Anyone who's calling pro-active disatisfied club members "complainers" and "whiners" care to address the issues of Sabaisabai? - or is he just another scapegoat for the Club's failures this year?

I don't think that anyone who's taking umbrage with the service (or lack of it) that they recieved this year is aiming to shut the club down. All of you good little soldiers in Prince's army should think about this. OF COURSE we don't want the damned thing shut down, we WANT IT TO BE GREAT, which will never happen if we don't let our voices be heard, be they complimentary or critical. If everyone just hands this club $100 and never says a word, how will it ever improve and realize its potential?

They've said "U tell Us", not "U tell us why we're so fucking great". I've sent supportive and congratulatory comments to them along with some that were not so glowing. Usually, the complimentary ones receive the most attention - or at least get the quickest response.

If NPGMC shuts down, it will be BECAUSE OF THEIR OWN FAILURES, not because of "the whiners" as people around here with a spine have come to be known. More likely, the Club will be back and WILL BE BETTER, at least in part because many of us took the time to fight past the impenetrable Paisley shield and get our concerns addressed - one way or another. Most of these people tried to handle thier issues directly and repeatedly with the Club, to no avail. They didn't quit, and personally, I think instead of blasting some of these people, you should THANK THEM when the 2003 version turns out to be so much better.

And for God's sake, don't knock the idea of people like Sabaisabai and Tom persuing legal action if they get nowhere with the Club. Doesn't PRINCE resolve his disputes like this all the time? Would the faithfull dare to call Him a "complainer"? We learned from the master.

Free the music.

IamTheDJ said:

Great post.

quick note tho, I'm not suing them. I wrote a letter of complaint to their attorney and the BBB.

SensualMelody said:

very true.

its becoming a battle among orgers when really we have no need to hate eachother.

IamTheDJ said:

come on, man. go out and see a movie, read a book, walk your dog...something! you're spending WAY too much time thinking about all this. I can't imagine the time you would spend on it if Prince charged $300 instead of $100. I think then you would be publishing a book: "My Tortured Life As a Member of Prince's fan Club, A Memoir by Mediadarling"

[This message was edited Fri Dec 13 10:45:19 PST 2002 by SensualMelody]

mediadarling whined:

No, we were not. I can't believe that people are still going on about those four titles...

I think it is a good sign that representatives from NPGMC responded to the complaints, even if I don't agree with most of them. The one thing that I agree with is the unclear information that we received. The complainers have very specific complaints, but they are all based on "simple differences in interpretation of words, uninformed assumptions and/or misunderstandings about expectations".

I didn't deceive myself about 2002 NPGMC. I didn't know what 4 CD's we would get, since the agreement did not outline anything specific. The main reason I joined was for the concert access, which I'm very happy about!

I also would have been very disappointed with "Madrid 2 Chicago" and "The Best of ", that's for sure. I'm very happy that we are getting the box set instead, and I think most members are too (the ones I know personally are absolutely in LOVE with their ONA Live! I wish I had mine...).

I hope the bold commentary in the original post does not represent the average complainer's point of view... If you're going to make a legal argument against a company, you'd better become more informed than that. Besides, this is a public site which anyone and their lawyers can read, and see how weak the opponents' case really is.

geminito, speak for yourself. maybe you better get a little "informed" yourself. while you may have joined without seeing one of the ADVERTISEMENTS in the tour book, myself and many many other people joined after seeing that ad.

regardless of whether or not YOU happened to join based on this, it's false advertising, especially since people who joined based on that ad have no recourse for a refund!!!

i agree with you on one thing: i can't believe people are still talking about this detail!!! i'm surprised you didn't add "oh well, let's give it until the end of february when this year's edition ends" - jeez!!! even the club's lawyer (after saying that they did not falsely advertise") admits that "there was one ad which mentioned getting access to four titles, but this idea was changed." uh, ok...so let's say that you see an ad for a sweet deal on a pc, and you order one, and when it arrives, they gave you a mac because they thought you would like it better. and then the best part is that they have the gall to say they didn't falsely advertise...mind-numbing, really.

