SynthiaRose said:

There are metaphors aplenty in a song he just wrote called "Reflection", not to mention in his most recent released works, "One Nite Alone" and "TRC".

Art is everything you've just outlined in excellent fashion and a whole lot more. Sometimes art is very pointed, probing, painful and even polarizing.

NuPwrSoul said:

How far are we from "Uptown" utopia when people can't even handle another opinion without becoming enraged? Even when people openly admit they don’t understand something they’re absolutely sure it must be personally addressed to them.

Prince is a great musician but he's showing his ignorance writing about History.

If he's trying to express he's not the one to consider one race or the other, one culture or the other "the devil" it is ok but doing it the way he does, talking about history with places, dates, etc., in such a simple, partial, superficial way so far of being serious and scientifique.

It's sad to see this... I wish he just play good music and leave History for the experts. It would be great if he goes to University as he's showing so much interest in learning and teaching.

Prince if you ever read this, please my friend ... go on stage, grab a guitar and show us your mastership on it...I'd make a fool of myself doing that, don't you make a fool of yourself writing this...


Delores
From Spain

Othello was a Moor. So they probably looked like Laurence Olivier.

:LOL: :LOL:

Does everyone see this as lyrics to a song? I think these are just some lyrics.

It's some TRESVANTY shit goin on up in heeeaaa...



Note: the term "Tresvanty" is used courtesy of NuPwrSoul

Supernova said:

Bravo, Supernova!

Delores said:

Yes he is a great musician, but umm NO he is not showing his ignorance by referencing history... quite the contrary, from the look of this thread and the mocking poll at the front page of this site, he is EXPOSING the ignorance of many people on and involved with this site.



Yes, dance nigga dance, sing nigga sing. Tha's all you were good for anyway. Who told him to pick up a book?

Why should he have to go to University? Knowledge is free the last time I checked.



No Prince you keep on doing what you're doing. You are not making a fool of yourself, you are growing, exploring, reflecting, and thinking. You are an artist intellectual, and just because folks can't hang with it that's THEIR hang up.

CalhounSq said:

Tresvanty AND Twahney... sheeeit.

rdhull said:

Dunno how I missed that... but FO REAL THO.

javed said:

No I don't have to DEAL with it and I don't have to leave. We have a right to complain and voice our opinions. If we want to b*tch about Prince being Mr. Preacher man we can.

NuPwrSoul said:

Hey guess what, we don't need a history lesson, it is over with and done with. If he or any other black person can not get over what happend back then has some major problems. They are the ones continuing the racial problems in the world because they do not know how to let something go. Just because something bad happened in the past doesn't give them the right to keep on complaing and pushing things on people until it is done their way. Sorry the world will not bend and that is a fact so give it up allready.

NuPwrSoul said:

Yeah well no one is being oppressed like that anymore so give it up.

Supernova said:

Exactly. Very Dixie Chicks - like all they can ever do in life is entertain you. They're not allowed to actually think or express their opinions outside of the context of entertainment.

That is complete and utter bullshit. And I wonder if the people who scrutinize artists like Prince and the Dixie Chicks constrain their own lives to their occupations ...

divo02 said:

Great point, if some one said anything negative about those lyrics the surely would be reprimanded or possibly banned from the club. The club seems to be a one way street. Which kinda sucks because there freedom of speach only applys if you agree with his flawed logic.

fairlite said:

That's BS. Although there is a very distinct vibe over at NPGMC I don't think anybody is likely to get deleted for offering up different opinions. BlueAngel is living proof, once you have paid up your money they are unlikely to ban and risk having to refund...

fairlite said:

Yes folks DO need a history lesson as evidenced by the ignorant statements being made.

Do you think we were born in a vacuum? Why do you think doctors seek out their patients' medical history? Because they need to know what traits you carry, what propensity for disease.

Society is like an organism. How did we get here? You think the world is recreated every day without using what happened yesterday? What kind of "Groundhog Day" starring Bill Murray are you living in?



Maybe you are the one with the hang up who needs to let something go. Prince just made some historical statements and people are all in a frenzy. Let it go yall let it go.

And I wonder if you would tell Jews to forget the Holocaust? Would you tell the survivors of 9/11 to let it go? Get the fuck outta here with that bullshit.



Who is pushing anything on you? You act like you are being oppressed by knowledge. Choose ignorance, it's more blissful.

It's pretty basic to me. How do you know not to play with fire? Either cuz you learned from your own personal history or that of someone else that you'll get burned. Same thing here.

Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

fairlite said:

More ignorance. There are people all in various parts of the world suffering at the hands of oppressing forces.

Even if you want to wear blinders and ignore those instances, clearly my comments were made in the context of history.

