Yikes! I hope that we can at least agree that lotusflow3r.com, thus far, is not living up to it's potential. I believe that for $77.00 most of us were expecting more than what we got so far. Whether you like his music or not I think that it is fair to say that Trent's fans are much happier with his current online presence than Prince's fans are with his.
[Edited 7/9/09 11:20am]

OK, I'd vouch that I'm the best person to add my 2cents into this thread and here's why.

1. Prince and NIN are two of my favorite artists of all time. Prince is my favorite artist of all time and NIN is in my top 5. I'm a much bigger Prince fan than I am an NIN fan but I'm still a big NIN fan.

2. I'm a professional musician myself (currently signed to EMI with my band) and our internet presence is very much a key part of our operation. It ties together with everything that we do, from releasing music to live shows, etc.

3. I'm a professional web designer and social media expert on the side. I've designed sites and given my Web2.0 expertise to companies like the BBC and major record labels. I've given guest lectures at prominent universities here in the UK on the internet and the future business model of the industry (and in my lectures, I talk about both Prince AND Trent)


OK, so with that out of the way let's get into this.

Prince WAS an internet pioneer. As we all know, he broke ground with things like the NPGMC and he fully deserved the Webby's he won in the past.

Problem is the internet and the methods in which we communicate is the fastest changing medium on the planet. Literally every second, the internet is changing, and where we're at today is radically different to even a year ago.

Look at something like Twitter, for example. I remember signing up to Twitter back in 2007, and even up till a year ago it was still the private club of the tech-savvy. Now it's quite possibly the most important site on the internet (some of you will not understand this yet, but that's OK). News breaks on Twitter before anywhere else. Literally every single piece of information you hear about in any form of media has been discussed to death on Twitter before you even heard about it. And that's just ONE site.

Prince abandoned the internet in late 2007 and never came back. But what about Lotusflow3r.com, I hear you say?

Well, listen up. I love Prince and he could probably put up a blank page and I'd still pay to access it. I just love that little purple MF. I know a lot of people here feel the same, hell isn't that why we post here? On top of that, I've defended the site in the sense that I feel that Prince will put SOMETHING up to make it worth the $77, cos right now, unless you are a diehard fan (as I am), it probably isn't worth it for what's available.

Now, this next bit is hard for me because I hate to criticize Prince. But really, I'm not, because I feel that Prince is only accountable for what he does - and what he does is make music, and I love the new album set. So really I'm criticizing his web team.

Lotusflow3r.com....well....it sucks. It's not a website of 2009. It's not even a website of 2008 or 2007. It's convoluted, messy, bloated and more or less a waste of time. I've probably logged in less than 5 times since registering and downloading the albums in March.

Y'know, I'd forgive the ridiculous method of registration, the wasted time of watching pointless loading screens and clicking god-knows-where to find something that should be quite blatantly obvious from the beginning, if there was a wealth of content. But there isn't. Once you've got your three albums and watched the 3 new videos, where does that leave you? A bunch of pictures most of which were in the 21 nights book, some classic videos that anyone with "The Hits Collection" on DVD already has and can watch in better quality with more ease of access, and a handful of live videos, which admittedly are very cool but nobody is going to go through the process of logging in and loading the site, then clicking the ball, then waiting for the thumbnails, then locating the video you want to watch more than once.

There's nothing pioneering about this. It's ass-backwards, hell if anyone outside of Prince fans actually went into that site, Prince being an internet pioneer would the exact opposite of what they were thinking. The site hasn't been updated in months. Ticket exclusives are cool, but pointless to people living outside of places like LA where most TV shows are filmed.

Now let's move onto Trent Reznor and NIN.

The same year that Prince was plotting to exit the internet completely and sue any site hosting his content, Trent co-ordinated an online ARG (alternate reality game) the likes of which I have never seen. It was incredible. Literally, thousands of fans worldwide become involved without even trying. Fans finding USB sticks on bathroom floors at shows with new music and links to cryptic websites. A deeply-woven tale of a future being destroyed by totalitarian governments, nuclear war and drugs in the water. Almost every day fans were finding new clues. Some lucky fans discovered clues that led them to gather in a certain place, only to be whisked away in a van to a secret location.....where NIN promptly appeared on a stage for a secret show, to support to the anti-establishment cause created by this entire "Year Zero" world. In all my years on this earth I have NEVER seen anyone engage their fan community like this. Never. In fact this is what turned me from someone who liked some of NIN's music into a dedicated fan.

