I have noticed some people on this site saying that we (as members) should have read the "fine print" better so that we wouldn't have been dissapointed in this year's "club".

In other words: some people here think that prince has fullfilled his promise, his contractual obligation, with the release of ONA live, because of some unspecified claims that the "fine print" doesn't say anything specific in terms of what the "club" owes its members for joining and paying 100 bucks..

Well, I got news for all y'all...

The Club deleted all the relevant information concerning their obligations of this year from their website. But I and many others know what has been promised at the beginning of this year and throughout the year.

Moreover "fine print" is not just what is written in the formal club membership agreement to which you have to agree when you join, but also what is explicitly promised on their advertising webpages. They deleted that offer... but only now...


The "fine print" made the promises of the club very clear:

1) the club is exclusive, meaning members only.

2) we get at least 4 new cd's throughout the year, including live shows, piano stuff, instrumental music, and much more, including downloads.

This really means albums and not whether an album consist of 1 or 2 or 3 actual discs. It also means no old, already released, material, whether through last years club or before. And it means that the "club" is (better: "was", since nothing has happened after May) obligated to deliver this music throughout the year. The promise does not say one cd at the beginning and one at the end after 8 months of waiting, but it says releases during the entire year.

3) The club was supposed to give members exclusive concert "perks",

However Prince didn't visit Spain and Australia and some US States/ areas. The arrangements made for soundchecks, ticket prices and acces to aftershows that did take place also varied widely this year; from completely free acces for both member as guest to the aftershow to an obligatory 100 extra dollars for both member as guest.
The "Club" didn't give members worldwide the equal chance of acces to (after) shows.

The club neither asked members for reasonable prices, since prices for one "exclusive" ticket were generally almost as expensive or even more expensive than the membership itself. Moreover the exact height of the exessive prices for his shows were generally not made public (not even to the members) a few days before the start of the sale or just on the actual sale of the tickets. As an aspiring member you couldn't join on the actual date of sale of the tickets, so one had to take the chance before in order to be sure one was entitled to "exclusive" concert "perks".
Therefore most members joined with a dilemma in their minds, because they wanted the perks, but were held in the dark by the "club" untill the last moment about the actual additional price they had to pay for their "perks".(which means an EXTRA)

And then their servers broke down...

this happened several times this years, causing numerous members who paid their 100$ not to be able to purchase tickets through the site and thus ended up sitting all the way back and up in the venue of the concert... as a "member"...


This is just a short oversight of what has NOT gone RIGHT this year ...

The "club" has broken many promises that were explicitly made at the beginning (a principio) of this year and throughout this year untill now. Only now they deleted every explicit promise made.

But I and many others know that at the beginning of this year Prince made a choice and decide to offer his fans a CONTRACT... a COVENANT... an AGREEMENT.

Contracts work only on the basis of one fundamental PRINCiple... which always comes FIRST and that is that promises must/will be kept....

or in latin: "pacta sunt servanda".


but Prince and his "club"?

well we all know now about Prince and CONtracts.
if you didn't ... you know now.

-
[This message was edited Fri Dec 6 8:51:32 PST 2002 by Abrazo]
[This message was edited Wed Dec 18 1:45:00 PST 2002 by Abrazo]

I'm not trying to take away from your thread Abrazo...all very good points.
But isn't it odd with all the unreleased music he has in the vault and such, that we barely see any of it...?

It's great that he wants to hit us with new music and the new sound, but i can count up to two-hundred songs that would be killer downloads, or would make a killa Crystal Ball II CD. It wouldn't even have to be an official CD with printing, just some maxell CD-R's with a bunch of outtakes.
Yeah, i'll admit it, i've heard many of them on boots, mostly poor to OK quality. I'd gladly pay hundred$ for better versions of half the vault songs, the concerts, the after-shows, the videos, an extended version album, etc.
I'm not really bitching about it, i just don't understand why the faucet is still just dripping when i thought the tub would be overflowing by now.

Now, where's the beef we've hearing about for the last 10 years? Was there a plan, or was it just to hear yourself whine? And no, i'm not here to hear myself bitch, i want the music, nothing more. I don't want to pay the boots guy, i want to pay the npg for their hard work and inspiration.

Ok, I have to make some comments... I am tired of the 'club sucks' postings so let me just point out a few things. I have been a member since the very beginning of year one.

My first point is downloads vs. CDs. Based on overwhelming CUSTOMER FEEDBACK (Year one live club chat, e-males... etc.) the club changed it's download model to CD delivery. On top of that... NPGMC changed it's download format throughout the year based on CUSTOMER FEEDBACK. If you were around for early year one they had a proprietary player which was difficult to use, so they moved to MP3 format.

Now for my personal feeling on this topic. Personally, I prefer downloads for a few reasons. 1.) it is easy for NPGMC to post an electronic file without having to worry about packaging and distribution, other than putting up more servers etc... to support the download site. With that said, i am not surprised AT ALL that we have issues with CD delivery. P is a perfectionist and is not going to put out a CD-R with a few songs on it... he is going to make sure it is a properly packaged asset. We all should know that this is a long process and involves time, resources, money and various poeple/groups/ So.. could they have added some more downloads for us? Sure, but were members going to cry because they couldn't access the files? sure.

My second point is Concert Ticket purchases. Some of us seem to forget that NPGMC had an agreement with Ticketmaster to purchase P tickets at a 'preslae'. Well, this was an absolutely horrible process and there were NO members in the first five rows for the Chicago ONA concent I attended. So, BASED ON CUSTOMER FEEDBACK, NPGMC changed the process to allow members the opportunity to get choice seating for all remaining shows of the year.

My overriding point on this post is this. I am NOT a Prince lemming (as someone has posted elsewhere), but NPGMC has always listened to it's consumers and implemented changes based on overwhelming customer feedback. I would much rather spend my money with a company/service which listens to it's customers and implements changes based on that listening. It also goes to say that ANY COMPANY who changes a process will encounter glitches with the new process. I work for a HUGE hardware/software company who has been around for 100 years and we STILL have glitches when we change a process, even with all the knowledge we have from the past 100 years. NPGMC is learning with us, noone is perfect, but if they make changes based on their customers, we will be able to make this club work for us.

Now, get to work and start providing constructive customer feedback to NPGMC!

Thanks

Well said, Abrazo!

True

they
have
alot
2
hide
from
these
days

did
they
really
expect
2
succeed
in
rooking
everyone

Well put Abrazo.

The problem with the club this year is that from the beginning, many members were skeptical after year one and the CB fiaso. Thus, many members asked detailed questions at the beginning of the year to make sure that the promise of "at least four CDs" would not wind up meaning that Prince would give us "exactly" four CDs and then release these same CDs to retail one month later at half the price we were charged.

In fact, this is exactly what has happened.

In '98, I saw the writing on the wall and cancelled my CB order after months of waiting. In the end, I got the 4CDs sooner than most people received their packages from NEWFUNK, and I only paid $29.95! The only thing I didn't get was Kamasutra (which I already had bought earlier that year from NEWFUNK) and the War cassette.

This time around, I decided to give him one more chance, and all I have gotten is the ONA CD, which may or may not be included in the ONA Live retail release. In either event, the ONA Live release will be available for approx. $40-50, which means that we are being charged $50 for the ONA CD. (Of course, considering the time value of money, we are actually paying MORE than $100.)

Prince owes us more music, it's that simple. Arguing that some of us received "perks" does not cut it.

BanishedBrian said:

indeed, but it won't happen.

mrchristian said:

indeed quite odd... could mean that he is full of shit about his vault.

hmm.. allow me to correct my spelling... allthough prince acts like he is the principal, it really is all about the principle.

MzCadillacLady said:

quess how come so many peopl claim the club sucks... perhabs because it does.


not quite and certainly not this year.


well prince implemented some changes this year. in fact he changed so much that nothing is left from his original promiss.


glitches are the companies responisbility, not the customers. if they say they can do business the way they offer it, they better do it when they they take thousands people their money.


positive feedabck has never made any sense. prince will do whatever the fuck he wants to do. He has never shown himself to be any different. Contracts or not, he just only does what HE wants.

Haystack said:

oh I don't know... but this mess makes me feel so dissapointed that I could better leave it to someone else.

Abrazo said:

I wish it was that, but we've seen quite a bit of his vault music on boots, so we know he has quite a few songs in his back catalog. No i think he has an agenda--his message for the masses-- to get out and releasing anything from the past may "hamper" that new message...translation: the new religious Prince doesn't want anything to do with his old image and sexuality.
[This message was edited Tue Dec 10 9:44:51 PST 2002 by mrchristian]

mrchristian said:

I'm sorry mrchristian. In retrospective I thought it was better not to say all that I said.But I think prince could really interact with his fanbase in a more positive and relax way than he has done so far,. It would take a positive attitude from the fans too, but if only he could keep a promiss and do something abut those super high prices. That way it is more easy for everybody and therefore more room for fun. That's what I have been missing the most this year... simple fun.

-
[This message was edited Mon Dec 9 15:49:19 PST 2002 by Abrazo]

The sad thing is that NPGMC and Prince think that they can change time so that they are "covered". The reality is quite different. People will have saved copies of everything, file complaints with the BBB and their credit card companies. Refunds/charge backs will be granted. Not everyone will chose to do this, but there will still be many.