AND NOW FOR THE FLIP SIDE

as usual, prince's 'history' lesson leaves out an interesting perspective: that of how the moors actually INVADED AND CONQUERED SPAIN. no, they were not peace-loving people. read for yourself:


FROM: http://www.white-history.com/hwr23.htm
MARCH OF THE TITANS -

A HISTORY OF THE WHITE RACE

Chapter 23: The Third Great Race War - The Moors Invade Europe

The invasion of Western Europe by a non-White Muslim army after 711 AD, very nearly extinguished modern White Europe - certainly the threat was no less serious than the Hunnish invasion which had earlier created so much chaos. While the Huns were Asiatics, the Moors were a mixed race invasion - part Arabic, part Black and part mixed race, always easily distinguishable from the Visigothic Whites of Spain.

Although the Muslim armies were collectively known as the Moors or Saracens, they were in fact divided up into their own factions. Nonetheless, together they very nearly conquered all of Spain, and were only turned back from occupying all of Western Europe by a desperate White counter attack in France. The story of this seven hundred year long race war is without doubt one of the most arduous ever fought by the Whites in defense of their continent.

By 709 AD, the Muslim armies had conquered all of Northern Africa and stood on the southern side of the Straits of Gibraltar, with only the Visigothic fortress of Ceuta, situated on the African side of the straits of Gibraltar, still remaining in White hands.


Above: The Muslims driven out of Spain: the black portions indicate the extent of non-White Moorish rule.

WHITE SPAIN INVADED

In 711 AD, Ceuta fell to the Moors and immediately a Moorish fleet sailed across the strait and seized a beachhead on Andalusia in Spain, their first territory on the European mainland.

The Spanish Gothic king of the time, Roderic, rushed an army south and engaged the Moors in a three day battle at Xeres. The Moors won, and the Gothic Spaniards were forced to retreat, giving the Moors time to land a seemingly inexhaustible supply of soldiers from the population wells of North Africa.

Soon the Moors had assembled a massive army and within a few months had conquered most of Gothic Spain.

THE TRIBUTE OF 100 WHITE VIRGINS PER YEAR

Only isolated pockets of Gothic resistance held out. In the north an enclave only secured its existence by being forced to enter a treaty with the Moors in terms of which the Goths had to hand over 100 White Gothic virgins a year to the Moorish leaders for use in their harems - a painful tribute which continued until 791 AD, when the Goths once enough became strong enough to break the terms of the treaty.



Above: A dramatic painting - based on actual events - showing Moors celebrating the fall of a White Spanish town, with White females captured alive. For several years the Moors demanded - and received - a yearly tribute of young White girls for use in their harems after the great Moorish victory of 711. This yearly tribute continued until 791 AD when the Whites had recovered their strength enough to break the terms of a treaty with the non-Whites.

THE MOORS ATTACK FRANCE

The Moors did however not rest with the conquest of Spain. Their Holy War, or Jihad, forced them ever on, and in 722, they crossed the Pyrenees and invaded Gothic Gaul (France), seizing several towns in the south of that country.

Ten years later, in 732, they launched what was to be their final bid to overcome all of Western Europe when a massive army under the command of the Moorish governor of Spain, Abd arRahman, began laying waste to large parts of Frankish and Gothic France.

The Goths in Aquitaine, under their leader Eudes, were defeated at Garonne, and they were forced back into central France, carrying with them news of the frightful and merciless Moorish invasion.

CHARLES MARTEL SAVES EUROPE - 732 AD

France had, since the fall of the Roman Empire, been consolidated under a leading Celtic/Indo-European tribe called the Franks, who were based in the region surrounding present day Paris. The Frankish king at the time of the Moorish invasion, Charles Martel, (Charles the Hammer) immediately mobilized a White counter attack.

The armies of Charles Martel and Abd arRahman met in battle between the towns of Tours and Potiers in Central France in October 732. The battle was one of the most momentous in the history of the White race. Defeat would have meant that all of Western Europe might have fallen under the sway of Islam, and the mixed races from the East would have poured into continental Europe.


Left: The non-White Moorish advance into Europe seemed unstoppable when in 732 AD they launched a massive invasion of present day France. The king of the leading White tribe in that country, Charles Martel of the Franks (who had their headquarters in present day Paris) mobilized a counter attack. A great race battle took place between the towns of Tours and Potiers in central France in October 732 AD. The battle was one of the most momentous in the history of the White race. Defeat would have meant that all of Western Europe might have fallen under the sway of Islam, and the mixed races from the East would have poured into continental Europe. Accounts have it that 375,000 Moors were killed - the White army was utterly victorious over the non-White army and the Moorish invasion of Europe was halted in its tracks. Charles Martel earned his name -Martel means 'hammer' - at this battle - he personally bludgeoned to death a large number of non-Whites with his favorite weapon, a mighty hammer.

An epic seven day battle for Europe followed. One medieval account states that 375,000 Moors were killed. Although this is probably an exaggeration, it does indicate the way the battle went - the non-White army was utterly defeated by the White army.

