Essence said:

I'd say it's arguable that this piece in the VS. room is a song.

kmc said:

Who's stopping him?

kmc said:[quote]

Essence said:

that's the point. he has valid issues but he addresses them in such a childish, heavy-handed manner that he ends up MAKING THE PROBLEM WORSE, not better. it's a fallacy to think that you can raise one people up by putting another people down, but prince has been doing a lot of that lately in his lyrics

Yes, he's free to express his view and we are free to disagree with it.

kmc said:

Get a copy of Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States". You want black faces in your history books? There you go. I think a new edition of this book has just recently been published - it's an important book for any American to own.

First post on the org...

These new lyrics are not only offensive (why am i bigot or my ancestors bigots simply because of the country we were born in or the colour of our skins? what does Prince know of my 'history' - all 25yrs of it - as a white English/Irish/Scottish/Scandinavian/Jew. The 'english' who wallowed in bigotry were the rich upper classes - everyone else was effectively enslave by capitalism, the legal system and gin), but worse they're historically inaccurate.

Prince is conveniently ignoring the role played by the English in the abolition of slavery - if it wasn't for the actions of the Royal Navy then the slave trade would have lasted much longer (and, of course, did in the US) Slavery was outlawed in the UK following the mass protests of those "bigots" who Prince criticises - both white and black.

Of course Britain was a leader in the slave trade (though not quite as enthusiastic as other European nations) but like Prince is so fond of reminding us, we can all take responsibility for our past actions by altering our present/future actions.

Prince would do better to address the current social inequities rather than harping on about the past... its important to know how we got here - but Prince used to express how we'd get somewhere else...

I'm fed up with people generalising & projecting experience as a representation of society. Society and history are academic constructs. They have no ontological reality. It all depends on where you decide to stand.


so there.

Tel

XxAxX said:

So France, England and Germany are the "entire european continent" now?

And no he did not stereotype those three regions... it is WELL documented that religious freedom and pluralism WAS NOT ALLOWED in Europe during the reign of the Moors. That is bigotry.

Under Moorish Spain, Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived among each other and worked together to create and synthesize the best that history had produced up to that point. This is what Prince is celebrating. This is his new Uptown--a pluralistic society with God at its foundation. That the Moorish rule was Islamic and not Christian should put the anti-JW's at ease to see that he is propping a non-Christian civilization.

The society of the Moors contrasted GREATLY and RADICALLY from what was going on in the rest of Europe where Inquisitions were the order of the day, and people were being sentenced to death for not professing the state religion and state god.

And when Europe finally invaded Spain and overthrow the Moors, do you know what happened next? The Expulsion of 1492... the forced expulsion of Jews and Muslims from Spain, or their being forced into hiding or killed outright for not confessing Christianity as their religion... and a wave of anti-Semitism took even firmer root in European culture.

This is documented and well known. It is bigotry plain and simple.

I think this piece from Prince represents a significant sign that he has not embraced a narrow religious world view that excludes non JWs... He still has God and his way of relating to God has his personal root... but in celebrating a society that allowed for religious pluralism, I think is a sign (or a standard to hold him to) that pluralism is the answer.

Tel said:

good points, tel...

To me Prince was a warm glowing light that drew you in and left you feeling warm and enriched.

Now he's more like a glaring light, so harsh I turn away so as not to be blinded and unable to see my truth for myself.



I've written and deleted a lot of stuff. I don't really know how to put into words what I think about all of this, so I won't bore ya'll.

Handclapsfingasnapz said:

Please see my post above to see how Moorish Spain relates to Uptown... and the lessons that history can teach us.

He's not saying YOU are a bigot for being British. Sheeesh! He is saying that bigotry was practiced at that time... and he is not specifying against whom. Feudalism bound folk to the landowners as though they were slaves. That is bigotry no?

What he IS doin is contrasting what was going on in Europe at the time with what was going on in Spain at the time under Moorish rule. There are histories of people fleeing feudal Europe to live under Moorish rule because even as a slave in North Africa they enjoyed greater rights and freedoms and lives than as serfs in feudalism.

Why not look to the Moors as a model of pluralism? A place where diverse people came together and produced a brilliant civilization? In the 1300s and 1400s... that was UNHEARD of. About as unheard of as it is today. This is the lesson I hear coming through.

NuPwrSoul said:

Handclapsfingasnapz said:

Que?

stymie said:

Huh? What I wasn't clear enough? Has this place gone to the toilet so much that the only thing that people can understand is "fuck prince" or "prince is shit?"?

NuPwrSoul said:

i see. it all makes perfect sense now. pluralism, even for all us long haired barbarians

hmmmph.

NuPwrSoul said:

no--i understood u perfectly, nupwr. i wuz marinatin on whatcha said, that's what i meant by ...don't worry, i get it.

XxAxX said:

especially if your name is Lynch

Handclapsfingasnapz said:

my bad. that emoticon just looks like s/he smelled something foul is all

NuPwrSoul said:

awright

See! I must've been HIGH the day that this was taught at my school. I wondered why the year 1492 popped across the NPGMC welcome screen.