Before I start, let me say that I am not a P basher, or a P-can do no wrong guy. I try in my life to be be honest and fair in all situations, and I'm just gonna give this a good rational look:

According to the info I have recieved from the club, they only promised "4 NEW cd's for 2002" and various "exclusive" thing for members. Looking at the basics of the agreement, I'd have to say that NPGMC has fulfilled its end of the bargain. They way they have done it is not very professional and loving of a supposed loyal fan base. I say that because the promise was purposely made vague and that approach has been followed since the chat that was supposed to discuss (not dictate) the changes for year 2. Oh well, I agreed to those terms so I won't get P.O.ed over it, but as a rational guy looking at the value of my $100, this is what I see...


***4 "new" cd's---the box set and ONA "demo" (actually 5 cd's if you count the duplicate). The value for these CD's are approximately $50, since the same 4 CD's will be in stores in less than 2 weeks.

***rights to buy members only tix for $125, with potential possibilty for soundcheck and afterparty access (not all were free for members, and non-members were also told of the aftershow). Non-members could get similar tix (the row behind members) for $85 (concert) and $25 (afterparty), but with no access to soundcheck.

***rights to purchase a limited number of $250 Celebration passes for what everyone hailed as an incredible week of music. Non-members could only attend if on a ticket purchased by a member.

***rights to purchase merchandise that non members can only obtain at the concerts.

In total, I paid $235 for: 4 CD's, a concert and afterparty ticket (soundcheck was cut very short by tornado in area), and 2 copies of the "days of wild" single. For $160, a non-member could have had the 4CD's, concert ticket (one row behind me) and afterparty ticket.


Is this value for my $100??? For some, it may well be more than worth their money. For me, I'm somewhat torn on this. On one hand, I can't complain that NPGMC really defrauded me, as I had access to the things it promised. On the other hand, I'm disappointed with the ambiguous nature NPGMC has taken, and "pay for the rights to pay more" aspect of the club. Being a member shouldn't mean being price gouged and subject to "Prince/legal double-speak" on the benefits of membership, since WE are the ones who have been loyal for 20 plus years.

That being said...I'm so torn on this, that IF there is a club for 2003, I will have to see clear benefits to being a member, before I even consider joining again. As it stands now, if 2003 is a repeat of 2002..all things being equal, I would not rejoin and enjoy similar benefits as many members, but for approximately $75 cheaper. If the club makes it benefits THE MUSIC, as most members were expecting, then I'm game, as the music is what I joined the club for.

I pray that Prince, or whomever at NPGMC is running the show, come to realize that they must do a better job in making the club a place that rewards us die-hard appreciators of his music, not a place to alienate those who love him most with what has transpired.

Shorty said:[quote]

IamTheDJ said:

I never said it was vandetta, nor personal, simply bullshit.



I don't think most are. I know I'm not.



I guess the "soldier" comment was bit over the top, and I apologize. That's really just a reactionary comment from reading some articulate, succint and specific criticism being labled as "whining" or percieved as a "lack of support" - that, and having taken a few blasts from some of the Club's more ardent defenders who seem to think I've attacked them or Prince personally.

Again, after reading it, I can see that the soldier comment was kinda rude. I speak of a few extremists, especially ones who will blame others if NPGMC folds tent.



Neither do I, but apparently some folks do.



i wasn't speaking of the PUBLIC testimonials. i was referring to e-mails sent to me directly from them. They got back to me REAL quick when they needed my credit card number and when I thanked them for 2 great shows in Atlanta.




I agree wholeheartedly. I posted my letter to them here a few weeks ago, one that was, from all accounts here, polite, constructive and direct; in some cases even complimentary. I NEVER came close to saying they sucked.





Like I said, it might be if it forces the Club to take their customers a little more seriously and make it a better experience for everyone next year...even yourself!



So? Some things aren't about the money, not that $100 doesn't have meaning for some, including myself. I personally expect better from a club that touts "family", truth", "community" and "honesty"..."love4oneanother", if you will.

I'm not suing anybody, nor filing any complaints. I DO think it's a bit lame to count a 3cd set as numbers 2, 3 and 4 for the year.

Free the music

It's ridiculous to pay US$100 for 4 CD's, so I don't buy the argument that people joined the club just for 4 CD's. Especially after The Rainbow Children in last year's club, which was not exclusive and I'm sure we all bought it in retail even though we also downloaded it.

Did people expect "The Best of " to be an exclusive CD?? Why would fans want exclusive rights to a greatest hits CD?? Madness.

If you paid $100 hoping for exclusive CD's, then you were fooled. Plain and simple. Stop dreaming, kids.