In the first six days of the battle, the archers and cavalry of the Moors seemed to have the advantage, but on the seventh day, the main body of fighting closed to hand to hand combat. Here the greater physical stature of the Germanics counted for more - with the Frankish King Charles earning the name "hammer" at this battle in recognition of the mighty and fatal strokes with which he personally killed dozens, if not hundreds, of Moors.

Having failed to break the Germanic lines in the hand to hand combat, the Moorish alliance retreated, and their multi-racial and ethnic origin showed up its weakest point - the units, comprising men made up from Arabia, Africa, and parts of Asia, were stunned by their first major defeat and broke up in disarray, each blaming the other, giving victory to the Germanics who never actually pierced the Moorish lines.

The Moors fled south of the Pyrenees back into Spain, and awaited the Frankish drive south which would drive them back into Africa.

This did not come - Charles Martel had exhausted the wealth of the Frankish empire in drawing together an army big enough to defeat the Moors. He was forced to seize a portion of the Church's wealth, an act for which the Christians condemned him strongly, even though if he had failed, Christianity would have been replaced by Islam.

Charles Martel's greatest achievement was the defeat of the Muslim invasion of France. This single act prevented the mixed race Arabs and North Africans from penetrating right into Western Europe and turning it into another Middle East - Charles Martel can truly be credited with saving the Whites of Western Europe from destruction at that point in history.

FURTHER FRANKISH CAMPAIGNS AGAINST THE MOORS

In 755, a local invasion by Franks conquered the town of Narbonne from the Moors, and after a further six years the last Moors were driven out of all of modern France.

In 778, Charles the Great (also known as Charlemagne, Charles Martel's grandson), undertook a campaign in Northern Spain which recaptured much of the territory north of the Ebo river.

It was during the withdrawal of the Frankish army at the successful conclusion of this campaign that a rear guard unit of Franks under the command of Charlemagne's nephew, Roland, was ambushed and slaughtered by the Basques (who opposed the Arabs, Goths and Franks with equal vigor).

The desperate fight to the death became part of French folklore, today reflected in the famous Chanson de Roland - the Song of Roland.

THE WHITE RECONQUEST

During the period of Muslim dominance in Spain, a few regions managed to hold out against the Arabs even at their height. In this way Barcelona was never occupied by the Arabs, as were some northern regions.

These regions banded together in a broad anti-Muslim alliance, and began pushing south, slowly but surely driving the Muslims back.

This was a painfully slow process and lasted many hundreds of years - more than enough time for a certain amount of mixing between parts of the White population and the Arab rulers to have taken place, helping to create the "dark" Spanish look which can be seen amongst many inhabitants of Spain today.

This mixing process in Spain was, as in Greece and Rome, not as complete as in the regions of North Africa or the Middle East, and large numbers of Whites remained intact on the European side of the Mediterranean.

However, enough Arabic blood was mixed with the locals in the southernmost parts of Europe that the distinctive dark look, which is today mistakenly called the "Mediterranean" look, is the lasting evidence of the Muslim invasion.

ISABELLA AND FERDINAND - VANQUISHED THE MOORS

The White reconquest of Spain had however only been carried on in fits and starts. In a great battle fought on the plains of Toledo in July 1212, the non-Whites were defeated by a great White army, and the Moors were then restricted to the southern parts of Spain. The north was given time to recuperate and rebuild its strength.

It was only with the rise of two great leaders - the red-haired Isabella I (1451-1504), Queen of Castile, and Ferdinand V, King of Aragon, that the Moors were finally driven from Europe. Castile was one of the territories never occupied by the Moors, and Aragon had been liberated in one of the localized wars between the Visigoths and the Moors.

Isabella, who won renown for not only liberating Spain from the last of the Moors, but for being one of the main sponsors of the voyages of discoveries of Christopher Columbus, was the product of a marriage between Spanish and Portuguese nobility who had, along with a substantial amount of Spaniards, avoided the mixing caused by centuries of Moorish rule. In 1469, Isabella married Ferdinand - due to intertwining royal family connections and personal conquest, he was not only King of Aragon, but also was king of Sicily (1468-1516); and king of Naples (1504-1516).




Above: The great White King and Queen of Spain, Ferdinand and Isabella, who drove the non-White Muslims out of Spain, expelled the Jews and started the exploration of America by financing Christopher Columbus - all in the same year, 1492.

When Isabella's brother died, she and her husband jointly succeeded (1474) to the throne of Castile. This union of the two main Spanish kingdoms laid the foundation of Spain's future greatness. Isabella became Queen of Castile when she was 23 years old. No sooner had she become queen when her kingdom was invaded by Alfonso V, King of Portugal, who was hoping to capitalize upon the weakness of the Spaniards in the confusion following the Moorish invasion. Castile was very nearly overrun, and it was only with a near superhuman effort that Isabella and Ferdinand were able to raise a strong enough army to defeat Alfonso in 1475. With the Portuguese threat settled, Isabella and Ferdinand then turned their attention to their real enemy - the Moors.