It is a shame that he choses to live the way he does. I do not go so far as to say he is selfish and a bastard. That is really not his nature. He is really a kind person (yes, I feel your flames, but read on...), he just is used to doing anything he wants. Anything. There is no one to tell him differently and he wouldn''t listen anyway. I guess that is the price you pay for complete freedom. We all wanted him to have it - now he does. I am not mad. I am actually happy for him. I would just do a few things different if I were him.

Prince should evaluate his life. Most people in this world agree that Prince is the best performer/musician. Everyone also says that there are not many artists who do what Prince does for his fans (in terms of aftershows, Paisley parties, the celebrations, etc.) And they are right, no one is like that. That is where Prince's love for his fans really shines through. But the other side of that beautiful coin is the fans themselves. It is also true that there are no fans like Prince fans. They would stand in a 4 ft. high pile of shit in 10 degree weather just to be part of a special Prince moment - even if only for 5 mins. And there is no doubt that Prince is grateful for those fans' loyalty. I know he is. But he also loves to tease. This is where I think Prince goes wrong. He will make you stand outside as long as possible just to build up the moment. Taunt you with possible song titles for release. The list goes on and on. He thrives on his fans interaction to this. He takes his fans for granted now.

For being about the only person on this planet to have a vault/wealth of material that he has, it is pretty stupid to let it rot. It would be like you spending years mastering the art of painting, creating several beautiful paintings per day and wrapping them up in garbage bags and throwing them in the attic. Kind of pointless. Yes, it is his choice. Yes, they are his to do with. But then he should just shut the fuck up about them already. Why talk about them? Why even tease? I have come to accept the fact that Prince will not release any vault material. He never intended to. They are just old working ideas that never panned out for him. They are past the moment. That is why he does not release them. I'm fine with that. I will just keep my bootlegs and keep remastering and refining them. Moving my studio to digital has opened so many doors the last 5 years that I almost don't even need them to be released. Most songs are now to the point where they are close enough to the quality that he has on his own master anyways - and they are un-edited.

Most of you probably will disagree with me right now about a lot of what I wrote - primarily that Prince is really not selfish and not intentionally a bastard. If think about what I wrote, it is true. This does not excuse him for trying to renig on the club promises. Yes, I am still pissed about that. I am just saying that I do not think he means to do it. It is more of a by-product of doing everything your way and not having to be accountable for anything. Oh, and also because the moment has past and he has moved on to other things. Look at the ONA tour now. Where is Xenophobia? Notice how it is fading...

Of course, Prince could send us more to make up for this year's membership. I would not count on that happening before the club ends though. If it were me, I would make Xenophobia or some other album a club download. That he could still deliver.

Wow
your
1st
post
was
a
good
one

i
agree

+
he
needs
2
replace
the
clubs
management

Abrazo said:

I totally agree.

It's all about the PRINCiple. The "club" hides from their own "fine print"

from
the
looks
of
the
closed
website

Thats
not
all
they
r
hiding
from

1) the club is exclusive, meaning members only.
2) we get at least 4 new cd's throughout the year, .....

-----

When did you buy your ONA-Live-CD?? Last year? in my experience, the cd offers music of concerts taking part the last half year - prince never before made a live-cd - so this is a NEW CD!!!

-----

3) The club was supposed to give members exclusive concert "perks" .....

-----

I was sitting twice in the 2 row!! if this isn't exclusive??
I was at 2 soundchecks - if this isn't exclusive??
I was at 2 afterpartys where prince and the band also have been - dancing with us - talking to us - if this isn't exclusive???

-----

However Prince didn't visit Spain and Australia and some US States/ areas .....

-----

So you wanted prince to play in every fans living room, or what?? its the normal way of a concert tour, that they play in some citys and not in erery village on this earth

i went from austria to berlin by flight and from austria to zurich by car - for sure it would have been nicer if he had played in igls (its a village near innsbruck with 800 inhabitants) - but to be honest - when i entered the club i didn't hoped for a prince concert in the front of my villages church - i knew i would have to take a longer way to see him!

how could you think of concerts in every fams hometown! i mean are you 3 years old and believe in santa claus???
[This message was edited Mon Dec 16 12:17:38 PST 2002 by netzverwalter]

netzverwalter said:

well how do you do netzveralter?
please... you don't have to scream, so you can leave out the exclamation marks. ...

To answer your question I haven't received my Ona live yet, but I paid for it at the beginning of this year...

And the fact is that ONA live is old MUSIC on a new CD.
The fact that prince never released a live album before doesn't negate that.

But the fact that he didn't release this cd earlier in the year to the club exclusively (as was definitly "promised") and not even first (as was later "promised") makes this cd just a waste of my membership money, since I can buy it already for much cheaper prices outside the club.