SensualMelody said:

They heard the complaints in DETAIL ages ago. They chose not to respond to them until the BBB was notified & then had a law firm representing them reply. Again, I don't think that this law firm handles all of the customer service complaints? I'd be pretty upset if I spent 3 years on my law degree only to answer questions like "When do we get our CDs?"



Where was it this year? How much more clear can it be? The club, in an advertisement designed to get members to join for 2002, named four specific CDs we would be getting. And it was in English.



Only now? That's not really painting them in the best light, is it? Then again, who says they should be? What it will hopefully do is show them that not everyone is going to let Prince screw them over & then beg for more of the same anymore.



More likely, they're changing the wording even more so they look less guilty for what they pulled this year.



You & me both.



I would have been perfectly happy if I had gotten the four CDs I was led to believe I'd be receiving. I'd have then bought ONA...Live in stores like any other fan. Of course I didn't want the club to suck so badly - who wants to throw away $100?

SensualMelody said:[quote][quote]

IamTheDJ said:

yeah. I apologized for that blast. I'm talking about a very small group of people here, and it runs deeper than this subject.

Very cool post, Codshort. I've always found you to be rational and level headed about any subject. We had a nice exchange about race relations once.

If nothing else, all this fuss breathed some f**king life into a forum that was on life support.



Free the music.

geminito said:

No one dreamed that advertisement, sorry. We were told we were getting four specific CDs. The Best of was thought to be remasters of his best tracks, along the lines of 1999 TNM (how good or bad an idea that is, we're not sure). Xenophobia - we know what that is, ONA put many of us to sleep at times, made us smile at others, & The Last December could very well have been the early title for a planned live album. But it's clear there is no leading some sheep astray.

Thanx DJ (Herb)... Unfortunately, this topic touches on two of most of our passions...Prince & our money. That leads people to get overly upset about things. You know me, I try to see all sides before I come to a conclusion. I'm realy trying on this, but it's hard.

Shoot, man you know I love you anyway.
Just messin' with ya'
You can call me anything...well not ANYTHING!
VCR ready???

Shorty said:

I think you are correct in stating that their are more satisfied customers than not. Unfortunately, when people are happy about something they don't stip up the pot and talk about how happy you are. Just wanted to remention to those that are happy, it's not all negative... even if that is what you tend to see/read most.

One
of
the
good
guys
now
understands
Prince's
game

chrisr@startribune.com

thanks
Chris

codshort said:

Hi Codshort, I respect your entire 'level headed' post here. The one thing I'd like to bring up/point out is: How likely is it that you would have been able to get that 1st row right behind NPGMC?? How many years have I attempted to purchase P tickets and been completely shut out in a sell out, or in the nose bleed sections because I couldn't stand in line for 2 days??

Just a thought...

Lets throw everything in a big pot & boil the complainta down. Get rid of all the fat & gristle & what do we end up with:
A - people are pissed at the NPGMC because they didn't get the 3 announced cds
or
B - people are pissed at the NPGMC because the 3 of the 4 cds they got went on public sale soon after they got their copy & that all 4 cds were not exclusive in the end.

If you lean towards A maybe you ought to take a good long look at the 3 announced titles & really think about what they might have been - a jazz cd, a greatest hits cd & a live cd. A jazz cd sounds interesting but who needs a greatest hits cd? With Best of Prince & The Hits cds I've got 4 greatest hits cds already. And is one cd enough to capture the Prince experience live? It would have fallen short.

If you lean towards B well then you are just plain greedy that you don't want to share the music.

MzCadillacLady said:

Very valid point, MzCadillacLady. I likely wouldn't have gotten seats that good. However, seeing that this years tour took place in the smallest venues Prince has played in since the early 80's, there were not many bad (nosebleed)seats as many of us USED to get. Had I gotten the cheapest tix for ONA Live top row balcony, I still would have been closer than any previous concert (of his) Ive been to. This benefit would have been awesome during the stadium tour years, this year not so much. Also, don't you think that the $40 difference in ticket prices makes up for the seat location and/or access to a soundcheck?

C pissed at the sarcastic comments and treatment
D pissed at Prince trying to shut down thier website and now are repaying him
E pissed at the phoney misleading snake-oil salesmanship on the tourbooks/websites/fake pr releases.



hail to the hypno-toad

codshort said:

Yes, I agree this would have been AWESOME back in the stadium days!!!