THE MOORS RENEW THEIR ATTACK UPON EUROPE

In the interim, the Muslims were renewing their assault on Europe. In 1479, Mohammed II, the Grand Turk, attacked the Island of Rhodes off Greece, only being repulsed by a White invasion under the Knights of St. John in 1480.

THE HILL OF MARTYRS - ITALY INVADED

Undeterred, Mohammed II then invaded Italy itself, seizing the city of Otranto in the Kingdom of Naples. Of the 22,000 inhabitants the Muslims captured, 12,000 were bound with ropes and tortured to death outside the city walls. The Muslims also killed all the Christian priests they could find. On a hill outside the city, known to this day as Martyr's Hill, they killed many captives who refused to convert to Islam.

THE TEN YEARS WAR - ISABELLA SELLS HER JEWELRY

It was not long before the Muslims renewed their assault on Spain. On 25 December 1482, the Muslims from Granada seized the town of Zahara, only 15 miles from Seville. The Ten Years War had started.

Isabella and Ferdinand then used a substantial amount of the money and riches they had confiscated from Spain's Jewish population (many of whom had become falsely converted to Christianity in order to avoid rising anti-Jewish feeling resulting from the Moorish occupation) and bought large quantities of new cannons and weapons from France, Germany and Northern Italy.

Even this was not enough, and finally Isabella sold all her own royal and personal gold, silver, pearls and jewels, to raise money for the liberation of her country from the non-Whites.

Supported by the new armaments obtained from elsewhere in Europe, Isabella and Ferdinand waged a demanding and extremely costly - in terms of lives and material - war to drive the Moors out of Europe for once and for all.

THE WHITE RECONQUEST STARTS

The reconquest of Spain from the Moors started with the seizure of Alhama in 1482, here described by an eyewitness, the Castilian Diego of Valera:

"While Count Rodrigo Ponce of Leon, Marquis of Cadiz, was in Marchena, several leaders came to him and they said that , if the Marquis wanted, they could tell him of a way in which the city of Alhama could be taken without any risk. . . .this was because the Moors took their safety for granted, as their city was so strong and situated so deep within their kingdom, on top of a high summit, completely surrounded by a river and accessible only by a single route up a very rough and steep hill.

"Before dawn, on Tuesday 10 February 1482, the Marquis' troops arrived outside the city of Alhama, Those who carried the scaling equipment quietly set it up.

"They were not seen until they were well inside the city. As daylight was breaking, a commotion arose and the Christians who lived in the city, as well as the other inhabitants, came running.

"When the Moors heard this . . .they gathered in the square and divided up among the men all the places from which they could best defend their walls. The Marquis of Cadiz and the other knights entered the city through the back gate on order to force the Moors to come out to fight.

"As the street was very narrow it did not allow for more than two men abreast to go through the gate, while the square where the Moors stood was very wide. So when the Marquis' men entered the square the Moors killed them as they came in two by two, and began to shoot so many cannon and arrows and stones that no one else dared to enter through the narrow street.

"Although the Christians received many blows in the narrow alleyways, they finally, by the grace of our Lord, drove the Moors fleeing from the square down towards the gates to Granada: there stood a mosque, very secure, where the Moors were surrounded: many were left dead or wounded.

"Then the Marquis of Cadiz ordered that the city gates be opened; his men entered killing and taking prisoner any enemies they found. They took many Moors . . . one soldier took thirty heads . . .

"The Moors stayed in the Mosque all day on Wednesday, defending it bravely. They were still there on Thursday, so the Marquis ordered his men to set fire to it. So many Moors were hurt that finally out of fear they told the Marquis that they would do as he wished; the Marquis then divided them up amongst his knights (as prisoners).

"On the morning of the following day, 13 February 1482, the Muslim king of Grenada, Abul Hassan, arrived near Alhama with a powerful army, seven thousand on horseback and one hundred thousand on foot and surrounded the city. The siege lasted several days, and since it took place during Lent, the Christians ate nothing but boiled wheat, chick-peas and beans. When the Moors saw that the Christians were not weakening, they worked to redirect the water supply away from the city; a few times the Marquis waded into the water up to his knees to cut down and burn the barricades the Moors had set up. When the Moors saw the great effort of the Christians to defend the city, they decided to break camp (giving the marquis the city)."

Between 1483 and 1486, the Spanish drove the Moors out of the western half of the kingdom of Granada. With the capture of the city of Malaga in 1487, followed in quick succession by the fall of the towns of Baza, Almeria and Gaudix in campaigns during 1488 to 1489, the White noose tightened round the last non-White stronghold - the citadel of Grenada.

THE FALL OF GRENADA

The White armies gathered their strength for one last mighty push against the Moors. Isabella hired, at her own expense, 40,000 mules to carry the provisions needed by the army which she and Ferdinand had gathered together.

At last, by July 1491, the great White army stood outside the gates of the city of Granada itself. The Moors took refuge in the fort known as the Alhambra. Outside Ferdinand and Isabella personally took command of the siege army.

