't think we ever talked about God hating anything.

Here's an excerpt from another propaganda piece, ahem...I mean article on their site, titled "Who Is To Blame? You Or Your Genes?":

An Encouraging Experience

"When I was a young boy in boarding school, I got involved in homosexual practices, although I never thought of myself as being a homosexual. My parents were divorced, and I craved the parental affection that I never received. After finishing school, I did compulsory military service. There was a group of homosexuals in the barracks next to mine. I became envious of their life-style, so I started associating with them. After associating with them for a year, I began to think of myself as a homosexual. 'This is the way I am,' I reasoned, 'and I can do nothing about it.'

I started learning the lingo and going to gay clubs, where drugs and alcohol were freely available. Although outwardly it all seemed very exciting and appealing, it was actually sickening. Deep down I sensed that this kind of relationship was unnatural and had no future.

In a small town, I came across a Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses while the meeting was on. I went in and listened to the talk, which dealt with future Paradise conditions. Afterward I met some of the Witnesses and was invited to an assembly. I went, and that was a revelation to me—seeing happy families worshiping together. I started to study the Bible with the Witnesses.

Although it was a struggle for me, I started to apply what I was learning from the Bible. I was able to break free from all my unclean practices. After studying for 14 months, I dedicated my life to Jehovah and was baptized. For the first time in my life, I had real friends. I have been able to help others learn the truth from the Bible, and I now serve as a ministerial servant in the Christian congregation. Jehovah has truly blessed me."

I agree with HRH PaperCrayonsDreamFirstBornJewDead about the PPs in the chatroom, and also about the topics posted for the chat. You literally can not go in there and pose a respectful argument for gay equality - try it, and you'll see. I went in there when the topic was, "What does the Bible say about homosexuality?," which was posted a few days after the Supreme Court overturned the sodomy laws and the weekend that many cities were celebrating Gay Pride. There were a couple (very) cool people in there, but the majority wanted me out, with a quickness. They wanted to quote bible passages at each other, and they did NOT want to discuss the "topic" of the day with me. One of them went off "looking" for a PP (I assume sending a Private Message? Or do some members get direct walkie-talkies?) because they didn't think it was right that I didn't want to ignore the fact that someone else in the room had made a "joke" about "if enough gays have sex with each other then there won't be an issue because there won't be any gays left" -- and while I was sitting there, waiting to see if a PP would show up, other members were telling me to be respectful, and that was when I realized I should never have gone there in the first place, and I haven't gone since. Chatrooms really aren't my thing.

Oh, and you can't copy the text from the NPGMC chat, and it scrolls quite fast...so it would be difficult to get any sort of transcript...and it's true, the moderators seem particularly, uh...unleashed on that forum.

Just sayin.' What was I sayin', anyway?

beautifulone7 said:[quote]

cborgman said:

no, i know, i didn't mean you was just adding to your point

Err... can someone actually point out to me a statement from Prince and/or the NPGMC saying "We object to gays, lesbians, bisexuals & jews". Just becuse there's a topic that asks "what's your opinion" doesn't mean he's against them. I've never used the chat room, it doesn't work on my computer, but from what I've heard, it's just a bunch of no-life-bible-trippers. Don't take it too personally, or believe that it's Prince's personal viewpoint.

PaperCrayons said:

It's interesting how these topics are percieved as being anti-gay. On their face, the topics merely ask a question, without any anti or pro bias inherent in the question.

Simply put, if I ask someone what their thoughts are about gay marriage, it doesn't automatically mean I'm anti-gay marriage.

Also, many people interpret the bible in a way that's friendly to (or at least not hostile to) homosexuality. The question itself doesn't take a position. It'd be one thing if the topic was "why gay marriage is wrong", but the topics you gave were, imo, fairly neutral. Now if a majority of the participants express themselves as "anti-gay" on a topic seeking thoughts about an issue, well that's their thoughts.

Perhaps your perception of the artist here is coloring your view of the topics. Post these exact same topics on wendyandlisa.com and some would likely see it as pro-gay propoganda.

Moreover, these particular topics aren't entirely out of left field, as you noted, two of the topics were newsworthy issues that were being widely discussed in various media outlets. Why not the NPGMC?


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[This message was edited Tue Sep 9 8:21:27 PDT 2003 by Universaluv]

I don't know, I'm not buying the whole "NPGMC is homophobic" argument at all.

To me, I'm turned off by an artist's homophobia when it's all over their work and a substantial part of their whole message or "schtick" or whatnot. Public Enemy has crossed that line in the past. Fishbone has crossed that line repeatedly, to a point where I can't listen to their music anymore.

But for NPGMC to raise open ended questions about gay marriage and the Bible's stance on homosexuality, without taking a full stance...I dunno...I like to goof on the God Squad as much as the next heathen Bible Belt survivor, but I just don't see the problem.

So the PPs are openly homophobic in chat? I don't think it's much of a secret how I feel about the PPs in general. And whatever the figures of authority say over there, you know the hardcore purple zombies are going to latch on to, just for the sake of making good and maybe, oh gee, getting invited to the oh so sacred VS Lounge (whoop de doo).

Meanwhile, I think it's easy to see that Prince has found ways around his faith in which he can "technically" follow doctrine and still be The Artist Always Known As Prince. I've never seen Prince as much of a "teacher" - did you really get an education from songs like "America" or "Ronnie Talk 2 Russia"? Sure, they were jams, but his politics have always been more than a little confused, and it seems like what he communicates in his music has always been the results of an ongoing education than an authoritative kind of "Look, here's the facts" kind of stance.

So what I'm saying, at least based on hope and good faith anyway, is that I really DO believe that the questions posed by the club, if inspired by Prince, are every bit as open-ended as one could interpret them to be, and that the opinions of the boorish, humorless PPs aren't necessarily reflective of the owners of the establishment, despite the fact that said opinions most likely do influence quite a few club members hungry to be accepted by the online Paisley Park inner circle (for whatever that's worth).

The bottom line to me is, if you're in an environment where a record of your thoughts can't be kept, and if you aren't in an environment where you can speak person to person, face to face, the value of your words is debatable. Maybe there's a reason the PPs are so quick to talk shit in the chats - maybe it's because they know how difficult it is to retain a record of what they say.

And to that end, I have to discount whatever so-called "wisdom" they have to impart in that forum.

Just my thoughts, which are subject to change, heaven knows...


The NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT edit
[This message was edited Mon Sep 8 19:15:39 PDT 2003 by Anxiety]

i wouldnt be offended, in fact pity is what is needed for Prince and his little yes men, for being brainwashed into a state of ridiculousness. They have lost thier souls to hatred and intolerence, and all for the love of god.
thats what can happen when u have led such an insular life and arnet willing to experience the world, your mind is easy to fuck with. so i pity the little man.

Uptown thats where i wanna be, even if prince aint thier anymore, besides i wont hear a bad word spoken about Lesbians, and if god thinks they are an abomination then i guess he dont subscribe to the spice channel
.
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If you read the ENTIRE book (something the bible bashers over at the MC obviously not do) instead of the parts that underline your own opinion, you can read that even the bible makes refference to brotherly love, for instance between David and Saul. The exact phrase i'ld have to look up.
Typically the bible, to say something about both kinda views, that's how major wars started, I mean people only reading what they want to read.

So to all (MC especially): Read the ENTIRE freagin book before you start argueing about it or using it to your advantage. It saves dissapointment when I prove otherwise with the same book you're using for your opinion...
And then? Read it again, or the Koran, or the Thorah for that matter.

Prince has a problem with alternative sexual lifestyles? I have a problem with has-been assholes who charge people $25 for absolutely nothing.

Heavenly said:

and long haired barbarians from Europe.

PaperCrayons said:

Prince is in charge, but he doesn't want the responsibility of monitoring/ moderating of course.

I agree that Prince is keeping his mouth shut. That comes from him being totally unable to take criticism, especially when it is founded.

PaperCrayons said:

I really couldn't say since I am not a member and not planning on joining any time soon. Perhabs if you could publish some of the opinions expressed over there in here I could give my thoughts on that.

katt said:

People have been abusing the Bible ever since it was written.
And the views expressed by Prince and the club as "the truth" have already caused separation between fans.

katt said:

Abrazo said:

I agree with you.
I for one do not like the bible text getting used as a weapon to hurt or place judgment with another.

It is arrogance to believe what you believe is the “Truth” people may presume to know but in reality only god knows the “truth” only god will judge us (that’s if you believe in god).

~Peace & Love 2 All~
[This message was edited Tue Sep 9 7:48:05 PDT 2003 by katt]

In previous years in some pictures, Prince was sort of made up to look like a bisexual. These are JWS that are reponsible for the postings! Not Prince! Would he be dumb enough to alienate fans in this way? No.Who is in charge of the NPG club? The JWS are in charge of Prince's everything!

Please people open your eyes and know the reason why these things are going on. It is sad and disappointing.

PaperCrayons said:

This is not a gay reference...


"Camille" was inspired by a hermaphrodite, that's something completely different from a transvestite...

But all in all Prince is a hypocrite... What else is new?

Neversin.
[This message was edited Tue Sep 9 6:04:58 PDT 2003 by Neversin]

This is such a great thread with such great conversation going on. Anx, beautifulone7, blue, everybody, I truly dig what you all are saying. For me, the experience is this: Topics in the chatroom always come to the message boards over at the club. The questions themselves may be neutral, but dammit, it's known what is going to happen when these questions come up. I really have no problem with folks spouting off bible verses but when someone says something like this: "Folks will say anything to justify their lifestyles", it pisses me off. It goes on and on and nobody comes in to say that folks should respect us and our lifestyle choice. Damn.