Well, here in Chicago, we had to purchase through a Tixetmaster pre-sale with a password which was supposed to only have been given to members. I hit that server as soon as the sale opened. They offered 3 levels of pricing $125 for front and center; $85 for floor and first rows of balcony and $65 for other seats. The $125 tickets were not for members only, but instead for whoever got there first and paid that front and center price.

I might also add, that even though I hit that site as soon as the sale opened... ALL choice seating was gone. So, during the soundcheck he listened to our comments about where we were sitting and changed it for future shows. The one thing I have to think about is this; it seems that front & center is always more expensive for any artists show. Would it have been nice to get a cheaper rate? Yeah, sure. But my club sold me the ability to get those 'good' seats, they didn't sell me on cheaper tix (which, would be a nice addition )

So, I paid $85 for my tix and got into the soundcheck.... but was hardly close to the stage.

Oh well, just some thoughts...
[This message was edited Fri Dec 13 16:36:23 PST 2002 by MzCadillacLady]

MzCadillacLady said:

Just curious, when you found yourself jammed up for the good seats and through the ticket buying process, did anyone (here or anywhere else) give you any flack for being pissed? - or about expressing your disatisfaction at the soundcheck? After all, some could argue that the Club only promises THE OPPORTUNITY to purchase, etc...

You see where I'm going with this...

MzCadillacLady said:

ure from chi??? SOUTH SIDE!!! I grew up on 79th st...

Yeah, the Chicago ticket sale ended up being a mess to say the least. Here in Dallas (where I now reside), our sale was through NPGMC's website, and there were no pricing options for members except the $125 tickets. If I'm not mistaken (somebody correct me if I'm wrong), members tix were the only $125 tickets. We took up maybe 9 rows (4 in the pit, 5 on the floor) in an arena the size of the Riviera. The balconies were the closest Ive seen for a P concert. I'd have gladly paid less than the $125 for a ticket, but didn't have that option. Our soundcheck was pretty much cancelled due to a tornado siren going off, but some members did get a brief chance to check the band out warming up. He promised to make up for it at the aftershow, which he did.

I guess my point on the prices is that as a member, I shouldn't have to pay any additional money for the rights to buy the most expensive tickets in the house, or to purchase Celebration tickets. The excess $50 of the membership should not be tied to getting the chance to get up close. If it must be done this way, present it in a honest fashion and give us an option..."would you pay $25 for a chance to purchase up close tickets or attend a soundcheck?" or "for $25, you can have the rights to purchase a Celebration pass". Don't make it seem as if the seat location and soundcheck are implicitly a benefit of membership. Its not a benefit, since we ended up paying for it, some of us doubly in higher ticket prices and the excess price of membership. In essence, my concert and afterparty ticket cost me $175...almost triple any price I've ever paid for a ticket to a concert. Now I love P's music, but DANGGG!!! Those who didn't get a concert, ended up paying $25 a CD, which is way more than the highest CD retailer you can find. Membership costs should provide every member with the same thing for their money, and the extras should be "perks" for membership, not a cost to every member regardless of whether they have the opportunity to use them.

I guess it all comes down to what value is placed on up-front tickets and/or soundchecks for each individual. For me, neither really has much value, as I could care less about meeting (or talking to) Lil man, or being in the 1st row of his concert, As long as I'm not in the nosebleeds, I'm cool. I'm into him (and the club) because of the music, and on the music end, year 2 of NPGMC, came up quite short. Taking into account music only, a concert, aftershow and box set (of the same) are not worth $235 TO ME. For some, it may be more than worth it. It's all up to the individual.

For me, Year 3 needs to be more about providing us with more music and a better value for being a member, not more opportunities to spend more for incidental perks, that I have little to no use for. Obviously, it hasn't had as much value for many others, so it's something the club really needs to work on.

Hmmm...

Yes, yes. Funny my feelings haven't changed since receiving the box set.

See, the response was the basic drivel. I’ve worked for banks and other corporations that pretty much quote the same exact words when they don’t want to be sued for breach of contract.

NPGMC denies any allegations of false, misleading or deceptive practices relevant to NPGMC advertising, memberships or offerings. Contrary to the recent complaints, since its inception in February 2001, NPGMC has provided thousands of satisfied Prince fans with premiere and direct access to Prince’s music, concerts, special events and merchandise for a nominal membership fee of $100.00. NPGMC has also been forthright and truthful about the benefits and limitations of the membership on its website, the primary and official vehicle for communication with potential and current members.