July, August, September, October, November and December passed. The besieged Moors became desperate, their food supplies ran low and disease started to spread within the closed walls.

Finally on 30 December 1491, the Moorish king, Abu Abd-Allah, opened negotiations for surrender. The final surrender was recorded by an eyewitness, the priest Bernaldez, who was the chaplain of the archbishop of Seville:

"On Monday 2 January (1492) they (Isabella and Ferdinand) left the camp with their army duly drawn up. As they came near to the Alhambra, Abu Abd-Allah rode out, accompanied by many of his knights, with the keys of the city in his hand. He tried to dismount in order to kiss the king's hand, but the king would not allow it.

"The Moor kissed Ferdinand on the arm and gave him the keys, saying 'Take the keys of your city, for I, and the men who are within, are your vassals.' King Ferdinand took the keys and gave them to the queen . . ."

The surrender of Granada in 1492 was the first time in 770 years the White Goths once again ruled all of Spain.



Above: Monday 2 January 1492: The last non-White stronghold in Spain, the citadel of Grenada, surrenders to the victorious White army, led personally by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella. It was the first time in 770 years that all of Spain was once again under White control.

FURTHER CAMPAIGNS

Ferdinand became involved in an internal dispute in Italy, and was part of a force which conquered the Republic of Venice in 1508. This force went on in 1509 to conquer Oran and Tripoli on the North African coast from the Moors. Finally Ferdinand annexed the kingdom of Navarre in 1512. These conquests extended the borders of Spain to the Straits of Gibraltar, a border it has kept to this day.

This was however not the end of Spanish wars against Islam. In 1535, the Spanish King Charles V mounted expeditions against Muslim held Tunis and Algiers in 1541, preventing another incipient Muslim invasion of Europe from North Africa, and in 1571, Spain played a leading role in putting together a powerful White navy which defeated the non-White Ottoman navy at the Battle of Lepanto, permanently weakening Turkish maritime power.

EXPULSION OF 250,000 MIXED RACE MOORS

Finally in 1609, the Spanish king Philip III ordered the physical expulsion of some 250,000 "Moriscos" or Christianized Moors from the country. The Moriscos were in fact of mixed White/Moorish ancestry and in this way a large number of mixed race inhabitants of Southern Spain were forcibly expelled from that country.

THE EXPULSION OF THE JEWS

The Spanish Jews were amongst the first to feel the full effects of the fall of the Moors from power in Spain. In 1492 Isabella and Ferdinand formally expelled all Jews from that country, punishing the Spanish Jews for having actively collaborated with the Moors during their 780 year long occupation. The victorious Moors (who, because of their common Semitic ancestry with the Spanish Jews and the already poor relations between the Jews and the Goths) employed several Spanish Jews in their administration of Spain in some of the highest posts, even though there were occasional outbursts of anti-Jewish feeling amongst the Arabs themselves.

In the city of Grenada, the last to fall to the White armies, the Spanish were enraged to learn that the Moorish king's prime minister and most of his leading advisors were Jews. A massacre of Jews in the city followed that discovery. This alliance between a number of Spanish Jews and the Moors inflamed the anti-Semitic feeling amongst the subdued Goths even further; a sentiment which would later flare up in the form of the Spanish Inquisition and the expulsion of the Jews from Spain.

THE INQUISITION

When Spain was finally liberated from the non-White Moors, the long suppressed anti-Jewish sentiment broke out in full fury. In that year all unbaptized Jews were expelled en masse from Spain, and the infamous Spanish Inquisition, set up to enforce Christendom, was used to persecute Jews, who, because of their collaboration with the Moors, were regarded as the implacable enemies of White Spain.

Earlier Isabella had obtained from the Pope in Rome a dispensation to establish the Inquisition in Spain, which soon turned into a fully fledged anti-Jewish campaign under the name of Christianity. The first hearings against the Conversos were held in February 1481 in Castile - it combined with the outbreak of the "Black Plague" - bubonic plague. Many Christian fanatics linked the outbreak of the plague to the start of proceedings against the Conversos, and the Jews were blamed for the plague as well as their other real or imagined crimes, which included accusations that they had betrayed the city of Toledo to the invading Moors by opening the city gates at a crucial junction in the siege of that city.

The leading Conversos held a secret meeting to resist the Inquisition with force. Isabella's spies however found out about the planned rebellion and arrested the ringleaders, most prominent amongst them a rabbi named Diego de Susan. He, along with six other Jews, was tried for subversion, found guilty and executed by burning at the stake in late 1481.

The Conversos then broke rank in panic, and starting fleeing Spain in large numbers, some going to Italy, but many going to Muslim held Turkey, where they once again enjoyed special status. Much property belonging to the Converso Jews - who by some estimates made up as much as 20 per cent of Spain's pre-Inquisition population - was seized by Isabella and added to the state treasury.

