The great thing about his music is that it is so multidimensional. All of the interpretations are accurate. It is like poetry.

Rockability said:

I also feel as if some rules are bent to accomodate individuals who believe in the Watchtower. How can someone be sexually active for years with many partners, then deciding they've found the 'right' one to settle down with be 'right' in God's eyes? What about the destruction they've caused in their search?
Does this mean we can let loose and go wild and engage in activities that "... works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom." -Galatians 5:19-21.
..... until we are ready to settle down and then decide it's time to go to God after we've had our fun?
[Edited 9/5/04 5:20am]

Rockability said:

The reason for quoting scripture is because it is the authoritative word, God’s word. Jesus Christ often referred to scriptures when setting things straight. (Matthew 4:4, 7) “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.” –2 Timothy 3:16, 17.

The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, [stau·ros´], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.

The book The Non-Christian Cross, by J. D. Parsons (London, 1896), says: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross. . . . It is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as ‘cross’ when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting ‘cross’ in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape.”

Thus the weight of the evidence indicates that Jesus died on an upright stake and not on the traditional cross.

Two references neither from the Watchtower.

If I believed my faith wasn’t the right one, why would I bother? Not arrogance, common sense.

Vital said:

I’m interested to know what you think these “rules” are? The Bible (the authority) does condemn fornication as you have rightly pointed it causes destruction. As we see in society the lifestyle of having many sexual partners as we see today is not right in God’s eyes. Sex is only for the sanctity of marriage.

NewSystem said:

Yes, the authority, (the Bible) does condemn fornication. Birth Control is used to prevent conception/birth. In some instances Birth Control pills act like abortion pills on fertilized eggs. So if JW's are having sex without the Biblical intent of using the creative device "cream" as it was meant to be used well, that's just one rule not being followed. God's design did not include artificial birth control so that some could fornicate without producing children.

CandaceS said:

Vital said:

You are misinformed! Birth control pills are HORMONES. They fool the body into thinking it is already pregnant so therefore there is no reason to ripen and release any egg to be available for fertilization. That is why women have cravings for chocolate and get bloated...then when you stop taking the hormone (the same hormone the body makes in abundance during the early stages of pregnancy) then the woman has a period in preparation for the next cycle.
there is no fertilized eggs! Maybe you are thinking of an IUD?

I am a nurse, can you tell?

prodigalfan said:

You have received the same information millions of others have. But ignorance is no excuse of The Law. Read a little further into it. Try doing a search on birth control pills and abortions.

This isn't the forum to discuss this further, so maybe we could bring it over to the Politic & Religion Forum. Before we go who do U think would profit most from women not knowing that life is actually being conceived and then destroyed by birth control pills?
[Edited 9/7/04 19:10pm]
[Edited 9/7/04 19:11pm]
[Edited 9/7/04 19:12pm]

sabaisabai said:

Interesting. Both the Cream and What's My Name references.

But, of course, I think there are dirty (and by that I mean "delightful") interpretations of both. Prince lyrics are what you make of them.

NewSystem said:

Let's assume for the sake of argument that you're correct. My question is then: does it really matter? I mean, getting nailed to an upright stake doesn't seem significantly different from being nailed to a cross. The use of the cross as a Christian symbol would be historically inaccurate, but it's a symbol that's been around for a long time and is quite distinctive. Is it really such a bad thing?

matt said:

Does it really matter? Yes. “God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” –John 4:24.

Your spot on Ben the cross has been around for a long time, long before Jesus Christ! Is it a bad thing? Definitely! Why?

“Various objects, dating from periods long anterior to the Christian era, have been found, marked with crosses of different designs, in almost every part of the old world. India, Syria, Persia and Egypt have all yielded numberless examples . . . The use of the cross as a religious symbol in pre-Christian times and among non-Christian peoples may probably be regarded as almost universal, and in very many cases it was connected with some form of nature worship.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1946), Vol. 6, p. 753.