Yes, NPGMC retains the right to rewrite and redefine it's commitments. Of course that is quite humorous since we don't reserve the right to say: "I'm not satisfied with this years membership. May I have a prorated refund please?"

Don't you just love how they respond as if they were the victim.

Relevant to the concert perks, each NPGMC member received:
*Access to purchase any 2002 concert tickets two days before the general public.
*VIP seating at the concert (within the first fifteen rows).
*Admittance to the pre-concert sound check.
*VIP access to the concert after-party.

The nearest concert would have cost me approximately 500.00 dollars (or more) to attend. More encompasses time off from work, travel expense, hotel room in New York, two tickets, meals, alcohol at the after party, cab fare...

Moreover, this year, NPGMC members were the only ones who were entitled to confirmed tickets for the seven night Xenophobia concert celebration that took place at Prince’s own Paisley Park studios in Chanhassen, which included hundreds of hours of exclusive live performances with a variety of highly talented musicians.

Prince a Celebration. Hmmm... 250 x 2. Plane, train, or gas? Hotel, meals, cab fare, and souvenirs. The pet sitters, time missed from work for both of us.

In fact, many members join solely for the access to the premiere concert tickets, and other special offerings like the sound checks, where NPGMC members have the opportunity to interact with Prince in an intimate group with other members, make song requests for the concert, and listen to Prince practice.

Wow, that’s one hell of an assumption since many of us joined for the music. Oops, now I’m assuming.

In an effort to clear up any assumptions and misunderstandings, we have responded to each issue in turn. First, NPGMC never represented on the website, the primary communication vehicle to NPGMC members, that the music benefit would 4 separate, individually shipped CDs. The NPGMC website stated “Each 2002 member will receive at least 4 new Prince CDs in the mail from Paisley Park b4 the end of 2002.”

That was not the original wording.I swear it has been changed. Such terms as “exclusive” and “new” were found in the language. Oh, and let us remind you, new refers to this membership year. Thus, though Case of You, Here on Earth, One Night Alone, and You're gonna C Me WERE available during 2001's membership, it doesn't apply to our newly restructured wording. What about the exclusive downloads?

So, who's playing who here? It's funny how the beast Prince fought so hard to free himself from, is
re-establishing itself with him at the controls.

And I thought he wanted to be superior.

MzCadillacLady said:

Since I live in the same city as Codshort I would like to add a little something to this. It's very likely to get the seats right behind the NPGMC members here in Dallas without stressing. I have attended all of P's concert here since the 80's and 4 of those concerts I got front row. I didn't have a hard time at all. I remember one concert in '97 the lady beside me decided to attend that day and got front row seats. The worst seats I ever got was when I went through NPGMC. Now I'm not saying they were bad seats just further then the other times.

Much Love,
LoLinex

geminito said:

But, the box set was coming out anyway, so you would've still received it (like the rest of the world). You would've just had to pay extra for it. The other titles we are now NOT getting at all! I agree with most of the so-called "complainers"! I felt rather duped by this whole "4 CDs" thing, and I, like the rest of them, don't want to see the club shut down. Just made better, or at the very least, things communicated much more clearly! And it seems, based on this letter, that that will happen with next year's version! That's all we want...that and Xenophobia!

The one thing I will say with absolute praise about this year's membership is the Celebration!! Every damn time I listen to the boot (which Prince himself should've put out to the members ONLY) I have very good memories. That part he pretty much did right!

Well at least this thread got people talking - and yes, I'm still really happy with my Music Club membership. Hope the Music Club will be back very soon - wonder what's happening!!!

geminito said:

It was not a foolish wish to receive 4 exclusive CDs. Look at year one: probably about 4 CDs worth of exclusive music (filesharing was not Prince's fault). Towards the end of the year NPGMC asked as whether we would prefer such songs on regular CDs. The implication was that we would get the same deal but on CDs rather than as downloads.

Year One's membership was about music, and it delivered in downloads. It set a precedent for year Two, which Prince has sadly failed to meet.

Just to clarify my position on the club: I for one don't want it shut down. I would rather they picked up their act.
I also will not be filing a complaint, unless my shipment never comes and NPGMC won't rectify it. I also plan to join next year, for the purpose of going to the Celebration. I've read enough glowing reports of his tour this year, and it's been ten years since I've seen him play, so I'm going to do something about it.