[picture]
Above: Captured White prisoners about to be decapitated by Saracens: note how the Spaniards are depicted with blond hair.

SPAIN'S GOLDEN AGE

After the expulsion of the Moors and the Jews, Spain entered its Golden Age. It created a huge empire, and along with Portugal, became one of the most powerful nations in Europe. Unfortunately for Spain and Portugal, both countries declined soon afterwards due to a change in their population make-up, as detailed in the previous chapter.

Nonetheless, the liberation of Spain from Moorish rule saved Western Europe from complete Arabic domination, and as a result the Visigothic warriors who undertook this 700 year war, will always be remembered for their great feat of arms.


All material (c) copyright Ostara Publications, 1999.

XxAxX said:

I love it! Too bad you couldn't find a less polemical, more objective source to debunk Prince's view.

Here's what that oh so informative site has to say:



In other words let's be clear here, "racial homogeneity" = racial purity (sounds familiar eh Adolf?) and "racial dissolution" = racial integration and "a nation can not survive that." LMAO at that racist bullshit.

Is this what you're reading?

edit dissolution.
[This message was edited Wed May 21 9:04:26 PDT 2003 by NuPwrSoul]

What exactly would it take to make you racists face your racism and hatred? Why do you pretend? What a charade! Do you not know youre racist? Amazing. Face who you are, and the schizophrenic hypocrisy of your actions. Look at the things youre in the midst of thinking and posting. I dare you to think. lol

Jagjams said:

Who are you talking about?

how come are you so sure, Prince? besides the Arabic world continued to grow in Arabia and I don't see this culture as being that one-sided 400 years more advanced than the so called Western world. While I agree we can learn a lot from islamic cultures, then it seems to me they can learn a lot from ours (as for example, I would not like to be born a woman there).



A nice delicate remark about the African origin referring to dancing to a drum beat. I like it a lot.



let me pass on the problematic expression "trule free".

The fact is that there was no Germany until 1871 (A.D.), - check your history books - the history of the Middle Ages knows The Roman Empire of the German Nation, but not Germany itself.

However, the high level of Arabic civilisation is very much true and anybody who knows history for history (not politics) knows that very well. Another point is, however, that Europeans drew much of their borrowings from Arabic knowledge and culture during the Crusades, from the Middle East, not only from the Moors of Spain.



The European civilisation is based upon two cornerstone-like cultures: the Greek one and the Judaic one. These two combined gave birth to one of the leading religions in the world, Christianity.

The Greek culture borrowed a lot from the Egyptian and Persian cultures, but the Achays (have no idea if this is the correct word in English) came from the North. Their evolution and its outcome is what we now perceive as the ancient Athens and Macedonian culture(s).

Greeks didn't give anything to Rome, Rome simply conquered Greek nations and took their achievements into the practical level which Greeks couldn't or didn't want to reach.



The history of Christianity of the Middle Ages knows at least a handful of concepts of what Christianity was. Which one do you mean here, Prince?

This said, I am absolutely aware of the murderous doings of the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages in Europe (the Holy Inquisition, the Crusades) and in next centuries in the so called colonies. Still, I hardly see it as a characterics of the Catholic Church only. After all, presently the world is facing jihad, which also leads me to have my doubts about the statement expressed in the very first verse of the lyrics hereby analysed.




Fully admitted (as stated earlier), though I didn't bother to check the numbers (they're also quite irrelevant). The noteworthy fact is that public libraries were already known in the Ancient Ages, the most notable example would be the Alexandrian Library (founded by a Macedonian, Alexander the Great).

Otherwise, one of the best verses in the song, as it states facts, not assumptions.



maybe it holds true for the Moors - what about the Spaniards then??? did the true freedom apply to them as well?



again, I'll pass on the pejorative remark regarding the longhaired barbarian. Whatever floats the boat (Prince's boat,that is).

However, the world "never" when it comes to history always looks suspicious, as it does to me in this context.



The sentiments of the lyrics are as important to me as they somehow refer to the currently growing (as I perceive) opposition between the islamic and western civilisations.

The negative feelings held by the islamic (mostly Arabic) world against Europe and America seem to be definitely derative from the experience of the Crusades and the war with the Moors of Spain. This is, however, history, which although used for politics too often and with too many errors, should be studied with open mind and the acceptance that there is no one nation in this world that can look at its history without shame. That including the Moors, any European nation, Chinese, Africans, Americans etc.

That's why there is not much sense, in my opinion, to bring to the light the shameful past of one party to show that the other one is all in glory. Because the other is not. Therefore, the lyrics sound one-sided (apart from obvious errors and misleading rhetoric) and might be, by many, considered racist and/or hateful. Which, might in a way, allow me to say sadly that in this respect the lyrics and the message here are a miss.

stymie said: Who are you talking about?

good question, stymie...jahare you addressing that comment to everyone who posted in this thread and doesn't think that these "lyrics" (the quotation marks are NECESSARY) are amazing?

i understand what it's like to be in a minority group and to hear ignorant people slander you left and right...believe me, i do.

however, i don't see many people on this thread that have said anything that could be considered racist.

my objection to these lyrics is primarily an artistic one: they are clumsy, heavy-handed and uninspiring. i almost want to convince myself that it's a joke...that prince could never write anything so awful, let alone post them without any music to give them any sort of context. even GOOD song lyrics usually look silly without the music.

and if some people think these lyrics are insightful or inspiring or whatever else...great, i'm glad for you. honestly. i'm sure there are plenty of prince songs whose lyrics make me wanna cum that you don't care for.

however, i think SOMEone needs to tell prince that this kinda juvenile, culty, "look-larry-taught-me-how-to-read-and-everything" lyric-writing is only going to further diminish his artistic reputation.

and Sensual Melody - it scares me that you think prince has more of a right to express his opinion than any other human being on this planet. plenty of his fans are artists, and you don't have to be an artist to stand up for what you believe in. i suggest you look up "idolatry" in the dictionary. yeah, you know that OTHER book.

Sensual Melody said: Prince I may not agree with all you say...but you have as much right as anybody to say it.
Maybe more...You do have poetic license. You are an artist, after all.

NuPwrSoul said:

yeah it's polemic all - i use it becuase i feel it's right in keeping with prince's 'long haired barbarians' epithet. fitting eh?

so, NwPwrSoul, what exactly did you think of the moorish invasion of spain? those peace-loving folks whose swords would have stayed sheathed ? i notice you don't address that issue nor the fallacy of prince's lyrics. .

jimipaisley said:

How do you know? Arabic culture is still alive, but it has stopped eveolving some 500 years ago. Where have you been Prince?
So, oaky the Moors we are actually Africans. What is your point in clarifying that? Are you mad that Afrcian culture gets too little acknowledgement in history? Is that why the rest of this text is so downgrading the "barbaric" Europeans? Don't get me wrong dude. I know the Moors were much more evolved in their society than the Europeans during the Dark Middle Ages, but that is a long time ago and Europe catched up and brought the Age of Reason. Have you ever realised how much we are influenced by that Age? Why don't you write a text about too? Would be cool, so we don't get a one-sided picture of history.

So masters of arts and industry makes you "free"? How poor, "truly free". Define "freedom" and then maybe we can talk. Now you are just throwing out your catchy phrases, thinking you make sense.


Wer5e the Greeks really Africans? Who told you so? Can you prove it?



Surely that is why the Roman Empire lasted for more than 1000 years and still influences the entire world up in many ways.

So the Moors didn't fight any wars eh? ALL European were barbaric right? The Moors never supressed their own people who didn't beleive like the majority eh? Ever heard of the Reformation in Europe? It was the first step into what we call religious freedom. It is the reason why there was room for something like Protestant belief, or JW belief. Up untill this day, there are many schools in Islam that don't accept this kind of freedom. Now define the freedom you are talking about, please.


That is true and widely acknowledged.


so your point is?


How do you know? Were you there? No. How can you tell they were "free" there and hardly had any prisoners in the mind of society? You don't know that. Define freedom and then maybe we can undertsand eachother.


WT...???


There we go again... "barbarian". Generalising your "truth". Like: the Moors were all peacefull, but those Catholics just wanted to mureder them all. Had they understood the Moors we would have all been better off. Ever heard of "nuance"? It is french.
Really poorly phrased man. It shows that you haven't learned anything from "holocaust aside, etc, etc" You are still "barbaric" in the way you JUDGE others and the way you think you are some "authority" on history and religion.



WT... We are living TODAY Prince, NOT hundreds of years ago.

XxAxX said:

Actually it's not fitting to use a white supremacist website and suggest it equates anything to what Prince is doing with his VS. room lyrics. That site calls for racial purity, the defense of "whites' land," and bemoans any racial mix at all.

"Long haired barbarian" is now an epithet? Please. Were there not a people who called themselves barbarians in history? The term only has a negative connotation because of what they did. Like the Hordes of central asia.

Even if you find the term mean spirited (though I still don't see it as such) how is that the equivalent of posting rubbish from a white supremacist site here that advocates white racial purity?



Obviously it was a military conquest. Where does Prince claim the Moors were "peace loving"? He says that a higher expression of civilization was introduced to Spain during their reign; he suggests that fighting them would bring about a "peace that would not last," i.e., an unending war.

Where does he say they were peace loving? Are you so inflamed by the reference to Europe's relative barbarity at the time that you are now seeing things that are not written?

I absolutely REFUSE to use the white supremacist crap that you posted as the basis to examine Prince's lyrics critically. I'd prefer to use something like Stanley Lane Poole's "The Moors of Spain" or the writings of Ivan Van Sertima in his "Journals of African Civilization" series... neither of which seeks to establish racial purity or racial supremacy.

