It's been I don't even know how many months since the web site launched. There certainly is plenty to complain about, such as Discojellyfish disappearing as soon as the site launched (I sure wish I had saved it), the lack the 10 CDs of vault material that was mentioned before launch, etc.

But I thought it'd look at the site a different way and look at what we have gotten and what some sort of reasonable value is for it thus far

Early access to the albums. They sold for $12 at target, but there were two complete, and quite good, prince albums. Ignore the other album, I suspect most people who joined the site on launch day would have easily paid for a digital copy of the album for the same $12 price and then still bought the target copy. So lets value the early access at $12.

The t-shirt. At a concert, something like this would sell for at least $25. But not everyone would have bought the shirt, and some who got it will never wear it, so it's hard to value it at that. Lets bump that down to $10 which seems a reasonable estimate of an average value to subscribers.

Other Music. Thus far there's only been 1 track that wasn't on the Target albums. As a digital download, the value is roughly $1

Single Song Live Videos. There are quite a few single song videos that have never been release before. Live performances such as Creep, Large Room, LRC live, etc. In addition there are various TV performances and Probably enough to make a DVD, but it's not quite DVD quality. The value for this is roughly $10 (I went by the cost of a digital download of Purple Rain the movie on iTunes.)

Music videos. I didn't count them, but probably enough songs for a DVD, so another $10. You might bump this down a tad.

Long videos. Sacrifice of Victor and The Undertaker. Perhaps because they have been floating around they aren't really getting the attention they should as these are both outstanding. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the first time the Undertaker has been legally available? The Sacrifice of Victor has been released before, but I believe it was only on Laser Disc. I just know whatever format it was, I don't have the equipment to watch my copy. Certainly worth $10 each.

Add it all up, and I get roughly $63 worth of material. I wouldn't have bought the t-shirt, but I would have bought digital copies of everything else had it been released on iTunes.

So despite falling well short of expectations, and once again developing a needlessly difficult to use web site (can't sequence videos, have to hunt for them in the sphere, etc.), there has actually been a somewhat reasonable value of material delivered for the money spent given there is still a half a year or so for more things to trickle out.

Given all of that, the two mysteries to me are

- why do these web sites/music clubs get worse each year. Easily the best value was the first year of the NPGMC where there was a monthly release of previously unreleased music along with the NPG Audio shows that often had other unreleased music.

- why does he insist on doing it all himself instead of embracing iTunes where he would get better visibility and sell more material. Given that he his is own label, he really can't be coming out ahead after paying for servers, bandwidth, software development and maintenance, credit card fees, customer support, etc.

Surely the biggest mystery is why so many people forked out $77 for membership bearing in mind Prince's track record on commercial enterprises.

Prince has stated that he doesn't like iTunes' fee structure in regards to an artist's percentage of sales. So it's not a wonder why he chose to develop his own means of web distribution. I think he found out the hard way that it's not as easy as it looks. Now he has to have someone on the payroll to maintain a site that doesn't bring in any new members or generate revenue.

That's not an iTunes issue, that's a record label issue. Prince should have learned long ago (NPGMC year 1) that Apple's fee 30% is reasonable for the service they provide. It really should be a lower percentage than the fees that are collected along the way to get a retail single or album to the store.

Since he's his own label, it's not an issue for him - he gets the full 70%.

alandail said:

'The Undertaker' was released here in Europe on VHS and I already have that and 'The Sacrifice of Victor' VHS. So to me, a digital version of these I can only view and cannot download and in worse quality than ancient VHS tapes is pretty much worthless to me. Same goes for all previously released videos.

And of course I haven't got my t-shirt yet.


I keep looking for the 'Refund' button on the website but I can't find it. Anyone?

Less than ZERO

alandail said:

Because Sam is no longer working with him.

squirrelgrease said:

which is his own fault. if he'd offer something worthy of purchasing on the
site, many more people would sign up.

from the very start his website should have been for free, with extra bonus
content that could come at a price. or better yet, have the whole site be a
promotional tool and sell your product in a retail section.

you know, like 95% of the artists with an online presence do it.

with a regularly updated shop, featuring soundboard recordings of complete
shows, outtakes, and new material, or stuff like his version of songs he's
given to other people, interest in the site would be continuous.

coupled to a constantly updated news section, some more inside info, a few
interviews etc, the traffic on the site would be at least 300% of what it
is these days.

if a new album showed up in the store, people would actually go over there
and BUY it. because access was easy and a download could be secured at the
very minute you heard the news.

but now, with a 77 dollar subscription, all those who didn't sign up in the
initial feeding frenzy in march, are far less likely to sign up once he'll
decide to finally throw something like another album on that site. they're
more likely to sit it out for a hot minute and download that album once it
will leak somewhere else (which it is bound to do since so many of the ppl
who are now members are extremely disgruntled and will do whatever they can
to fck prince off at this point).

not saying that's what i would do since i'm still of a mind that, hey i did
pay 77 dollars so whatever comes, comes and i ain't sharing

he shot himself in the foot. not once but thrice. this is no longer about a
shitty website, this is about long lasting suicide of his web presence.

if he ever wants to have a decent website or sell enough of his product to
the online community he's gonna have to realise that doing things the way
he's doing them now is absolutely wrong.

it's prince and he probably feels he can do what he wants (and he can) but
a reality check is really long overdue.

PopeLeo said:

I didn't realize The Undertaker had been released in europe.

And the videos can be downloaded by members (they just don't make it easy). Not only that, the user agreement for the site specifically allows for the videos to be downloaded, but not burned to DVD.



and



http://www.lotusflow3r.com/terms.html
[Edited 9/7/09 12:36pm]

freakyfeet said:

the mystery to me is how so many people don't pay the membership fee then self-justify stealing the content.

This comment is not aimed at anyone who didn't join and hasn't tried to track down the members content such as Creep, LRC, etc. The ones who do somehow self-justify stealing this stuff without joining are contributing to the problem. It certainly doesn't help encourage Prince to put exclusive content online if most people steal it instead of paying for it.

I suspect not one person who says they can't afford the $77 would pass up a chance to go to a Prince concert for $77.

If Prince had a fascination with the number 3 then it could have cost 33 dollars and people would have still complained. Too many fans want free product with every release Prince puts out. Most of us have obtained more than a little bit of unreleased material from the man and never gave him a dime for it. It's petty to nickel and dime the issue of what you got for the 77 dollars. I've spent thousands on bootlegs since 1989 and never felt cheated by the less than perfect sound quality or the unprofessional video shot. It's about the man and the music. Lotusflow3r.com is what it is and hopefully it will grow in time but watching it daily and waitng for something to happen is setting yourself up for disappointment. They've issued e-mails whenever they've added video or offered something.
[Edited 9/7/09 19:09pm]

You certainly offer a different perspective. However, I think the main area where the site fails is that it offers no reason for fans to visit. The site is updated, if we are lucky, once a month. I don't think it is unreasonable for fans to expect weekly, if not daily, updates to the site. I'm not necessarily saying that I expect a brand new song available for download every day but the site is extremely lacking in content. Compared to the vast majority of artists, most of whom give fans at least partial access for free, the lotusflow3r site is a pretty poor experience.

u know.....i just thought about all the unreleased stuff i have and now i do kinda feel the price was not that bad

you guys are seriously suffering from battered wife syndrome.

"i guess i deserved it, after all, i did leave the dishes on the sink"

stop making excuses for that lousy site. whatever came before
has nothing to do with the shitty content and non communication
of lotusflower.com.

japanrocks said:

Well, that makes sense for you....But what about all of us who haven't gone after his unreleased stuff, and thought that finally, good things will come to those of us who have waited?

What does that teach us?. I guess it's "Do the right thing and get screwed!"

I don't mean to be bitter....really.

shellyann said:

You "honestly" don't have any bootleg material?
No unreleased tracks?
No live show recordings?
No concert footage?

HonestMan13 said:

Honestly, No! I have seen some material on sites before it was taken down, but have never downloaded any.What? Am I the only one?

I am so upset (and this is getting stronger each day since March I'm spending without getting anything worth ONE fucking dollar), I'm seriously thinking about sueing the damn company for fraud business.

There's no excuse anymore, and everybody here who's satisfied with a jerking 12th gen copy of the Uptown promo clip should enjoy watching it or shut the f up.

I've spent f'in 77 dollars, and i didn't get ANYTHING yet i would have paid a f'in dollar for. I would NEVER pay for an online stream which i couldn't even download or watch at my TV. Damn, it's not 1993 anymore! And I would NEVER EVER have paid a single buck for a single song video from any concert. NEVER! And stuff the ridiculous shirt in your bum... And if you're into the site, do you like your exclusive PICTURES you paid 77 bucks for? Do you really do? I don't know exactly who's more fool, the asshole or the fool who follows the asshole. But I have a clue....