But it wasn't to stop there. NIN's website grew into the most fan-friendly website I've ever seen. Forums, Galleries (both pictures and video that are not only official pictures....but any NIN pictures or videos that fans want to upload). An entire remix section with multitracks available to download of much of NIN's catalogue. Remix competitions. Video competitions. And most importantly, what Trent did next with "Ghosts" and "The Slip" - that is, offering standard quality MP3's for free - but tiered-levels of higher quality uncompressed audio, CD's, vinyl, limited edition artwork, DVD's available for varying price degrees. And the whole time, gathering an email address from each fan (whether they pay for the music or opt for the free version), building up what must be an incessantly huge database of people that would and will flock to anything Trent does in the future. In one swoop, Trent has eliminated any need for NIN fans to go elsewhere, such as torrent sites etc.

Trent has embraced social media and pioneered a model that all musicians can follow, big or small. He is absolutely open and accessible to his fans, both on his own forum and places like Twitter. (even though there people who seem to relish in the fact that that openness allows them to criticize that persons PRIVATE life directly to them.....hey iwonderu007, since you seem to enjoy criticizing Mariqueen, can you explain the difference between her and Bria? As far as I can see, they're both vocalists, dating rockstars, with sexual skeletons in their closet....or were you unaware that Bria was a stripper and has supposedly ran through a few well known people in Hollywood?)

On top of that, Trent went out of his way to ALLOW video recording at the most recent NIN tour. Prince's security at the O2 were snatching people's damn camera phones, like anybody would even get a decent picture from one anyway LOL)....What else? Oh yeah, NIN mobile app (iphone with Android and Blackberry in development)....

You know the head of techdirt.com even gave a lecture at MIDEM (the biggest music industry conference) about Trent and how he's changed the music business model. You should watch it, here:

.

I mean, I could go on. But before you reply - remember, as I said at the beginning, I too am a Prince loyalist. I'm happy with whatever he decides to do.....but if I he just did half the things Trent has been doing the last 2 years, I'd be ecstatic.

There's absolutely no contest to it. In the PRESENT, as in RIGHT NOW - Trent Reznor is a pioneer and there's is nobody ahead of him in thinking of new strategies for musicians on the internet.

Prince should be applauded for the things he did 5-10 years ago in pioneering music and online business models right now, but the unfortunate fact is that the Internet is not even the same place anymore and Prince's finger is FAR from the button when it comes to this.

I'd appreciate intelligent responses, and I don't have time for any ridiculous, irrelevant personal attacks on me, Trent, his character, his family, etc etc etc, likely to come from obsessives who simply cannot stomach the truth. If you can wake up and smell the coffee - you will see that I'm right. Perhaps it might be easier to hear this from me, than someone like Bart, who, although he is speaking the truth in this thread, has been known to rub people the wrong way in the past. I'm a Prince fan through and through, and I'm just calling it how I see it.

iwonderu007 said:

Keep on dreaming. By way of lacking security we have a pretty good idea of (exactly) how many paying members Prince had for previous online ventures. Based on those numbers, and given the facts that failur3.com is way more expensive, far less accessible and isn't selling tickets for a tour, even 10k subscribers sounds a bit optimistic.

Efan said:

I'm not into Madonna at all, but a few weeks ago I spent some time researching artist's sites, and I was really impressed with hers. I think i spent 20 minutes just on her Candy Wall.

Militant said:

This was a great video! Thanks for posting it.I just wish Prince would watch it and realize there is a new business model- one that doesn't alienate fans that gives them a reason to buy!