And to think I assumed it was a messed up reference to the number 17, you know 1+4+9+2=17

Another topic: 1+4+9+2 is not 17

endoftheworld edit
[This message was edited Tue May 20 10:38:49 PDT 2003 by kmc]

NuPwrSoul said:

no NwPwrSoul, prince isn't shit, he never will be, and no one wants to fuck him. he's still cool. always will be, in his way

but, he's controversial as ever, i guess. for me, since i don't know the man at all so the only thing i can 'judge' him by are his music and the content of his lyrics. there was a time when i felt like he could read my mind about spirituality. but not anymore. yeah, his music still rocks, just not his vibe. all angry and pointing fingers. and, don't get me wrong, he's free to go in whatever direction he wishes. i'm glad he's confronting the deeply divisive issues of race and religion. i just don't like the way he's doing it. i feel a negative vibe coming from those lyrics, turns me away. but maybe he wants it that way, is the feeling i get.

kmc said:

must've been



you still smokin?

NuPwrSoul said:

No, NuPwr. Not at all. I read what Prince wrote in the VS room. I didn't fully understand it. Then I read what you wrote and didn't fully understand it. Please give me the Hooked On Ebonics version. Please?

I think even if I disagree 1,000% with what he's trying to say in a song, if he says it in a way that's clever, I can still appreciate it as art.

For example, the politics in the song "America" are just muddled to me. On the one hand it sounds like he's going for a pacifistic, hippie kinda vibe, and on the other hand, the lyrics would make any Republican happy (this WAS the 80s, don't forget)...but the way he put the words together, the way the lyrics flowed with the song...it was easy to put his weirdo naive politics aside and just GROOVE.

When a song is too wordy and the rhythm and rhyme are compromised by trying to squeeze a big, complex message into a fragile little song structure, I'm sorry, that doesn't appeal to me. There are verses on TRC that really need to be stripped down, or moved to the liner notes, or woven into the music a different way, cuz they're about as smooth as an anvil wrapped in sandpaper.

He's awakening to a new purpose for his music. That's great. His focus is on his message. Fine. I'm looking forward to the day when the novelty of that wears off and he starts giving attention to the CRAFT of what he does, and how he can shape his messages more artistically, cuz he has the talent for it, though apparently not the inclination at the moment...

XxAxX said:

I hear what you're saying. I think the "Barbarian" thing is being misconstrued, as I recall it being a historically accurate term to refer to a specific group of people, much like the Hordes of central Asia. In fact, if the term "barbarian" has negative connotations now, it is most likely because of what the group called "Barbarians" are most famous for in history. When the the invading hordes from the western Asian/eastern European region invaded the less martial societies, those civilizations were sacked and many of their libraries etc. were destroyed.

To the more general sentiment you are expressing... I appreciate your honesty. I wish I could convince you and others to listen for something different, something refreshinig that I hear Prince grappling with... something which is not alienating or estranging... and to take it into context of his entire body of work. Even if Prince may seemed to have moved on--and in some ways he has--remember someone who so powerfully once sang about an Uptown utopia (and I believe he still does, but...)... I mean that is in his very being. Nothing will be able to dislodge that humanity. As he confronts some of the ugly realities of the past and present, like we hopefully all will with truthfulness and sincerity, know that at least he's doing it from the basis of the multicultural base that he himself laid. I do not see any evidence of him eroding that... he's testing it for sure. But it's still there.

Some things are going to be contrasts, some things are going to be different, but let's allow the space for him and each other to think on them. No one has to leave the room--it's big enough.

Anxiety said:

Well it did say "unfinished" right? I have seen people pay $100s of dollars for crappy rehearsal tapes or for the gawdawful "making of the mountains video"... why not a glimpse into what Prince is diggin these days even at its rawest form?

VS is opposite the musicology room, which is givin us little sample tracks in the same way... glimpses into the elements that he's playin with to make a song.
[This message was edited Tue May 20 11:07:45 PDT 2003 by NuPwrSoul]

stymie said:

Okay, the specific paragraph you asked about... Prince seems to be celebrating when the Moors occupied Spain and contrasting their rule of Spain with what was goin on in the rest of Europe. One of the most distinctive things between the two was the level of religious tolerance and diversity in Moorish society, which was absent in the rest of Europe at the time.

I'm suggesting that by upholding Moorish Spain, Prince is celebrating a pluralistic society. It was still religious--as they were Muslims and had God at their root--but they allowed for non Muslims to be full participants in their society. Many other have suggested that Prince's recent religious ideas are exclusive and alienating to non-JWs, (I don't agree with them but...) I'm saying that this instance of Prince upholding a non Christian pluralistic society is a good sign.
[This message was edited Tue May 20 11:09:10 PDT 2003 by NuPwrSoul]

NuPwrSoul said:

okay NwPwrSoul, that makes sense and thanks for your insights. i guess if i demand of prince that he be openminded i'd jolly well better extend to him the same courtesy. and btw, i don't think he's evil or anything, just angry and a tad too fierce

and i really DO think it's cool that he's allowing us insight into his works in progress. hopefully, he's getting a more encouraging response on the NPGMC message boards. . . wherever they are

Thanks, NuPwr. I think I have it now. Peace and blessings.

Why can't Prince be free to express his world view?

I think he is free, and I think he does express his views.

kmc said:

That is in fact prince saying that he doesn't give flying shit if people say that. He in fact slaps the one saying that in the face. Now how is that for freedom?


??? radio said that?

prince was free enough to contract to the same company that owns most of the radiostations in the US to support his overpriced tour, in which he was free enough to let fans join for pre-seating and have them paid the hightes ticket price possible.



radical man was wrong.