At least Agarze took the time to engage the lyrics directly specifically pointing out where s/he felt it was weak... see THAT I can respect even if I don't agree with the conclusions Agarze draws, I can at least see the reasoning behind it and possibly reconcile my views with what s/he's posting.

But that racist shit you posted? Don't get it twisted--my is in no way to make light of the gravity of what that site seeks to promote. I hope you don't either.

I think Prince implies they are peaceful by saying that we would be more advanced and by describing the opposers as barbarians.

With all due respect NuPwrsoul...

any weight your argument may have carried at the start of your Prince defence act has dissapeared by the simple fact that,no matter what anyone says, your too quick to say "nope - your wrong!!"

Do you really agree with everything Prince ever does or says...somebody call the Stalker Hotline!!!
[This message was edited Wed May 21 11:03:05 PDT 2003 by purpledoveuk]

Abrazo said:Prince's verses in bold)If this great African culture were alive 2day
We’d b 400 years more advanced


Agreed it is a hyperbolic statement when taken literally. The spirit and ethos of Moorish Spain, however, is what Prince seems to be celebrating in this song.



Does his attempt to correct the marginalization of Africans in world history necessarily mean that he is angry? Seems to me most of the anger has come from the response to his attempt to do so.



But is he talking about today's Europeans when he contrasts the Moors with Europe? Is he saying the Moors of the past compared to the Europe of today? I don't think so.

Does Prince need to write a text extolling the virtues of European culture and contributions to world history? Has that contribution been overlooked in the way that African contributions have?

Masters of the Arts and all industry
While France, England and all Germany
Wallowed in the mire of their own bigotry
The Moors were the ones who were truly free



I'll grant that "free" may be too vague; however following the line on "bigotry" I took it to reference the relative religious freedom for religious minorities in Spain at the time which did not exist elsewhere.

Civilization came 2 Europe thru the Greek
Who were simply Africans who came from the Nile


I have never heard that the Greeks were Africans. However, Martin Bernal documented in "Black Athena" that much of Greek culture and civilization was inspired by and borrowed from what the Africans in the Nile River Valley had developed. So whether the people came from there or not, a lot of their culture seems to have done so.

The Greeks gave it 2 Rome who lost their way home
And it stayed that way 4 quite a while




Yes that, the consolidation of a state religion, and the force of a powerful military has something to do with it as well.

Under their own misconception of Christianity
The barbaric (?) Europeans suffered greatly
While the Catholic Church was staking it’s claim
The Moors were making great gains



Does he say this?



Before the Reformation, religious minorities enjoyed religious freedom under Islam's golden age relative to what would be suffered in other parts of the world, including Europe leading up to the Reformation. And even after the Protestant Reformation, there were still groups who had to flee for their religious freedom.

Certainly, the majority of the world of Islam has long departed from the freedoms and level of civilization that it was once known for during it's golden age, and many reformers and progressives within that community are urging their co-religionists to re-examine their own history (including the Moors in Spain) in order to ground a new age of pluralism and freedom that is rooted in their own tradition.


Introducing strawberries, lemons and sugarcane
Algebra, chemistry from the Moors this all came
Their contributions 2 knowledge, 2 numerous 2 name


While in Europe there were no public libraries, the Moors in Spain
Had 70, 600 thousand manuscripts and 17 universities



Possibly to point out the different priorities of the two societies relative to each other?

Not hardly a prisoner in the mind of society
In the Spain the Moors were once truly free



Again, it's vague. But I take that he's referring to the spirit that is necessary for that kind of civilization to fluorish. In the history of societies, certain things were prerequisite before they could turn their attentions to cultivating certain things like universities, libraries, etc. A certain level of security, knowledge, education, training, literacy, etc. A society that is constantly at war or is more concerned with consolidating land and power does not have the resources or time to devote to building in that way until they have first taken care of business.

Europe was in a consolidating mode. The last thing on anyone's mind at the time was reproducing manuscripts. It was only after relative stability did Europe have the chance to turn its attention to these matters.

The one who is most gifted cannot lead the way in a world that never respected authority…


Yeah me too. I think I have an idea but it's too tentative right now.

The sword of the Moor would have never left its sheath if the longhaired barbarian who opposed them would have only seen


Would "warriors" have been better? "crusaders"? I never knew the word "barbarian" when used in a historical context was such an explosive term. It seems to be hanging up many people here though. Relative to the Moors, it does seem that for the roughly 700 year period that they reigned over Europe, that the Europeans level of civilization was far below that of the Moors.

That 2 win a war against the so-called “black infidels”
Brings about a peace that cannot last
But I guess all’s well that ends well… well it ain’t over


Did he say we are not living today? Are you saying there are no lessons to be learned from history? "It ain't over" does seem to point to the fact that the story is still being written... that we still have possibility and choice for the future that the die is not cast.

Quote Fix Edit.
[This message was edited Wed May 21 11:13:14 PDT 2003 by NuPwrSoul]