Militant said:

fantastic post.

brilliant stuff-fantastic read.

unfortunately-i'd bet $'s Prince would say Trent could teach him nothing-he'd say ''I did all that years ago-why should i repeat myself'',,,,

whilst i'd agree years back-prince online was great-now it's plainly not-BUT obviously Prince thinks diffrent

My money is on he thought/thinks he's been generous to us-we're ungrateful-have pissed him right off-and now he's ran off to find some new toys to use and abuse

There has to be a reason they stopped ALL replies-not just to complaints-they still don't reply-on any subject. That is no oversight. It's a message-as was the 2 vids by end of june-then we get only one-and no stupid cryptic Lotusmail to say why

it's done 'n' dusted

BartVanHemelen said:

Get your facts straight Bart.

Oh and what is this "S.O.S."-thing you keep referring to?

polkadotbliss said:

What video did we get in June? Did I miss something? The last video was May 22nd,(The Sacrifice of Victor) and now we are at 8 weeks with nothing new!

lol

sacrifice was before june-in June we got first The Undertaker (the released version we've all seen/own) and a few got a mail saying we don't want to spoil your suprise but there will definately be TWO vids added by end of June

PS-we got the mail in response to us asking why its so dead

BACK WHEN THEY REPLIED-beforen they got swamped with complaints I'd guess
[Edited 7/10/09 10:51am]

Oh God, another Trent Reznor thread again. Yeah, the Lotusflow3r site sucks, we know this but all the bitching in the world is not going to make Prince do any of the things TR does on his site. Y'all can keep on trying to "wake Prince up" if you want but it's in vain.

lol

so why if its 'another TR thread' -why bother being like that-why reply when you don't care for the subject matter?

just thinkin' out loud

polkadotbliss said:

Because it's all I see all over the place and it's as tiring as these "When is Prince going to talk about MJ?" threads. It's pointless

Think out loud on that

lol

is that the new wild sign

iwonderu007 said:

Have read all your posts, responses and laughable, inane comments. You're an ignorant little fool, aren't you?

MartyMcFly said:

If you go back and read the post that Bart was responding to the poster mentioned David Letterman as one of the shows that Prince recently appeared on. Prince last appeared on Letterman performing "Dinner With Delores" so I'm guessing that would have been around July, 1996. I'm guessing that the poster just confused Letterman with Leno, no big deal, but Bart was correct in what he said.

polkadotbliss said:

You are correct that sacrifice was way before June.I got my videos mixed up!The Undertaker was posted May 22nd, according to the sticky update thread.So it has been 8 weeks since we have had an update! Unbelievable!

iwonderu007 said:

What woman did Trent bash?

iwonderu007 said:

Also, I would bet that Prince had more than 10,000 people sign up on his last campaign. More like millions of people signed up. You don't sell out 21 nights in London (one city) without a HUGE fanbase that turns to Prince's website for info.

Ha, Ha, ha! Just look up the traffic report; you'll laugh too!

Vendetta1 said:

and courtney love doesn't count.

Anxiety said:

Hell I don't think folks wanna be bringing up how anybody treats women with Prince's history.

Militant said:

let's not forget Trent putting out a couple of live videos, like, you know, 405 GIGS of HD footage of 3 shows, for fans to remix and create their own DVDs (let alone extract the audio with perfect soundboard sound), all for free.

But TBH, allowing people to tape is nothing new, see the grateful dead.

Prince gives you VHS rips of videos everybody's already seen. In mono. (I hope that's been fixed ).

lotussucker.com was just a quick cash grab for prince, nothing else, he must have been behind in his rental payment or something. I wonder if the web designers even got paid, they said they didn't know much at all about prince, that would suggest they were not aware he seldom pays on time when at all.

kitkatau said:

Actually it wasn't Trent that recorded all that HD footage, it was a group of hardcoe NIN fans.

Here's their site - http://www.thisoneisonus.org/

Militant said:

No, he wasn't. He never did anything that hadn't been done before, and usually it had been done BETTER before. Instead, he did a lot of things that people like me predicted would turn out to be rubbish. Using QuickTime + Java, having fans run your websites, NOT settling one on URL/web presence, going about it on a project by project base, hiring people because they were cheap/free, using DRM WMA/WMV,...

Militant said:

Disagree.

Militant said:

Bullcrap. There's tons of stuff on Twitter that comes from blogs. MJ's death wasn't on Twitter, it was on a prominent gossip blog, and it only became "real" when a major news organization confirmed it.