Damn, and finally: DON'T EVER TELL ME AGAIN TO STOP MOANING! I was formally betrayed, i was promised things i never got and don't tell me an F'in word about patience again. All you shitholes bragging about how unthankful the P community is, get yourself in order and get a life... Do you still notice anything? Or to put it the other way around: Don't you notice something YET?!

OK, that was me with my monthly rant. Could anybody more gentle take over please?

shellyann said:

No, I think there are 2 other Prince fans like you, one in Australia and one in Cambodjia, both never downloaded anything. But if Prince decides to fuck his fans in the face for another year, I'm damn sure bootleg labels will take over the complete Prince related companies and outdo any record label, because that guy is SYSTEMATICALLY driving his "fan community" into bootlegs. Now who's going to question that?

FunkyDissCo said:

Honestly, in the last couple of months, I have actually thought about it, but because we are not allowed to ask, I have only a little clue about where to begin.I am sad that I have never been able to see or listen to so many great things people rave about here on the org.I would be more than happy to pay big money if Prince would make things available; what is wrong with him!

shellyann said:

I won't tell you where to look and I can't. But try google and use they keywords for what you're looking for. If you use the same google as me, you'll find paradise in about 10 seconds.

FunkyDissCo said:

Thanks! I have never tried before but you know what..I am going to give it a shot right now!

if you ask me i think all yall deserve a damn refund

shellyann said:

Ok, I did it! I just listened to "The Dance," by Renato. I have always wanted to hear this again since "3121 Jazz Cuisine." It was amazing! What is wrong with me, instead of feeling vindicated, I feel guilty! ...But I loved it none-the-less.

FunkyDissCo said:

you can download the videos and watch them offline. I posted the relevant portiona of the terms of service that specifically say videos can be downloaded, but can't be burned to DVD. And iPod or iPhone with a video dock solves the watching on TV issue without burning a DVD.

alandail said:

Cheers mate, I know. But that doesn't change anything about the points I made. The videos are still crap quality and contentwise nothing of it i would have paid for. I already had Undertaker and Sacrifice of Victor on official VHS tapes and there is no need for me to spend hours to convert flv files to have a copy which is worse. The thing is: you can't sell youtube clips for 77$, and i would NEVER pay a damn dollar for anything streaming which i can download through the backdoor... I think I'm not the only one who expected something more...

why would anyone want a refund? we didn't sign up for that, we signed up for
new material.

before i call for a refund i want to keep shouting and emailing them that we
want more material. if nothing comes i'll think about asking for a refund on
1st april 2010.

for now i'm still just hoping to see some of that "10 albums worth of never
before released material".

IstenSzek said:

All they'd need to do is leak the link of the ZIP file that contains the MP3s or the WAVs.

HonestMan13 said:

Again: that's PRINCE's fault. Plenty of bands have been doing for a decade and longer what we'd have been asking for. Unedited, CD-quality soundboard recordings of current and past concerts, Deluxe editions of classic CDs including previously unreleased content,...

Prince could have re-issued Purple Rain two/three/four times, each time improving the audio and/or adding more goodies, and tons of people would have bought those items each time. Ditto for just about every of his 1980s albums. He could have done a "Bootleg"-series like Dylan, or an "Archives"-series like Neil Young.

Just look at the enthusiasm about the recent Japan-reissues: contained ZERO new stuff, weren't remastered, and yet people LOVED those.

Simply by making his back catalog available in up to date remastered quality he would gain TONS of love. If he was to also release all of the 12" and 7" mixes on CD: even more love -- I'd love to get him to do something like Duran Duran's "Singles" box sets, or even better Depeche Mode's box sets: http://boxsets.depechemod...index.html . And if he'd also re-release those on vinyl: even more love.

But handing out a re-recording of IALRWNL to the Montreux Jazz Festival so they can put it on their website and not selling it online, is just inviting bootleggers to appropriate it for their own profit. There are plenty of bootlegs out there that largely consist or music that was only available online and that can't even be purchased these days. Worse: in some cases people had purchased it but can't play it anymore. Again: bootleggers laughing their asses off.

25 years ago Purple Rain was released, and the only people to take notice were frikking SPIN magazine. That's what happens when you let your legacy go down the drain.

BartVanHemelen said:

i know. the security of that site was 0.0 on the launch date.

don't know if it's improved by now. i never visit anymore