Anxiety said:

I guess that all depends on how you define homophobic...
Having spent some time on NPGMC forums and chat, i think a fair representation of how JWs (and this includes the PPs) rationalize some of this stuff is as follows :

The Bible is the book of God, in it God explains, amongst other things, how he wants us to be. Through events both explained and foretold in the Bible, most of mankind has lost its understanding of the word of God. This understanding can only be retrieved by studying the word of God carefully. Things are further complicated by the fact that God has given us all "free will", making the accurate understanding of the word of God a "choice".
So, although God tells us how he wants us to be, he has given us all the free will to do otherwise ... at the end of the journey it will be God, and only God, who will judge each and every individual and decide whether they deserve a place in paradise.

Translated to the issue of homosexuality; JWs (and this includes the PPs) believe that homosexuality is an "abomination" because the Bible says so (and indeed it does, both explicitly and implicitly). In the JW's mind leading a homosexual lifestyle is personal choice, and although God does not want you to be that way, it's your God given right to make that choice. It is not up to the JW to judge you either way... no one man will be ruler, no man is fit to judge any other man ... it's God who is the ruler and upon him falls the task of judgment.

Besides, in the JW's mind there's a list of things God does not want you to do ... homosexuality is "just" one of them, but there's no rating to this list of "sins", one sin is not worse than the other one, they're all equally bad. This again leads to the JW's non-judgmental stance, enforced by the fact that even the most perfect of JWs commits the occasional sin.

So far so "tolerant" ... things get more complicated when you add the following to the mix... As JWs are on a mission to spread the word of God (hence the "witnessing" part), they see it as their duty to share with you their view on reality... this includes their view that the whole "gay marriage" debate has been foretold in the Bible (all government institutions are under the influence of the devil, the end is near). The way they approach this differs from JW to JW. It seems to me that some of these PPs are relatively new to the "faith", and feel inclined to act the perfect JW. Especially when put under the pressure of critical questions, they will not let themselves be hindered by any type of subtlety or empathy ... they'll just blurt out their unnuanced Truths.
I’ve spoken to JWs on NPGMC who truly feel that NPGMC often “over-does” it, thereby defeating the purpose.

m3taverse, thanks for the very well thought out, nicely articulated reply.

I think if the "ideal" JW point of view on sin (as you explained it, anyway) were indeed the way to go, the JW faith would follow the example of other faiths and welcome openly gay members into their churches and recognize same-sex unions as a path toward building a family based on holy matrimony, even if the basis of the coupling is considered sinful. But then again, organized religion isn't exactly known for embracing the concept of harm reduction when we can preach abstinence (as if that has ever been a successful solution for ANYTHING).

If NPGMC is going to be moderated based on the PPs' interpretation of JW dogma, I think potential members should be made aware of that up front. Of course, we all know that ain't ever gonna happen as long as a bit more money can still be made from the legendary image of Prince the pop music "rude boy".

As for myself, I don't believe in the Bible outside of it being a book of philosophies and (to some extent) history, so when these people are trying to judge based on their religion, it has little effect on me. If you wanna talk theology, sociology, whatever-ology, then fine - that can be interesting - but when you go forcing your mythology of choice on me as if it were the one and only truth (and I know it is - TO YOU), I don't have time for it. Keep your subjective singular reality to your damn self, I'm not looking to buy.

stymie said:

That's what conversation is all about stymie, if it pisses you off then say so. Maybe these nuetral questions can be a means for greater understanding. Maybe not. But I can't imagine that the topics should be off-limits because people may say something insensitive. Is more censorship of ideas the answer?


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[This message was edited Tue Sep 9 8:17:37 PDT 2003 by Universaluv]

Forgive me for being naive but why does anyone bother with the NPGMC anyway?

I, for one, have never had any desire to join (unless, perhaps, concert tickets were concerned) since it sounds like less fun than the org and there's no "exclusive" music anymore.

Please enlighten me

jackflash said:

http://www.prince.org/msg...&tid=59678

Universaluv said:

I have said stated how I felt, Universaluv. I was aiming for more understanding but it still seems to me that to them, the greatest sin is being gay/bi. Dig up the thread on Sodom in the Knowledge forum.

stymie said:

Well, stymie, not to be rude, but that's life. People with opposing views aren't always gonna reach an accord. Still, I'd rather have folks talking about the issues than not. My thing is if you don't like how a thread/chat is going, then throw your 2 cents in. Maybe it'll make a difference to someone, even if they are just lurking. Maybe it won't. But if the conversation never takes place then there will never be understanding.


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[This message was edited Tue Sep 9 8:33:25 PDT 2003 by Universaluv]

Universaluv said:

thanks

It seems to me that we should help ol' Princey out - if he didn't make money by begging, he might decide to get a real job.

From The Watchtower (JW website):
Lesson 10
Practices That God Hates:

2. Fornication: Sex before marriage, adultery, bestiality, incest, and homosexuality are all serious sins against God. (Leviticus 18:6; Romans 1:26, 27; 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10) If a couple are not married but are living together, they should separate or else get legally married.—Hebrews 13:4.

nunatak said:

off-topic