Now hou you like that? still love your "club"?


---


YOU were sitting there. YOU were lucky enough. Many, many members, including myself, did NOT get that same "oppurtunity."


YOU were at 2 soundchecks. YOU were lucky enough. Many, many members, including myself, did NOT get that same "oppurtunity."

YOU were sitting there. YOU were at 2 afterparties. YOU were lucky enough. Many, many members, including myself, did NOT get that same "oppurtunity." Prince often demande 100$ tickets for "members"to get in the aftershow.

Now that is NOT exclusive.




I didn't say that. Thank you very much.


when Prince announces a WORLD tour ( like he did last year, but didn't come through at all) and normally always used to play in certain cities, including cities in Spain, then it is not unreasonable to expect him to that again, defintly considering that he has members there and in Australia who PAID for those "excluisve perks" which they of course did NOT get.



well YOU happarantly had the oppurtunity to do just that. Don't you think that it is not the normal thing to do for anybody who doesn't mean have the time and means as You?


are you a dumbass?

I didn't say that prince had to play in "every fams hometown". Thank you very much again.

Abrazo said:

4 new CD's: You're just making this stuff up ! They never said there would be 4 seperate albums ! Although that was what I assumed too, but ASSUMED is the key word here!!

Downloads: There were 2. Not many, but you can't say you got none !

Releases during the year: Can mean whenever. You can have no real complaint there either !

I'm not happy with the live CD either, but all this moaning is getting ridiculous. My ONA...live box was damadged, and they've said they're sending me a new one! That's good service in my opinion. And if they're are sending out new boxes to people, maybe they're sending out other stuff too !?

james said:

no that is not an assumption, because
1) "NEW" implies strongly that it is new music on a new album from Prince.

2)The npgmc never said explictly that it just were 4 compact disc either, so "albums"is a more reasonable interpretation, especially considering the price of 100$ , which is a ridiculous one if you are only getting 4 discs.

3) if it really would only mean 4 compact disc (and thus not necessarily 4 albums) 4 cd's could just as well could mean 4 times ONA piano... or 4 cd-r's, since those are also "NEW" cd's.

4) the advertisemnt in the tourbook clearly said that 4 separate albums would be send to members, IF you join. Clearly enticing people to pay 100$ or be without the NEW music/ albums.

5) any reasonably made assumptions by the consumer based on the information and the offer the company (with money and professional resources) are the sole risk of the company. They made the offfer, they have to AND can make sure that the offer is worded clearly enough to eman what they want.


oh please... even if you are serious that is still a joke. Beside 'Silicon' was sold last year already and '1+1+1=3' was just a 2minute shitty ass promo.



of course you can, because when the company promises "throughout" or "during" the year it reasonably means a member can expect about 1 cd every season. that's not a strange interpretation, but the closest one to the meaning of the word "throughout"
Nobody can honestly say that paying 100$ in january in advanceshould only make you entitled to receive the cd's you paid for almost 1 year later. Think about the interest npgmc made on all that money in advance



look who is moaning now?
just wait and see if you get your new box.


-
[This message was edited Tue Dec 17 6:40:25 PST 2002 by Abrazo]

Well, I don't think you're arguement about 4 Albums as apposed to 4 CD's (which is what they promised) would stand up in court ! Or the "throughout the year" bit.
But anyway, what about the 4 CD's advertised in the tour book !? Would you have been happier with them ?

The Best of "Symbol" - New music ? No. And even if it was out-takes from "Symbol" albums, would you really want it ? I wouldn't. The albums were bad enough !

Last December - What would this be ? An extended "Beautiful Experience" style version ? I certainly wouldn't count that as a whole album ! OK song, but please !!

Madrid 2 Chicago - Shit title track, Breathe is OK. But at least this would be an Album of new (apart from 2 tracks!) music !

Xenaphobia - I'd like to have this one !

Basically 2 albums worth having, still not the 4, and I'd rather have ONA than any of these anyway.

james said:

I would rather have symbol outtakes album than a live album

Personally, I would rather have a re-recorded version of Take me with U, than the live version, so if the best of O+>, was re-ecorded hits, I say bring it on (even with Dougie Fresh ).

Do we know that The last December is a remix album? I always felt it sounded like a live ONA album. Probably an original idea that morphed into ONA Live!

If that was the case, I would have loved it to have been part, but not ALL of the package.

james said:

well debate my arguments then!


that is ultimately all a matter of opinion.

Sidewinder said:

Btw I thought this was an excellent post.
Describes everything very well ... It's just that I don't agree with the statement/opnion that Prince doesn't mean to do what he is doing... I think he does.