“The shape of the [two-beamed cross] had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ.”—An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (London, 1962), W. E. Vine, p. 256.

Pagan gods have no place in true worship neither does worship or veneration of symbols.

1 Cor. 10:14: “My beloved ones, flee from idolatry.” (An idol is an image or symbol that is an object of intense devotion, veneration, or worship.)

Ex. 20:4, 5, JB: “You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.” (Notice that God commanded that his people not even make an image before which people would bow down.)

prodigalfan said:

As Im sure you are aware, there are two types of BCP (birth control pills): estrogen/progestin combination pills and progestin only pills (like Orvette, OrthoMicronor and NORQD.) The depo-provera shot and the Norplant implant are also progestin only methods.

The most commonly prescribed pill is the combination pill but the progestin-only pill is still available and used in certain cases where it is the safer choice for the woman (such as nursing mothers, women over 35 who also smoke, and women who have experienced side effects from estrogen such as migraines, nausea, etc)

In the case of combination pills, the estrogen tricks the ovaries into suppressing the monthly release of an egg. In that case, you are correct that there would be no "abortion like" circumstances as there would be no egg released to become fertilized.

HOWEVER --

In the case of progestin-only pills, the possiblity of an egg being released is somewhat higher. Not greatly, but technically more of a possiblity than estrogen/progestin pills.

Besides hopefully suppressing the release of an egg, and unlike the hormone estrogen, the synthetic hormone progestin ALSO causes the uterus to become "inhospitable" to the implantation of a fertililzed egg by thinning the uterine walls - a situation that techinically could be called an 'abortion' of sorts because an already fertilized egg is rendered unable able to implant itself and grow, and would then die.

I am not posting this as any kind of pro-choice nor anti-abortion commentary, nor out of any type of religious stance. I merely wanted to point out that the comment "In some instances Birth Control pills act like abortion pills on fertilized eggs" is NOT misinformed nor is it inaccurate, especially in SOME cases, and moreso when using SOME particular BCPs (progestin only pills or the depo-provera shot or Norplant).

I don't know how "Cream" or the following info got by the Jehovah censor board:


"Birth Control" Pills and Abortion

Physicians across America -- and around the world -- are now confirming that the Pill, IUDs, Depo-Provera and Norplant cause early abortions.

More facts about the Pill, IUDs, Depo-Provera and Norplant:

Again, if you're reading about CHEMICAL ABORTIONS for the first time, this may surprise, or even shock you. Most Americans are not aware that the Pill and other chemical "contraceptives" cause millions of "non-surgical" abortions each year in the early weeks of pregnancy. If you are using the Pill, Depo-Provera or Norplant, you need to know the truth about how these products work.

Most women take these "contraceptives" because they don't want to have a baby. But how many women know they can have BREAKTHROUGH OVULATIONS and become pregnant while using these "contraceptives?" Very few! And how many of these women know that if they become pregnant after a BREAKTHROUGH OVULATION, these "contraceptives" will almost always kill any son or daughter they've conceived?

Most people don't know the real facts about how "contraceptives" work. And because of this lack of knowledge, most women are not aware that they may be having BREAKTHROUGH OVULATIONS, and conceiving children that are killed very early in the pregnancy. Women using these "contraceptives" almost never perceive that they have become pregnant, or that chemicals have killed their tiny baby.
What is Breakthrough Ovulation?

While using the Pill and other chemical "birth control" products, many women's ovaries continue to release eggs. This is called "Breakthrough Ovulation" and it occurs in millions of women each year. Once an egg has been released via ovulation, a woman can become pregnant.

Abortifacients is the medical term for any chemical agent that causes an abortion."

bad
[Edited 9/13/04 20:09pm]

Can anyone tell me what "the Jehovah censor board" is?

mdiver said:

ditto

NewSystem said:

I'm assuming the "cross" issue arose 'cause Jehovah's Witnesses assert that Christ did not die on a cross, while other Bible-related faiths believe He did. I try daily to be a disciple of Christ. I have never used a cross for anything. No wall-hangings on the wall, no necklaces, nothing. Never have wanted to, never will. There are probably countless disciples of Christ around the world who are the same way. Which means, we have been under the impression that Christ was nailed to a cross because it is the word used in the Bible's New Testament. If it was not a cross, this means we've been mistaken due to a translation mistake. Cool. This topic is NOT a LIFE-AND-DEATH matter. Not a big deal. Worshipping God in spirit and in truth is required.... the stake on which Christ was crucified has nothing to do with our worship of Him--unless you are now saying it does? (And no, I don't worship the cross. Some, like the Catholic Church, appear to sometimes.) Thanks for clearing up this translation matter, man. I did not know this about the stake until now.

Butta said:

I agree that "Worshipping God in spirit and truth is required.... the stake on which Christ was crucified has nothing to do with our worship of Him." Although it may appear that some Catholics are worshipping the cross or statutes, they are not. These symbols are merely to be used as a 'reminders' of Christ and the Saints. They prompt the memory to visualize the spiritual word and to remember that Jesus died for us and why we are here. Worshipping any of these items is called "Idolatry" and is strictly forbidden by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church also does not believe in artifical birth control or the use of "Abortifacients" which destroy life at an early stage.

NewSystem said:

I think that the 'Jehovah censor' board is the combination of individuals working on the Watchtower who try to supervise conduct and morals.
.....
The 'Rules' written in the Bible are interpreted by the Watchtower's beliefs and the 'Jehovah censor board.' Sometimes it seems like they are bending the 'Rules." This is why I still believe that the Catholic Church most clearly represents 'the Ideals' that will bring us closer to God.
IMO

I did some surfing on "Jehohvah censor" and "disfellowshipping".

I think Prince is treated as a special case.

mzflash said:

This is typical of society, what people don't know, they make up.

www.watchtower.org/library/jt/index.htm

mzflash said:

"You must not murder."-Exodus 20:14. How do we understand this command? Clearly the part that says "You must not..." followed by "murder" makes it perfectly clear we shouldn't murder.

"You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion."-Exodus: 4,5.

That is crystal clear! If you are trying to justify the use of idols in worship, at best you will be compromising a commandment of God but in reality what you are actually doing is contradicting a commandment of God.

matt said:

Besides the fact that all christian religions believe that idolatry is wrong, If he was shot with a gun everyone would have guns around there necks or if he was stoned people would be wearing rock necklaces. The point is it is not important what they used to kill Jesus, but what is important is the work he did while alive and the fact he died for our sins.

NewSystem said:

Actually, this is Matt. Ben and I just have the same avatar.

Okay, so I know that Jehovah's Witnesses are opposed to things rooted in Paganism. And thus the objection to the cross makes sense if you believe that Christians simply borrowed it from Paganism. (I'm told that there is plenty of credible evidence to support the notion that many people, and not just Jesus, were crucified on a T-shaped cross, but that's another issue.)

So, my next question is... why don't Jehovah's Witnesses object to wedding rings, which have Pagan origins? Or is Prince violating the Jehovah's Witnesses' teachings by wearing a wedding ring?

Vital said:

Could you please send a link to your source on this. I have not read any literature on this at all! Sorry if I don't take your word... looking for the truth here. I don't have any agenda on birth control.
thanks
[Edited 9/20/04 0:20am]

SnowQueen said:

I just had a chance to really read your post here. Are you saying that Progesterone makes the uterus inhospitalable? I know for a fact that you need progesterone to support a pregnancy in the early weeks before the placenta has had a chance to develop. I know of women who have needed to take progesterone suppositories because they have inadequate supply of progesterone and have early miscarriages... the supps help sustain the pg. What you are saying doesn't make sense. Please link a site that can hopefully clear this up.
thanks

prodigalfan said:

Just looked up Progestin on Micromedex, a server used by professional medical providers to look up medications. This is what Micromedex says about Progestin:

"Progestin is a generic term for compounds that prevent
miscarriage in pregnant test animals after oophorectomy, thus
substiting for progesterone. Many pharmacologic progestins are
used for other properties, for example, antiestrogenic effects
on the endometrium. For detailed discussions of compounds
marketed for progestin activity, see the following agent
summaries"

matt said:

Actually there are conflicting ideas as to the origin of the wedding ring. Let us give a few examples: "Originally . . . the ring was a fetter, used to bind the captive bride." (For Richer, for Poorer) "The ring is a relatively modern substitute for the gold coin or other article of value with which a man literally purchased his wife from her father." (The Jewish Wedding Book) "The wedding ring is supposed to be of Roman origin, and to have sprung from the ancient custom of using rings in making agreements." (American Cyclopædia) "Various explanations have been given of the connection of the ring with marriage. It would appear that wedding-rings were worn by the Jews prior to Christian times."-The International Cyclopaedia.

It is thus seen that the precise origin of the wedding ring is uncertain. Even if it were a fact that pagans first used wedding rings, would that rule such out for Christians? Not necessarily. Many of today's articles of clothing and aspects of life originated in pagan lands. The present time divisions of hours, minutes and seconds are based on an early Babylonian system. Yet, there is no objection to a Christian's using these time divisions, for one's doing so does not involve carrying on false religious practices.

Of course, for true Christians concern is greater as regards the use of wedding rings, since this relates, not to minor secular matters, but to the marriage relationship, which the Christian rightly views as sacred before God. Really, the question is not so much whether wedding rings were first used by pagans but whether they were originally used as part of false religious practices and still retain such religious significance. As has been shown, the historical evidence does not allow for any definite conclusion on this. What does the Bible say about the use of rings?

The Bible shows that some of God's servants in the past wore rings, even ones that had special meaning attached to them. Wearing a signet ring could indicate that one had received authority to act in behalf of the ruler who owned it. (Gen. 41:42; Num. 31:50; Esther 8:2, 8; Job 42:11, 12; Luke 15:22) So, while wedding rings are not mentioned, these true worshipers clearly did not scruple against using rings for more than mere adornment.

Some persons say that a wedding ring represents one's unending love and devotion in marriage. The increasing divorce rate in many lands where married persons usually wear a wedding ring proves that this meaning is more imagined than real. Nonetheless, for the majority of persons, including Christians, in lands where wedding rings are common, the ring is an outward indication that the wearer is a married person. In other localities the same point is shown in a different way, such as by a woman's wearing a certain style of clothing.

Of course, a wedding ring is by no means a Christian requirement. One Christian might decide not to wear a wedding ring, because of conscience, personal taste, cost, local custom, or some other reason. Yet another Christian might decide to indicate his married status by means of a wedding ring. Hence, in the final analysis the decision is a personal one, to be made in accord with the conscientious views one holds.

[Flamebait snipped. --Matt]

Here's my worthless opinion on that song:

I agree with the person that said he is using "Cream" to mean something good that rises to the top of the charts...light pop. You know, the good cream rises.

However, he's OBviously going out of his way to make it sound like he's being incredibly bawdy...I guarantee you 99% of casual (and even some hardcore, I'm sure) Prince fans think the song is literally about coming and nothing else. Prince is certainly aware that the song screams sexuality, whether it is technically about sex or not. I mean shit, what happens in the video?

So although I love this song and would be sad to see stuff like this removed from his repertoire, I think it's pretty ridiculous for him to make money off this kind of stuff and pass out Watchtower pamphlets afterwards.
[Edited 9/20/04 18:22pm]
[Edited 9/21/04 1:30am]

prodigalfan said:

Yes, correct. Progestins are synthetic hormones. Progesterone is a hormone produced by the human body.