Very rarely there's some instant news on Twitter, and it is an important medium, but overhyping it isn't doing any good.

Militant said:

But it didn't come out of nowhere. This has been going on for over a decade. NIN.com has been Trent's web presence from the start, and it has always been a worthwhile place. Also, he has smart fans, because he doesn't sue them into complacency. There are plenty of smart Prince fans, but most of them have gone quiet and plenty of them have left places like the Org long ago, because there's too much DUMB. Compare this to Echoing The Sound, where being a dumbass simply isn't tolerated and where knowledge and skill and insight is appreciated.

Militant said:

Nonsense. There are LOTS of unofficial sites where you can download entire NIN concerts etc. Trent simply doesn't give a fuck, as long as there's no official stuff. Hell, he himself distributed three "NIN Compilations" on The Pirate Bay, plus two DVDs that he couldn't get officially released.

Militant said:

Bullcrap. He wasn't pioneering anything, and there were no business models.

MartyMcFly said:

When was Prince last on Letterman?

MartyMcFly said:

Figure it out.

Militant said:

Dude, don't make a fool of yourself. TRENT had three gigs filmed at the end of 2008, and released the raw footage as three torrents totaling 405 GBs.

iwonderu007 said:

YOU said that Prince already has a huge database of emails. Yet when LF.com was pre-launched, fans had to ONCE AGAIN provide an email address where they would be contacted.

But that's the problem when you make up shit in your mind: it's hard to keep track of that.

iwonderu007 said:

Ah, so Leno = Letterman. Way to make your point.

Oh yeah, and to anyone who thinks Prince will succeed where the record industry has failed for over a decade, watch this:

http://www.vimeo.com/5229486

And read this (the article the video refers to):

http://www.shirky.com/web...thinkable/

BartVanHemelen said:

Yeah, he made mistakes. But regardless he was one of the first major artists to embrace the internet as a distribution medium at all. The things you mentioned are minutae compared to the overall picture. Breaking new ground means you'll make a few mistakes along the way.



Here is where I disagree. You mentioned one thing (MJ's death). There are plenty of other news stories that HAVE broken on Twitter. And if even stories don't necessarily break on Twitter, it is the mass medium whereby the majority of people (online) will be the first to hear the news. I knew it was real before news organisations confirmed it, anyone with half a brain did because TMZ has major corporate backing from AOL and they have people EVERYWHERE.

I don't feel I'm overhyping it, but each to their own.




I like ETS, although again for your average NIN fan, the NIN forums made it redundant. I frequent both, personally. The flipside of your argument is that yes, while ETS doesn't tolerate stupidity, it can be very intimidating to newer fans with an almost elitist air. Honestly, at times it can feel like you're a fucking noob if you can't name every single "Halo" in order, off the top of your head. But it's still a cool forum.




I'm fully aware of that. I remember when Trent was uploading torrents to The Pirate Bay, because I downloaded them all at the time. I was happy to see a DVD of "Closure" get out in some form.

I should have been more clear. I was referring to average fans of NIN who are only interested in hearing the latest music. Obviously, bigger fans like you and I will scour the torrent sites for as much NIN as we can find.




Again, I disagree, and let's leave it at that. Maybe they weren't substantial business models compared to what Trent is doing now but there were certainly methods at work that other artists felt like they could follow, after Prince had done them, and that's certainly commendable in my book.

I'm not sure if you realized this.....but I'm more or less on the same side as you here when it comes to NIN and Prince
Perhaps it might be more worthwhile for you to not preach to the converted, and instead drop a few jewels that someone like iwonderu007 could pick up on.




I'm just going by what Trent himself said. The original blog post he wrote said that he "was contacted by a shadow group of subversives" who had filmed this footage. Maybe he could avoid problems/not seem egotistical by not taking credit for it, but from what I know of Trent, he wouldn't give a fuck and would just come out and claim responsibility for it. I'll continue to believe that he was not directly responsible for all that footage until I see some hard evidence to suggest otherwise.
[Edited 7/12/09 15:20pm]

BartVanHemelen said:[quote]

MartyMcFly said: